[Spoilers] Gradius's LoTV Thoughts [Archive]

Gradius

11-14-2015, 11:21 AM

LotV is easily the best game in the SC2 trilogy in my opinion. Not writing a review this time because my only motivation was to raise enough awareness so that the protoss campaign would be the best. But here's some bulletpoint first impressions:

- Amazing graphics!
- Harder campaign than HoTS for sure.
- Mind Controlling the Golden Armada in the first mission was a ballsy move. Good thing the writers retconned a Spear of Adun ship into existence that can wage a war all on its own haha.
- Zeratul just randomly turns into dust when he dies. What?
- Didn't Zeratul say that the Xel'Naga want Kerrigan restored to power, which implies that he talked to Xel'Naga. So how did he not know they were dead? Ouros would have known and wouldn't have omitted that information.
- Selendis looks nothing like she does in Wings of Liberty.
- I thought the spear of adun was buried in a random spot according to the short stories, not literally placed under the conclave so that it destroys their HQ when it launches.
- The artifact probably has to be the biggest Deus Ex Machina in all of video games. Turns out it only does everything. Transmutes matter, and energy and essence and back again, and imprisons Amon, etc. etc.
- "Void" is LoTV's buzzword just like HoTS's was "essence". Take a shot every time you hear void.
- I feel like the protoss losing the Khala shouldn't be remotely feasible. Isn't it established that mastering any one of those arts takes decades/centuries of training? Artanis literally picks up the void in like 30 minutes. Then all the zealots in the arcship do the same. None of the khalai protoss should even be able to use psionics at this point. Yet Artanis and other units still clearly use powers that require the Khala (his warp blades are blue/green to show off his twilight nature). How does this make any sense?
- Wish we had Twilight Archons or Twilight Templar. :(
- Can't help but feel that Zeratul has been abused in every way possible. Turned from an ninja alien badass sage in SC1 to a doomsaying old man in SC2. And now that the prophecy nonsense is over, Blizzard has no more use for him as a character, and killed him. Talk about character assassination.
- Rohanna is a badass. The epitome of an alien, not even living in her own time.
- Karax's beard irritates me to no end. At least his voice isn't totally cliche. Was expecting him to have a deep voice and/or sound like a dwarf.
- The Spear of Adun is a badass contraption.
- The Shakuras Xel'Naga temple artifact mission took me on a serious nostalgia trip. Holding back waves of zerg from the warp gate. Artanis activating the temple. Good times. :)
- Destroying Shakuras was a ballsy move on the part of the writers as well. Kudos. However, I'd say many of these events move way too fast. I don't know if this is at all believable given the whole point of the protoss is their antagonism towards change.
- Artanis is becoming my favorite character. I still don't think he should be a powerful warrior given that he spends all his time as a government official, but it's good to know that he was the badass mofo that I played as in SC1 episode 3.
- Fenix. Yet another character revival. But at least this has a plausible sci-fi explanation, so I'm not too broke up about it. Also, at least they somewhat tried with his voice. Love his side stories though! Some actual worldbuilding!
- The fight scenes are sick. It's nice watching Kerrigan get her ass kicked.
- I thought Ulnar was supposed to be a twilight planet, not a space construct, and not in the milky way. Pretty much all of In Utter Darkness is retconned. No Urun. No mind controlled Protoss coming to get you. Hell, we're even using the Khala in that mission.
- I think I was kind of on point with my Xel'Naga theory: http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?15991-Xel-Naga-Universe-Origins
- As well as the fact that the Protoss shouldn't have tried to retake Aiur: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10895830045
- I guess preservers don't exist anymore and all their stored memories are gone? Rohana honestly shouldn't have cut her nerve cords. Just keep her in stasis and preserve the memories of all your people. Small price to pay...
- The Xel'Naga never uplifted the protoss, Amon did. Another blatant SC1 manual retcon. Destroys the whole thing about the Xel'Naga being scientists.
- How does this fit into the DT saga? Where did Zamara get her memories of the actual Xel'Naga who never interfered in our universe? How does she know about the natural cycle? Who built those labs beneath Aiur? It was all Amon? Why didn't he bring some Tal'Darim with him to Zerus and just make some Hybrids right there?
- Why even MAKE hybrids instead of assimilating protoss like the Overmind was originally going to? You don't have to abduct any protoss and you could spawn Hybrids en-masse from Hatcheries.
- Why did Amon make Narud help Kerrigan in BW? Seriously, what was the point if he already knew in advance that only she could stop his plans?
- What about the Phoenix creatures in the DT Saga and Shadow of the Xel'Naga? There are ordered temples like the one on Shakuras, and wild ones that house phoenix creatures. What is their purpose? What exactly did the normal Xel'Naga who don't interfere with anything actually build then? It's all very confusing.
- Why was Amon not in control of the Protoss empire like he was the Tal'Darim? Narud could have done that for him and saved a headache.
- I've asked this before, but again, how does Amon actually plan to remake creation in his image given the vastness of the universe, let alone multiverse? Aren't there are other universes now where the cycle is still going on? The sheer scope would undermine his own efforts.
- Probably the worst thing about the dialog is the "Friend Raynor" and "Friend Fenix" crap that the writers just can't seem to let go of.
- Alarak doesn't suck, but his voice is Covetous Shen from D3. Can't really take him seriously because I just think of a cartoon character. Still, one of the better characters in LoTV. Since he's the top protoss in the chain of ascension, does this mean he's being fed lots of power? Explains how he broke out of his stasis cage so easily, or Vorazun's surprise at how he destroyed both the door and the zerg behind it on that Aiur mission.
- Why the heck is every bad faction red now? Gets confusing when Taldarim and corrupted protoss are all red.
- I hate all the science fantasy bullcrap. The shades that are like normal units yet weaker. What the hell are they made of and who controls them? It's stupid that Amon can mind control an entire race and his mysterious essence flows out of each protoss' nerve tendrils when the artifact goes off. I can't believe the void is an actual hidden layer of reality that's just like normal reality. Makes no sense. I thought it was merely an energy source. Obviously the tone of SC2 is obviously a huge departure, and downgrade, from SC1.
- Thank you for ignoring the Primal Zerg. Phew! Not sarcasm, I'm legitimately glad I didn't have to hear Dehaka's grating voice.
- Ouros reminds me of the Leviathans from ME3. Finally meeting the beginning of all life in the galaxy and all that. And they look similar.
- Ouros tricked Zeratul into thinking he was Tassadar? Now THAT is a twist I didn't see coming. Almost feels like a response to the critics. Like SC2's version of ME3's indoctrination theory, but actually in the game.
- Why doesn't Amon even have a functioning body by the start of LoTV? Narud said we already revived him.
- The epilogue. What the hell happened? We had a semi-decent ending with the main campaign where we didn't have the cliche 3 races team up to fight Amon ending (psych!). Kerrigan ascends to godhood, the one person who's been shown to be the least responsible and judicious with her use of power. Why her? She's terran/zerg. Why not Artanis? Why not require one of each? The entire buildup of combining purity of form and essence to continue the cycle has been demolished. It's not supposed to be a Terran hybrid who becomes the next generation of Xel'Naga! Why couldn't we have gotten an epilogue that actually took us back to what StarCraft is supposed to be about: galactic domination and politics? Extremely disappointing. And I'm sorry, but entirely different universes shouldn't even be mentioned or even be in the scope of StarCraft.
- Kerrigan is an angel.
- I love how HoTS's lead writer said that Kerrigan isn't necessarily the savior of the universe, just a leader that can keep zerg away from Amon and give everyone else a fighting chance. But now she ascends to godhood and is the chosen one who saved the universe like everyone was saying all along. What a complete 180.
- So Kerrigan left a bloodthirsty Broodmother in charge of the swarm who has already began forcibly retaking planets after LoTV. Great job atoning for your mistakes Kerrigan! What a disgrace that this character got all the power in the universe and a happy ending on top of it. She talks about paying for her crimes, and when she accepts Ouros's power it's understood that she's sacrificing her happy ending with Jim to help save the universe. Psych! Just kidding! This is SC2. Happy ending for you! Happy ending for you! Happy ending for everyone! Christ, this was terrible. Just more of the writers failing to decide if they want a serious epic sci-fi, or a lighthearted cartoon that's accessible to everyone.
- The epilogue should have been an actual epilogue that showed what the races were doing after Amon was dealt with. It wasn't an epilogue, it was a continuation of the main storyline and a bitter disappointment considering that instead of getting back to galactic politics and perhaps setting the stage for more lore or another game, we dive headlong into fantasy bull$hit.
- Loving the Field Manual. Good job Robear!
- Again, I easily enjoyed LoTV far more than the others. It's a marked improvement. Not sure how I feel about the upcoming Nova DLC though. It's hard to take a universe seriously where you can't use logic or critical thinking to theorycraft or make deductions given that anything could be retconned.

Drake Clawfang

11-14-2015, 11:37 AM

Some responses though; there were a couple things you overlooked. :)

- I thought Ulnar was supposed to be a twilight planet, not a space construct, and not in the milky way. Pretty much all of In Utter Darkness is retconned. No Urun. No mind controlled Protoss coming to get you. Hell, we're even using the Khala in that mission.

I don't believe they explicitly stated the planet in In Utter Darkness was the Xel'naga homeworld. I took it as just a random planet the protoss happened to be cornered on.

- How does this fit into the DT saga? Where did Zamara get her memories of the actual Xel'Naga who never interfered in our universe? How does she know about the natural cycle? Who built those labs beneath Aiur? It was all Amon? Why didn't he bring some Tal'Darim with him to Zerus and just make some Hybrids right there?
- What about the Phoenix creatures in the DT Saga and Shadow of the Xel'Naga? There are ordered temples like the one on Shakuras, and wild ones that house phoenix creatures. What is their purpose? What exactly did the normal Xel'Naga who don't interfere with anything actually build then? It's all very confusing.

Blizzard has stupidly decided to ignore the novels unless specific parts of them are useful. Notice that most of the stuff that actually happened in the DT Saga was either retconned (Tal'darim), ignored (Zamara, Ulrezaj), or brought into the games and explained again anyway (Valerian, preservers). The trilogy turned out to be a waste of time.

- Why did Amon make Narud help Kerrigan in BW? Seriously, what was the point if he already knew in advance that only she could stop his plans?

I'd wager it was to make her more powerful and make the zerg stronger, so when he pulls the rug out from under her and drains her power to revive Amon, he has more to drain, and then Amon takes control of the zerg now that Kerrigan has been keeping his seat warm for him for the last four years.

- Why the heck is every bad faction red now? Gets confusing when Taldarim and corrupted protoss are all red.

I would have preferred a distinction too. However, it actually makes sense to use that same color; Red has usually been preserved for the elite and/or evil factions: Daggoth's brood and Zerg heroes, the Dominion (and Duran's mercenaries, by coincidence), and the Judicators in SC1.

- I hate all the science fantasy bullcrap. The shades that are like normal units yet weaker. What the hell are they made of and who controls them?

Agreed. The Shadows of the Void in the Whispers of Oblivion prologue was taken to the point of absurdity

- Why doesn't Amon even have a functioning body by the start of LoTV? Narud said we already revived him.

As I understand it, Amon was in the Void, trapped and/or weaken, and Kerrigan's energy gave him the strength to begin exerting his power from outside the Void. The other bit, the Xel'naga don't have permanent bodies outside of the Void. Hence he was making the primary host body.

Also agreed: Void is a silly buzzword (called that in Whispers of Oblivion Abridged :p), and the epilogue is awful from a story point. I find it hilariously underwhelming how much Kerrigan sucks in that mission, they just give her stronger versions of the HotS abilities she already had. Xel'Kerrigan should be an army unto herself, a being that can run into a whole enemy army and kick their asses. Instead she's rather fragile and pathetic.

Gradius

11-14-2015, 12:12 PM

I don't believe they explicitly stated the planet in In Utter Darkness was the Xel'naga homeworld. I took it as just a random planet the protoss happened to be cornered on.
It was called Ulnar in the planet info. http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Ulnar

I'd wager it was to make her more powerful and make the zerg stronger, so when he pulls the rug out from under her and drains her power to revive Amon, he has more to drain, and then Amon takes control of the zerg now that Kerrigan has been keeping his seat warm for him for the last four years.
But she's the only one who can stop his plans. Why not kill her and insert another Overmind or something? He should have been helping Daggoth during the Brood War who would gladly have done so.

He needed her alive to revive Amon? I guess that works. But it seems like a very contrived reason to keep your enemy around. Hard to believe he couldn't just find some energy from somewhere else...

As I understand it, Amon was in the Void, trapped and/or weaken, and Kerrigan's energy gave him the strength to begin exerting his power from outside the Void. The other bit, the Xel'naga don't have permanent bodies outside of the Void. Hence he was making the primary host body.
But he never died. He existed in the void the whole time with all his crystals that made him super powerful. I thought he could still affect stuff from in the void as well like when he whispers to Kerrigan or communes with the Tal'Darim. And if he didn't have a finished host body in HoTS, why did Narud even say that he lives again? He didn't actually revive him.

Robear

11-14-2015, 12:36 PM

I didn't like the way Rohana was handled myself. Even with the Khala compromised, even with Artanis coming to believe it was a misguided, divisive force in the first place, the memories of every Protoss who ever lived are an incredibly precious resource. One that I really really really don't think either of those characters would be willing to give up. Rohana should have been put in stasis. There could have been a whole cutscene, about how if they fail to defeat Amon she will never be revived, and even if they succeed the Khala will be finished, and with no one for her to connect to she'd be completely alone and all that.

But, for everyone's talk of saying "En Taro Adun" all the time, nobody's curious about the memories of people who knew him? When she's standing right there for most of the game with those memories? (I guess she was so hostile to the Nerazim because she was put into stasis before Adun died, so she didn't have his memories of hanging out with them and finding out they were fine, but that could have been another nice bit of dialogue between her and Artanis.) Or Khas, for that matter? And especially with so many Protoss civilians dead, isn't the aggregate knowledge of all Protoss artists and architects ever something of value? That short story with her describes collaboration between current khalai artisans with the knowledge of the past in a way that seems really cool and useful. No one ever asks her about anything, she just pipes up with "even such and such judicator wasn't this stupid."

I guess part of the message was that no old Protoss culture would survive the unification of all the different cultures, so maybe Artanis was fine with starting from scratch, but I think Rohana could have used at least some more thinking about it or reflection before severing her own nerve cords.

The_Blade

11-14-2015, 01:22 PM

I am very happy with the LotV campaign. It has several minor inconsistencies when looked at on a vacuum. It is a game that explains itself well enough, but I am angry that they retconned pretty much everything.

I feel like the Epilogue was equally rushes to the prologue and had many constraints.

-I blurted out a crooked laugh when Raynor said "No! Kerrigan, you can't do it!", just as they meet Ouros and his proposal.
-Phoenix Kerrigan was a bad decision. They could have gone something more Human WITHOUT WINGS like D3 Archon.
-I am very confused by the resulting Xel'naga circle. I thought Artanis and Kerrigan were merging. Maybe Artanis needs some DLC so this was one of the constraints.
-The Void realm is not special. The implementation is uninteresting and much closer to a fantasy hell. I would accept a rift between universes way easier.
-Stukov said hi.
-No ending cinematic

That being said. Overall, I am very happy with the full game. The conclusion was necessary. It's great that they got the guts to end the era. Not the best ending, but it was a decent ending. Now that the Xel'naga thing is in the past, SC3 can go back to the sci-fi soap opera or the SC2 DLC for now. I kind of liked that Kerrigan and Raynor get to seed life into the universe by fucking around in the void as gods.

@Robear: I agree with you, mate. Something else that bugged me was that Nerazim and Khalai factions disappeared. At the start of the campaign it felt like the Nerazim did not even wanted to retake Aiur; and Vorazun and Artanis were in the worst terms possible.

sandwich_bird

11-14-2015, 02:16 PM

Really good points all around Grad. I kinda shut my brain off when I played so I missed/turned a blind eye on most of these. Many of these inconsistencies did make the story hard to follow at times though.

ragnarok

11-14-2015, 03:34 PM

The epilogue. What the hell happened? We had a semi-decent ending with the main campaign where we didn't have the cliche 3 races team up to fight Amon ending (psych!). Kerrigan ascends to godhood, the one person who's been shown to be the least responsible and judicious with her use of power. Why her? She's terran/zerg. Why not Artanis? Why not require one of each? The entire buildup of combining purity of form and essence to continue the cycle has been demolished. It's not supposed to be a Terran hybrid who becomes the next generation of Xel'Naga! Why couldn't we have gotten an epilogue that actually took us back to what StarCraft is supposed to be about: galactic domination and politics? Extremely disappointing. And I'm sorry, but entirely different universes shouldn't even be mentioned or even be in the scope of StarCraft.

It's not a plothole, Gradius. This happened because the Protoss were uplifted by Amon, not the regular Xel'Naga, making them tainted. The original plan was merely to have them left alone to have purity of form. This was why only the terran race could qualify. Wasn't a great idea, but it made sense.

I love how HoTS's lead writer said that Kerrigan isn't necessarily the savior of the universe, just a leader that can keep zerg away from Amon and give everyone else a fighting chance. But now she ascends to godhood and is the chosen one who saved the universe like everyone was saying all along. What a complete 180.

That was merely for the sake of redemption, though this certainly could have been done better. She should have done those things in HotS. By LotV it was late in the day for it all

The_Blade

11-14-2015, 06:05 PM

ragnarok

11-14-2015, 06:15 PM

Oh! Thought I was on another thread. Sorry Grad.

I agree with most of your points to an extent, Grad. I learned not to expect much book lore followup after WoL and HotS. I was really aware of most of the retcons during my first playthrough, but some were either expected or reworking things that were broken in the last two games.

I think I am as excited as you are or even less about the Void entities.

Another buzz word is "abomination". Finish your drink if you hear it.

This is why before Blizzard does any more work in the SC universe AT ALL, they need to hire more lore keepers, to see what can work, and what can't work for the lore, and which contradictory lore they need to throw out. Let's just start with that.

Gradius

11-14-2015, 06:27 PM

LoTV summary: When we go into the Void we'll need use our Void Rays to destroy the Void Thrashers that are guarding the Void Crystals that are spawning Amon's Void shades which we'll destroy to reduce Amon's Void powers.

The_Blade

11-14-2015, 06:43 PM

They do have very good Lore Historians. I've met two of them and they are beasts when talking about lore. They know everything!

The problem with development, as outlined by Metzen, is that a lot of people chip into the story. Designers want certain attributes related to gameplay to happen, Producers want some topics or audiences addressed, and Artists can only create a limited number of assets. After all this changes are voiced by the other departments, the fundamental story of the game has to change. IIRC Historians help write the initial untouched story and then help make the changes less dramatic.

As well, in the case of SC2's trilogy we have three different lead writers. Chris Metzen [WoL], Brian Kindregan [HotS], and James Waugh [LotV]. Metzen's outline was followed, but the rest of the continuity was like a game of Chinese Wispers. While they could still talk to each other, the department constraints added into the difficulty of preserving the timeline. Then, how each writer reacted is what shaped the final tone of the game.

Sheliek

11-14-2015, 11:33 PM

Turalyon

11-15-2015, 12:04 AM

TIL that mentioning information like the Spear of Adun, which was not previously mentioned but also does not contradict a single piece of preexisting story, is a retcon. I'm critical of the story, but try harder please.

It's called an additive retcon which means it's still a retcon, my friend. Retcon is a neutral term, it's just that people use it and hear it in a perjorative sense.

Nissa

11-15-2015, 12:08 AM

Is there any reason why the Spear of Adun couldn't have just been built by the Protoss? Did it really have to be discovered?

FanaticTemplar

11-15-2015, 01:01 AM

Is there any reason why the Spear of Adun couldn't have just been built by the Protoss? Did it really have to be discovered?

It was built by the Protoss. The Protoss of the time were unequaled by anything in the world, so there was really no point in this much overkill, so Rohana and her sisters felt that it should be sealed away, never used until all hope is lost so that it could provide a last chance for the Protoss when everything else had failed. The short story is available on Battle.net. (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lore/short-stories/end-in-fire/1) I quite like it, actually.

ragnarok

11-15-2015, 04:04 AM

They do have very good Lore Historians. I've met two of them and they are beasts when talking about lore. They know everything!

The problem with development, as outlined by Metzen, is that a lot of people chip into the story. Designers want certain attributes related to gameplay to happen, Producers want some topics or audiences addressed, and Artists can only create a limited number of assets. After all this changes are voiced by the other departments, the fundamental story of the game has to change. IIRC Historians help write the initial untouched story and then help make the changes less dramatic.

Ultimately this was the problem even in HotS: everyone wanted something different, they tried to compromise, but the compromise satisfied NO ONE.

Drake Clawfang

11-15-2015, 05:16 AM

It's called an additive retcon which means it's still a retcon, my friend. Retcon is a neutral term, it's just that people use it and hear it in a perjorative sense.

Agreed, people universally assume retcons are bad. Everyone uses retcons, Tolkien retconned stuff. But something like the Spear of Adun is fine; yes, we didn't mention it before, but its existence now does not contradict pre-existing lore (unlike a lot of parts of SC2). It's like retconning the Khalis was on Char, or the Psi Disruptor was on Tarsonis.

Also, a small but cool touch I'm wondering if others noticed - the Xel'naga Temple on Shakuras, I thought "oh cool, the layout is all the same as before." However, now we have these nice lanes leading up to the temple? Odd. But, look at the chasm around the temple and you see the temple walls stretching into it. Remember the cinematic of it activating? It destroyed the land around it, and now the Nerazim have rebuilt around it and built a platform up around the top of it.

The_Blade

11-15-2015, 05:42 AM

Also, a small but cool touch I'm wondering if others noticed - the Xel'naga Temple on Shakuras, I thought "oh cool, the layout is all the same as before." However, now we have these nice lanes leading up to the temple? Odd. But, look at the chasm around the temple and you see the temple walls stretching into it. Remember the cinematic of it activating? It destroyed the land around it, and now the Nerazim have rebuilt around it and built a platform up around the top of it.

*Claps* Good eye, FT. A tear almost came out of my eye. Just proves how much the Level Artists/Designers care about the details. Every map was a 10/10 on terrain art, except the Epilogue (though I'm heavily biased because I disliked the concept of the Void realm).

Gradius

11-15-2015, 10:19 AM

Robear

11-15-2015, 10:27 AM

^ Yeah, this is a great point Gradius.

As the greater whole of the Xel’Naga race was consumed by the raging, genetic whirlwind of the Zerg, the Overmind gained the knowledge and insights of its masters. The Overmind processed thousands of sentient beings into itself, causing it to grow far more powerful than it had ever imagined. It learned the secrets of the sacred Khaydarin Crystals, and began to incorporate the energies of these Crystals into its own. Through the intimate knowledge of evolution and proto-genetic physiology gained from the Xel’Naga, the Overmind was able to increase the level of sentience in many of the higher Zerg strains, while still keeping them fully under its control.

Through dissecting the memories of the Xel’Naga, the Overmind was made aware of the myriad races that had at one time or another been influenced by the ancient race. The Xel’Naga had kept a detailed genetic history of each race, giving the Overmind a clear understanding of their respective strengths and weaknesses. Most importantly, the Overmind learned of an exceedingly powerful race that lived near the galaxy’s fringe known only as the Protoss. The Overmind knew then that the Protoss and the Zerg would eventually be caught in an inevitable, apocalyptic conflict.

I guess though with Ouros willingly giving god powers vs the Overmind trying to take them by force and maybe only getting 'knowledge and insights' out of it, this is less of a trampling of the SC1 manual than a lot of other stuff.

Visions of Khas

11-15-2015, 11:23 AM

^ When assalting Narud's research facility, Abathur mentioned it was impossible to assimilate the essence of the Hybrids. I'm going to assume it's similar with the Xel'Naga. However, it's possible for the Overmind to "touch minds" with its creators and gain some insights.

Drake Clawfang

11-15-2015, 11:50 AM

Two things that came to mind. First, this made me take pause.

These Dark Templar wield energies much like my own.

In hindsight, it shouldn't have been that much of a surprise that the new Big Bad that uses Void energy to do shiz created the Overmind.

Also, if you've never used the Mothership in the campaign - DO IT. The Tal'darim Motherships make the normal Mothership look like an ineffectual pussy. THESE are the mighty capital ships so strong we're only allowed one that the Mothership should have been all along.

ragnarok

11-15-2015, 03:39 PM

One other thing I noticed. Kerrigan assimilated Ouros, but the zerg already assimilated the Xel'Naga in the SC1 manual. So they should have godhood status already and/or not be able to do it in the first place...

I thought only the Overmind himself was the one assimilating the Xel'Naga. And in any case it was largely retconned via the SC2 lore so it doesn't matter anymore

^ When assalting Narud's research facility, Abathur mentioned it was impossible to assimilate the essence of the Hybrids. I'm going to assume it's similar with the Xel'Naga. However, it's possible for the Overmind to "touch minds" with its creators and gain some insights.

This is what I'm saying. That meant Amon made sure the Overmind was unique from other Zerg. Maybe he figured out the other Xel'Naga would know what he was up to, so he designed the Overmind so that it could assimilate his people

Aldrius

11-15-2015, 03:51 PM

- Alarak doesn't suck, but his voice is Covetous Shen from D3. Can't really take him seriously because I just think of a cartoon character. Still, one of the better characters in LoTV. Since he's the top protoss in the chain of ascension, does this mean he's being fed lots of power? Explains how he broke out of his stasis cage so easily, or Vorazun's surprise at how he destroyed both the door and the zerg behind it on that Aiur mission.

Alarak was played by John de Lancie (Q from Star Trek) not James Hong (Covetous Shen). I didn't really think he sounded cartoony (or like James Hong) at all.

Turalyon

11-16-2015, 08:43 AM

Kerrigan assimilated Ouros, but the zerg already assimilated the Xel'Naga in the SC1 manual. So they should have godhood status already and/or not be able to do it in the first place...

Maybe it's different because Kerrigan wasn't technically using Zerg assimilation processes or that Ouros was just giving his powers to her.

Besides, we're talking about the Primal Zerg infested Kerrigan here - which don't assimilate but eat essence. Only the Overmind Zerg assimilated Xel'Naga so even if she had that part of her in her original QoB form, it was expunged from her with the artifact in WoL. I don't blame you for not being able to tell the difference the two types of QoB though. :p

ragnarok

11-16-2015, 05:08 PM

Maybe it's different because Kerrigan wasn't technically using Zerg assimilation processes or that Ouros was just giving his powers to her.

It was the latter. Unlike the primal pack leaders who had their essence taken against their will, Ouros volunteered to give that up to her. This again is a shame on the Xel'Naga's part for their stupid tradition in cherishing life and would never kill (Amon and his followers being the exception).

DarthYam

11-17-2015, 02:11 AM

ragnarok

11-17-2015, 05:31 AM

I didn't mind Kerrigan's ascension or her redemption. She wanted to stop Amon as a way of making amends (since killing Amon would guarantee the future safety of zerg human and protoss). She even takes up the xel'naga cause, creating life rather than destroying. It's a nice penance. Where she destroyed now she gives life.

Even being with Jimmy isn't bad because he's a broken man who kinda needs healing. Kerrigan's doing it for his sake. And in anycase, a human life is a blink to a xel'naga.

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Another possibility is that Amon released the Zerg as a desperation move. Both sides were being badly beaten so he unleashed the zerg to try and take his enemies out. Unfortunately the Zerg feasted on his followers to.

To me, this would be somewhat like the ending of The Count of Monte Cristo film, where after Dantes got his revenge, he went back to the prison where he was held for so long and made peace offerings to the priest who helped him escape (but lost his life in the process).

He made the vow that "all that was used for evil will now be used for good."

This is my hope of what Kerrigan is now doing, that she had abused her power for her own selfish gains, now she would do the opposite. This was hinted in the epilogue, where it was proven that ultimately, she DID think beyond herself.

TheEconomist

11-17-2015, 06:37 AM

This is my hope of what Kerrigan is now doing, that she had abused her power for her own selfish gains, now she would do the opposite. This was hinted in the epilogue, where it was proven that ultimately, she DID think beyond herself.

So basically you hope for the final nail in StarCraft's coffin. The Zerg are not a delinquent criminal to redeem itself in a heart-wrenching ending cutscene. They're the fucking Zerg.

DarthYam

11-17-2015, 01:14 PM

So basically you hope for the final nail in StarCraft's coffin. The Zerg are not a delinquent criminal to redeem itself in a heart-wrenching ending cutscene. They're the fucking Zerg.

The Zerg no. Kerrigan yes. Kerrigan is personally making life to make up for all the atrocities she committed. It's a way of balancing the scales. The zerg this time are just vindictive violent assholes, not cold blooded sadists.

ragnarok

11-17-2015, 04:59 PM

The Zerg no. Kerrigan yes. Kerrigan is personally making life to make up for all the atrocities she committed. It's a way of balancing the scales. The zerg this time are just vindictive violent assholes, not cold blooded sadists.

Right. It's not like after spending that much time with the swarm made her PURELY Zerg in mentality. That was never the case even during the infestation years.

TheEconomist

11-17-2015, 05:40 PM

The Zerg are biological organisms performing biological imperatives. Kerrigan is Zerg. Fuck that SC2 shit.

ragnarok

11-17-2015, 05:55 PM

The Zerg are biological organisms performing biological imperatives. Kerrigan is Zerg. Fuck that SC2 shit.

She wasn't 100% Zerg and that still applied even after the primal transformation

TheEconomist

11-17-2015, 06:28 PM

Sorry. I forgot to translate.

FUCK that SC2 SHIT.

KaiserStratosTygo

11-17-2015, 07:42 PM

Sorry. I forgot to translate.

FUCK that SC2 SHIT.

We may not always agree.

but today we do.

Nissa

11-17-2015, 08:29 PM

DarthYam

11-17-2015, 09:42 PM

I would only be okay with a Kerrigan redemption plot if she died in the end. Not like noble sacrifice, or anything like that, just dies. Or she sort of regrets some of her actions, but is incapable of taking action that would help her escape the swarm.

That kinda cheapens the whole plot and isn't really a redemption. Redemption stories have to have the character do something meaningful. In the Graphic novel version of kickass Red Mist saves Hitgirl from assassins, but gets a fatal bullet wound in the stomach. He dies from it and Hit Girl makes it very clear that it isn't enough to make amends. However, even if it doesn't fully absolve him of his other crimes it's enough that it kinda qualifies (saving a former foe at the cost of his own life in a desire to make things right.)

Honestly, Kaiser and Economist are being wankers.

Nissa

11-17-2015, 10:26 PM

That kinda cheapens the whole plot and isn't really a redemption. Redemption stories have to have the character do something meaningful. In the Graphic novel version of kickass Red Mist saves Hitgirl from assassins, but gets a fatal bullet wound in the stomach. He dies from it and Hit Girl makes it very clear that it isn't enough to make amends. However, even if it doesn't fully absolve him of his other crimes it's enough that it kinda qualifies (saving a former foe at the cost of his own life in a desire to make things right.)

Honestly, Kaiser and Economist are being wankers.

Well, I'm not quite sure what you mean about "whole plot." Do you mean SC2? For the record, most of my posts on here carry the automatic assumption that SC2 isn't canon, and completely ignorable. If you mean Kerrigan's arc, then I'm not sure how. She's always been a tragic character and a pawn of several things -- the Confederacy, the Sons of Korhal, the Overmind, and finally, her own insecurities. The primary way to ruin her character is to give her a happily ever after ending.

But I was just saying that's the only way I'd take a redemption plot seriously. I don't necessarily mean that her arc should end in her dying. It's just a realistic end for her. If there's to be a "redemption" it should be the point where she's finally free of her own hatred, rather than her being directly noble. Though my personal favorite ending for her is that she should be permanently exiled to a small moon, where she is forced to remain a test subject for the rest of her life to help cure human infestation.

DarthYam

11-17-2015, 10:55 PM

Well, I'm not quite sure what you mean about "whole plot." Do you mean SC2? For the record, most of my posts on here carry the automatic assumption that SC2 isn't canon, and completely ignorable. If you mean Kerrigan's arc, then I'm not sure how. She's always been a tragic character and a pawn of several things -- the Confederacy, the Sons of Korhal, the Overmind, and finally, her own insecurities. The primary way to ruin her character is to give her a happily ever after ending.

But I was just saying that's the only way I'd take a redemption plot seriously. I don't necessarily mean that her arc should end in her dying. It's just a realistic end for her. If there's to be a "redemption" it should be the point where she's finally free of her own hatred, rather than her being directly noble. Though my personal favorite ending for her is that she should be permanently exiled to a small moon, where she is forced to remain a test subject for the rest of her life to help cure human infestation.

BOOOORRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!! !!!! Having her only ever be a pawn and tragic gets boring. Having her lay the past to rest and become a hero would be a good way of ending her story. Even if she sacrifices her life to save the universe it's better. Heck LOV wrapped her story up. All in all I see a happy ending or at least bittersweet ending. All I can say is that if you think being a test subject the rest of her life is a good ending than WTF is wrong with you. That's just depressing and not in a good way. That's warhammer depressing and it's the kind of grim that only an emo teenager would like

Nissa

11-17-2015, 11:27 PM

BOOOORRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!! !!!! Having her only ever be a pawn and tragic gets boring. Having her lay the past to rest and become a hero would be a good way of ending her story. Even if she sacrifices her life to save the universe it's better. Heck LOV wrapped her story up. All in all I see a happy ending or at least bittersweet ending. All I can say is that if you think being a test subject the rest of her life is a good ending than WTF is wrong with you. That's just depressing and not in a good way. That's warhammer depressing and it's the kind of grim that only an emo teenager would like

????

What's with the emotion? May I reply that I find that "redemptive" ending to be completely "boooooorrrrrriiinnnnnngggg"?

Uh, a writing idea generally isn't depressing in a good or bad way until it is executed. Besides, I'm not saying Kerrigan should be a pawn, I'm saying she always has been a pawn. Seriously, that's all she is in SC, and in BW she's incapable of acting outside of her emotional needs, namely, for power and revenge. If you think that's boring, well then, you must think SC/BW are boring.

RODTHEGOD

11-18-2015, 12:22 AM

I'm not exactly sure what would have been the best ending for Kerrigan.

A "happily ever after" just doesn't feel right but I don't think her getting killed or locked up is the right way to go either.

After having some time to think about it. The idea of Jim sparing Kerrigan's life after she gets de-infested isn't a bad one but blizzard didn't execute it properly. We should have been reminded of Raynor's vow to kill her at least twice (flashbacks or something) in the WoL campaign, and "killing the Queen of Blades" should have been the official plan among all the characters right up until the point Raynor spares her. I think that would have been a good way to end the Raynor's vow story arc.

However what happens after? Was the QoB just some twisted wile of the Overmind? Or was it really Kerrigan? If she was actually the QoB, then going through the re-infestation story arc kinda makes sense for her character as what else would the QoB do? However, the whole "going to Zerus" to become a "purer form of the QoB" was just stupid on so many levels. Though admittedly I don't know what else would have been an appropriate way for her to get re-infested. Maybe go visit the carcass of the Overmind? I also think it would have been more interesting to see a highly intelligent, newly created, first of it's kind, zerg creature rise to power rather than a human.

If The QoB was just a servant of the Overmind... Well that makes things a little more difficult. A "happily ever after" doesn't make sense; too many people would want her dead even if you don't include Mengsk and his subordinates. There's no way she'd survive as a human. Perhaps, her getting killed at this point by order of Mengsk pushes Raynor over the edge; Making a Mengsk 2.0 if you will. But I don't know if I like the idea of Raynor becoming the bad guy. His character is one of the common man trying to do the right thing. It just doesn't fit. Perhaps Kerrigan re-infesting herself was really the only option unless kerrigan was never de-infested in the first place. But I can't really think of any good ways for the Raynor "kill kerrigan" arc to be satisfied in that scenario.

It's a tough call.

KaiserStratosTygo

11-18-2015, 12:51 AM

That kinda cheapens the whole plot and isn't really a redemption. Redemption stories have to have the character do something meaningful. In the Graphic novel version of kickass Red Mist saves Hitgirl from assassins, but gets a fatal bullet wound in the stomach. He dies from it and Hit Girl makes it very clear that it isn't enough to make amends. However, even if it doesn't fully absolve him of his other crimes it's enough that it kinda qualifies (saving a former foe at the cost of his own life in a desire to make things right.)

Honestly, Kaiser and Economist are being wankers.

oh Fuck off, dude.

I am a wanker for not accepting a terrible epilogue where an asshole get's everything she desired (and more) with no negative consequences and doesn't have to even as much as apologize for her crimes?

Kerrigan in SC2 sucks and so does her entire fan-service-y arc.

BOOOORRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!! !!!! Having her only ever be a pawn and tragic gets boring. Having her lay the past to rest and become a hero would be a good way of ending her story. Even if she sacrifices her life to save the universe it's better. Heck LOV wrapped her story up. All in all I see a happy ending or at least bittersweet ending. All I can say is that if you think being a test subject the rest of her life is a good ending than WTF is wrong with you. That's just depressing and not in a good way. That's warhammer depressing and it's the kind of grim that only an emo teenager would like

Nope, no good ending is deserved for this character, I would've been pleased if one of those Void spires fell on her and killed her in the most anti-climatic fashion possible.

it would prove that Blizzard didn't actually make a mary sue creator's pet.

oh well, gotta have your mass murdering psychos get everything they want and not be criticized by anyone (except the villain) because that's GOOD and FUN writing.

DarthYam

11-18-2015, 01:18 AM

oh Fuck off, dude.

I am a wanker for not accepting a terrible epilogue where an asshole get's everything she desired (and more) with no negative consequences and doesn't have to even as much as apologize for her crimes?

Kerrigan in SC2 sucks and so does her entire fan-service-y arc.

Nope, no good ending is deserved for this character, I would've been pleased if one of those Void spires fell on her and killed her in the most anti-climatic fashion possible.

it would prove that Blizzard didn't actually make a mary sue creator's pet.

oh well, gotta have your mass murdering psychos get everything they want and not be criticized by anyone (except the villain) because that's GOOD and FUN writing.

Given that when Kerrigan is selfish things blow up in her face (the reason Jim saved her in HOTS is because she chose the morally correct option over the expedient one) and that when she's selfless things work for her. Also, I'm pretty sure restoring life to dead worlds and taking on the Xel'naga message of giving life is an apology (she now wants to create life to make up). Kerrigan agreed to merge in order to save the other races and make amends (since Amon's death secured the future for everyone.)

DarthYam

11-18-2015, 01:21 AM

????

What's with the emotion? May I reply that I find that "redemptive" ending to be completely "boooooorrrrrriiinnnnnngggg"?

Uh, a writing idea generally isn't depressing in a good or bad way until it is executed. Besides, I'm not saying Kerrigan should be a pawn, I'm saying she always has been a pawn. Seriously, that's all she is in SC, and in BW she's incapable of acting outside of her emotional needs, namely, for power and revenge. If you think that's boring, well then, you must think SC/BW are boring.

I'm saying that her as a pawn could get boring after a while. If things are only miserable and depressing, either for a character or a setting why should anyone care? Being a pawn worked in SC1 but if that's all Kerrigan is EVER than it gets boring. Condemning any character to being a lab rat strikes me as kind of atrocious.

ragnarok

11-18-2015, 02:25 AM

I would only be okay with a Kerrigan redemption plot if she died in the end. Not like noble sacrifice, or anything like that, just dies. Or she sort of regrets some of her actions, but is incapable of taking action that would help her escape the swarm.

The whole regretting part is meaningless if her actions don't show for it. This was the main problem in HotS due to her focus on revenge.

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That kinda cheapens the whole plot and isn't really a redemption. Redemption stories have to have the character do something meaningful. In the Graphic novel version of kickass Red Mist saves Hitgirl from assassins, but gets a fatal bullet wound in the stomach. He dies from it and Hit Girl makes it very clear that it isn't enough to make amends. However, even if it doesn't fully absolve him of his other crimes it's enough that it kinda qualifies (saving a former foe at the cost of his own life in a desire to make things right.)

Honestly, Kaiser and Economist are being wankers.

Something you'd have to deal with ALL THE TIME on the battlenet forums, it really tests your nerves.

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oh Fuck off, dude.

I am a wanker for not accepting a terrible epilogue where an asshole get's everything she desired (and more) with no negative consequences and doesn't have to even as much as apologize for her crimes?

Kerrigan in SC2 sucks and so does her entire fan-service-y arc.

Nope, no good ending is deserved for this character, I would've been pleased if one of those Void spires fell on her and killed her in the most anti-climatic fashion possible.

it would prove that Blizzard didn't actually make a mary sue creator's pet.

oh well, gotta have your mass murdering psychos get everything they want and not be criticized by anyone (except the villain) because that's GOOD and FUN writing.

Stratos, this is EXACTLY why people could have a hard time seeing you're a good person in real life. Yes we know online it doesn't reflect your real self (this applies to everyone), but the way you're acting....

Look I don't have anything against you, but you have to start seeing that just because you disliked the story does NOT automatically mean those that did are "people who deserve to be locked in the insane asylum."

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Given that when Kerrigan is selfish things blow up in her face (the reason Jim saved her in HOTS is because she chose the morally correct option over the expedient one) and that when she's selfless things work for her. Also, I'm pretty sure restoring life to dead worlds and taking on the Xel'naga message of giving life is an apology (she now wants to create life to make up). Kerrigan agreed to merge in order to save the other races and make amends (since Amon's death secured the future for everyone.)

Ultimately however she merely did this for Raynor's sake. The same was true at the end of HotS.

The main problem here is it's not CONFIRMED she's seeding those worlds.

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I'm saying that her as a pawn could get boring after a while. If things are only miserable and depressing, either for a character or a setting why should anyone care? Being a pawn worked in SC1 but if that's all Kerrigan is EVER than it gets boring. Condemning any character to being a lab rat strikes me as kind of atrocious.

And this is why I never blamed her for her actions in HotS. Your first decisions in life are always bound to turn out as crap because you have no experience yet

Turalyon

11-18-2015, 03:35 AM

A "happily ever after" just doesn't feel right but I don't think her getting killed or locked up is the right way to go either.

Too right! Being absolved scot-free and taking no responsibility is too easy an out for her, as is just having her straight-up killed as punishment for her sins. Given that her crimes are to do with her selfishly getting things her way, her redemption and reward for it should not involve the same thing of selfishly getting something that ultimately improves her lot. The reward should be the act of doing something good and not expecting/getting anything in return. Anything more than that threatens to make them too perfect and idealised. I guess that's why the epilogue is often criticised because it makes Kerrigan into a Mary Sue/turns the whole affair into what looks like fanfic.

TheEconomist

11-18-2015, 07:05 AM

Stratos, this is EXACTLY why people could have a hard time seeing you're a good person in real life

What do people say about you, Ragnarok? Oh my ...

Nissa

11-18-2015, 08:13 AM

I'm saying that her as a pawn could get boring after a while. If things are only miserable and depressing, either for a character or a setting why should anyone care? Being a pawn worked in SC1 but if that's all Kerrigan is EVER than it gets boring. Condemning any character to being a lab rat strikes me as kind of atrocious.

Ah, I see. You're not looking at it like a writer. It would seem you like Kerrigan so much you want her to have a good ending, despite all. Thing is, Starcraft was at its best when it had consequences. When doing wrong meant a character would get it in the end. Basically every character has a tragic struggle, even Mengsk. When you make Kerri have a pretty princess ending, it cheapens the whole thing. Kerrigan's fate needed some level of punishment or hardship to make it acceptable, which is why so many people are pissed off by the epilogue -- she never got what she deserved.

There is no such thing as "atrocious" for a fictitious character except in specific circumstances. As Stephen King said, "murder your darlings." Indeed, it's often stated in writing books that a story is all the crap a character goes through to achieve their goals. A lab rat fate is only appropriate or inappropriate according to the circumstances of the specific character.

drakolobo

11-18-2015, 09:45 AM

ja must assume that in a real context not all good deeds are rewarded and all evil deeds are punished. ascension certainly had the risk the loss of herself as a human

the end does not leave a feeling quite happy, I see a little melancholy, it is unclear exactly what happened with ... one day he disappeared. the truth does not feel that they live a normal life, it seems that his humanity (a normal life) was lost, as the mythical end of Enoch who became something else, leaving humanity (beauty and simple wonders contains a normal life), that leaves me a melancholy / happy feeling

KaiserStratosTygo

11-18-2015, 10:50 AM

Given that when Kerrigan is selfish things blow up in her face (the reason Jim saved her in HOTS is because she chose the morally correct option over the expedient one) and that when she's selfless things work for her. Also, I'm pretty sure restoring life to dead worlds and taking on the Xel'naga message of giving life is an apology (she now wants to create life to make up). Kerrigan agreed to merge in order to save the other races and make amends (since Amon's death secured the future for everyone.)

No they don't, actually her being stupid and taking Mengsk alone was the only thing that blew up in her face, that's it.

Secondly I don't think it's been confirmed that she's the one restoring life, and even so it's all in secret, so no.

"I agreed to merge to have ultimate god-like power" such a noble sacrifice. "I helped kill a common enemy" does not an apology make, she had to or she would be fucked.

"Stratos, this is EXACTLY why people could have a hard time seeing you're a good person in real life. Yes we know online it doesn't reflect your real self (this applies to everyone), but the way you're acting...."

Rag, I don't really care how people see me, i'm going to be the same exact asshole I was yesterday and every day before.

ja must assume that in a real context not all good deeds are rewarded and all evil deeds are punished. ascension certainly had the risk the loss of herself as a human

the end does not leave a feeling quite happy, I see a little melancholy, it is unclear exactly what happened with ... one day he disappeared. the truth does not feel that they live a normal life, it seems that his humanity (a normal life) was lost, as the mythical end of Enoch who became something else, leaving humanity (beauty and simple wonders contains a normal life), that leaves me a melancholy / happy feeling

Uh, She has ultimate godly power now.

sorry, but I'm not buying this.

Nissa

11-18-2015, 11:10 AM

To be fair, Tygo, I think you're a cool dude.

KaiserStratosTygo

11-18-2015, 11:20 AM

To be fair, Tygo, I think you're a cool dude.

:D

Thanks!

Nissa

11-18-2015, 11:22 AM

:D

Thanks!

No prob. Your opinions are well thought out and interesting, and I don't see how opinions about a silly game can make you a bad person.

FanaticTemplar

11-18-2015, 11:53 AM

Ah, I see. You're not looking at it like a writer. It would seem you like Kerrigan so much you want her to have a good ending, despite all. Thing is, Starcraft was at its best when it had consequences. When doing wrong meant a character would get it in the end. Basically every character has a tragic struggle, even Mengsk. When you make Kerri have a pretty princess ending, it cheapens the whole thing. Kerrigan's fate needed some level of punishment or hardship to make it acceptable, which is why so many people are pissed off by the epilogue -- she never got what she deserved.

There is no such thing as "atrocious" for a fictitious character except in specific circumstances. As Stephen King said, "murder your darlings." Indeed, it's often stated in writing books that a story is all the crap a character goes through to achieve their goals. A lab rat fate is only appropriate or inappropriate according to the circumstances of the specific character.

No, I disagree. If Kerrigan goes through most of the story being a pawn to others, then breaks free, schemes her way into a position where no one else can control her only to realise she still can't get what she truly desires because she's still enslaved to the fear and bitterness and anger inside her, then putting her in someone else's cage is a regression for her character. Really, at that point breaking her free is the only real direction you can go.

Nissa

11-18-2015, 01:33 PM

No, I disagree. If Kerrigan goes through most of the story being a pawn to others, then breaks free, schemes her way into a position where no one else can control her only to realise she still can't get what she truly desires because she's still enslaved to the fear and bitterness and anger inside her, then putting her in someone else's cage is a regression for her character. Really, at that point breaking her free is the only real direction you can go.

Hm, I'd say that an executional problem -- it depends on how it's written. But some people are more free by being restrained. For example, Kerri, at the end of Brood War, is a slave to her own passions. And since at that point she's technically accomplished her goals, she has no future. Neither does she have friends, a career, a love, or anyone around besides mindless monsters. She's even stuck in a place where there's no art, architecture, theaters, shops, restaurants, or beach resorts. There's nowhere to go. Kerrigan's "free" and has power, but she really has nothing at all.

But hey, I'm open to other endings. Anything realistic with clear implications for both Kerrigan and everyone else works. Heck, I wish SC2 was less focused on her. That way her character wouldn't have been stretched beyond believability and she'd still have character potential. My main point is that Kerri should just have an ultimate fate that isn't things ending well for her, or her and Jimmy running off into the sunset. Gag.

DarthYam

11-18-2015, 01:35 PM

No, I disagree. If Kerrigan goes through most of the story being a pawn to others, then breaks free, schemes her way into a position where no one else can control her only to realise she still can't get what she truly desires because she's still enslaved to the fear and bitterness and anger inside her, then putting her in someone else's cage is a regression for her character. Really, at that point breaking her free is the only real direction you can go.

Exactly. Kerrigan only ever being a pawn gets boring after a while. It feels like Warhammer in that it's grim for the sake of being grim. And in it's own way seeding life (which is what Kerrigan is implied to be doing) for the sake of seeding life is heroic. You don't have to be recognized in order to be a hero. Heroes should be heroes regardless of the reaction they receive. If someone's only been a chewtoy their whole life it gets boring as shit.

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Kerrigan suffered executional problems in the current trilogy but the idea of her overcoming her inner demons, working to achieve redemption and having at the very least a bittersweet ending is fine.

drakolobo

11-18-2015, 02:17 PM

Nissa

11-18-2015, 02:38 PM

You can claim that Kerrigan's fate was unrealistic, but it was certainly unsatisfying, for a number of reasons. Indeed, the bitterness of her position only comes from the fact she might not be able to see Raynor ever again (I still maintain that the ghost at the end was Nova), which was a complete retcon, and has nothing to do with her SC1 incarnation. Sure, sometimes people who are horrible get away with good-ish fates, but Kerrigan's fate isn't merely her own. There are tons of people who feel raw about her and what she's done, so the genuine disgust players feel for the positivity of the ending is a realistic reflection of the disgust all the in-game characters might feel upon hearing that their greatest enemy became a Xel'Naga. At the very least, Artanis should be pissed as all hell.

TheEconomist

11-18-2015, 02:59 PM

Exactly. Kerrigan only ever being a pawn gets boring after a while.

Bad story telling begets bad story telling. Destroy and rebuild.

DarthYam

11-18-2015, 03:20 PM

Ah, I see. You're not looking at it like a writer. It would seem you like Kerrigan so much you want her to have a good ending, despite all. Thing is, Starcraft was at its best when it had consequences. When doing wrong meant a character would get it in the end. Basically every character has a tragic struggle, even Mengsk. When you make Kerri have a pretty princess ending, it cheapens the whole thing. Kerrigan's fate needed some level of punishment or hardship to make it acceptable, which is why so many people are pissed off by the epilogue -- she never got what she deserved.

There is no such thing as "atrocious" for a fictitious character except in specific circumstances. As Stephen King said, "murder your darlings." Indeed, it's often stated in writing books that a story is all the crap a character goes through to achieve their goals. A lab rat fate is only appropriate or inappropriate according to the circumstances of the specific character.

No. I think that if a character only ever goes through the wringer its hard to care about them. I believe that Kerrigan should pay some price but also feel that if she truly works at it she can potentially earn a happy ending. I'm somewhat discontent since she could have worked harder, but if Kerrigan had spent HOTS and LOTV busting ass trying to make amends I wouldn't object.

Gradius

11-18-2015, 03:25 PM

KaiserStratosTygo

11-18-2015, 03:28 PM

My point is that there really is no karma and rejecting a history that does not apply this system of cosmic retribution, because only reflects the personal moral and applied effects to a character. in a real context the villain can have a happy ending, the hero of the most horrible destinations

it is difficult if you focus on the fantasy of power

But take the case of Enoch, the myth / legend that instead of dying the way with God, and transcended, the mightiest angel Metatron became. But the nature of an angel, although his power is the loss of free will and are basically defined by their responsibility depending on the will of God, the human common things would cease to mean the same thing. like the simple things that give us happiness

A similar case is the story of Evangelion humanity transcending just joining a collective entity, Sinji reject this phenomenon, planting questions, as the value of self, our limitations, and the beauty of the little we have, when we can all , the limits of your personality vanishes.

For Kerrigan has been taken to the center of the wheel of life cycle universe and had the risk of being consumed by this responsibility, the way she and Jim is living is a mystery, we do not know if Jim was abducted on an idyllic fantasy if Kerrigan really has been released this responsability. abandon a normal life should not be taken lightly. Jim as a more of mysterious disappearances, never to be seen again, leaving a vacuum and uncertainty, but it is still a happy ending, though a bit melancholic

She has no resposnbilities thought, she's free to do as she pleases.

So, no you're not going to get me to believe that having ultimate pretty much unrestricted power is something for the person that holds it to mope about.

There's little I would do if such a thing existed in real life and I was able to attain it.

"My point is that there really is no karma and rejecting a history that does not apply this system of cosmic retribution, because only reflects the personal moral and applied effects to a character. in a real context the villain can have a happy ending, the hero of the most horrible destinations"

The Villain not only is not treated as such but gets everything they wanted, and I don't think they intended for it to be some "look this is realism" sort of thing but because they wanted their favorite pet sue to get off 100%

" but if Kerrigan had spent HOTS and LOTV busting ass trying to make amends I wouldn't object."

I would've been fine too, I was willing to accept a hard earned redemption after WoL, but HotS was like "nope, this is our favorite mary sue and she'll be able to do any and everything, end all be all, alpha-omega and be two contradictory things at once!"

ragnarok

11-18-2015, 04:10 PM

Too right! Being absolved scot-free and taking no responsibility is too easy an out for her, as is just having her straight-up killed as punishment for her sins. Given that her crimes are to do with her selfishly getting things her way, her redemption and reward for it should not involve the same thing of selfishly getting something that ultimately improves her lot. The reward should be the act of doing something good and not expecting/getting anything in return. Anything more than that threatens to make them too perfect and idealised. I guess that's why the epilogue is often criticised because it makes Kerrigan into a Mary Sue/turns the whole affair into what looks like fanfic.

And the fact that it's not proven if she's really the one doing the seeding on the worlds.

If she really was and Blizzard said that, that's another story. But even then it still won't change anything. There'd still be plenty of people who want revenge.

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Rag, I don't really care how people see me, i'm going to be the same exact asshole I was yesterday and every day before.

Which isn't smart.

ragnarok

11-18-2015, 04:14 PM

Exactly. Kerrigan only ever being a pawn gets boring after a while. It feels like Warhammer in that it's grim for the sake of being grim. And in it's own way seeding life (which is what Kerrigan is implied to be doing) for the sake of seeding life is heroic. You don't have to be recognized in order to be a hero. Heroes should be heroes regardless of the reaction they receive. If someone's only been a chewtoy their whole life it gets boring as shit.

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Kerrigan suffered executional problems in the current trilogy but the idea of her overcoming her inner demons, working to achieve redemption and having at the very least a bittersweet ending is fine.

Yes but I think for a lot of people the problem here is this only happened at the very end, as in that only in the epilogue and everything did she finally begin to look beyond herself. For a lot of people, they would say that this is far too late for her to do anything that can even remotely resemble redemption. Even if she really DID die in the battle against Amon, people might still have criticized it because she didn't suffer enough for the past actions.

I agree with your point about the recognition point. The purpose of the hero is mainly just to ensure the safety of others, not because they want a reward of out all this.

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You can claim that Kerrigan's fate was unrealistic, but it was certainly unsatisfying, for a number of reasons. Indeed, the bitterness of her position only comes from the fact she might not be able to see Raynor ever again (I still maintain that the ghost at the end was Nova), which was a complete retcon, and has nothing to do with her SC1 incarnation. Sure, sometimes people who are horrible get away with good-ish fates, but Kerrigan's fate isn't merely her own. There are tons of people who feel raw about her and what she's done, so the genuine disgust players feel for the positivity of the ending is a realistic reflection of the disgust all the in-game characters might feel upon hearing that their greatest enemy became a Xel'Naga. At the very least, Artanis should be pissed as all hell.

I had expected the Protoss people to have begun making plans in hoping to locate her again for their own version of justice. That was another flaw in LotV in that Artanis forgave her way too easily without her having to do anything.

No. I think that if a character only ever goes through the wringer its hard to care about them. I believe that Kerrigan should pay some price but also feel that if she truly works at it she can potentially earn a happy ending. I'm somewhat discontent since she could have worked harder, but if Kerrigan had spent HOTS and LOTV busting ass trying to make amends I wouldn't object.

But the problem is that's not what happened. Millions of people still died in HotS because she wanted revenge on Mengsk. Granted the industrial worlds were necessary, but that's not how others would view it. Plus she should have at least tried to help the terrans rebuild or something, otherwise as shown in LotV, it left the Dominion completely defenseless against Amon's forces.

What's the obsession with "seeding life" as some sort of atonement? In no way does that bring all the people she's killed back or actually atone for her crimes. A serial killer shouldn't be allowed to get out of jail by doing community service.

Being given infinite power and immortality as a "punishment" for mass murder is absurd. It's like electing Jeffrey Daumer as President of the United States of America so that he can finally be in a position to do some good in order to get out of jail. Kerrigan should have been executed in front of a jury after her actions in HoTS.

Then you can start hoping that at some point down the road she'll understand (or learn from Raynor) to give that power up

drakolobo

11-18-2015, 06:40 PM

In a real context, Raynor wouldn't have been in love with a mass murderer.
I'm certainly sure that you know, that people are irrational when the word love is at stake. people in love justifies the actions of people. People fall in love with bad people all the time, and turn their heads in the word redemption.
Jim certainly has an ideal justification if he blame her for the crimes when she has infestation He was being an idiot .

Jim was will revenge too, just when Kerrigan returned to normal wanted to forget
In fact the main motivators of jim has revolved around Kerrigan, abandonment Arcturus for kerrigan, he risk people for Kerrigan in Tarsonis and char. The morality of Jim, is gray in points.
certainly all raynor behavior is realistic

In a real context, Artanis wouldn't bow down to someone who razed entire planets in the last game just to get revenge on one guy.
Artanis is certainly quite rational, He is allied with alarak someone who openly manipulated.

Artanis judges the now, not the past, the first reaction was Artanis Kerrigan attack. When he realized the difference the queen of blade and kerrigan primal,his hostility declined.

Kerrigan did not differ all to Jim Raynor and both was to take revenge, he risked his crew killed and soldiers of the domain for kill to arturus. Kerrigan also behavior changes once their revenge end .
artanis kneeling by a religious component, is not kneel before Kerrigan, kneels by the phenomenon of ascension basically the end of a cycle and the beginning of another associated with the divinity xelnaga

In a real context, multiple characters would have called her out for her crimes and taken issue with her being given even more

ja for that this work of Selendis (:rolleyes: Selendis likes to remember the mistakes of others) and Amon (during the ascension say Kerrigan can be counterproductive, certainly Jim trusts in kerrigan and others are trusts in Ouros, being a xelnaga

power given her complete and utter lack of restraint or judicious use of power. A benevolent being like Ouros sure as hell shouldn't have been ok with that.
certainly if I could accept it, would give credibility to the election of Ourus,is a xelnaga like good god, he knows what he does.
also helps that she is only a woman who just wanted to avenge against a tyran and now more stable and working vs extinction, when I see on the horizont a universal genocidal god
[

DarthYam

11-18-2015, 07:02 PM

What's the obsession with "seeding life" as some sort of atonement? In no way does that bring all the people she's killed back or actually atone for her crimes. A serial killer shouldn't be allowed to get out of jail by doing community service.

Being given infinite power and immortality as a "punishment" for mass murder is absurd. It's like electing Jeffrey Daumer as President of the United States of America so that he can finally be in a position to do some good in order to get out of jail. Kerrigan should have been executed in front of a jury after her actions in HoTS.

In a real context, Raynor wouldn't have been in love with a mass murderer. In a real context, Artanis wouldn't bow down to someone who razed entire planets in the last game just to get revenge on one guy. In a real context, multiple characters would have called her out for her crimes and taken issue with her being given even more power given her complete and utter lack of restraint or judicious use of power. A benevolent being like Ouros sure as hell shouldn't have been ok with that.

Again, it's not about grim dark or treating Kerrigan like shit just because. It's about the lack of realism in an already fantastical setting.

The seeding life shows that she's doing the opposite of what she's done her whole life. Now she's creating life rather than destroying it. Kerrigan actually did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me" scene. She had no reason to believe jim would ever forgive her (in fact she's shocked when he does show up to help her). I agree that Kerrigan should have worked more to earn redemption but I think that spending millennia creating life and restoring barren worlds is a step in the direction.

The real problem is that in Heart the crew wanted her to be vengeful warrior and conflicted anti hero at the same time. As such it was a mess.

KaiserStratosTygo

11-18-2015, 08:09 PM

The seeding life shows that she's doing the opposite of what she's done her whole life. Now she's creating life rather than destroying it. Kerrigan actually did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me" scene. She had no reason to believe jim would ever forgive her (in fact she's shocked when he does show up to help her). I agree that Kerrigan should have worked more to earn redemption but I think that spending millennia creating life and restoring barren worlds is a step in the direction.

The real problem is that in Heart the crew wanted her to be vengeful warrior and conflicted anti hero at the same time. As such it was a mess.

" did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me""

She seems pretty much the same to me, only wanting Raynor's D a bit more I guess.

ragnarok

11-18-2015, 10:24 PM

" did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me""

She seems pretty much the same to me, only wanting Raynor's D a bit more I guess.

It only shows in the end she cannot do it without him.

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The seeding life shows that she's doing the opposite of what she's done her whole life. Now she's creating life rather than destroying it. Kerrigan actually did start to change for the better after the "Believe in me" scene. She had no reason to believe jim would ever forgive her (in fact she's shocked when he does show up to help her). I agree that Kerrigan should have worked more to earn redemption but I think that spending millennia creating life and restoring barren worlds is a step in the direction.

The real problem is that in Heart the crew wanted her to be vengeful warrior and conflicted anti hero at the same time. As such it was a mess.

Same here. As I saw it, Kerrigan had expected that even by agreeing to Valerian's request in the last HotS mission, Raynor would interpret it as just another manipulation, as she had done so in the past.

HotS suffered the inconsistency matter. Either made her vengeful OR try to get redemption. Usually when you try to mix the two, it satisfies no one

DarthYam

11-18-2015, 11:41 PM

It only shows in the end she cannot do it without him.

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Same here. As I saw it, Kerrigan had expected that even by agreeing to Valerian's request in the last HotS mission, Raynor would interpret it as just another manipulation, as she had done so in the past.

HotS suffered the inconsistency matter. Either made her vengeful OR try to get redemption. Usually when you try to mix the two, it satisfies no one

I interpreted Kerrigan's actions as genuinely deciding to spare the civilians because it was right. I've said elsewhere that after Umoja she's basically obsessed with revenge and will do whatever it takes to get it. After getting called out and forced to admit she shitting on Raynor's memory she starts to analyze what she's doing. When Raynor rejects her she finally realizes just how selfish and myopic she's been and tries to do what's right. If Kerrigan had just steamrolled civilians and fallen into Mengsk's trap Raynor would've left her to her fate. Because she chose the harder but morally correct choice she Raynor saved her. Heart was really the weak link in the trilogy.

FanaticTemplar

11-18-2015, 11:51 PM

Hm, I'd say that an executional problem -- it depends on how it's written. But some people are more free by being restrained. For example, Kerri, at the end of Brood War, is a slave to her own passions. And since at that point she's technically accomplished her goals, she has no future. Neither does she have friends, a career, a love, or anyone around besides mindless monsters. She's even stuck in a place where there's no art, architecture, theaters, shops, restaurants, or beach resorts. There's nowhere to go. Kerrigan's "free" and has power, but she really has nothing at all.

But hey, I'm open to other endings. Anything realistic with clear implications for both Kerrigan and everyone else works. Heck, I wish SC2 was less focused on her. That way her character wouldn't have been stretched beyond believability and she'd still have character potential. My main point is that Kerri should just have an ultimate fate that isn't things ending well for her, or her and Jimmy running off into the sunset. Gag.

No, that's actually what I meant. If in Brood War they gave her ultimate perceived freedom and yet she was still a prisoner of her fears and deeds and wounds, there's nowhere further to take that character arc. At least, as far as I can perceive. She's done. So either you take a new perspective, or you remove her from the story, and that's why I say I would have liked her riding off into the sunset with Raynor at the end of Wings of Liberty: the happy ending - and the journey - aren't hers there, they're Raynor's.

Nissa

11-19-2015, 12:44 AM

No, that's actually what I meant. If in Brood War they gave her ultimate perceived freedom and yet she was still a prisoner of her fears and deeds and wounds, there's nowhere further to take that character arc. At least, as far as I can perceive. She's done. So either you take a new perspective, or you remove her from the story, and that's why I say I would have liked her riding off into the sunset with Raynor at the end of Wings of Liberty: the happy ending - and the journey - aren't hers there, they're Raynor's.

I disagree that there's nothing that can be done with the arc. Quite the opposite, actually. There's a choice for her, Zerg or human, and her vacillations as she attempts to choose a side -- or perhaps she ignores the choice entirely. There's forty bajillion directions for this to go in. Mental entrapment is a whole 'nother beast from being externally controlled. It's the theme of getting what you wished for, only to find out that it didn't make you happy at all. Just taken to an extreme because of the fact Kerrigan has affected so much of the K Sector. That screams plot potential.

You do have a point when it comes to Raynor's story. Unfortunately, fact of the matter is, SC2 wasn't Raynor's story. Even in WoL he's primarily driven by saving Kerri -- moping for her, allying with a potential enemy to save her, killing a friend to save her, etc. Now, if they'd written it more to the degree that Raynor's role in the story had more real importance, rather than him just doing whatever it took to get Kerri to the places the plot wanted her, then I might see what you were saying.

Of course, your statement presumes Raynor's version of a happy ending is spending it with Kerrigan. Even if their relationship had been established as a romance in SC1, what she's done since then ultimately destroys any love a realistic character would have for her. It's entirely possible that a happy ending is out of Raynor's reach, given his alcoholism and depression. The only real happy ending he could have is one where the pain in his heart could be healed in some way. And that's not merely a matter of having a girl -- dude has lost his original home, been betrayed by Mengsk, failed to save Kerri, and watched most of his Protoss friends die. Any real man who'd gone through all that is bound to feel like garbage. Serious PTSD. A major thing that pisses me off about SC2 is that they fail to show the extent of Raynor's extremely likely disillusion with life.

ragnarok

11-19-2015, 01:32 AM

I interpreted Kerrigan's actions as genuinely deciding to spare the civilians because it was right. I've said elsewhere that after Umoja she's basically obsessed with revenge and will do whatever it takes to get it. After getting called out and forced to admit she shitting on Raynor's memory she starts to analyze what she's doing. When Raynor rejects her she finally realizes just how selfish and myopic she's been and tries to do what's right. If Kerrigan had just steamrolled civilians and fallen into Mengsk's trap Raynor would've left her to her fate. Because she chose the harder but morally correct choice she Raynor saved her. Heart was really the weak link in the trilogy.

But as I saw it, it was still only for Raynor's sake. If Raynor HAD died, she could have cared less what happened to the people of Korhal. She endorsed Valerian as the new Dominion leader and allowed the Dominion to survive because she realized if she still refused to change from what she's been doing, then it would only prove Raynor's efforts had been a complete waste because in the end she had learned NOTHING.

DarthYam

11-19-2015, 01:34 AM

I disagree that there's nothing that can be done with the arc. Quite the opposite, actually. There's a choice for her, Zerg or human, and her vacillations as she attempts to choose a side -- or perhaps she ignores the choice entirely. There's forty bajillion directions for this to go in. Mental entrapment is a whole 'nother beast from being externally controlled. It's the theme of getting what you wished for, only to find out that it didn't make you happy at all. Just taken to an extreme because of the fact Kerrigan has affected so much of the K Sector. That screams plot potential.

You do have a point when it comes to Raynor's story. Unfortunately, fact of the matter is, SC2 wasn't Raynor's story. Even in WoL he's primarily driven by saving Kerri -- moping for her, allying with a potential enemy to save her, killing a friend to save her, etc. Now, if they'd written it more to the degree that Raynor's role in the story had more real importance, rather than him just doing whatever it took to get Kerri to the places the plot wanted her, then I might see what you were saying.

Of course, your statement presumes Raynor's version of a happy ending is spending it with Kerrigan. Even if their relationship had been established as a romance in SC1, what she's done since then ultimately destroys any love a realistic character would have for her. It's entirely possible that a happy ending is out of Raynor's reach, given his alcoholism and depression. The only real happy ending he could have is one where the pain in his heart could be healed in some way. And that's not merely a matter of having a girl -- dude has lost his original home, been betrayed by Mengsk, failed to save Kerri, and watched most of his Protoss friends die. Any real man who'd gone through all that is bound to feel like garbage. Serious PTSD. A major thing that pisses me off about SC2 is that they fail to show the extent of Raynor's extremely likely disillusion with life.

Except that Kerrigan's behavior made no real sense. She was a complex figure in 1. In brood war she's a two dimensional villain who almost always commits needlessly cruel acts of sadism on both mengsk and the protoss (who never wronged her aside from tassadar out playing her, meaning her reaction was disproportionate at BEST). In Brood War she wasn't deep. A more logical explanation is similar to charles whitman (The guy who killed 32 people in texas in 1966. Whitman had a tumor in the part of the brain that controlled fear and rage. While he still made his choices the tumor made it easier to embrace the darkness within. Something could happen with Kerrigan (The infestation amplified things like rage and fear, suppressed things like empathy and kindness, while Amon's taint redirected her anger into something cold blooded and sadistic rather than flaming wrath.)

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Also the entire point of WOL is Raynor overcoming his cynicism and giving a shit again. Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

ragnarok

11-19-2015, 01:48 AM

Also the entire point of WOL is Raynor overcoming his cynicism and giving a shit again. Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

Except he was struggling with how to live with himself if he did, because he still blamed himself for what happened on Tarsonis. Then when Zeratul came along and told him about the prophecy and not to do it, it tore Raynor up even more because he didn't know just WHAT he was supposed to do. This conflict continued all the way until Valerian explained what the artifact might be able to do to.

Turalyon

11-19-2015, 03:08 AM

She was a complex figure in 1.

Not really. All we see of Kerrigan in Sc1 is Rebel Yell. Even then, it's not much. She's loyal to Mengsk despite doubting him until she then becomes lost to the Zerg. There's nothing more to her since all the stuff that occurs later as Infested Kerrigan don't really count because she's under the control of the Overmind. If she's not herself in BW due to infestation making her crazy/Amon corrupted, then she must be clearly even more "not herself" when the Overmind was still around.

Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

I sometimes wonder if the story in WoL would've hit harder had they/Valerian not revealed the artifact would give Kerrigan her humanity back - that it just would've killed Zerg and that was it. It would've helped sell the idea that Raynor still wanted to kill Kerrigan to keep continuity of before and it would've made that last cinematic with Raynor's killing Tychus more impactful because up until he actaully goes to protect Kerri, you wouldn't know if he actually would've done it or not.

ragnarok

11-19-2015, 04:04 AM

I sometimes wonder if the story in WoL would've hit harder had they/Valerian not revealed the artifact would give Kerrigan her humanity back - that it just would've killed Zerg and that was it. It would've helped sell the idea that Raynor still wanted to kill Kerrigan to keep continuity of before and it would've made that last cinematic with Raynor's killing Tychus more impactful because up until he actaully goes to protect Kerri, you wouldn't know if he actually would've done it or not.

It would have left Raynor to wallow in his despair even more. As I see it, this would make things easier for Tychus to convince him to kill her. This was somewhat explained in the interviews WAY back when WoL was out, but before we got any info for HotS. Tychus had basically been convinced that in the end, Raynor would get over it because he would understand Kerrigan died years ago on Tarsonis. Yes in the short term he'd be devastated, but he'd understand it was for the best. And this remained Tychus's mentality even by the beginning of "All In", because no one knew if the artifact would really work or not. However if we go by what you said and if Valerian never revealed that, I believe the first thing Raynor would do is ask Dr. Hanson (if she's still aboard the Hyperion) to study the artifact a bit more, and see if it's possible to kill the Zerg in her, but at the same time leave the human part intact. The problem is that I don't think she would have been able to give him an answer. As far as Hanson was concerned (if she's still aboard the Hyperion), she would easily come to the conclusion that the artifact was designed to kill Xel'Naga creations, but leave non-Xel'Naga creations alone. There's absolutely no way to tell what it would do in a hybrid case like Kerrigan's.

Turalyon

11-19-2015, 05:42 AM

It would have left Raynor to wallow in his despair even more. As I see it, this would make things easier for Tychus to convince him to kill her.

Not sure about Raynor "wallowing in despair even more" since he already feels and knows that Kerrigan can't be saved and is not expecting a solution to be realistically possible. Part of his ongoing malaise in WoL is that in addition to feeling some guilt and shame at not being able to help Kerri back then, he can't even get any sort of closure by killing the monster she has become due to a strict inability to do so. The reveal that the artifact would be just an effective anti-Zerg weapon would therefore galvanise Raynor to still pursue ending Kerrigan since he never had a good opportunity such as this before and it'd be cathartic for him/be a form of (dark) redemption for allowing himself to be tricked.

The unforeseen deinfestation that occurs would then give Raynor a second opportunity for redemption but in a much more potentially positive note. He doesn't necessarily need to protect her from Tychus at that point if he has become fully embittered and cynical (as he pretends to be) but that he actually does protect her from Tychus in the end would then be seen as the climax of Raynor's regaining his positive outlook again.

This way, the majority of the story would keep a stronger continuity with what came before in BW, allow for more sustained tension in the story (since once Valerian reveals Kerrigan can be deinfested in the WoL we got, everyone knows exactly that Raynor will protect Kerrigan from dying if given the chance) and gives more weight to Raynor's decision to protect Kerrigan from Tychus.

Nissa

11-19-2015, 09:32 AM

Except that Kerrigan's behavior made no real sense. She was a complex figure in 1. In brood war she's a two dimensional villain who almost always commits needlessly cruel acts of sadism on both mengsk and the protoss....

Did you see the thread where we were talking about Kerrigan's motivations? I can't remember which one that was. In any case, in it, we'd discussed how Kerrigan was acting in BW in a way that would allow her to remain outside Overmind control as well as satisfy her sick desires for revenge. We also pointed out how there was a difference between how Kerri treated people who had personally affected her, and those that were simply in her way. She was willing to let Mengsk and Zeratul live, because torturing them was more fun than simply killing them off. Aldaris and DuGalle, on the other hand, were just people in the way, and she disposed of them quickly.

In other words, simply being a bad guy doesn't make Kerri simplistic. Her needlessly cruel acts were not needless in her own mind, because her actions were an expression of her anguish at having a past of being nothing more than various people's pawns.

Also the entire point of WOL is Raynor overcoming his cynicism and giving a shit again. Blizzard stated that the original intent was that Raynor did want to kill Kerrigan. When Valerian presented him with the very real chance that the artifact could give her her humanity back (and thus allow rehabilitation) Raynor had to choose between being cynical and being hopeful. Ultimately he was sick of living in despair and chose to consider the possibility that kerrigan was savable

Again, that's not how the story was presented. Raynor was acting in a way that gave Kerrigan what she wanted, and Kerrigan was making her own choices to achieve what she alone wanted. Clearly she's a bigger driving force in the plot than good ol' Jimmy boy.

FanaticTemplar

11-19-2015, 11:27 AM

I disagree that there's nothing that can be done with the arc. Quite the opposite, actually. There's a choice for her, Zerg or human, and her vacillations as she attempts to choose a side -- or perhaps she ignores the choice entirely.

That's not the same arc though. I did say you could go in different directions.

You do have a point when it comes to Raynor's story. Unfortunately, fact of the matter is, SC2 wasn't Raynor's story. Even in WoL he's primarily driven by saving Kerri -- moping for her, allying with a potential enemy to save her, killing a friend to save her, etc. Now, if they'd written it more to the degree that Raynor's role in the story had more real importance, rather than him just doing whatever it took to get Kerri to the places the plot wanted her, then I might see what you were saying.

Completely disagree. Raynor in Wings of Liberty is driven by Kerrigan the same way he's driven by the Xel'naga Artifact, it's only relevant for what it means to him. It's what Raynor feels about it, what he's willing to do for it, and how that shapes his relationship with the other characters.

Of course, your statement presumes Raynor's version of a happy ending is spending it with Kerrigan. Even if their relationship had been established as a romance in SC1, what she's done since then ultimately destroys any love a realistic character would have for her.

Not at all. Kerrigan's the victim, Raynor blames Mengsk for everything. And himself. Which is a major part of the issue. He can't give up on Kerrigan without giving up on himself. Which he sort of has at the beginning of the series, also coinciding with the period where he thought he'd have to kill her. When he gets a chance to save her is when he gets more driven, but also more desperate and single-minded.

It's entirely possible that a happy ending is out of Raynor's reach, given his alcoholism and depression. The only real happy ending he could have is one where the pain in his heart could be healed in some way. And that's not merely a matter of having a girl -- dude has lost his original home, been betrayed by Mengsk, failed to save Kerri, and watched most of his Protoss friends die. Any real man who'd gone through all that is bound to feel like garbage. Serious PTSD. A major thing that pisses me off about SC2 is that they fail to show the extent of Raynor's extremely likely disillusion with life.

That goes for every character in the series though.

I sometimes wonder if the story in WoL would've hit harder had they/Valerian not revealed the artifact would give Kerrigan her humanity back - that it just would've killed Zerg and that was it. It would've helped sell the idea that Raynor still wanted to kill Kerrigan to keep continuity of before and it would've made that last cinematic with Raynor's killing Tychus more impactful because up until he actaully goes to protect Kerri, you wouldn't know if he actually would've done it or not.

Not sure that would've been enough for Raynor to consider allying with a Mengsk, though.

Nissa

11-19-2015, 02:14 PM

That's not the same arc though. I did say you could go in different directions.

We're talking in terms of potentia, here. I'm just discussing my ideas for what I think Kerrigan's fate should be. Feel free to mention your own.

Completely disagree. Raynor in Wings of Liberty is driven by Kerrigan the same way he's driven by the Xel'naga Artifact, it's only relevant for what it means to him. It's what Raynor feels about it, what he's willing to do for it, and how that shapes his relationship with the other characters.

And I disagree again. What it means to him (ignoring SC/BW) is its ability to save Kerri. He's doing it for her, even against the objections of his crew. He's not making decisions about his own life, but rather what he thinks is best for her. Kerrigan also cares and acts about what she wants. Thus, her desires are the real focus here.

But I'll grant you that Raynor's motivations are pretty wonky in WoL. His attention is divided between earning cash, starting a rebellion, rescuing civilians, and all the Kerri drama. While the Kerri stuff was his primary focus, his disjointed, truncated efforts in the other three areas (he didn't take down Mengsk's government or create a replacement, the rescuing thing was awkward because of the strange way Blizz treated the plot choice, and he didn't actually earn much in the way of cash) meant that his own personal activities were essentially sacrificed so that he could have the chance to go save his Zerg lady. All that other stuff was plot filler; excuses for players to have certain types of missions. As opposed to Kerrigan's activities, all of which ultimately led up to her fate in LotV.

Not at all. Kerrigan's the victim, Raynor blames Mengsk for everything. And himself. Which is a major part of the issue. He can't give up on Kerrigan without giving up on himself. Which he sort of has at the beginning of the series, also coinciding with the period where he thought he'd have to kill her. When he gets a chance to save her is when he gets more driven, but also more desperate and single-minded.

This is pure SC2 retcon. BW Raynor totally gave up on her when Fenix died (and it's crackheaded that he suddenly cared about that again in HotS). Probably already gave up on himself, too, what with losing so much more than just a girl.

No no, remember, it's not your or my perspective that matters. It's Raynor's. Would a man realistically see her as a victim, particularly when he isn't privy to all the information the player gets to see? Also, is Raynor willing to disregard justice for the sake of saving her? While I'd be willing to believe he might go back on his vow to kill her, we have to ask ourselves if he wouldn't allow her to stand trial, or if he was capable/willing to get her if she were captured by others. Kerrigan is guilty of a lot, and he's not going to wisk her away into the sunset. Even if he could disregard his vow to kill her (it would have been delicious if he didn't), their relationship was not a romance, nor was she his only failure.

That goes for every character in the series though.

Not really. Certainly not equally, in any case. Raynor, more than any other character, has had a complete line of failures. He couldn't save Mar Sara, his anti-Confederacy actions ended up putting a tyrant on the throne, he couldn't stop Kerrigan from becoming infested, and his actions in BW ultimately helped Kerri get what she wanted while tearing down humanity at the same time. The only real positive to his career is his help in defending Aiur, and that planet was ultimately lost. He then couldn't save Fenix, and was at that point powerless to perform his vow to kill Kerri.

The only character that comes close in that regard is Zeratul, who is responsible for helping the Zerg find Aiur and killing the second Overmind for Kerri. He, however, has motivation to go forward in investigating the hybrids. Mengsk is a psychotic optimist, and is only at the end of BW realizing that he needs to get serious. He's still got power left to fight on, and his optimism has only taken a hit. Aldaris always stubbornly refused to believe in his own ineffectivity, whether he had a right to or no. Artie boy is still youthful and stubborn enough to trust in the Protoss without bitterness. Fenix is the definition of soldiering on. Raszagal could accept her death with hope for the future. Stukov is pragmatic and not as emotionally vulnerable as Raynor.

SC2 aside, of course.

ragnarok

11-19-2015, 03:37 PM

In other words, simply being a bad guy doesn't make Kerri simplistic. Her needlessly cruel acts were not needless in her own mind, because her actions were an expression of her anguish at having a past of being nothing more than various people's pawns.

And that's something we see even in real life. If you've been forced to spend way too long under someone else's boot, and that person is a power abuser and everything, it'll cause you to lash out in anger at other people. I've seen it happen. The only thing Blizzard did was take this to a much bigger scale.

This was exactly what happened in Kerrigan's case. After the betrayal on Tarsonis, let's just say she felt humanity was too corrupt and therefore unworthy to survive. Even by the time of HotS it was the case. To her, at least the Raiders made efforts to try toppling Mengsk, whereas everyone else in the Dominion simply stood behind him like a mindless donkey or something. Thus as far as she was concerned, it wasn't her problem if they get caught in the crossfire. After all, she felt her actions would be justified because of their inability to do anything about Mengsk.

You have to remember this is the EXACT same mentality the western allies had towards the Germans when the war ended in 1945, certainly so after the discovery of the concentration camps. To them, the German people as a whole were responsible because they allowed Hitler to carry out such whims, were incapable of checking his perversions, who didn't rise up against him, and who showed indifference to brutality.

The difference here is in the lore, we never really got to see how the Dominion people themselves (on the core worlds) were treated under Mengsk's rule

FanaticTemplar

11-19-2015, 06:39 PM

And I disagree again. What it means to him (ignoring SC/BW) is its ability to save Kerri. He's doing it for her, even against the objections of his crew. He's not making decisions about his own life, but rather what he thinks is best for her. Kerrigan also cares and acts about what she wants. Thus, her desires are the real focus here.

You are wrong. This isn't some interpretative thing either, this is stated flat-out in Wings of Liberty, multiple times:

Matt Horner: "Apparently she was something else, before the Zerg took her, turned her into that."
Tychus Findlay: "And Jimmy feels responsible."
~ Queen of Blades

Matt Horner: "What happened to Kerrigan wasn't your fault."
Jim Raynor: "Which part? Where she got left behind? Or where she murdered eight billion people?"
~ Who We Choose to Be

Arcturus Mengsk: "[...] even you've got to realise that treacherous bitch cannot be saved, and neither can you."
~ Dangerous Game

All of it from cinematics in the main plotline too, not any of those subquest branches. What Kerrigan wants doesn't enter into it, at all. Hell, people don't even know what she wanted in Wings of Liberty.

This is pure SC2 retcon. BW Raynor totally gave up on her when Fenix died (and it's crackheaded that he suddenly cared about that again in HotS). Probably already gave up on himself, too, what with losing so much more than just a girl.

No no, remember, it's not your or my perspective that matters. It's Raynor's. Would a man realistically see her as a victim, particularly when he isn't privy to all the information the player gets to see? Also, is Raynor willing to disregard justice for the sake of saving her? While I'd be willing to believe he might go back on his vow to kill her, we have to ask ourselves if he wouldn't allow her to stand trial, or if he was capable/willing to get her if she were captured by others. Kerrigan is guilty of a lot, and he's not going to wisk her away into the sunset. Even if he could disregard his vow to kill her (it would have been delicious if he didn't), their relationship was not a romance, nor was she his only failure.

No. I can corroborate my claims with quotes - from StarCraft and Brood War no less:

Raynor blames Mengsk for everything...
"You mean like you sacrificed Kerrigan?" ~ The Hammer Falls
"Shut up, Arcturus. If I wanted your damn opinion, I would've beaten it out of ya'. And in case you forgot, you're the reason she became what she is in the first place!" ~ The Kel-Morian Combine

... and he blames himself
"Damnit! I shouldn't have let her go alone." ~ The Hammer Falls

I'll also add that Raynor's suicidal need to save her is also established in those games, both in his risking the Dominion and the Swarm based on nothing but dreams of her calling to him from Char in Agent of the Swarm, and in his stupid need to help her against the United Earth Directorate in Queen of Blades despite knowing what she'd become.

Your assertion that he thoroughly changes his character and opinions - conveniently, after he disappears from the game - is completely unsubstantiated.

Also, is Raynor willing to disregard justice for the sake of saving her? While I'd be willing to believe he might go back on his vow to kill her, we have to ask ourselves if he wouldn't allow her to stand trial, or if he was capable/willing to get her if she were captured by others. Kerrigan is guilty of a lot, and he's not going to wisk her away into the sunset.

This is complete nonsense. Trial by whom? Which character doesn't have blood on their hands? Is Raynor not responsible for the deaths of multitudes for his commanding role in the bloody rebellion that put mad dictator Arcturus Mengsk in power? Maybe he should get his original Protoss best friend Tassadar, the eternally revered hero, to judge her. Presumably his responsibility in three Terran planetary genocides - including Mar Sara, Raynor's own planet - would give him great perspective into the crimes of galactic butchers.

Not really. Certainly not equally, in any case.

Not equally, no. And Raynor is the only one to have fallen into a mess of alcoholism and depression countered only by a futile lust for revenge. He is the most thoroughly affected of the characters, which is, as you've just pointed out, exactly what we should expect. So characterisation seems to be spot on.

Nissa

11-19-2015, 07:00 PM

You are wrong. This isn't some interpretative thing either, this is stated flat-out in Wings of Liberty, multiple times:

Matt Horner: "Apparently she was something else, before the Zerg took her, turned her into that."
Tychus Findlay: "And Jimmy feels responsible."
~ Queen of Blades

Matt Horner: "What happened to Kerrigan wasn't your fault."
Jim Raynor: "Which part? Where she got left behind? Or where she murdered eight billion people?"
~ Who We Choose to Be

Arcturus Mengsk: "[...] even you've got to realise that treacherous bitch cannot be saved, and neither can you."
~ Dangerous Game

All of it from cinematics in the main plotline too, not any of those subquest branches. What Kerrigan wants doesn't enter into it, at all. Hell, people don't even know what she wanted in Wings of Liberty.

Okay, fine, I phrased it wrong. Raynor is still obsessed with her throughout the game, and considers her stuff priority over his own interests, or the interests of his men. She's not on screen, but she's the focus.

No. I can corroborate my claims with quotes - from StarCraft and Brood War no less:

So? While Raynor certainly knows she's been victimized, and he does blame himself, neither of those are my points. He doesn't see her as a victim, because he's seen what she's become. It's way past victimhood now, and she has become something evil. You can't cite him rescuing her on Char as a reason, because that was before Kerrigan did anything as a Zerg. That, and him supporting her in BW was always done with suspicion. And is something of a plot hole -- at some point he really should have realized that killing humans to make the Zerg stronger so that they could kill more humans is pretty dumb. As is, Raynor didn't trust her even then. Nor is there the slightest evidence Raynor cared about her romantically. That, and he was bound to find out what Kerrigan did to the Protoss.

What all that boils down to is this: It's freaking stupid to have Raynor romantically interested in a mutated, selfish, manipulative violent mass murderer.

This is complete nonsense. Trial by whom? Which character doesn't have blood on their hands? Is Raynor not responsible for the deaths of multitudes for his commanding role in the bloody rebellion that put mad dictator Arcturus Mengsk in power? Maybe he should get his original Protoss best friend Tassadar, the eternally revered hero, to judge her. Presumably his responsibility in three Terran planetary genocides - including Mar Sara, Raynor's own planet - would give him great perspective into the crimes of galactic butchers.

I was using trial as a hypothetical, in the sense that Raynor might have felt that Kerrigan deserved to face her crimes. It has nothing to do with anyone else's crimes, or the larger philosophic questions. People can't make pragmatic decisions on that sort of thing. Pragmatically speaking, the major human governments and Protoss might forgive each other in the interest of surviving. Politics! Read about Yalta sometime. In any case, while what you're saying here is important, it's more important for historians in the K Sector's future rather than people currently having to choose between bad and worse.

Not equally, no. And Raynor is the only one to have fallen into a mess of alcoholism and depression countered only by a futile lust for revenge. He is the most thoroughly affected of the characters, which is, as you've just pointed out, exactly what we should expect. So characterisation seems to be spot on.

Eh...not really. People aren't just one characteristic. I mean, that would be acceptable if he were a background character, but Raynor's up front. He has more than one issue going on. That, and they didn't go far enough with his major depression. It would've been great if he were on the edge of despair, and the people around him had to support him and save him from his severe depression.

While Blizz did remember the depression, they didn't remember that it's unrealistic for Raynor to love Kerrigan. They also made him kill 'Toss for money (he didn't immediately know that the Tal'darim were bad) and spout generic "heroic" dialogue. Gone is the redneck we know and love. Though, to be fair, they didn't mangle him as bad as Zeratul.

DarthYam

11-19-2015, 07:50 PM

Did you see the thread where we were talking about Kerrigan's motivations? I can't remember which one that was. In any case, in it, we'd discussed how Kerrigan was acting in BW in a way that would allow her to remain outside Overmind control as well as satisfy her sick desires for revenge. We also pointed out how there was a difference between how Kerri treated people who had personally affected her, and those that were simply in her way. She was willing to let Mengsk and Zeratul live, because torturing them was more fun than simply killing them off. Aldaris and DuGalle, on the other hand, were just people in the way, and she disposed of them quickly.

In other words, simply being a bad guy doesn't make Kerri simplistic. Her needlessly cruel acts were not needless in her own mind, because her actions were an expression of her anguish at having a past of being nothing more than various people's pawns.

Again, that's not how the story was presented. Raynor was acting in a way that gave Kerrigan what she wanted, and Kerrigan was making her own choices to achieve what she alone wanted. Clearly she's a bigger driving force in the plot than good ol' Jimmy boy.

It doesn't make sense. In Rebel Yell she opposes using the zerg even on the people who made her life miserable for a decade (the confederacy had her between 8 and 18 years old). She went along with Antiga prime because that was on soldiers (but even than she feels dirty) and on tarsonis she didn't know until Duke activated them (implying she wouldn't have supported it if Mengsk told her before hand) even then she only goes along with it because she still naively thinks Mengsk will do the right thing in the end.

In BW she just goes over the top in making Zeratul and the toss suffer even though they didn't do anything. That's what I mean when Kerrigan is a comic villain. She enjoyed the act of hurting fenix and razsegal and twisting the knife in. The idea that she would just decide that hurting people was fun after getting infested and free is just.....stupid.

NikoMyCousin

11-19-2015, 08:15 PM

In BW she just goes over the top in making Zeratul and the toss suffer even though they didn't do anything. That's what I mean when Kerrigan is a comic villain. She enjoyed the act of hurting fenix and razsegal and twisting the knife in. The idea that she would just decide that hurting people was fun after getting infested and free is just.....stupid.

And that, Zeratul, is a better revenge than I could've ever dreamed of

Kerrigan in BW and Wings of Liberty had quotes that didn't even make sense. What did Zeratul do to her or the Zerg for there to be revenge?

Visions of Khas

11-19-2015, 08:56 PM

Kerrigan in BW and Wings of Liberty had quotes that didn't even make sense. What did Zeratul do to her or the Zerg for there to be revenge?
To explain Kerrigan's role and personality in HotS, I've gone with the theory that she's been an abused and neglected child her entire life without any sense of agency. Finally, she is given extraordinary power and freedom, with all inhibitions erased by the Zerg. From a twisted perspective such as hers, the simple act of defiance deserves retribution.

FanaticTemplar

11-19-2015, 09:10 PM

Okay, fine, I phrased it wrong. Raynor is still obsessed with her throughout the game, and considers her stuff priority over his own interests, or the interests of his men. She's not on screen, but she's the focus.

Right, but she's just the driving element. She's like the One Ring and Raynor is Frodo. The story's not actually about the Ring, but about the decisions and journey Frodo makes because he came into possession of it.

So? While Raynor certainly knows she's been victimized, and he does blame himself, neither of those are my points. He doesn't see her as a victim, because he's seen what she's become.

So? If your dog gets rabies and needs to be put down, then it needs to be put down, but you don't start hating it.

You can't cite him rescuing her on Char as a reason, because that was before Kerrigan did anything as a Zerg.

I cited that as precedent for putting himself and his crew in ridiculous danger out of a desperate need to assuage his guilt.

Nor is there the slightest evidence Raynor cared about her romantically.

Sure there is, but even if you want to believe there wasn't, romance has pretty much no importance to the story of Wings of Liberty.

What all that boils down to is this: It's freaking stupid to have Raynor romantically interested in a mutated, selfish, manipulative violent mass murderer.

But it's not stupid at all to have him be romantically interested in an idealised fantasy of a woman who was taken away from him by cruel betrayal. She's the one Raynor is trying to get back, he's certainly not interested in the genocidal maniac Queen of Blades in Wings of Liberty.

I was using trial as a hypothetical, in the sense that Raynor might have felt that Kerrigan deserved to face her crimes. It has nothing to do with anyone else's crimes, or the larger philosophic questions. People can't make pragmatic decisions on that sort of thing. Pragmatically speaking, the major human governments and Protoss might forgive each other in the interest of surviving. Politics! Read about Yalta sometime. In any case, while what you're saying here is important, it's more important for historians in the K Sector's future rather than people currently having to choose between bad and worse.

No, what I'm saying is very simple: Raynor was best buddies with the guy who committed planetary genocide multiple times and killed pretty much everyone Raynor knew on Mar Sara. And Tassadar wasn't possessed at the time. This whole "Kerrigan did things that were WRONG and Raynor should never be able to forgive her!" thing is completely absurd.

Eh...not really. People aren't just one characteristic. I mean, that would be acceptable if he were a background character, but Raynor's up front. He has more than one issue going on. That, and they didn't go far enough with his major depression. It would've been great if he were on the edge of despair, and the people around him had to support him and save him from his severe depression.

No it wouldn't. Seriously, one man's battle against crippling depression handled in a realistic way is not the story for any kind of RTS wargame. And it certainly doesn't fit with the story of the original games.

ragnarok

11-19-2015, 09:16 PM

To explain Kerrigan's role and personality in HotS, I've gone with the theory that she's been an abused and neglected child her entire life without any sense of agency. Finally, she is given extraordinary power and freedom, with all inhibitions erased by the Zerg. From a twisted perspective such as hers, the simple act of defiance deserves retribution.

That's how it always works in real life. When you've been abused your whole life and then suddenly turned loose, you go crazy with power right away, and that can take years to fix, sometimes it's not even fixable.

- - - Updated - - -

In BW she just goes over the top in making Zeratul and the toss suffer even though they didn't do anything. That's what I mean when Kerrigan is a comic villain. She enjoyed the act of hurting fenix and razsegal and twisting the knife in. The idea that she would just decide that hurting people was fun after getting infested and free is just.....stupid.

Not that, DarthYam. This is what happens when you go through a life of abuse. You tend to lash out at others, even those who never once wronged you, simply because you now have the power to do something about it. Going crazy with power happens a lot in this case, I've seen it happen in real life.

Nissa

11-19-2015, 09:53 PM

Right, but she's just the driving element. She's like the One Ring and Raynor is Frodo. The story's not actually about the Ring, but about the decisions and journey Frodo makes because he came into possession of it.

Again, that's not how it was presented. Kerrigan motivated WoL, turned HotS into a romance novel, and stole the show from the Protoss by becoming the Xel'Naga. Let's face it. Though other characters were used, it was all about Kerri here.

So? If your dog gets rabies and needs to be put down, then it needs to be put down, but you don't start hating it.

I question the appropriateness of comparing a rabid dog to a murderous woman. Also, clearly Raynor hated her in BW. If you can't see that, well, there's nothing I can do.

I cited that as precedent for putting himself and his crew in ridiculous danger out of a desperate need to assuage his guilt.

Okay. Still a Kerri driven story.

Sure there is, but even if you want to believe there wasn't, romance has pretty much no importance to the story of Wings of Liberty.

Not true. Raynor's behaviors and the way people reacted to his gloom about Kerri indicates that he was shown to have feelings for her. I would say nothing on the matter if HotS hadn't turned into a romance novel, but in hindsight it's pretty obvious that the two were being set up that way.

On the other hand, WoL was pretty scatterbrained, so not much of anything was of any importance. Especially since none of Raynor's actions other than getting the artifact and de-infesting Kerrigan had any affect at all on the later games. Seriously, there wasn't even any consequences for that whole Mengsk controversy thing.

But it's not stupid at all to have him be romantically interested in an idealised fantasy of a woman who was taken away from him by cruel betrayal. She's the one Raynor is trying to get back, he's certainly not interested in the genocidal maniac Queen of Blades in Wings of Liberty.

I honestly don't believe he could ever see her that way again. Not least because their relationship in SC was never romantic, so there's no foundation for falling in love with an illusion. Moreover, I hate how his characterization is suddenly all about her. In SC/BW, he was a guy desperately trying to get things right, only to make mistake after mistake. Imo, he's been so burnt by now that I don't think Raynor would trust much of anyone, besides possibly Protoss. It's not merely about being burned by Kerri, but also Mengsk and the Confederacy. He lives in a world where near about everything is against him. That's so interesting, and is almost entirely ignored.

No, what I'm saying is very simple: Raynor was best buddies with the guy who committed planetary genocide multiple times and killed pretty much everyone Raynor knew on Mar Sara. And Tassadar wasn't possessed at the time. This whole "Kerrigan did things that were WRONG and Raynor should never be able to forgive her!" thing is completely absurd.

1. Tassadar was repentant. Kerri was not.
2. Tassadar was chaotic in his pursuit of good. Kerri was violent in her pursuit of personal goals.
3. Tassadar restrained himself despite his orders. Kerri relished in punishing her enemies.
4. Tassadar showed himself eager to change when confronted with new ideas. Kerri wants what she wants, damn the consequences.
5. Tassadar and Jim were buds, and not people forced into an artificial relationship.

That, and forgiving a person is entirely different from falling in love with them. I could buy that Raynor might forgive her if it were under credible circumstances. I will never accept that Raynor would then choose to love her, or so much as trust her, ever again.

No it wouldn't. Seriously, one man's battle against crippling depression handled in a realistic way is not the story for any kind of RTS wargame. And it certainly doesn't fit with the story of the original games.

Oh, it totally could. I was just talking about his base persona there, anyway. He starts the game in a slump, but bigger circumstances force him to come out of the bar and try to trust himself again. Raynor is always driven by what he thinks is good, but his past should have scarred him into thinking he'd just make horrible mistakes again. But then the Zerg, Mengsk, or maybe hybrids start acting up, and Raynor is forced to accept the failures of his past and move forward. Or, alternatively, he starts getting serious about his vow to kill Kerrigan, and he accumulates power over time to finally finish the job. So long as competent details are added, it could have worked.

Though note that I'm also assuming that the gameplay wouldn't revolve solely around Jim. SC2's focus on one central character really killed a lot of plot potential, compared to SC1.

FanaticTemplar

11-20-2015, 12:13 AM

Again, that's not how it was presented.

Yes, it was. I've already given you the quotes. Kerrigan does practically nothing of interest in Wings of Liberty.

I question the appropriateness of comparing a rabid dog to a murderous woman.

Well, yeah. But comparing her to a woman getting possessed by an alien isn't really a metaphor so much as a description.

Also, clearly Raynor hated her in BW. If you can't see that, well, there's nothing I can do.

Yeah, that's all in your head. The characterisation is entirely consistent with all of Raynor's character throughout StarCraft and Brood War. If you think he turned around completely after he left the game, that's not actual canon.

Not true. Raynor's behaviors and the way people reacted to his gloom about Kerri indicates that he was shown to have feelings for her.

Nah, Tychus just interpreted it wrong because he can't imagine a man and a woman being close without sex being involved, and Matt was just angry and calling her his 'girlfriend' in a "if you like her so much why don't you marry her?' kind of taunt.

On the other hand, WoL was pretty scatterbrained, so not much of anything was of any importance. Especially since none of Raynor's actions other than getting the artifact and de-infesting Kerrigan had any affect at all on the later games. Seriously, there wasn't even any consequences for that whole Mengsk controversy thing.

That's still a whole lot more consequences than Brood War.

I honestly don't believe he could ever see her that way again. Not least because their relationship in SC was never romantic, so there's no foundation for falling in love with an illusion.

Your vision of a world where there were no romantic feelings between Raynor and Kerrigan in StarCraft is a mystifying one.

Moreover, I hate how his characterization is suddenly all about her. In SC/BW, he was a guy desperately trying to get things right, only to make mistake after mistake.

Are you kidding? Raynor's entire involvement in Brood War revolved around Kerrigan. And not in that weird way you think she was the centre of Wings of Liberty, either. Just straight up helping her with all of her plans out of some desperate denial of what she'd become.

1. Tassadar was repentant. Kerri was not.

Kerrigan was plenty repentant after she got deinfested. Tassadar was "repentant" in the sense that he literally says "Whatever leniency I extended to you and your comrades before, may have been in error.". He believes he was not harsh enough with the Terrans.

2. Tassadar was chaotic in his pursuit of good. Kerri was violent in her pursuit of personal goals.

"Planetary genocide because I was told to" is less "chaotic" and more "Neuremberg defense".

Of course, if you want to go the route where this was necessary to prevent the Zerg apocalypse, it also bears mentioning that his decision to abandon that method directly lead to the creation of the Queen of Blades.

3. Tassadar restrained himself despite his orders. Kerri relished in punishing her enemies.

Kerrigan spared Raynor and his men, despite the Overmind's orders.

4. Tassadar showed himself eager to change when confronted with new ideas. Kerri wants what she wants, damn the consequences.

Kerrigan actually changed.

5. Tassadar and Jim were buds, and not people forced into an artificial relationship.

"Hey, are you the guy who wiped out my planet? Let's develop a natural relationship based on that! Not like this artificial notion of "falling for a coworker", who ever heard of anything stupid like that?"

That, and forgiving a person is entirely different from falling in love with them. I could buy that Raynor might forgive her if it were under credible circumstances. I will never accept that Raynor would then choose to love her, or so much as trust her, ever again.

Wait, wait, you forgot one!

6. Tassadar was acting of his own free will, Kerrigan WAS POSSESSED BY EVIL ALIENS.

Oh, it totally could. I was just talking about his base persona there, anyway. He starts the game in a slump, but bigger circumstances force him to come out of the bar and try to trust himself again. Raynor is always driven by what he thinks is good, but his past should have scarred him into thinking he'd just make horrible mistakes again. But then the Zerg, Mengsk, or maybe hybrids start acting up, and Raynor is forced to accept the failures of his past and move forward. Or, alternatively, he starts getting serious about his vow to kill Kerrigan, and he accumulates power over time to finally finish the job. So long as competent details are added, it could have worked.

...

That's the story of Wings of Liberty.

DarthYam

11-20-2015, 02:14 AM

That's how it always works in real life. When you've been abused your whole life and then suddenly turned loose, you go crazy with power right away, and that can take years to fix, sometimes it's not even fixable.

- - - Updated - - -

Not that, DarthYam. This is what happens when you go through a life of abuse. You tend to lash out at others, even those who never once wronged you, simply because you now have the power to do something about it. Going crazy with power happens a lot in this case, I've seen it happen in real life.
I can see her being angry at the world and lashing out (hell that's what she does in heart of the swarm). But going from an idealist with clear standards to torturing for the evulz is bad writing.

ragnarok

11-20-2015, 04:02 AM

Turalyon

11-20-2015, 06:29 AM

Aah, epic walls of text, how I missed thee! I'm kinda feeling missed out here. :p

Not sure that would've been enough for Raynor to consider allying with a Mengsk, though.

That's a good point. Makes me wonder what Raynor's reaction would be if Valerian saying that he could offer a chance to kill Kerrigan (instead of a chance to save her) in Heir Apparent. Would he have just shot him then and there? :D

Then again, Raynor doesn't really gain much from an alliance with Valerian since Raynor pretty much ends up doing things all on his own anyway. Valerian's main purpose/value in the structure of the narrative is really just to give exposition about the artifact and to trigger the beginning of the end of WoL's plot. It doesn't really necessitate Raynor having to be buddy-buddy with Valerian to make their association an alliance of convenience more than anything else.

I mean, it's kinda odd in WoL that Valerian knows Raynor so well that he can actually determine Raynor's wish of saving Kerrigan before he's even met the man or likely know of anything about him at all if Mengsk Snr had anything to do with it. Now, we don't know if it was somehow made public, but the last transmission that Raynor ever made regarding Kerrigan was his vehemence in killing her in True Colors. How does Valerian know otherwise? It'd be more plausible for him to think that Raynor wants to kill Kerrigan since he has record of him saying that. Afterall, an adjutant recording of Mengsk's rant in The Hammer Falls was available, why not that?

His offer to ask Raynor's help in killing Kerrigan still works since a) he believes Raynor's knowledge of Kerrigan maybe an asset in the upcoming battle and b) it still preys on Raynor wanting some sort of closure/redemption regarding Kerrigan. As to Raynor not accepting the alliance if the reveal was the killing (instead of the saving of) Kerrigan, well, one has consider what made him accept Valerians' offer in WoL in the first place. He's just trusting Valerian at his word, when he could've been lying. Therefore, I don't think Raynor's inherent distrust of the Mengsk family is really that strong to deny the offer of an alliance to kill Kerrigan (if it was revealed to be that) since in WoL, he just takes/trusts Valerian's word that he can save her as is. If Raynor really hated the Mengsk family, he would be more distrusting of/unwilling to ally with Valerian if he offered to save her since his supposed bad perception of the Mengsks would make him thinks there's a trick. I think Raynor would trust Valerian more if he revealed he intended to kill her.

Still, if that wasn't enough for Raynor to permit himself a temporary alliance with Valerian, it could've easily been a perfect spot to display some of that prime Mengsk assholery by having Valerian insinuating that Raynor would be best to help him. By joining with Valerian, Raynor would get kudos and a pardon when Valerian reaps the benefit of ending the threat of the Zerg. The alternative is that he'd just offer Raynor up to Mengsk Snr. if he refused to comply, whilst Valerian alone reaps the benefit of ending the threat of Kerrigan but also delivering the "terrorist" Raynor to "justice". Of course, it would need to rejig the Heir Apparent cinematic for that to work (which I don't mind since it's ludicrous enough that Raynor got as far as he did in almost killing Valerian and for Valerian being so dumb to risk his life just for a dramatic introduction) but it would help sell that Valerian meant business and that he had some real cajones.

Nissa

11-20-2015, 08:07 AM

Yes, it was. I've already given you the quotes. Kerrigan does practically nothing of interest in Wings of Liberty.

Again, it's not what she's doing, it's that she's the driving motivator, and the only real consequence of the WoL. Nothing else Raynor does matters.

Well, yeah. But comparing her to a woman getting possessed by an alien isn't really a metaphor so much as a description.

Which is why your rabid dog metaphor doesn't work.

Yeah, that's all in your head. The characterisation is entirely consistent with all of Raynor's character throughout StarCraft and Brood War. If you think he turned around completely after he left the game, that's not actual canon.

All in my head? What, so he threatened to kill her because he loved her? You keep using "throughout" and not looking at how it ends between them. Raynor's behavior towards her in SC is mostly irrelevant, because by the end of BW they've both changed. You can't use Raynor's earlier feelings to justify his behavior after he's been horribly betrayed by Kerrigan in the final Zerg missions. Raynor has trusted too much and been burned too much for it to work. It appears you so badly want to see this as a possible romance, that you're willing to ignore what's right in front of your eyes.

And no, that's not the story of WoL. WoL is a collection of mismatched storylines where a still somewhat optimistic "Raynor" attempts to do various things. His depression is mentioned, but rarely plot-affective. He isn't pulled back from despair and he's not obviously motivated by killing Kerrigan. WoL only uses his depression as occasional set-dressing.

Still, if that wasn't enough for Raynor to permit himself a temporary alliance with Valerian, it could've easily been a perfect spot to display some of that prime Mengsk assholery by having Valerian insinuating that Raynor would be best to help him. By joining with Valerian, Raynor would get kudos and a pardon when Valerian reaps the benefit of ending the threat of the Zerg. The alternative is that he'd just offer Raynor up to Mengsk Snr. if he refused to comply, whilst Valerian alone reaps the benefit of ending the threat of Kerrigan but also delivering the "terrorist" Raynor to "justice". Of course, it would need to rejig the Heir Apparent cinematic for that to work (which I don't mind since it's ludicrous enough that Raynor got as far as he did in almost killing Valerian and for Valerian being so dumb to risk his life just for a dramatic introduction) but it would help sell that Valerian meant business and that he had some real cajones.

Does anybody else feel Valerian was weak in characterization? His arc in SC2 was a lot like his arc in the Dark Templar Saga -- at first, he's a somewhat mysterious possible analogue of his father, while later the authors want to make very, very sure that Valerian is meant to be a good guy. This is especially awkward in the DT Saga, where a character kills her lover for betraying her to Valerian. And then Valerian turns out to be nice. Super messed up, right there.

In the games, Val's just some leadership substitute to prepare for Blizz wanting to kill Mengsk off. He's not interesting or plot-dramatic in any way. Quite frankly, they might as well have kept Papa Mengsk. Mengsk's story might have been "already told", but Valerian never had one to begin with.

TheEconomist

11-20-2015, 11:15 AM

Your vision of a world where there were no romantic feelings between Raynor and Kerrigan in StarCraft is a mystifying one.

Surely I'm misinterpreting this. Are you saying the romance arch was there from the beginning? I don't mean fondness, infatuation, or attraction, I mean, "I'll go to the ends of the universe because I still love you" kind of romance. You're saying that was there from the beginning?

ragnarok

11-20-2015, 04:22 PM

Surely I'm misinterpreting this. Are you saying the romance arch was there from the beginning? I don't mean fondness, infatuation, or attraction, I mean, "I'll go to the ends of the universe because I still love you" kind of romance. You're saying that was there from the beginning?

It was hard to say, but at the very least before Fenix's death in BW, you can see Raynor was willing to go a VERY long distance to save Kerrigan.

FanaticTemplar

11-20-2015, 08:26 PM

That's a good point. Makes me wonder what Raynor's reaction would be if Valerian saying that he could offer a chance to kill Kerrigan (instead of a chance to save her) in Heir Apparent. Would he have just shot him then and there? :D

Good question. I don't know if he'd shoot Valerian just for being Arcturus' son, honestly.

Then again, Raynor doesn't really gain much from an alliance with Valerian since Raynor pretty much ends up doing things all on his own anyway. Valerian's main purpose/value in the structure of the narrative is really just to give exposition about the artifact and to trigger the beginning of the end of WoL's plot. It doesn't really necessitate Raynor having to be buddy-buddy with Valerian to make their association an alliance of convenience more than anything else.

Well, Valerian provides our Battlecruisers, and it's implied that we take command of the Dominion forces on Char through Gates of Hell and Warfield leaving to get his new arm, so he provides mostly a justification for having enough forces to attack Char at all. He's kinda like General Duke from Rebel Yell in that.

I mean, it's kinda odd in WoL that Valerian knows Raynor so well that he can actually determine Raynor's wish of saving Kerrigan before he's even met the man or likely know of anything about him at all if Mengsk Snr had anything to do with it. Now, we don't know if it was somehow made public, but the last transmission that Raynor ever made regarding Kerrigan was his vehemence in killing her in True Colors. How does Valerian know otherwise? It'd be more plausible for him to think that Raynor wants to kill Kerrigan since he has record of him saying that. Afterall, an adjutant recording of Mengsk's rant in The Hammer Falls was available, why not that?

I assumed he heard it from his father, as that Dangerous Game quote I love bringing up demonstrates, Arcturus had a good grasp on what was motivating Raynor.

Again, it's not what she's doing, it's that she's the driving motivator, and the only real consequence of the WoL. Nothing else Raynor does matters.

And as I've told you, being the triggering event does not make you the focus of the story. Stories are about journeys. The choices, obstacles, development and relationships are all Raynor's.

All in my head? What, so he threatened to kill her because he loved her?

He threatened to kill her because she needed to be put down. That doesn't change his established character.

And no, that's not the story of WoL. WoL is a collection of mismatched storylines where a still somewhat optimistic "Raynor" attempts to do various things. His depression is mentioned, but rarely plot-affective. He isn't pulled back from despair and he's not obviously motivated by killing Kerrigan. WoL only uses his depression as occasional set-dressing.

He's driven himself into a hole from which he can only be roused to perform some occasional bit of minor mischief when seeing Mengsk angers him enough. It takes the Zerg invasion for him to get reminded of all the people who are in desperate need of help, yet also of how much he has personally lost. He tries to do what's right, only to be relentlessly pursued by the ghosts of his past, until Valerian shows up to offer him one last chance to set his demons to rest, a final, desperate hope that drives him to sacrifice anything.

Does anybody else feel Valerian was weak in characterization?

Yes. I had hoped for more.

Surely I'm misinterpreting this. Are you saying the romance arch was there from the beginning? I don't mean fondness, infatuation, or attraction, I mean, "I'll go to the ends of the universe because I still love you" kind of romance. You're saying that was there from the beginning?

No, just the feelings.

Turalyon

11-21-2015, 12:38 AM

Good question. I don't know if he'd shoot Valerian just for being Arcturus' son, honestly.

I was kinda half-joking with that question. If Raynor did go on to shoot Valerian it'd destroy the redemption angle of the story and his base-line archetype of being the good guy that most people and Blizz expect. Then again, it (having shot at Valerian) would've helped sell the notion that Raynor has been driven insane by the guilt, depression and alcoholism he is supposedly suffering from in WoL. Course, since he shows competence and a general good-hearted nature in the previous missions prior to that point, they'd have to tweak the outcomes and the perspective of those considerably to make that insane notion stick. Then again, to me, Raynor's arc in WoL only makes sense if I think of him as being somewhat insane anyway...

Well, Valerian provides our Battlecruisers, and it's implied that we take command of the Dominion forces on Char through Gates of Hell and Warfield leaving to get his new arm, so he provides mostly a justification for having enough forces to attack Char at all. He's kinda like General Duke from Rebel Yell in that.

Yeah, but this just goes hand-in-hand with Valerian just really being used as a plot device to trigger the the start of the ending of WoL's story. Whilst Duke does serve a similar purpose, it's a lot more disguised and perfunctory (in a good way) compared to how Valerian is utilised in the narrative.

Within the narrative itself, it becomes clear that Valerian and Warfield are more of a liability to Raynor than of any real benefit/assistance. The army of battlecruisers they bring to Char are almost all destroyed in orbit before the Gates of Hell mission even starts, so it's kinda difficult to ascertain the value they had in assisting Raynor. Also, when compared to Raynor's previous exploits where on Korhal he was able to conduct Media Blitz by landing on the most fortified Terran world, causing a ruckus and escaping scot-free on the most fortified Terran planet in existence and his full-on engagement with a superior alien force in Safe Haven against his own small force (if you chose that path), one has to consider why Raynor couldn't have just gone it alone on Char at the end and not get the same result. The Zerg were already spread out thin throughout the sector afterall and they probably wouldn't have noticed Raynor's small band compared to Valerian's fleet (which got noticed and smashed). Why is this situation any different?

I assumed he heard it from his father, as that Dangerous Game quote I love bringing up demonstrates, Arcturus had a good grasp on what was motivating Raynor.

Be careful about reading too much into that Mengsk quote. We don't really know how Mengsk Snr actually knows that Raynor has a hidden Saviour complex/redemption fetish nor why Valerian would opt to believe anything Mengsk Snr has to say about Raynor. In Sc1, though he can manipulate people, he's not really that good at understanding other people since you yourself have commented that he quickly reverts to anger whenever things don't go his way (see how he gets snarky with Duke when he starts quibbling about not joining him or when Raynor rebukes him after New Gettysburg). And whilst Mengsk assuming Raynor has a Saviour Complex would hold from what we see in New Gettysburg, you have to realise that BW/True Colours (no matter how much you dislike it) did happen and that the most recent development on Raynor/Kerrigan front there up until WoL starts was that Raynor declared he would kill her if given the chance. Of course, this is assuming that Raynor's declaration was public but I think that's a safe assumption - Mengsk's forces being also present at the time (with Duke dying there) would have known about this surely.

And yes, whilst one can assume that like Raynor, everyone may have changed their minds and may developed new/different opinions in the 4 years between BW and WoL, we are not given any indication why and how that could be. Especially when it comes to Mengsk Snr, whom we see very little of in WoL.

ragnarok

11-21-2015, 01:40 AM

Be careful about reading too much into that Mengsk quote. We don't really know how Mengsk Snr actually knows that Raynor has a hidden Saviour complex/redemption fetish nor why Valerian would opt to believe anything Mengsk Snr has to say about Raynor. In Sc1, though he can manipulate people, he's not really that good at understanding other people since you yourself have commented that he quickly reverts to anger whenever things don't go his way (see how he gets snarky with Duke when he starts quibbling about not joining him or when Raynor rebukes him after New Gettysburg). And whilst Mengsk assuming Raynor has a Saviour Complex would hold from what we see in New Gettysburg, you have to realise that BW/True Colours (no matter how much you dislike it) did happen and that the most recent development on Raynor/Kerrigan front there up until WoL starts was that Raynor declared he would kill her if given the chance. Of course, this is assuming that Raynor's declaration was public but I think that's a safe assumption - Mengsk's forces being also present at the time (with Duke dying there) would have known about this surely.

And yes, whilst one can assume that like Raynor, everyone may have changed their minds and may developed new/different opinions in the 4 years between BW and WoL, we are not given any indication why and how that could be. Especially when it comes to Mengsk Snr, whom we see very little of in WoL.

This is something I feel could have been Mengsk's god complex problem. Because of what happened in True Colors in BW, it's likely Mengsk was thinking that because Raynor had the savior complex, perhaps he could be persuaded to finally stop the rebellion against him and actually join him to deal with Kerrigan. She is, after all, the bigger threat. Remember, in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of the BW, no one could have known that she'd withdraw the swarm back to Char and wouldn't be heard from again for the new few years. In fact a lot of people had speculated she would use the swarm to finish the Protoss and Dominion off once the BW ended (this was back in like 2000, long before any work began for WoL).

For the part of people changing their minds and everything during the 4 years between BW and WoL, likely Mengsk felt the Zerg were not going to return, so he could focus on expanding the Dominion empire again. Raynor by this point had concluded he wasn't going to have much success against the swarm anyway, so he turned his attention back to bringing Mengsk to justice. This is exactly the reason why Mengsk began to use the Dominion propaganda machine to portray Raynor as "the worst traitor to humanity," and Raynor had no luck against that until finding the adjutant on Tarsonis. Likely the change in Mengsk's mentality is because he quickly concluded that it was pointless to talk to Raynor and convince him to give up the fight, the man just wasn't going to give in. And Mengsk's mentality was absolute: if you're not with him, you're against him.

FanaticTemplar

11-22-2015, 01:06 AM

Yeah, but this just goes hand-in-hand with Valerian just really being used as a plot device to trigger the the start of the ending of WoL's story. Whilst Duke does serve a similar purpose, it's a lot more disguised and perfunctory (in a good way) compared to how Valerian is utilised in the narrative.

Agreed. It's not necessarily a bad role to have - not everybody can be a main character - but I was hoping he'd come into his own in the sequels, but nothing really happens with him. He's somewhat similar to Daggoth like that, actually. Fun fact, Valerian is the point of view character for the Terran campaign in my own headcanon sequel to the original StarCraft. So you could say I would have wanted better from him.

Within the narrative itself, it becomes clear that Valerian and Warfield are more of a liability to Raynor than of any real benefit/assistance. The army of battlecruisers they bring to Char are almost all destroyed in orbit before the Gates of Hell mission even starts, so it's kinda difficult to ascertain the value they had in assisting Raynor. Also, when compared to Raynor's previous exploits where on Korhal he was able to conduct Media Blitz by landing on the most fortified Terran world, causing a ruckus and escaping scot-free on the most fortified Terran planet in existence and his full-on engagement with a superior alien force in Safe Haven against his own small force (if you chose that path), one has to consider why Raynor couldn't have just gone it alone on Char at the end and not get the same result. The Zerg were already spread out thin throughout the sector afterall and they probably wouldn't have noticed Raynor's small band compared to Valerian's fleet (which got noticed and smashed). Why is this situation any different?

They probably could have played it as a more stealthy operation, with Raynor attacking under the distraction provided by the Dominion, I think that could have worked too. I don't actually have a problem with Valerian fucking up the invasion that bad though. He's young and inexperienced and thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does. I like that as a facet of his character.

Warfield should have known better though. He's not as bad as Duke, but then Duke just flew from failure to failure without giving a damn. It's like he was just a few years from retirement and had stopped giving a shit a long time ago. I'm oddly fascinated by the guy.

Be careful about reading too much into that Mengsk quote. We don't really know how Mengsk Snr actually knows that Raynor has a hidden Saviour complex/redemption fetish nor why Valerian would opt to believe anything Mengsk Snr has to say about Raynor. In Sc1, though he can manipulate people, he's not really that good at understanding other people since you yourself have commented that he quickly reverts to anger whenever things don't go his way (see how he gets snarky with Duke when he starts quibbling about not joining him or when Raynor rebukes him after New Gettysburg). And whilst Mengsk assuming Raynor has a Saviour Complex would hold from what we see in New Gettysburg, you have to realise that BW/True Colours (no matter how much you dislike it) did happen and that the most recent development on Raynor/Kerrigan front there up until WoL starts was that Raynor declared he would kill her if given the chance. Of course, this is assuming that Raynor's declaration was public but I think that's a safe assumption - Mengsk's forces being also present at the time (with Duke dying there) would have known about this surely.

And yes, whilst one can assume that like Raynor, everyone may have changed their minds and may developed new/different opinions in the 4 years between BW and WoL, we are not given any indication why and how that could be. Especially when it comes to Mengsk Snr, whom we see very little of in WoL.

I'm not certain what your perspective here is. True, it wouldn't be strange for Arcturus to read him badly, or for him to believe Raynor intends to kill Kerrigan. But he's also demonstrated that at other times he can accurately gauge people (like when he recruits the player character in Desperate Alliance) and he would also know of Raynor's track record with Kerrigan. So it's not like it's inconsistent for him to be straight on here, and having the villain cut straight to the deep emotional vulnerability of the hero is exactly the kind of move that one should want from a social-focused villain like Arcturus. Isn't this exactly what you want from Arcturus? I thought the disappointment people had was that he didn't have more scenes like this one?

EDIT: Incidentally, I don't dislike True Colors at all, I think it's one of the genuinely good points in the otherwise disappointing Brood War, alongside The Evacuation of Aiur and, if you're willing to accept the premise of the United Earth Directorate, Patriot's Blood.

Turalyon

11-22-2015, 02:59 AM

They probably could have played it as a more stealthy operation, with Raynor attacking under the distraction provided by the Dominion, I think that could have worked too. I don't actually have a problem with Valerian fucking up the invasion that bad though. He's young and inexperienced and thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does. I like that as a facet of his character.

Warfield should have known better though. He's not as bad as Duke, but then Duke just flew from failure to failure without giving a damn. It's like he was just a few years from retirement and had stopped giving a shit a long time ago. I'm oddly fascinated by the guy.

It would've worked, too, if Raynor went to Char alone and won since the previous examples I provided were a precedent for that to happen.

Keep in mind though that we are talking about the utility and value of Raynor allying with Valerian to joint attack Char on the basis that the reveal is the artifact can kill Zerg rather than reverse deinfestation. I think Raynor would still ally with Valerian for convenience sake but even if Raynor refused Valerian's help, he could still have conceivably gotten the job done by himself due to his unparalleled skills. He also has the artifact pieces and the prodigies, Stetman and Swann, to help him figure out the artifact given time.

I'm not certain what your perspective here is. True, it wouldn't be strange for Arcturus to read him badly, or for him to believe Raynor intends to kill Kerrigan. But he's also demonstrated that at other times he can accurately gauge people (like when he recruits the player character in Desperate Alliance) and he would also know of Raynor's track record with Kerrigan.

I don't know about him recruiting the magistrate in Desperate Alliances as a demonstration of him reading people but rather that Mengsk is quite shrewd in looking for and exploiting opportunities. Mengsk doesn't need to read the Magistrate at all in that situation because it's a no-brainer - come with me or get eaten by Zerg. He attempts to pull the same thing on Duke but he's a little more stubborn or dumb or even perhaps wise to Mengsk's manipulation of that scenario and Mengsk gets angry. In short, this demonstrates that Mengsk is good at reading situations, not people exactly. He could be good at that, too, but there isn't enough evidence for that in Sc1 or BW.

Also, if Mengsk knew Raynor so intimately in Sc1, he would have persuaded Raynor down to help Kerrigan on New Gettysburg and left them both down there to be consumed by the Zerg, not get mad at him afterward when Raynor tells him to go to hell since he should have expected that reaction from him if he was good at reading people.

So it's not like it's inconsistent for him to be straight on here, and having the villain cut straight to the deep emotional vulnerability of the hero is exactly the kind of move that one should want from a social-focused villain like Arcturus. Isn't this exactly what you want from Arcturus? I thought the disappointment people had was that he didn't have more scenes like this one?

It's not really a matter of inconsistency but rather a matter of continuity (or discontinuity as the case may be) as I tend to keep saying. How and why would Mengsk know Raynor always wanted to save Kerrigan when there has never been an indication that he thinks that way and especially when in BW, the last time Raynor and Mengsk are within the general vicinity of each other, it's when Raynor declares intent to kill Kerrigan?

It's a great moment that Mengsk is able to show that side in WoL, but it seems somewhat unearned. Especially so when one considers how poorly he reads Kerrigans intent and is so blindsided by her betrayal in BW - and this is someone he should've known even better than Raynor!

EDIT: Incidentally, I don't dislike True Colors at all, I think it's one of the genuinely good points in the otherwise disappointing Brood War, alongside The Evacuation of Aiur and, if you're willing to accept the premise of the United Earth Directorate, Patriot's Blood.

Oh sorry, I didn't mean to say you didn't like True Colours specifically, but just BW in general. Disliking something often makes you willingly "forget" things that did actually (and unfortunately) happen. It's happening to me right now with Sc2.

ragnarok

11-22-2015, 04:07 AM

It's not really a matter of inconsistency but rather a matter of continuity (or discontinuity as the case may be) as I tend to keep saying. How and why would Mengsk know Raynor always wanted to save Kerrigan when there has never been an indication that he thinks that way and especially when in BW, the last time Raynor and Mengsk are within the general vicinity of each other, it's when Raynor declares intent to kill Kerrigan?

It's a great moment that Mengsk is able to show that side in WoL, but it seems somewhat unearned. Especially so when one considers how poorly he reads Kerrigans intent and is so blindsided by her betrayal in BW - and this is someone he should've known even better than Raynor!

The only way this could make sense would be if Mengsk intercepted the transmissions Raynor made from "The Hammer Falls", when he blamed himself for what happened to her on Tarsonis. Yes in the 3rd BW Zerg mission briefing, he did blame Mengsk, but likely Mengsk would have put two and two together and would think perhaps Raynor would blame himself for not having the balls to stand up to him when he had the chance back then.

FanaticTemplar

11-22-2015, 10:54 AM

I don't know about him recruiting the magistrate in Desperate Alliances as a demonstration of him reading people but rather that Mengsk is quite shrewd in looking for and exploiting opportunities. Mengsk doesn't need to read the Magistrate at all in that situation because it's a no-brainer - come with me or get eaten by Zerg. He attempts to pull the same thing on Duke but he's a little more stubborn or dumb or even perhaps wise to Mengsk's manipulation of that scenario and Mengsk gets angry. In short, this demonstrates that Mengsk is good at reading situations, not people exactly. He could be good at that, too, but there isn't enough evidence for that in Sc1 or BW.

Maybe, but going for the whole 'it's a chance to save those people' really echoes Raynor's own argument from the previous mission - "I'll go down there now, and do what I can. You send in some militia and we'll save those folks. Trust me." Obviously the player character is mostly a blank slate, but the repeated theme seems deliberate. You'll note that he doesn't utilise the same approach for the Magistrate and for Duke either.

Also, if Mengsk knew Raynor so intimately in Sc1, he would have persuaded Raynor down to help Kerrigan on New Gettysburg and left them both down there to be consumed by the Zerg, not get mad at him afterward when Raynor tells him to go to hell since he should have expected that reaction from him if he was good at reading people.

Eh, you're trying to reduce this to an overly simplistic "Mengsk is either right 100% of the time, or 0% of the time". Instead, view it as a learning experience that gives him more information on how Raynor ticks.

It's not really a matter of inconsistency but rather a matter of continuity (or discontinuity as the case may be) as I tend to keep saying. How and why would Mengsk know Raynor always wanted to save Kerrigan when there has never been an indication that he thinks that way and especially when in BW, the last time Raynor and Mengsk are within the general vicinity of each other, it's when Raynor declares intent to kill Kerrigan?

He doesn't need to believe that this was always Raynor's intention. The wound's still there even if Raynor had accepted that she couldn't be saved. Remember that the barb isn't about saving Kerrigan, it's about saving himself - if Raynor's accepted that Kerrigan cannot be saved, then he's reminding Raynor of what a failure he is.

It's a great moment that Mengsk is able to show that side in WoL, but it seems somewhat unearned. Especially so when one considers how poorly he reads Kerrigans intent and is so blindsided by her betrayal in BW - and this is someone he should've known even better than Raynor!

Now Mengsk's behaviour in Brood War is one of the things I tend to try to forget :p. I do believe that the writers should be allowed to move past those bad decisions, but even if you don't, there's no shortage of bad Arcturus moments in StarCraft II either, sadly.

Gradius

11-22-2015, 01:53 PM

Aldrius

11-22-2015, 03:29 PM

I can see her being angry at the world and lashing out (hell that's what she does in heart of the swarm). But going from an idealist with clear standards to torturing for the evulz is bad writing.

No it isn't.

The execution might have been bad (I don't think it is) but that's not bad writing to have a character betray their values and their ethics when something horrible happens to them.

Being betrayed by someone you TRUSTED and being genetically manipulated by an enormous hive mind would mess up your head regardless of any physical changes. Hell, I'm not even sure that the Confederacy DIDN'T mess her up. She murders Lieutenant Rumm in Uprising pretty brutally. It could all be there, bubbling under the surface, with only her own guilt, Raynor's friendship and Mengsk's guidance keeping it at bay. Let's not forget that Kerrigan is a TRAINED military assassin working for an insurgent rebel group. She is a nice woman to speak to, but she's still a killer.

Now that's not really apparent from StarCraft's narrative (just Uprising's).

But even so, there are plenty of well established good books and stories that involve a character turning on everything they believed in. Some of the best.

Going back, again, to Shakespeare. We have MacBeth. He spends the first act of the book thinking about how abhorrent the idea of murdering the king is. And then he does it because his wife basically clucks like a chicken and questions his manhood.

ragnarok

11-22-2015, 04:33 PM

Listening to the developers talk about the epilogue on the behind the scenes DVD.

"We thought about how to end the trilogy and long and hard about the relationship with Sarah and Jim. There's this cool quaint little moment with Jim back at the bar and we're like 'wouldn't it be cool if...you know, maybe it's a dream, maybe it's not." <trails out>

Which is BS. However you're going to wrap things up, at least make it concrete, not this vague interpretation which will leave the door open for them to return someday.

Visions of Khas

11-22-2015, 06:25 PM

However you're going to wrap things up, at least make it concrete, not this vague interpretation which will leave the door open for them to return someday.

"You know nothing of the Blizzard writers!"
-Narud

Vague interpretations is their MO.

ragnarok

11-22-2015, 08:40 PM

"You know nothing of the Blizzard writers!"
-Narud

Vague interpretations is their MO.

Which is not acceptable to the community. You can't keep things vague forever and then when the next game comes out, pull out another pile of retcons specifically via that excuse.

Visions of Khas

11-22-2015, 10:16 PM

No, it isn't acceptable. But I do think it's laudable they hired a new lead writer for LotV, which is well ahead of the previous two installments in quality.

ragnarok

11-23-2015, 05:04 AM

No, it isn't acceptable. But I do think it's laudable they hired a new lead writer for LotV, which is well ahead of the previous two installments in quality.

Now they just have to do it for the epilogue, and rewrite at least half of it.

Turalyon

11-23-2015, 09:28 AM

Maybe, but going for the whole 'it's a chance to save those people' really echoes Raynor's own argument from the previous mission - "I'll go down there now, and do what I can. You send in some militia and we'll save those folks. Trust me." Obviously the player character is mostly a blank slate, but the repeated theme seems deliberate. You'll note that he doesn't utilise the same approach for the Magistrate and for Duke either.

That's an interesting perspective to take but I'm still more inclined to think Mengsks speech to the Magistrate is still more of him exploiting the situation than it is about Mengsk reading the guy (and by extension being a good reader of other people in general). The large reason being is that there is no interaction between Mengsk and the Magistrate. And no, it's not just because it's impossible due the Magistrate being the player character and the game not being an RPG. It's essentially because Mengsk comes out nowhere, makes a declarative speech and then expects whoever listens to accept his reasoning. There's no "reading of the magistrate" to be had. What Mengsk has done instead is read the situation before making that speech to the magistrate: He knows that a magistrate is responsible for people and has some sway/authority over them, that the Confederates have abandoned them and then subsequently left for dead to the Zerg. This is an ample opportunity for him to swoop in.

Whilst you say that this approach is different when it comes to Duke, it is and it isn't. If want to look at him reading the person (which is harder to gain evidence to suggest so), then sure, you can see it as different approach but I somewhat beg to differ. Duke's situation is actually very similar to the Magistrate's in Desperate Alliance as I described above. You'll also see that Mengsk's first approach to Duke is similar to the one he gives the magistrate in that he's trying to impart "reason" on a guy that he assumes will listen to it. He gets rebuffed and then starts getting annoyed and then tries to force an ultimatum and then finally gets him to come around by making a deal/exchange with him. Sure, you could say the fact that he got him onboard eventually was due to Mengsk being able to read Duke eventually, but that Mengsk had to negotiate does not necessarily mean he's good at reading people.

Eh, you're trying to reduce this to an overly simplistic "Mengsk is either right 100% of the time, or 0% of the time". Instead, view it as a learning experience that gives him more information on how Raynor ticks.

Not really. I'm not an expert reader of people but I can clearly say that Raynor is not a very difficult man to read. He showed more vehemence to Mengsk's proposed actions than Kerrigan did and yet Kerrigan is the one consigned to a suicide mission on the possible implication that she has or will become a liability (I'm ignoring the true reason from the EU here mind you) and Raynor is not? This does not speak of a person who's really that good at reading people and making choices/acting off that ability. Seems more to me that he's reading people wrongly but instead perhaps reading the situation in a utilitarian way (which would seem correct to Mengsk) instead.

He doesn't need to believe that this was always Raynor's intention. The wound's still there even if Raynor had accepted that she couldn't be saved. Remember that the barb isn't about saving Kerrigan, it's about saving himself - if Raynor's accepted that Kerrigan cannot be saved, then he's reminding Raynor of what a failure he is.

This all sounds good but a part of me still feels where ascribing too much regard for Mengsk and his supposed ability to cut people with his intimate knowledge of people on just this one quote. Recent history does not indicate he's that good.

Now Mengsk's behaviour in Brood War is one of the things I tend to try to forget :p. I do believe that the writers should be allowed to move past those bad decisions, but even if you don't, there's no shortage of bad Arcturus moments in StarCraft II either, sadly.

You're not the only one who wants to forget Mengsk's behaviour in BW but unfortunately, this is what we have and it suggests he's not good at reading people at all. Continuity can be the devil in this circumstance.

As to Mengsk in Sc2, his depiction as a whole is such a caricature that not even that one line in WoL you like can save him. I'm of the opinion that's why he "had" to eventually die in the narrative because it was the one development that people could still possibly care about for the character, if at all. I feel the same way about why Zeratul had to die in LotV as well.

FanaticTemplar

11-23-2015, 11:38 AM

That's an interesting perspective to take but I'm still more inclined to think Mengsks speech to the Magistrate is still more of him exploiting the situation than it is about Mengsk reading the guy (and by extension being a good reader of other people in general). The large reason being is that there is no interaction between Mengsk and the Magistrate. And no, it's not just because it's impossible due the Magistrate being the player character and the game not being an RPG. It's essentially because Mengsk comes out nowhere, makes a declarative speech and then expects whoever listens to accept his reasoning. There's no "reading of the magistrate" to be had. What Mengsk has done instead is read the situation before making that speech to the magistrate: He knows that a magistrate is responsible for people and has some sway/authority over them, that the Confederates have abandoned them and then subsequently left for dead to the Zerg. This is an ample opportunity for him to swoop in.

Whilst you say that this approach is different when it comes to Duke, it is and it isn't. If want to look at him reading the person (which is harder to gain evidence to suggest so), then sure, you can see it as different approach but I somewhat beg to differ. Duke's situation is actually very similar to the Magistrate's in Desperate Alliance as I described above. You'll also see that Mengsk's first approach to Duke is similar to the one he gives the magistrate in that he's trying to impart "reason" on a guy that he assumes will listen to it. He gets rebuffed and then starts getting annoyed and then tries to force an ultimatum and then finally gets him to come around by making a deal/exchange with him. Sure, you could say the fact that he got him onboard eventually was due to Mengsk being able to read Duke eventually, but that Mengsk had to negotiate does not necessarily mean he's good at reading people.

While he tries to be reasonable to both, with the Magistrate he's appealing to duty and responsibility, and with Duke it's a lot more pragmatic, about the failure of the Confederacy and joining the winning side. And the failure isn't so much in going for pragmatism, it's that Duke isn't especially interested in the fate of the Confederacy and wants to know what's in it for him, specifically.

As to the Magistrate, there may be no direct interaction, but Mengsk has clearly looked him up. One of the first things he says is that he expects that Magistrate to react a certain way due to his reputation.

Not really. I'm not an expert reader of people but I can clearly say that Raynor is not a very difficult man to read. He showed more vehemence to Mengsk's proposed actions than Kerrigan did and yet Kerrigan is the one consigned to a suicide mission on the possible implication that she has or will become a liability (I'm ignoring the true reason from the EU here mind you) and Raynor is not? This does not speak of a person who's really that good at reading people and making choices/acting off that ability. Seems more to me that he's reading people wrongly but instead perhaps reading the situation in a utilitarian way (which would seem correct to Mengsk) instead.

I don't know about that. Did Mengsk actually believe Raynor would be fine with New Gettysburg? His speech afterward has always sounded incredibly fake to me, and I always assumed he didn't expect it to work and was putting no effort into it, but still had to throw it out just in case. Maybe that's just my perspective though. Either way, I've always wondered why he didn't send Raynor out to die with Kerrigan. It seems unfathomable that he wouldn't know about his objections. Maybe he feared that Raynor would actually refuse the order. Or maybe he feared that Raynor would have a plan to escape with some of his own loyal people, and that they'd both escape if Raynor was down there.

This all sounds good but a part of me still feels where ascribing too much regard for Mengsk and his supposed ability to cut people with his intimate knowledge of people on just this one quote. Recent history does not indicate he's that good.

Well, I consider his incompetence in Brood War to be a failure at writing the character, but if you want to believe that the character is truly inept and this competent display is the failed writing, then that's your right, but just as I have to accept that Brood War actually happened, you also have to accept that this actually happened too :p.

DarthYam

11-23-2015, 06:40 PM

No it isn't.

The execution might have been bad (I don't think it is) but that's not bad writing to have a character betray their values and their ethics when something horrible happens to them.

Being betrayed by someone you TRUSTED and being genetically manipulated by an enormous hive mind would mess up your head regardless of any physical changes. Hell, I'm not even sure that the Confederacy DIDN'T mess her up. She murders Lieutenant Rumm in Uprising pretty brutally. It could all be there, bubbling under the surface, with only her own guilt, Raynor's friendship and Mengsk's guidance keeping it at bay. Let's not forget that Kerrigan is a TRAINED military assassin working for an insurgent rebel group. She is a nice woman to speak to, but she's still a killer.

Now that's not really apparent from StarCraft's narrative (just Uprising's).

But even so, there are plenty of well established good books and stories that involve a character turning on everything they believed in. Some of the best.

Going back, again, to Shakespeare. We have MacBeth. He spends the first act of the book thinking about how abhorrent the idea of murdering the king is. And then he does it because his wife basically clucks like a chicken and questions his manhood.

Except Kerrigan in BW was snidely whiplash. In SC1 she was complex (she had a dark side but at the same time had a clear sense of morality. She even hated using the zerg on the people who tortured her.) In Brood War it's a complete 180 to evil for the sake of being evil. Also, there was the fact that the overmind ordered Kerrigan to slaughter every single one of the terrans after she emerged....and she DISOBEYED HIM!!!!!! That's not a small matter.

Anyway, I was not impressed by Kerrigan's transition to BW. Her arc in Heart of the Swarm (conflicted about what to do, than obsessed with revenge to the point she'll do whatever it takes to finally doing a heel turn after a heel realization) was more believable. I really think that people are looking at Brood War with rose colored glasses and refusing to admit that in some ways Brood War was WORSE.

Yes I said it. Brood War's story was shit.

Also, Nissa cowardly dodged some of the points FanaticTemplar made about Tassadar

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
1. Tassadar was repentant. Kerri was not.
Kerrigan was plenty repentant after she got deinfested. Tassadar was "repentant" in the sense that he literally says "Whatever leniency I extended to you and your comrades before, may have been in error.". He believes he was not harsh enough with the Terrans.

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
2. Tassadar was chaotic in his pursuit of good. Kerri was violent in her pursuit of personal goals.
"Planetary genocide because I was told to" is less "chaotic" and more "Neuremberg defense".

Of course, if you want to go the route where this was necessary to prevent the Zerg apocalypse, it also bears mentioning that his decision to abandon that method directly lead to the creation of the Queen of Blades.

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
3. Tassadar restrained himself despite his orders. Kerri relished in punishing her enemies.
Kerrigan spared Raynor and his men, despite the Overmind's orders.

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
4. Tassadar showed himself eager to change when confronted with new ideas. Kerri wants what she wants, damn the consequences.
Kerrigan actually changed.

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
5. Tassadar and Jim were buds, and not people forced into an artificial relationship.
"Hey, are you the guy who wiped out my planet? Let's develop a natural relationship based on that! Not like this artificial notion of "falling for a coworker", who ever heard of anything stupid like that?"

Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
That, and forgiving a person is entirely different from falling in love with them. I could buy that Raynor might forgive her if it were under credible circumstances. I will never accept that Raynor would then choose to love her, or so much as trust her, ever again.

Wait, wait, you forgot one!

6. Tassadar was acting of his own free will, Kerrigan WAS POSSESSED BY EVIL ALIENS.

In some ways Raynor's friendship with Tassadar made less sense. Kerrigan also showed good traits and in a way Tassadar was also an asshole. He used the "following orders" card. If he and Raynor start out hostile and evolve to friends it makes sense.

That's another thing. Heart Kerrigan EVOLVES as a character. She starts out conflicted, than she's more amoral, than she finally is willing to do the right thing even though she has no incentive (the "but she was just doing it for Raynor" is tosh. Kerrigan was genuinely surprised when he intervened so it's all but stated that she assumed any chance at reconciliation was gone.) In short, Kerrigan actually evolves over the course of the story. In Brood War she's evil from go.

Gradius

11-23-2015, 08:10 PM

Except Kerrigan in BW was snidely whiplash. In SC1 she was complex (she had a dark side but at the same time had a clear sense of morality. She even hated using the zerg on the people who tortured her.) In Brood War it's a complete 180 to evil for the sake of being evil.
Better than HoTS where it's evil masquerading as good or "misunderstood anti-hero". There are still people who defend Kerrigan's actions to destroy entire planets to get revenge on one guy, because that's what Blizzard was pushing.

She even hated using the zerg on the people who tortured her.
Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.

Also, there was the fact that the overmind ordered Kerrigan to slaughter every single one of the terrans after she emerged....and she DISOBEYED HIM!!!!!! That's not a small matter.

Explained in the game. The greatness of her spirit has been left to her.

That's what makes it interesting. We wonder how much of the original Sarah is still in there, and that question is finally answered in BW when Raynor vows to kill her. At this point, the insipid love story that people pretend exists should have had its final nail in the coffin if it didn't already happen after she turned into a disgusting bug creature.

Anyway, I was not impressed by Kerrigan's transition to BW. Her arc in Heart of the Swarm (conflicted about what to do, than obsessed with revenge to the point she'll do whatever it takes to finally doing a heel turn after a heel realization) was more believable.
Explain how she's conflicted beyond "feels bad about it once in a while". Plans to get revenge on Mengsk before he attacks Umoja. Ends up getting revenge on Mengsk and everything else she ever wanted because her and Raynor are Metzen's favorite characters. Wow, cool story bro. Very deep development.

I really think that people are looking at Brood War with rose colored glasses and refusing to admit that in some ways Brood War was WORSE.

Yes I said it. Brood War's story was shit.
Take off your fanboy goggles. It can't be nostalgia because I replayed BW a few months ago. And what do you know, it's still decent, and SC2 is still shit in comparison. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ragnarok

11-23-2015, 08:12 PM

That's another thing. Heart Kerrigan EVOLVES as a character. She starts out conflicted, than she's more amoral, than she finally is willing to do the right thing even though she has no incentive (the "but she was just doing it for Raynor" is tosh. Kerrigan was genuinely surprised when he intervened so it's all but stated that she assumed any chance at reconciliation was gone.) In short, Kerrigan actually evolves over the course of the story. In Brood War she's evil from go.

Actually to say that she did it for anyone else is really hard to say. Sure she evolved over the course of the story, but she did so in the beliefs she belonged more and more into the swarm, even after finding out Raynor was still alive. The problem with HotS was that she could have had redemption at the beginning if she reached for it, she chose not to. She instead chose to go for Mengsk regardless of the cost, and only after the Moros did she finally begin to see she had gone too far in all this. If Raynor HAD died, it would have been hard for anyone to convince her not to kill everyone in the Dominion just to get to Mengsk.

Raynor's reception to her on the Moros was the only reason why she endorsed Valerian to take over the Dominion once the Korhal invasion ends as she realized unless she put a limit to all this, she'll have learned nothing, and Raynor's efforts all these years would have been a complete waste. Ultimately almost all her mercies shown were simply for the sake to vindicate his actions all these years.

- - - Updated - - -

Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.

Is it really that hard for you to see that she felt the Dominion was no different than Mengsk?

Explain how she's conflicted beyond "feels bad about it once in a while". Plans to get revenge on Mengsk before he attacks Umoja. Ends up getting revenge on Mengsk and everything else she ever wanted because her and Raynor are Metzen's favorite characters. Wow, cool story bro. Very deep development.

The revenge part was necessary, it's just that she wasn't sure how to carry it out back then, not at the beginning of the game anyways. I keep telling you, anger can cause people to think VERY irrationally

FanaticTemplar

11-23-2015, 08:26 PM

Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.

Hmm?

I try to avoid replaying Heart of the Swarm because I can't stand the hero focused gameplay, but I thought she only attacked Dominion military targets?

Gradius

11-23-2015, 08:38 PM

Hmm?

I try to avoid replaying Heart of the Swarm because I can't stand the hero focused gameplay, but I thought she only attacked Dominion military targets?
Little bit more than that: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10160956386

Even so, if you're trying to kill one guy, Kerrigan's goal should have been assassination, not planetary warfare.

Nissa

11-23-2015, 10:31 PM

Also, Nissa cowardly dodged some of the points FanaticTemplar made about Tassadar

No, I disregarded them because FanaticTemplar wasn't getting my point, and I lost the will to debate him. That, and textwalls are overwhelming. This is an extremely presumptuous thing of you to say, and even if it were true, it's not your problem. Talk Starcraft but don't drag me into your apparent need to mock strangers on the internet.

FanaticTemplar

11-23-2015, 10:40 PM

EDIT: Okay, so for this I had to read your Battle.net posts, then replay parts of Heart of the Swarm, which I hate, then I had to fish out a something like two hour video of all the cutscenes in the game trying to catch one of the parts where Kerrigan orders her Brood Mothers on their errands, and all that for some pretty weak arguments, so I kind of ran out of patience over the course of this post. I apologise for getting sarcastic and acerbic, especially by the end.

Little bit more than that: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10160956386

Yeah, so I actually went back to play some missions in Heart of the Swarm to verify your claims, and yeah, I'm smelling a lot of bullshit there.

Takes place on a Dominion security world, Calus. As is the basic theme of the evolution missions, the swarm was already invading this world, and they had discovered essence on it after-the-fact. The world itself has absolutely nothing to do with Mengsk or Kerrigan's war against him, and culminates in the slaugther of random innocent people. Virtually the same thing happens on the splitter strain planet.

So what I see while playing the game is that Kerrigan's attacking a Dominion outpost and that those innocents are Marines, Siege Tanks, Bunkers, Vikings and Thors.

It's much the same for the other missions too, except where they involve the Protoss (I have no idea why Kerrigan's fighting the Protoss). In the Baneling mission you destroy a Dominion mining facility, in the Hydralisk mission, one of your Hive clusters is under attack by the Dominion's elite infestation specialist division of innocents. And at this point, I think I've seen enough. I don't like Heart of the Swarm enough to confirm that this is going to be the same story for everything else in that post, but I can guess.

This is the source of your outrage? This is in contrast to what, exactly? I've already brought up Tassadar and his repeated planetary genocides. How about that time Raynor and Fenix unleashed the Swarm on a neutral faction to steal their stuff and transform their miners into zombified living bombs? Remember when Artanis and Zeratul attacked a Dominion world because the Protoss forgot a crystal there ages ago and now they want it back? And in light of how well Infested Kerrigan slaughtered those Terrans, Zeratul figures that maybe he judged her too harshly?

Throughout the campaign Kerrigan gives multiple orders to brood mothers to destroy planets. We watch in one instance as the lights all over one planet are engulfed in creep, and again, we have no reason to believe that the brood mothers stopped to make their task harder in order to save civilians.

I've tried to hunt down those scenes and the one I've found was all about attacking Dominion military assets. In this case, the shipyards of Jontur II. The visuals of planets being engulfed in creep are symbolic, unless you actually believe that the entire planet was infested by a single Brood Mother before she even had the time to say "It shall be done, my Queen". You have no reason to believe the civilians were spared? You also have no reason to believe they weren't. I don't even have a reason to believe there were any there in the first place - from the example of Valhalla we know that the Dominion had military facilities on completely uninhabited worlds.

Furthermore, even on worlds dedicated to 100% military production, there are still going to be civilians working the factories.

She destroys buildings. Truly, this series has never seen such a monster.

Hey, remember in The Jacobs Installation when Raynor attacks a military installation that actually has these units clearly labeled "Civilian" that are super murderable?

'Cause I'm sure none of those guys were murdered on this completely opportunistic raid.

Kerrigan spared the civilians on these planets like she did on Korhal.

Unfortunately all the evidence seems to contradict this hypothesis. Kerrigan had to be convinced to spare civlians on Korhal by Valerian twice. First, when she discusses the invasion with him and he asks her to land outside Augustgrad. Second, when Kerrigan argues that sparing civilians would cause Mengsk to "spot the pattern" in her movements. Who honestly believes that Kerrigan bothered sparing civlians on other planets if she has to be convinced to do it here? Twice. It's almost as if she only agrees to spare civilians because Raynor is watching in the background.

Her brood mothers are still evil and sadistic. Zagara enjoys the feel of snapping protoss bones in her claws, as well as killing everyone that's not zerg. When Kerrigan orders planets destroyed, does anybody honestly believe that these same brood mothers would have went out of their way to spare civilians? Kerrigan NEVER says "spare the civilians". She only says "kill all in your path" or "leave no survivors". All I ask for is one shred of evidence that Kerrigan bothered sparing civilians before Korhal.

Done. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzT2mUTFwH0)

Even so, if you're trying to kill one guy, Kerrigan's goal should have been assassination, not planetary warfare.

Because that game didn't have enough baseless missions.

It's almost like the entire RTS genre is built on large scale warfare on the flimsiest of pretexts.

OVERMIND: I invaded Terran space and laid waste to countless worlds so I could get my hands on this prize, the only thing that can ensure my victory over the Protoss... better leave it behind and invade the Protoss without it anyway.

DUKE: Hey, we're stuck on this planet getting our arses handed to us by the Zerg. Better start a fight with the Protoss too!
TASSADAR: I too am stuck on this planet having my arse handed to me by the Zerg. I support your proposal entirely!

TASSADAR: I can't bear to see my brethren murdering one another, so I surrender. Good luck to all my supporters in their continued slaughter of my brethren, don't give up the fight!
FENIX: I guess we should attack the Conclave to liberate Tassadar.

ZERATUL: We're going on this planet to obtain a crystal. Our goal is planetary warfare, not theft.

ARTANIS: The United Earth Directorate has set up a planetary blockade against us!
ZERATUL: Can't we teleport?
ARTANIS: No, we have to fight them.

ARTANIS: I have a bold plan to deal a lot of superficial damage to the Overmind!
ZERATUL: Are we going to bombard it from orbit?
ARTANIS: No, we're going to get into melee range and hit it with our laserswords. Except the Dark Templar. Dark Templar are not allowed to hit it with their laserswords.

ALDARIS: I have discovered that your leader is mindslaved to Kerrigan! Not that I intend to tell you this in any of my multiple speeches, that might cause us to debate and consider the issue instead of having a futile and harmful civil war.

DUGALLE: Our objective here is to eliminate Arcturus Mengsk. He is our priority threat in this expedition to neutralise the aliens. For some reason.
MENGSK: Suckers, I escaped!
DUGALLE: Damn, okay, now our objective is to eliminate Arcturus Mengsk.
MENGSK: Nope! Still escaping!
DUGALLE: Well, we had to have the exact same failure twice in a row, otherwise what kind of story would it be?

STUKOV: Duran, are you betraying us?
DURAN: La la la la la! I can't hear you!
STUKOV: Yep, he's betraying us. Captain, inform DuGalle of this, I've got other things to do.
CAPTAIN: ...
DURAN: Hey Admiral, Stukov's a traitor.
DUGALLE: Really?
CAPTAIN: ...
DUGALLE: Well, guess we need to kill him then.

KERRIGAN: Okay guys, we need to invade Moria to get some resources.
RAYNOR: Can't we get these resources literally anywhere?
KERRIGAN: Invade the damned planet.
FENIX: Oh, oh, pick me!

I swear, you'd think the entire story was just cooked up to justify going from one RTS map to the next.

EDIT:

No, I disregarded them because FanaticTemplar wasn't getting my point

I bet.

Nissa

11-23-2015, 10:44 PM

Lol. Um, to be fair, Kerrigan's role for the Overmind was primarily a genetic one. They didn't specifically need her, they needed to assimilate psychics to add their genetic material to the swarm. So, technically they had what they needed when Kerri was fully infested.

Or leaving her behind was part of this plan, but got interrupted. I dunno.

ragnarok

11-24-2015, 01:55 AM

Little bit more than that: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10160956386

Even so, if you're trying to kill one guy, Kerrigan's goal should have been assassination, not planetary warfare.

What makes you think she felt Mengsk didn't prepare for assasination? Bottom line is she gave him WAY too much credit because he learned jack squat after BW.

DarthYam

11-24-2015, 02:49 AM

Better than HoTS where it's evil masquerading as good or "misunderstood anti-hero". There are still people who defend Kerrigan's actions to destroy entire planets to get revenge on one guy, because that's what Blizzard was pushing.

Quite ironic then that she goes on to unleash the zerg on multiple worlds in HoTS for a guy that didn't treat her half as bad as those people. That's one way to get a character completely wrong.

Explained in the game. The greatness of her spirit has been left to her.

That's what makes it interesting. We wonder how much of the original Sarah is still in there, and that question is finally answered in BW when Raynor vows to kill her. At this point, the insipid love story that people pretend exists should have had its final nail in the coffin if it didn't already happen after she turned into a disgusting bug creature.

Explain how she's conflicted beyond "feels bad about it once in a while". Plans to get revenge on Mengsk before he attacks Umoja. Ends up getting revenge on Mengsk and everything else she ever wanted because her and Raynor are Metzen's favorite characters. Wow, cool story bro. Very deep development.

Take off your fanboy goggles. It can't be nostalgia because I replayed BW a few months ago. And what do you know, it's still decent, and SC2 is still shit in comparison. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1.) Now you're outright lying. Templar explained how most of the worlds are military installations, and attacking them is no different from some of the missions in the original. Yes Civilians probably died in some cases. Guess what; that's war. Even more importantly, Raynor, Tassadar, Fenix and the other characters are just as guilty and you don't seem eager to acknowledge it. And "so consumed with revenge that she'll do what it takes" is more sympathetic than "HURR HURR I WANT POWUR HURR HURR" It's easier to see where she comes from, and she actually has the decency to feel bad about (she doesn't enjoy what she did to Lassara.)

2.) Given her situation (when she finally has a chance to leave things behind Mengsk promptly murders the one person who ever showed her any decency) her wanting Mengsk to pay and fuck the consequences makes sense.

3.) I still call horseshit. The overmind said she was bound to obey him and it was an unambiguously good thing. Also my point earlier was that Kerrigan was a complex individual. She wasn't an angel but she had moral traits and was by no means a monster. In Brood War she has the character depth of snidely whiplash. That's why BW was horseshit. Saying that she changed wholly of her voilition is and always was utter horseshit.

4.) When I said conflicted I meant during the Umoja arc. A part of her is considering leaving everything behind and starting a normal life with Jim. When Naktul makes a comment about how she's like the old king she's terrified and when she's trying to contact Jim she says "there's something dark in me". She only goes on the warpath fully when Mengsk gives his speech and she hears about Raynor's "death".

5.) Kerrigan got Raynor to help her because in the end she did the right thing on her own will without prompting. It's pretty damn obvious given her shock that Raynor shows up that she didn't expect him to get involved and that she assumed she burned all bridges. Therefore she did the "Spare civillians" because she realized it was right. THAT was why Raynor helped. In the end, it wasn't her power that saves her from the xel'naga artifact. It was the fact she did the right thing on her own that encouraged Raynor to help her.

Also, Nissa was totally a coward. She said Tassadar was penitent. He wasn't. If anything he felt he wasn't harsh enough. Tassadar's actions were more equivelant of a nuremberg defense.

ragnarok

11-24-2015, 09:03 AM

5.) Kerrigan got Raynor to help her because in the end she did the right thing on her own will without prompting. It's pretty damn obvious given her shock that Raynor shows up that she didn't expect him to get involved and that she assumed she burned all bridges. Therefore she did the "Spare civillians" because she realized it was right. THAT was why Raynor helped. In the end, it wasn't her power that saves her from the xel'naga artifact. It was the fact she did the right thing on her own that encouraged Raynor to help her.

I understand your point on this DarthYam, but you have to look at it from the outside POV. Sure there are those like myself who wanted to believe she learned in the end and still had the humanity in her, but there would be just as many who'd see this as nothing more than another manipulation trick.

The whole "Believe in Me" cutscene in HotS would be meaningless if presented to someone else. For example, if Raynor had told Artanis about this on Korhal, he would have simply responded that Kerrigan knew she couldn't pull the same trick like she did during the BW and expect Raynor to fall for it again, so she had to come up with something else, and THAT is why she gave him the chance to kill her.

Thus many have argued: why didn't Raynor suspect that the only reason she spared the civilians was because she was trying to manipulate him yet again?

Turalyon

11-24-2015, 09:17 AM

While he tries to be reasonable to both, with the Magistrate he's appealing to duty and responsibility, and with Duke it's a lot more pragmatic, about the failure of the Confederacy and joining the winning side. And the failure isn't so much in going for pragmatism, it's that Duke isn't especially interested in the fate of the Confederacy and wants to know what's in it for him, specifically.

As to the Magistrate, there may be no direct interaction, but Mengsk has clearly looked him up. One of the first things he says is that he expects that Magistrate to react a certain way due to his reputation.

How is this evidence of him reading people really well and not just him making assumptions of people based on their station? Mengsk knows he's talking to a Magistrate, a title given to someone who would would reasonably be expected to care for people and who has responsibilities for other people. No "reading" of a person required there, especially when the immediate situation makes it a non-choice for the Magistrate anyway.

Mengsk knows is only out for himself and offers him a position in his cabinet only after he rejects Mengsk's pragmatic overtures by claiming "I'm a general for God's Sake!". Once again, don't need to be a good reader of people to see that. That Mengsk starts off pragmatically is him making an assumption on military commanders generally being pragmatic. Then again, he doesn't really need to read the guy since that well since it's a non-decision for Duke anyway. He ask belligerently but knows his situation means that he'd have to join Mengsk or be left to die.

I don't know about that. Did Mengsk actually believe Raynor would be fine with New Gettysburg? His speech afterward has always sounded incredibly fake to me, and I always assumed he didn't expect it to work and was putting no effort into it, but still had to throw it out just in case. Maybe that's just my perspective though. Either way, I've always wondered why he didn't send Raynor out to die with Kerrigan. It seems unfathomable that he wouldn't know about his objections. Maybe he feared that Raynor would actually refuse the order. Or maybe he feared that Raynor would have a plan to escape with some of his own loyal people, and that they'd both escape if Raynor was down there.

If Mengsk could read that Raynor had a Saviour complex for Kerrigan from the get-go, surely he must also know that sending her down and leaving her there would rile him up. The simplest answer is the best - Mengsk is just not that good at reading people. In contrast, I've come to interpret Mengsk's tirade against Raynor's as him accusing Raynor of not being able to read his pragmatic, utilitarian intentions. Sure, I'm kind of leaning here, but I'm trying to put myself in Mengsk's shoes. I think Mengsk may be quite honest when he mentions the sacrifices he's made and can't understand why Raynor's drawn a specific line with Kerrigan since to Mengsk, Kerrigan's sacrifice is no different from anyone else has had to be sacrificed to get them to this position. Failing to continue from here would make all those sacrifices, including Kerrigan's, a waste. It's still megalomania for sure given he thinks he's the solution, but I think he honestly feels that bad things must be done and to not let them be done in vain (or undone as Raynor threatens and actually does) for things to ultimately get better.

Well, I consider his incompetence in Brood War to be a failure at writing the character, but if you want to believe that the character is truly inept and this competent display is the failed writing, then that's your right, but just as I have to accept that Brood War actually happened, you also have to accept that this actually happened too :p.

You're getting me wrong. I don't want to believe he's that inept but the narrative up to that point is making that decision up for me! I can't just casually dismiss a consistent representation of Mengsk being dumb, starting from BW and continuing in WoL (except for just one moment/line), just because I don't like it. I don't deny that one line is something special, but it is an anomaly based on what Mengsk is currently depicted as.

Lol. Um, to be fair, Kerrigan's role for the Overmind was primarily a genetic one. They didn't specifically need her, they needed to assimilate psychics to add their genetic material to the swarm. So, technically they had what they needed when Kerri was fully infested.

Or leaving her behind was part of this plan, but got interrupted. I dunno.

Too right! I still don't understand why people can't get that the Overmind did not leave Kerrigan behind as if she was doing nothing, was safe from harm or not helping in someway fight the Protoss. She was fighting the greatest Protoss enemy that the Overmind had ever encountered at that point: the Dark Templar! Going to Aiur was perhaps the safest thing it could do rather than remain on the planet that it's eventual killers (Tassadar, Zeratul and the DTs) were already on!! Having it's "greatest agent" fight them and keep them at bay from following does not mean Kerrigan was not doing anything to help the Overmind!!

FanaticTemplar

11-24-2015, 10:35 AM

How is this evidence of him reading people really well and not just him making assumptions of people based on their station? Mengsk knows he's talking to a Magistrate, a title given to someone who would would reasonably be expected to care for people and who has responsibilities for other people. No "reading" of a person required there, especially when the immediate situation makes it a non-choice for the Magistrate anyway.

Now that's an interesting set of assumptions. I've been wondering about the role of Magistrate for a while, and what it meant exactly. Mar Sara's Magistrate was sent to keep the colony pacified after the panic caused by the destruction of Chau Sara. I've always been curious as to where he was from, the role of planetary governor would imply someone influential within the Confederacy, but later missions disprove that, and Duke calls him a 'fringe world yokel' so he's apparently not some Confederate aristocrat being given his own planet.

EDIT: The point was that I can't accept your assumptions about what a Magistrate is, because I haven't really decided what a Magistrate is :p.

If Mengsk could read that Raynor had a Saviour complex for Kerrigan from the get-go, surely he must also know that sending her down and leaving her there would rile him up. The simplest answer is the best - Mengsk is just not that good at reading people. In contrast, I've come to interpret Mengsk's tirade against Raynor's as him accusing Raynor of not being able to read his pragmatic, utilitarian intentions. Sure, I'm kind of leaning here, but I'm trying to put myself in Mengsk's shoes. I think Mengsk may be quite honest when he mentions the sacrifices he's made and can't understand why Raynor's drawn a specific line with Kerrigan since to Mengsk, Kerrigan's sacrifice is no different from anyone else has had to be sacrificed to get them to this position. Failing to continue from here would make all those sacrifices, including Kerrigan's, a waste. It's still megalomania for sure given he thinks he's the solution, but I think he honestly feels that bad things must be done and to not let them be done in vain (or undone as Raynor threatens and actually does) for things to ultimately get better.

Raynor couldn't have had a savior-complex for Kerrigan before he lost her, since the guilt over that failure is the source of that issue.

Also, I completely disagree with your interpretation of Arcturus. Leaving Kerrigan and her forces behind wasn't purely utilitarian - we've seen him fly in to evacuate Zerg-assaulted locations before in Desperate Alliance, and a strike force large enough to fight off Tassadar's Koprulu Expedition is far more valuable than some Mar Saran colonists. Nor was his speech to Raynor utilitarian either - that whole seeds/reaping metaphor is pure vacuous hogwash.

You're getting me wrong. I don't want to believe he's that inept but the narrative up to that point is making that decision up for me! I can't just casually dismiss a consistent representation of Mengsk being dumb, starting from BW and continuing in WoL (except for just one moment/line), just because I don't like it. I don't deny that one line is something special, but it is an anomaly based on what Mengsk is currently depicted as.

As you wish. Though I think Mengsk in Wings of Liberty was usually portrayed pretty adequately and mostly came off as dumb through the actions of his subordinates (especially the news crew).

Too right! I still don't understand why people can't get that the Overmind did not leave Kerrigan behind as if she was doing nothing, was safe from harm or not helping in someway fight the Protoss. She was fighting the greatest Protoss enemy that the Overmind had ever encountered at that point: the Dark Templar! Going to Aiur was perhaps the safest thing it could do rather than remain on the planet that it's eventual killers (Tassadar, Zeratul and the DTs) were already on!! Having it's "greatest agent" fight them and keep them at bay from following does not mean Kerrigan was not doing anything to help the Overmind!!

She wasn't there to help him when Tassadar and the Dark Templar came for him, was she? And even by that argument, Zeratul's band aren't the only Dark Templar out there.

But regardless, the reason I keep bringing it up is because it doesn't fit. The Overmind despaired of overcoming the Protoss based on the memories of the Xel'naga because the Protoss had become a highly psionic race able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. The Xel'naga wouldn't even have known of the Dark Templar at the time. I accept the "Oh, she was hunting the Dark Templar" because it's the best explanation, not because it's a good one.

Nissa

11-24-2015, 12:34 PM

But regardless, the reason I keep bringing it up is because it doesn't fit. The Overmind despaired of overcoming the Protoss based on the memories of the Xel'naga because the Protoss had become a highly psionic race able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. The Xel'naga wouldn't even have known of the Dark Templar at the time. I accept the "Oh, she was hunting the Dark Templar" because it's the best explanation, not because it's a good one.

I don't necessarily agree that the DT explanation doesn't fit, but I do agree that there's no particular proof for it. It's a reasonable explanation in the sense that once the Overmind found out that the DT exist, he decided to get Kerrigan on that, perhaps as a way to test her skill. But yeah, that's only a nice explanation. The Overmind was never shown giving her orders, so it's an area we can only speculate on.

I personally feel that he left her behind as a way to make sure she didn't die on Aiur. After all, he was taking a huge risk in going there himself, and there's no sense in letting his pet project die before she reaches her potential.

Gradius

11-24-2015, 02:10 PM

So what I see while playing the game is that Kerrigan's attacking a Dominion outpost and that those innocents are Marines, Siege Tanks, Bunkers, Vikings and Thors.

It's much the same for the other missions too, except where they involve the Protoss (I have no idea why Kerrigan's fighting the Protoss). In the Baneling mission you destroy a Dominion mining facility, in the Hydralisk mission, one of your Hive clusters is under attack by the Dominion's elite infestation specialist division of innocents. And at this point, I think I've seen enough. I don't like Heart of the Swarm enough to confirm that this is going to be the same story for everything else in that post, but I can guess.

Those planets have little to do with the war effort. If you're trying to assassinate Mengsk, or even raze Korhal, what the hell do random mining facilities have to do with that? With the massive responsibility of commanding zerg, Kerrigan should be attempting to minimize the loss of life, especially soldiers that don't deserve to die for signing up to defend against bloodthirsty planet-destroying bug monsters. Assassination should be her option, and if she still needs her revenge, then other planets become irrelevant in a sacking of Korhal.

This is the source of your outrage? This is in contrast to what, exactly? I've already brought up Tassadar and his repeated planetary genocides. How about that time Raynor and Fenix unleashed the Swarm on a neutral faction to steal their stuff and transform their miners into zombified living bombs? Remember when Artanis and Zeratul attacked a Dominion world because the Protoss forgot a crystal there ages ago and now they want it back? And in light of how well Infested Kerrigan slaughtered those Terrans, Zeratul figures that maybe he judged her too harshly?
All people who were actually fighting a real war, not trying to get revenge on one guy who's family you murdered. Tassadar for example could be argued to have saved more lives by preventing the zerg infestation from spreading. Can you prove that it's not the case? I can sure as hell prove that Kerrigan didn't spare civilians when she could have. Also, if you condemn him for destroying planets, then you'd be a hypocrite for not recognizing that him disobeying his orders was an honorable thing to do and proof that he changed as a character for the better. Nobody had to talk him into it, and he suffered consequences. Kerrigan got a pat on the back from almost everyone and never actually apologized for killing those specific people.

Hypothetical question: Somebody tortured you and tried to kill you. You escaped and vowed to get revenge. You find out that he's hiding in Russia, but you can't get in. So now the only way to kill him is to launch a nuke knowing it will kill millions of people. So you push that button or do you put your revenge on hold? Because that's what zerg are, an easy-win button that will destroy whatever planet you want given that they're genetic clones who are only given enough intelligence to perform their required function of killing people.

I've tried to hunt down those scenes and the one I've found was all about attacking Dominion military assets. In this case, the shipyards of Jontur II. The visuals of planets being engulfed in creep are symbolic, unless you actually believe that the entire planet was infested by a single Brood Mother before she even had the time to say "It shall be done, my Queen".
It's not symbolic. It's a time lapse. Engulfing the entire planet with creep is something that zerg definitely do according to the lore.

http://imageshack.us/a/img832/7636/cruxas32.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg

That planet right there could easily be mistaken for Korhal, a planet with billions of humans on it.

You have no reason to believe the civilians were spared? You also have no reason to believe they weren't.
Ah the classic religious logic rebuttal. We have cocooned civilian doodads. Kerrigan having to be talked into sparing civilians on Korhal twice. Kerrigan keeps repeating "kill all in your path" and "leave no survivors". Never do we hear her say "destroy this planet but leave the civilians", unless Jim is watching in the background somewhere.

I don't even have a reason to believe there were any there in the first place - from the example of Valhalla we know that the Dominion had military facilities on completely uninhabited worlds.
No civilians? Absolutely ridiculous. What are apartment buildings doing on Cruxas III? What are all those lights from orbit? Robots managing the entire Dominion industrial complex? The warhound short story describes how civilians live/work in military installations. There's people there.

Valhalla? Prove there's no people there. There's the military installation, but prove that the rest of the lights aren't civilians and the moon is "uninhabited"? There's the scientist units that you consider incontrovertible proof. It's a research campus.

She destroys buildings. Truly, this series has never seen such a monster.

Hey, remember in The Jacobs Installation when Raynor attacks a military installation that actually has these units clearly labeled "Civilian" that are super murderable?

'Cause I'm sure none of those guys were murdered on this completely opportunistic raid.
Raynor wouldn't shoot civilians that pose no threat to him. Kerrigan has to be talked into sparing civilians because they're in the way and would make her invasion with bug monsters a little bit harder.

Done.
I asked for civilians. Those are all military personnel according to you, and therefore their lives don't matter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's so nice of Kerrigan to spare those people after she had already destroyed their base, got what she wanted, and they were "too injured to ever be a threat". It's too bad that even the Queen of Blades in Brood War spared people too. Civilians too no less since she left everyone alive for 4 years.

OVERMIND: I invaded Terran space and laid waste to countless worlds so I could get my hands on this prize, the only thing that can ensure my victory over the Protoss... better leave it behind and invade the Protoss without it anyway.
The Overmind is an amoral alien entity, not a human who's supposed to not be a murderer anymore.

DUKE: Hey, we're stuck on this planet getting our arses handed to us by the Zerg. Better start a fight with the Protoss too!
TASSADAR: I too am stuck on this planet having my arse handed to me by the Zerg. I support your proposal entirely!
Duke's entire schtick is that he's an asshole, and Tassadar is attempting to scare him off while reminding him that he owes him one.

TASSADAR: I can't bear to see my brethren murdering one another, so I surrender. Good luck to all my supporters in their continued slaughter of my brethren, don't give up the fight!
FENIX: I guess we should attack the Conclave to liberate Tassadar.
He says don't give up the fight against the zerg, not keep fighting the Conclave. Pretty dishonest representation.

ZERATUL: We're going on this planet to obtain a crystal. Our goal is planetary warfare, not theft.
Ok, obviously the terrans didn't just agree to give them the crystal. What's your point?

ARTANIS: The United Earth Directorate has set up a planetary blockade against us!
ZERATUL: Can't we teleport?
ARTANIS: No, we have to fight them.
Now your complaint is that the UED set up a blockade that performs its required function of blockading fleets? K.

ARTANIS: I have a bold plan to deal a lot of superficial damage to the Overmind!
ZERATUL: Are we going to bombard it from orbit?
ARTANIS: No, we're going to get into melee range and hit it with our laserswords. Except the Dark Templar. Dark Templar are not allowed to hit it with their laserswords.

ALDARIS: I have discovered that your leader is mindslaved to Kerrigan! Not that I intend to tell you this in any of my multiple speeches, that might cause us to debate and consider the issue instead of having a futile and harmful civil war.

STUKOV: Duran, are you betraying us?
DURAN: La la la la la! I can't hear you!
STUKOV: Yep, he's betraying us. Captain, inform DuGalle of this, I've got other things to do.
CAPTAIN: ...
DURAN: Hey Admiral, Stukov's a traitor.
DUGALLE: Really?
CAPTAIN: ...
DUGALLE: Well, guess we need to kill him then.
These have been known flaws of BW since forever ago.

DUGALLE: Our objective here is to eliminate Arcturus Mengsk. He is our priority threat in this expedition to neutralise the aliens. For some reason.
MENGSK: Suckers, I escaped!
DUGALLE: Damn, okay, now our objective is to eliminate Arcturus Mengsk.
MENGSK: Nope! Still escaping!
DUGALLE: Well, we had to have the exact same failure twice in a row, otherwise what kind of story would it be?
The UED has an unexplained vendetta against Mengsk, and are an evil faction there to enslave the sector. What's your point? It's pretty consistent unlike Kerrigan who gets thrown a pity party after murdering a bunch of civilians.

KERRIGAN: Okay guys, we need to invade Moria to get some resources.
RAYNOR: Can't we get these resources literally anywhere?
KERRIGAN: Invade the damned planet.
FENIX: Oh, oh, pick me!

I swear, you'd think the entire story was just cooked up to justify going from one RTS map to the next.
"Moria is the richest resource node in the sector."

Clearly they wouldn't have given them resources to fight the UED. But notice how these are actual wars between entire factions due to ideological differences, not petty quests to get revenge on one guy who tried to kill you once.

EDIT: Okay, so for this I had to read your Battle.net posts, then replay parts of Heart of the Swarm, which I hate, then I had to fish out a something like two hour video of all the cutscenes in the game trying to catch one of the parts where Kerrigan orders her Brood Mothers on their errands, and all that for some pretty weak arguments, so I kind of ran out of patience over the course of this post. I apologise for getting sarcastic and acerbic, especially by the end.

Little bit more than that: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/10160956386
Yeah, so I actually went back to play some missions in Heart of the Swarm to verify your claims, and yeah, I'm smelling a lot of bullshit there.
Not impressed. You threw a couple strawmen and false analogies at me while dismissing the mountain of evidence that Kerrigan is an evil mass murderer? Either replay HoTS or consider that you're a victim of confirmation bias.

1.) Now you're outright lying. Templar explained how most of the worlds are military installations, and attacking them is no different from some of the missions in the original. Yes Civilians probably died in some cases. Guess what; that's war. Even more importantly, Raynor, Tassadar, Fenix and the other characters are just as guilty and you don't seem eager to acknowledge it. And "so consumed with revenge that she'll do what it takes" is more sympathetic than "HURR HURR I WANT POWUR HURR HURR" It's easier to see where she comes from, and she actually has the decency to feel bad about (she doesn't enjoy what she did to Lassara.)
No they are not as guilty, because they didn't slaughter millions of unrelated people because of a vendetta against one guy.

Just read the thread. It's blatantly obvious, especially with the worlds that get consumed by creep, that civilian death toll should be outrageous.

2.) Given her situation (when she finally has a chance to leave things behind Mengsk promptly murders the one person who ever showed her any decency) her wanting Mengsk to pay and fuck the consequences makes sense.
4.) When I said conflicted I meant during the Umoja arc. A part of her is considering leaving everything behind and starting a normal life with Jim.
For the fiftieth time, she planned on getting revenge right from the start. The game has Raynor trying to talk her out of it. Maybe "part of her" wants to abandon her quest, but most of her doesn't, and with the massive responsibility that she has with commanding zerg, she has failed utterly to use her power judiciously, so I could care less.

3.) I still call horseshit. The overmind said she was bound to obey him and it was an unambiguously good thing. Also my point earlier was that Kerrigan was a complex individual. She wasn't an angel but she had moral traits and was by no means a monster. In Brood War she has the character depth of snidely whiplash. That's why BW was horseshit. Saying that she changed wholly of her voilition is and always was utter horseshit.
Ok, think what you want but at no point does it say she's obligated to obey the Overmind. It says the opposite. She's allied with zerg but free to do as she wants.

In BW she was a monster, but one of the more interesting ones I've seen, and far more interesting than Amon, Narud or any of the other baddies in SC2. Dialogue that actually meant something and made you think as opposed to "braahhhhmgoingtokillyouuuuuuu!"

When Naktul makes a comment about how she's like the old king she's terrified and when she's trying to contact Jim she says "there's something dark in me". She only goes on the warpath fully when Mengsk gives his speech and she hears about Raynor's "death".
So her response is to launch an invasion of multiple planets? There are people here on Earth that have had it way worse and wouldn't resort to mass murder. I have no sympathy for her.

5.) Kerrigan got Raynor to help her because in the end she did the right thing on her own will without prompting. It's pretty damn obvious given her shock that Raynor shows up that she didn't expect him to get involved and that she assumed she burned all bridges. Therefore she did the "Spare civillians" because she realized it was right. THAT was why Raynor helped. In the end, it wasn't her power that saves her from the xel'naga artifact. It was the fact she did the right thing on her own that encouraged Raynor to help her.
After Valerian guilted her into doing it. Let's give her the Nobel Peace prize.

Raynor helped her because he's also a pscyhopath. Of course I wouldn't expect Raynor to forgive Kerrigan after five minutes, and neither did she apparently, but that doesn't mean she didn't save the civilians because Jim was watching. And even if she did, one act of goodwill among an entire campaign of mass murder isn't enough to make up for it.

Also, Nissa was totally a coward. She said Tassadar was penitent. He wasn't. If anything he felt he wasn't harsh enough. Tassadar's actions were more equivelant of a nuremberg defense.
Well Fanatic is completely off base here. The "war is war" excuse actually does apply to Tassadar and you could easily argue that he helped prevent more damage.

FanaticTemplar

11-24-2015, 06:48 PM

Those planets have little to do with the war effort. If you're trying to assassinate Mengsk, or even raze Korhal, what the hell do random mining facilities have to do with that? With the massive responsibility of commanding zerg, Kerrigan should be attempting to minimize the loss of life, especially soldiers that don't deserve to die for signing up to defend against bloodthirsty planet-destroying bug monsters. Assassination should be her option, and if she still needs her revenge, then other planets become irrelevant in a sacking of Korhal.

Those planets provide the military might of the Dominion. Prevent them from supplying the Dominion's military, you weaken the enemy's forces. This is basic.

All people who were actually fighting a real war, not trying to get revenge on one guy who's family you murdered.

Bullshit. When the leader of one of the most powerful forces in the galactic sector invests the full military might of his empire into destroying you, you're already in a real war.

Tassadar for example could be argued to have saved more lives by preventing the zerg infestation from spreading. Can you prove that it's not the case? I can sure as hell prove that Kerrigan didn't spare civilians when she could have. Also, if you condemn him for destroying planets, then you'd be a hypocrite for not recognizing that him disobeying his orders was an honorable thing to do and proof that he changed as a character for the better. Nobody had to talk him into it, and he suffered consequences. Kerrigan got a pat on the back from almost everyone and never actually apologized for killing those specific people.

Bullshit. Tassadar never apologised for killing those specific people and is recognised as a legendary hero. Fenix and Raynor never apologised for killing those specific people, and all they got were congratulations - for attacking other planets to sack Korhal, as you put it. Nobody apologises for invading Braxis, and Zeratul considers it to be a sign that Kerrigan is actually not as bad as he thought.

It's not symbolic. It's a time lapse. Engulfing the entire planet with creep is something that zerg definitely do according to the lore.

http://imageshack.us/a/img832/7636/cruxas32.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg

That planet right there could easily be mistaken for Korhal, a planet with billions of humans on it.

Can you demonstrate your assertion?

Ah the classic religious logic rebuttal.

Yes, "In the absence of evidence, one cannot draw conclusions" is the classic religious logic rebuttal.

You, meanwhile, are using the sound logic of "in the absence of evidence, whatever I want to believe must be true!"

Bullshit.

Valhalla? Prove there's no people there.

Very well, I retract my assertion.

Raynor wouldn't shoot civilians that pose no threat to him.

Of course not. No civilians were harmed during The Jacobs Installation. They were put into the game and not made invincible because they knew we would micro around them to keep them alive.

Kerrigan has to be talked into sparing civilians because they're in the way and would make her invasion with bug monsters a little bit harder.

Which makes her one of only two characters in the history of StarCraft to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths. And the absolute only one to have done so repeatedly.

Can you quote to something better - or even equal - being proposed when Raynor and Fenix attacked Korhal in Brood War? How about when Kerrigan and Raynor unleashed the Zerg on Tarsonis? Oh, they issued an objection, but they stayed with the Sons of Korhal to enjoy the victory, didn't they? Civilians were pretty explicitly not spared in that one.

I asked for civilians. Those are all military personnel according to you, and therefore their lives don't matter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So we're agreed that she's spared both military personnel and civilians when they weren't a threat to her. You're off to a great start with your position there.

The Overmind is an amoral alien entity, not a human who's supposed to not be a murderer anymore.

Duke's entire schtick is that he's an asshole, and Tassadar is attempting to scare him off while reminding him that he owes him one.

He says don't give up the fight against the zerg, not keep fighting the Conclave. Pretty dishonest representation.

Ok, obviously the terrans didn't just agree to give them the crystal. What's your point?

Now your complaint is that the UED set up a blockade that performs its required function of blockading fleets? K.

These have been known flaws of BW since forever ago.

The UED has an unexplained vendetta against Mengsk, and are an evil faction there to enslave the sector. What's your point? It's pretty consistent unlike Kerrigan who gets thrown a pity party after murdering a bunch of civilians.

Man, I really wish I'd said something like "It's almost like the entire RTS genre is built on large scale warfare on the flimsiest of pretexts." so you would have known what the point was instead of completely flailing about.

"Moria is the richest resource node in the sector."

Clearly they wouldn't have given them resources to fight the UED. But notice how these are actual wars between entire factions due to ideological differences, not petty quests to get revenge on one guy who tried to kill you once.

Not impressed. You threw a couple strawmen and false analogies at me while dismissing the mountain of evidence that Kerrigan is an evil mass murderer? Either replay HoTS or consider that you're a victim of confirmation bias.

"Kerrigan is the greatest monster in history because she destroyed the military troops of an enemy who was trying to kill her, but Raynor and Fenix are a-ok for launching a brutal murder party on a neutral faction and turning their miners into zombified living bombs, because those people somehow believed they were entitled to owning their own stuff."

Yeah, I've read your posts. I didn't expect you to be impressed by facts or reason.

ragnarok

11-24-2015, 06:51 PM

I don't necessarily agree that the DT explanation doesn't fit, but I do agree that there's no particular proof for it. It's a reasonable explanation in the sense that once the Overmind found out that the DT exist, he decided to get Kerrigan on that, perhaps as a way to test her skill. But yeah, that's only a nice explanation. The Overmind was never shown giving her orders, so it's an area we can only speculate on.

I personally feel that he left her behind as a way to make sure she didn't die on Aiur. After all, he was taking a huge risk in going there himself, and there's no sense in letting his pet project die before she reaches her potential.

I wouldn't say the Overmind was taking a huge risk. Likely it had observed the actions between the Khalai and Nerazim on Char, and saw the tension problems. Perhaps it felt the Khalai would never want anything to do with the Dark Templar and without them there's no way to stop the swarm on Aiur.

On the other hand, leaving Kerrigan on Char was necessary for the sake to hunt down Zeratul and the Dark Templar. Not really sure WHERE exactly the Overmind was on Char at that time, but maybe he felt Zeratul's actions could kill him as well and therefore may begin looking for him. Kerrigan therefore will serve as both the deterrent and the distraction

Gradius

11-24-2015, 07:52 PM

Yeah, I've read your posts. I didn't expect you to be impressed by facts or reason.
Not sure I like your attitude. But alright, I can do heated debates. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Those planets provide the military might of the Dominion. Prevent them from supplying the Dominion's military, you weaken the enemy's forces. This is basic.
You get that we're attacking one planet? Supply planets are irrelevant in a Blitzkrieg. That's basic. A factory isn't going to produce a Viking and get it onto the field during the time that Kerrigan spends attacking Korhal.

This isn't WW2 where you have to plow through Europe and worry about supply lines. You can warp straight there and Kerrigan has the Leviathans to keep reinforcements out.

Hypothetical question: Somebody tortured you and tried to kill you. You escaped and vowed to get revenge. You find out that he's hiding in Russia, but you can't get in. So now the only way to kill him is to launch a nuke knowing it will kill millions of people. So you push that button or do you put your revenge on hold? Because that's what zerg are, an easy-win button that will destroy whatever planet you want given that they're genetic clones who are only given enough intelligence to perform their required function of killing people.
Answer the question.

Bullshit. When the leader of one of the most powerful forces in the galactic sector invests the full military might of his empire into destroying you, you're already in a real war.
So leave. It's your life vs. millions of people. Kerrigan has an army of renewable bloodthirsty slaves to protect her.

Bullshit. Tassadar never apologised for killing those specific people and is recognised as a legendary hero. Fenix and Raynor never apologised for killing those specific people, and all they got were congratulations - for attacking other planets to sack Korhal, as you put it. Nobody apologises for invading Braxis, and Zeratul considers it to be a sign that Kerrigan is actually not as bad as he thought.
Tassadar doesn't have jack to apologize for. The order to purge planets is on the Conclave, not him, and for all we know he indirectly saved many more lives. Fenix & Raynor were fighting against a faction that was going to enslave the entire sector, which the Morians allied themselves with. Why the hell should they apologize? The war is war excuse actually applies here.

Can you demonstrate your assertion?
It's in the game therefore it happened? -_-

Yes, "In the absence of evidence, one cannot draw conclusions" is the classic religious logic rebuttal.

You, meanwhile, are using the sound logic of "in the absence of evidence, whatever I want to believe must be true!"

Bullshit.
Not sure if joking or serious. I link you an entire article full of evidence and you say "you have no evidence". Get over your confirmation bias. Be honest, were you planning to disagree before you had even read it based on your one cursory HoTS playthrough?

You say "In the absence of evidence, one cannot draw conclusions", and in the meantime go on to ignore evidence that I provide on that same line: "We have cocooned civilian doodads. Kerrigan having to be talked into sparing civilians on Korhal twice. Kerrigan keeps repeating "kill all in your path" and "leave no survivors". Never do we hear her say "destroy this planet but leave the civilians", unless Jim is watching in the background somewhere."

There are civilians on planets. Those planets were ordered to be wiped out. Therefore the civilians died.

1+1 = 2

Get it? Or if that's too hard just replay Kaldir. Confirmed colonists being slaughtered by Kerrigan because the prospect of the protoss finding out that she's alive might make her invasion a little bit harder.

Of course not. No civilians were harmed during The Jacobs Installation. They were put into the game and not made invincible because they knew we would micro around them to keep them alive.
If you think Raynor choosing to open fire on civilians for no good reason fits the narrative and his character, that's your prerogative. Guess he slaughtered some more innocent scientists on Valhalla then.

Which makes her one of only two characters in the history of StarCraft to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths. And the absolute only one to have done so repeatedly.
Haha, yeah I'm glad those civilians on Cruxas III were liberated from their bodies by Kerrigan. -_-

Raynor - helped rescue people on Mar Sara. Sent a rescue mission to Char. Helped rescue protoss at the start of BW.
Kerrigan - went out of her way to plant emitters so that only military targets on Antiga would be targeted.
Mengsk - helped rescue civilians on Mar Sara too.
Tassadar - spared civilians on Tarsonis, tried to stop more Protoss from dying in the civil war.
Zeratul - went out of his way to save protoss civilians in BW. etc.

Can you quote to something better - or even equal - being proposed when Raynor and Fenix attacked Korhal in Brood War? How about when Kerrigan and Raynor unleashed the Zerg on Tarsonis? Oh, they issued an objection, but they stayed with the Sons of Korhal to enjoy the victory, didn't they? Civilians were pretty explicitly not spared in that one.
Kerrigan was delusional and believed Arcturus would come around. Raynor left. What victory did he enjoy? What the hell are you talking about?

So we're agreed that she's spared both military personnel and civilians when they weren't a threat to her. You're off to a great start with your position there.
She didn't spare crap. She smashed that base, killed a ton of people on Char, and only after Warfield pleaded with her by bringing up Jim did she consider letting injured soldiers evacuate. That's the only time she spares civilians, when Jim is involved.

Man, I really wish I'd said something like "It's almost like the entire RTS genre is built on large scale warfare on the flimsiest of pretexts." so you would have known what the point was instead of completely flailing about.

"Moria is the richest resource node in the sector."
I'm sorry, I thought you were trying to make your argument remotely relative to the topic at hand. Proceed with the false analogies as per normal then.

"Kerrigan is the greatest monster in history because she destroyed the military troops of an enemy who was trying to kill her, but Raynor and Fenix are a-ok for launching a brutal murder party on a neutral faction and turning their miners into zombified living bombs, because those people somehow believed they were entitled to owning their own stuff."
Ok, let me kill off some brain cells and assume that Raynor and Fenix are assholes for assaulting a faction that allied themselves with the UED, who were going to enslave everyone. How does this justify Kerrigan's mass murder of multiple planets?

Yeah, I've read your posts. I didn't expect you to be impressed by argument from ignorance.
Fixed that for you.

Sorry, but your position that planets with lights, industrial complexes and buildings on them are devoid of civilians is completely idiotic. Tell me again about how the Brood Mothers would have went out of their way to spare them?

Nissa

11-24-2015, 08:34 PM

Not to support Fanatic's side, or any side, but I'd like to address something.

Tassadar doesn't have jack to apologize for. The order to purge planets is on the Conclave, not him, and for all we know he indirectly saved many more lives. Fenix & Raynor were fighting against a faction that was going to enslave the entire sector, which the Morians allied themselves with. Why the hell should they apologize? The war is war excuse actually applies here.

Not sure that's true. There's the whole thing about whether someone is guilty for what they were ordered to do (take, say, Nazis), and I don't think it fully excuses Tassadar that the Conclave told him to. Tassadar knew that destroying the human worlds without trying to save the uninfested was wrong. Also, since the Protoss didn't declare war, we can question whether or not war is an excuse.

On the other hand, Tassadar did see the error of his ways, and befriended both humans and DTs. He set aside the self-superior attitudes of Aiur to help others. And despite war not really being an excuse, there was some logic to the idea of destroying the infested worlds.

Did you mean to say Morians? I don't recall them allying with Fenix and Raynor.

Gradius

11-24-2015, 08:54 PM

Not sure that's true. There's the whole thing about whether someone is guilty for what they were ordered to do (take, say, Nazis), and I don't think it fully excuses Tassadar that the Conclave told him to. Tassadar knew that destroying the human worlds without trying to save the uninfested was wrong. Also, since the Protoss didn't declare war, we can question whether or not war is an excuse.
I'm sure they were technically at war with the zerg. It's like the Japan firebombing raids; I doubt anybody was happy with killing civilians, but Japan had to be stopped. Nazis weren't the only ones guilty of killing innocent civilians.

On the other hand, Tassadar did see the error of his ways, and befriended both humans and DTs. He set aside the self-superior attitudes of Aiur to help others. And despite war not really being an excuse, there was some logic to the idea of destroying the infested worlds.

Did you mean to say Morians? I don't recall them allying with Fenix and Raynor.
It's implied the Morians allied with the UED because they were still operational while the Dominion is in shambles.

FanaticTemplar

11-24-2015, 09:08 PM

You get that we're attacking one planet? Supply planets are irrelevant in a Blitzkrieg. That's basic. A factory isn't going to produce a Viking and get it onto the field during the time that Kerrigan spends attacking Korhal.

This isn't WW2 where you have to plow through Europe and worry about supply lines. You can warp straight there and Kerrigan has the Leviathans to keep reinforcements out.

One planet that Mengsk recalled all his forces to, so destroying those forces while they're separated makes the defense weaker. According to the wiki, there were about three months between Arcturus' first attack against Kerrigan and his death, that's a lot of military hardware Arcturus can get from multiple planets' worth of production in that time. Your "one planet" premise is wrong. She was fighting the entire might of the Terran Dominion.

Answer the question.

Why would I? It's completely irrelevant.

So leave. It's your life vs. millions of people. Kerrigan has an army of renewable bloodthirsty slaves to protect her.

Ah yes, live your life on the run because fighting back against sadistic dictators hell-bent on your demise makes you the incarnation of evil. Raynor and Fenix should've run from the UED in Brood War then. They all should've run from the Confederacy in Rebel Yell. And what of Tassadar, Fenix and Zeratul's truly evil decision to return to Aiur and fight the Conclave?

Even by your inane standards there's nothing novel here.

Tassadar doesn't have jack to apologize for. The order to purge planets is on the Conclave, not him, and for all we know he indirectly saved many more lives.

Tassadar is only guilty of repeated planetary genocides, not a truly heinous crime like destroying an enemy military outpost! Only the most irrational minds would find people who commit horrible crimes guilty if they were ordered to do so.

Fenix & Raynor were fighting against a faction that was going to enslave the entire sector,

Said Kerrigan, who spends all of Brood War being honest.

So what happened to running?

Why the hell should they apologize? The war is war excuse actually applies here.

Of course. Being at war with the Dominion is no excuse for killing Dominion troops. Being at war with the UED fully excuses killing Morians because stealing their stuff is easier than mining it yourself.

It's in the game therefore it happened? -_-

Ah, so you are asserting that the entire planet got covered in creep before Ryloth even got the time to receive her orders. Very well, if that's the insanity you want to believe.

Not sure if joking or serious. I link you an entire article full of evidence and you say "you have no evidence".

Bullshit. Every claim of yours that I've fact-checked has been made up. But in this specific case, I asked for evidence that she's been murdering civilians in her Brood Mother orders (hell, I'd ask for evidence that she's been murdering civilians above and beyond what other characters have done, but one thing at a time). This is what's in your article as "evidence":

We watch in one instance as the lights all over one planet are engulfed in creep, and again, we have no reason to believe that the brood mothers stopped to make their task harder in order to save civilians.

Lights go dark and absence of evidence. That's your "mountains of evidence". Somehow I remain unconvinced.

Get over your confirmation bias. Be honest, were you planning to disagree before you had even read it based on your one cursory HoTS playthrough?

Get over yourself. I hated Heart of the Swarm. I think Kerrigan does absolutely nothing to earn her stupid angelic ascension and "redemption". I asked that original question completely expecting you to provide me with an actual case of Kerrigan attacking something that wasn't a Dominion military target. Your position was so staggeringly dishonest that I had to refute it.

If you think Raynor choosing to open fire on civilians for no good reason fits the narrative and his character, that's your prerogative. Guess he slaughtered some more innocent scientists on Valhalla then.

So now it's about fitting a narrative and no longer about "It's in the game therefore it happened? -_-"

Raynor - helped rescue people on Mar Sara. Sent a rescue mission to Char. Helped rescue protoss at the start of BW.
Kerrigan - went out of her way to plant emitters so that only military targets on Antiga would be targeted.
Mengsk - helped rescue civilians on Mar Sara too.
Tassadar - spared civilians on Tarsonis, tried to stop more Protoss from dying in the civil war.
Zeratul - went out of his way to save protoss civilians in BW. etc.

Fascinating how you went from "Kerrigan make efforts to save civilians in those places she's attacking" to "other people make plenty of efforts to save civilians they are trying to protect". Almost like you expected me not to notice. But no, Kerrigan is still one of only two people to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths.

Kerrigan was delusional and believed Arcturus would come around. Raynor left. What victory did he enjoy? What the hell are you talking about?

It's simple. The Sons of Korhal unleashed the Zerg upon Tarsonis. Raynor and Kerrigan remained members of the Sons of Korhal despite this act. This is much, more evil than anything you have demonstrated Kerrigan doing to the Dominion in Heart of the Swarm.

She didn't spare crap.

Outright lie. Those wounded were going to get slaughtered by the Zerg and she spared them.

I'm sorry, I thought you were trying to make your argument remotely relative to the topic at hand. Proceed with the false analogies as per normal then.

I would have assumed that "this is an RTS wargame, not a stealth assassination game" would be relevant to why problems are solved with real-time strategy wars and not stealth assassinations. But hey, you hate that StarCraft II was about large scale conflict, that's fine.

Ok, let me kill off some brain cells and assume that Raynor and Fenix are assholes for assaulting a faction that allied themselves with the UED, who were going to enslave everyone. How does this justify Kerrigan's mass murder of multiple planets?

It's not, it's an argument that you're being completely irrational in blaming her for things you are completely fine with others doing.

Sorry, but your position that planets with lights, industrial complexes and buildings on them are devoid of civilians is completely idiotic. Tell me again about how the Brood Mothers would have went out of their way to spare them?

Tell me when Kerrigan killed civilians. Your entire argument is "Kerrigan used the Zerg to attack Dominion military assets. Can you prove that no civilians were harmed in those? Therefore she is a satan."

I told you earlier, absence of evidence doesn't allow you to assume whatever you wish.

DarthYam

11-24-2015, 10:01 PM

Gradius

11-24-2015, 10:07 PM

One planet that Mengsk recalled all his forces to, so destroying those forces while they're separated makes the defense weaker. According to the wiki, there were about three months between Arcturus' first attack against Kerrigan and his death, that's a lot of military hardware Arcturus can get from multiple planets' worth of production in that time. Your "one planet" premise is wrong. She was fighting the entire might of the Terran Dominion.
It doesn't take 3 months to destroy a planet. Mengsk recalled all his forces to Korhal anyway, so the idea that smashing random out-of-the-way planets would "make the defenses weaker" is nonsense.

Why would I? It's completely irrelevant.
Find a more accurate analogy then. You're telling me Kerrigan is obligated to kill millions of people because Mengsk tried to kill her. Only a psychopath would sacrifice millions of others to save themselves. I'd pick a life on the run over that any day.

Razing a bunch of innocent planets makes you the incarnation of evil.
Fixed.

Raynor and Fenix should've run from the UED in Brood War then. They all should've run from the Confederacy in Rebel Yell. And what of Tassadar, Fenix and Zeratul's truly evil decision to return to Aiur and fight the Conclave?

Even by your inane standards there's nothing novel here.
Those groups were screwing over more than just one person. They were fighting for more than themselves or pretty revenge against one person. Got any more false analogies?

Tassadar is only guilty of repeated planetary genocides, not a truly heinous crime like destroying an enemy military outpost! Only the most irrational minds would find people who commit horrible crimes guilty if they were ordered to do so.
Since the repeated logic of Tassadar following orders to contain the infestation and save more lives won't sink in with you, maybe I can appeal to your emotions?

What would you take? A purification beam? Or being eviscerated by a zerg hydralisk's claws? I'd take the purification beam any day. Because the latter is what would happen if Tassadar did nothing. I'd much rather be a civilian on a planet that Tassadar attacked than one Kerrigan attacked.

Said Kerrigan, who spends all of Brood War being honest.
He can think for himself:

"You've studied their history, you know I'm right Jim"

Project Purification ring any bells?

Of course. Being at war with the Dominion is no excuse for killing Dominion troops. Being at war with the UED fully excuses killing Morians because stealing their stuff is easier than mining it yourself.
Raynor didn't start the war. Kerrigan is singlehandedly responsible for doing so.

Faaaalse Anaaaloooogyyyy! :0

Ah, so you are asserting that the entire planet got covered in creep before Ryloth even got the time to receive her orders. Very well, if that's the insanity you want to believe.
Do you get what a time lapse is? I don't want to have to insult both of our intelligences again and have to explain it a second time.

There was also a time lapse in the baneling evolution missions showcasing lava cycles and in the roach mission as well.

Bullshit. Every claim of yours that I've fact-checked has been made up.
It sounds like you haven't fact-checked shit. Gave up several cinematics in as per your own admission.

But in this specific case, I asked for evidence that she's been murdering civilians in her Brood Mother orders (hell, I'd ask for evidence that she's been murdering civilians above and beyond what other characters have done, but one thing at a time). This is what's in your article as "evidence":

Lights go dark and absence of evidence. That's your "mountains of evidence". Somehow I remain unconvinced.
So what the hell happened to the lights? "Oh shit, zerg are here, let's turn our lights off"?

It's pretty damning and obvious evidence. Remind me again what evidence you have that civilians were spared in these instance? Oh right, absolutely nothing.

I asked that original question completely expecting you to provide me with an actual case of Kerrigan attacking something that wasn't a Dominion military target. Your position was so staggeringly dishonest that I had to refute it.
Play the bloody game. Kaldir itself is a confirmed colony where you kill confirmed colonists. And Kerrigan already knew in advance there'd be protoss there. There are damaged apartment buildings, roads, and signs in the screenshot I keep showing you of the planet that Kerrigan is invading. The massive hypocrisy that must go into calling me dishonest should be mind numbing.

It's fine if you disagree with my position, but incessantly regurgitating "you have no evidence" after multiple explicit references from the game is either full-blown confirmation bias or blatant dishonesty.

So now it's about fitting a narrative and no longer about "It's in the game therefore it happened? -_-"
Everyone saw the planet get engulfed in creep. Sorry, didn't kill any civilians on my playthrough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Fascinating how you went from "Kerrigan make efforts to save civilians in those places she's attacking" to "other people make plenty of efforts to save civilians they are trying to protect". Almost like you expected me not to notice. But no, Kerrigan is still one of only two people to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths.
Both qualify as "characters in the history of StarCraft to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths."

It's simple. The Sons of Korhal unleashed the Zerg upon Tarsonis. Raynor and Kerrigan remained members of the Sons of Korhal despite this act. This is much, more evil than anything you have demonstrated Kerrigan doing to the Dominion in Heart of the Swarm.
What did you expect some official resignation from Raynor who's in a position to do jack crap? Saying he "enjoyed a victory" is blatant dishonesty when he rebels the very next mission at a time when he gains nothing from doing so.

Kerrigan is delusional and holds out hope that he'll come around. Delusional =/= evil.

Outright lie. Those wounded were going to get slaughtered by the Zerg and she spared them.
Yes, her zerg. It's like walking into a police station, shooting up the place, leaving bodies everywhere, and then asking for credit because you spared two cops at the end who were too injured to ever be a threat to you. Completely idiotic.

I would have assumed that "this is an RTS wargame, not a stealth assassination game" would be relevant to why problems are solved with real-time strategy wars and not stealth assassinations. But hey, you hate that StarCraft II was about large scale conflict, that's fine.
Or Blizzard could have easily solved the problem by not giving Kerrigan her humanity back, and then we wouldn't hold her to better moral standards than the BW queen of blades.

It's not, it's an argument that you're being completely irrational in blaming her for things you are completely fine with others doing.
Nothing you've brought is on par the same scale and culpability as Kerrigan's actions in HoTS. In HoTS she isn't following anyone's orders, and knows full well that she'll have to kill millions of people because of her actions. The only person she's fighting for is herself, and she has an option to not do so.

Furthermore, there's such a complete lack of evidence in SC1 that any culpability you're imagining can easily have multiple explanations. In SC2 we have the confirmed killings of a protoss colony, experimentation on living beings, destruction on a planetary scale, etc.

Tell me when Kerrigan killed civilians. Your entire argument is "Kerrigan used the Zerg to attack Dominion military assets. Can you prove that no civilians were harmed in those? Therefore she is a satan."

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h3XlNLQ.jpg
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Jontur_II
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mistaff_IV
Proof that civilians live in military industrial complexes in SC: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lore/short-stories/command-performance/1

I told you earlier, absence of evidence doesn't allow you to assume whatever you wish.
Translation: I can't be bothered to provide evidence to substantiate my bullshit opinion, and will continue trying to shift burden of proof to you so that I don't have to! :D

Kerrigan's swarm was nowhere near as powerful as it was during the opening stages of the war, and Mengsk still had military firepower. As such Kerrigan attacking places like the shipyard makes sense.
Kerrigan built up the swarm over 4 years on Char without attacking anybody, but now she needs ship yards and innocent civilians to eat? No, not buying it.

Kerrigan spared those prisoners because she was forced to acknowledge what she was doing. Overall yes Heart is better than Brood War in terms of Kerrigan's evolution. Fanboys kind of need to admit that Brood War wasn't really that good.
BW was pretty bad compared to Vanilla. Still better than the trainwreck that was HoTS. This is pretty much unanimously agreed upon at any Blizzard forum.

FanaticTemplar

11-24-2015, 11:27 PM

It doesn't take 3 months to destroy a planet.

Is there a point to this?

Mengsk recalled all his forces to Korhal anyway, so the idea that smashing random out-of-the-way planets would "make the defenses weaker" is nonsense.

Those were destroyed before the assault on Korhal.

Find a more accurate analogy then.

No, I'm not doing your job for you. Argue your own position.

You're telling me Kerrigan is obligated to kill millions of people because Mengsk tried to kill her. Only a psychopath would sacrifice millions of others to save themselves. I'd pick a life on the run over that any day.

Maybe those people shouldn't be fighting to eradicate the mad dictator's enemies.

Fixed.

Planets are not innocent, they're things.

Those groups were screwing over more than just one person. They were fighting for more than themselves or pretty revenge against one person. Got any more false analogies?

Mengsk and the Terran Dominion only ever screwed over one person? Is this a joke?

Since the repeated logic of Tassadar following orders to contain the infestation and save more lives won't sink in with you, maybe I can appeal to your emotions?

What would you take? A purification beam? Or being eviscerated by a zerg hydralisk's claws? I'd take the purification beam any day. Because the latter is what would happen if Tassadar did nothing. I'd much rather be a civilian on a planet that Tassadar attacked than one Kerrigan attacked.

You have no evidence that Tassadar's repeated planetary genocides saved lives. But let's toss you a bone and pretend they did. In disobeying those orders on Tarsonis, Tassadar is responsible for the creation of Infested Kerrigan, and therefore all the crimes she did, plus all the atrocities committed by the Zerg when the infestation went uncontained, and for all the Protoss who died on Aiur. So you're still going nowhere.

He can think for himself:

"You've studied their history, you know I'm right Jim"

To which he literally answers "Maybe, I don't know". Solid confirmation there.

Project Purification ring any bells?

I don't remember it being worst than what Mengsk did on Tarsonis.

Raynor didn't start the war. Kerrigan is singlehandedly responsible for doing so.

Kerrigan "singlehandedly started the war" by ordering Mengsk's Dominion forces to attack her on a Umojan planet. Of course. Your lies grow ever more desperate.

Do you get what a time lapse is? I don't want to have to insult both of our intelligences again and have to explain it a second time.

Yes. Do you understand what symbolism is? Can you provide evidence that what you claim happened is what happened?

It sounds like you haven't fact-checked shit. Gave up several cinematics in as per your own admission.

Fact checked Zergling, Baneling and Hydralisk evolution missions and the Ryloth Brood Mother conversation. I mean, it's possible that it just so happens that all the ones I verified were the ones you were inventing bullshit about, but that's not my problem. You should've stuck with things that were actually true.

So what the hell happened to the lights? "Oh shit, zerg are here, let's turn our lights off"?

How should I know? Power failure? Evacuation? Symbolism? Those things aren't city lights at all? You're the one making the assertion, you're the one who needs to support it. Once again, you're resorting to "well, since we don,t know what happened, whatever I want must be true!" And that's not how evidence works.

There are damaged apartment buildings, roads, and signs in the screenshot I keep showing you of the planet that Kerrigan is invading.

So? Cities are off-limits? Again, Raynor and Fenix attacked cities. Tassadar destroyed a bunch of them.

It's fine if you disagree with my position, but incessantly regurgitating "you have no evidence" after multiple explicit references from the game is either full-blown confirmation bias or blatant dishonesty.

"Multiple explicit references". Right. That's exactly what I'm asking for. An explicit reference in the game of Kerrigan attacking civilians. Give it to me. 'Cause there are two actual explicit scenes of Kerrigan deciding to spare civilians, and one of her sparing wounded military personnel. So I'm expecting something at least as good. So far you've given me lights getting dimmed and Zerg fighting in a city. That's not in the same league at all.

Everyone saw the planet get engulfed in creep. Sorry, didn't kill any civilians on my playthrough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Planets are not people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Both qualify as "characters in the history of StarCraft to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths."

Not in the context you're arguing they're not. But it's obvious that double standards are entirely necessary to your argument. Kerrigan is one of only two characters to have ever made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths among those she was attacking. Do the extra words help? Can you find other reasons to avoid the truth?

What did you expect some official resignation from Raynor who's in a position to do jack crap? Saying he "enjoyed a victory" is blatant dishonesty when he rebels the very next mission at a time when he gains nothing from doing so.

He rebelled because of New Gettysburg, not The Big Push. That, apparently was enough for him to leave the Sons of Korhal. But unleashing the Zerg on Tarsonis was not. What did I expect? I expected him to do what he does one mission later.

Kerrigan is delusional and holds out hope that he'll come around. Delusional =/= evil.

Unleashing the Zerg on Terran planets is not evil if you've got some sort of psychological excuse? So you'll retract everything you said about Kerrigan in Heart of the Swarm if it happens that she was not in perfect psychological condition?

Yes, her zerg. It's like walking into a police station, shooting up the place, leaving bodies everywhere, and then asking for credit because you spared two cops at the end who were too injured to ever be a threat to you. Completely idiotic.

Bullshit. The Dominion attacked her first. Those were enemy soldiers engaged in war against her Zerg. They refused to leave even though they were invading her home. And yet she spared them.

How does it go? Oh, right: "Faaaalse Anaaaloooogyyyy! :0"

Or Blizzard could have easily solved the problem by not giving Kerrigan her humanity back, and then we wouldn't hold her to better moral standards than the BW queen of blades.

I'm just expecting you to hold her to the same standards as legendary hero Tassadar or "lone good man" Jim Raynor.

Nothing you've brought is on par the same scale and culpability as Kerrigan's actions in HoTS.

So far, all you've demonstrated is that she destroyed some Dominion military resources. Everything I've brought is worse than that except the attack on Braxis, which is roughly on par except that the Protoss are not being attacked by the Dominion.

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h3XlNLQ.jpg
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Jontur_II
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mistaff_IV
Proof that civilians live in military industrial complexes in SC: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lore/short-stories/command-performance/1

So, 404, irrelevant Protoss stuff, Dominion shipyard and military production hub. What are you expecting to get by linking me those? Did you read them? The Mistaff link tells us two things about the planet before it was attacked: it is in the Koprulu Sector and it is a hub for Dominion military production. Jontur's is shorter but similar. This is exactly what I keep telling you they are.

Translation: I can't be bothered to provide evidence to substantiate my bullshit opinion, and will continue trying to shift burden of proof to you so that I don't have to! :D

Seems accurate.

Wait, wait wait. Or do you think that you can write any bullshit you like and it's true until proven otherwise? Because that's the opposite of the burden of proof. You claim that she was targeting civilians (above and beyond what other good characters have done). I disbelieve your claim. Prove it.

ragnarok

11-24-2015, 11:56 PM

That's another thing. Gradius refuses to admit that the attack on Korhal in WOL was a lightning raid. Yes they set up bases. But their objective was not to take the planet so much as to upload the information on Mengsk's war crimes and than get the hell out. They weren't doing what Kerrigan was doing in Heart (i.e try to land a large force on the planet and overwhelm the defenses the world brought to bare). Also, Kerrigan had to use her brood mothers leviathans to keep the Dominion from bringing in reinforcements during the final battle, while the swarm itself was vastly weakened after Char. Kerrigan's swarm was nowhere near as powerful as it was during the opening stages of the war, and Mengsk still had military firepower. As such Kerrigan attacking places like the shipyard makes sense.

Kerrigan spared those prisoners because she was forced to acknowledge what she was doing. Overall yes Heart is better than Brood War in terms of Kerrigan's evolution. Fanboys kind of need to admit that Brood War wasn't really that good.

And this is EXACTLY why the Industrial worlds were considered unfortunate, but necessary. Because even then, Kerrigan still felt the Dominion military was a threat. This goes back to what happened at the end of WoL, as Raynor's command allowed them to hold out for so long before the artifact was even assembled.

However as for sparing those prisoners, tell me something DarthYam: if Warfield didn't mention Raynor, you think she would have done so?

Nissa

11-25-2015, 12:26 AM

Pfft, I get accused of cowardice for not participating in text walls? Yeesh, look at this page. Well, not that it isn't a fine debate.

In any case, Gradius, I don't think there's any evidence of a UED/Morian alliance. Unless there's some alternate source (a novel?) which states this as the case, it seems out of nowhere. BW doesn't provide a shred of context for it. If you're referring to the fact that Mengsk was targeted by the UED while the Morians were left alone, there's no reason why that couldn't have been due to things like potential Dominion weakness, or they wanted Dominion tech. Or perhaps the Dominion was still the strongest of the three main K Sector governments, and that by getting the Dominion, they could make the others cow. I personally feel that it was Mengsk's arrogance and self-service that made the UED feel justified in destroying him first, given that they are a highly arrogant bunch who come into the sector and think they can solve all its problems.

Long story short, where'd you get the idea?

Also, I question your Japanese civilian metaphor. Terrans aren't Zerg civilians. In fact, it's more like a hostage situation. You've got a building full of both enemies and people who have nothing to do with the conflict in question. Is it really justified to bomb the building, without even trying to rescue the hostages?

DarthYam

11-25-2015, 12:31 AM

It doesn't take 3 months to destroy a planet. Mengsk recalled all his forces to Korhal anyway, so the idea that smashing random out-of-the-way planets would "make the defenses weaker" is nonsense.

Find a more accurate analogy then. You're telling me Kerrigan is obligated to kill millions of people because Mengsk tried to kill her. Only a psychopath would sacrifice millions of others to save themselves. I'd pick a life on the run over that any day.

Fixed.

Those groups were screwing over more than just one person. They were fighting for more than themselves or pretty revenge against one person. Got any more false analogies?

Since the repeated logic of Tassadar following orders to contain the infestation and save more lives won't sink in with you, maybe I can appeal to your emotions?

What would you take? A purification beam? Or being eviscerated by a zerg hydralisk's claws? I'd take the purification beam any day. Because the latter is what would happen if Tassadar did nothing. I'd much rather be a civilian on a planet that Tassadar attacked than one Kerrigan attacked.

He can think for himself:

"You've studied their history, you know I'm right Jim"

Project Purification ring any bells?

Raynor didn't start the war. Kerrigan is singlehandedly responsible for doing so.

Faaaalse Anaaaloooogyyyy! :0

Do you get what a time lapse is? I don't want to have to insult both of our intelligences again and have to explain it a second time.

There was also a time lapse in the baneling evolution missions showcasing lava cycles and in the roach mission as well.

It sounds like you haven't fact-checked shit. Gave up several cinematics in as per your own admission.

So what the hell happened to the lights? "Oh shit, zerg are here, let's turn our lights off"?

It's pretty damning and obvious evidence. Remind me again what evidence you have that civilians were spared in these instance? Oh right, absolutely nothing.

Play the bloody game. Kaldir itself is a confirmed colony where you kill confirmed colonists. And Kerrigan already knew in advance there'd be protoss there. There are damaged apartment buildings, roads, and signs in the screenshot I keep showing you of the planet that Kerrigan is invading. The massive hypocrisy that must go into calling me dishonest should be mind numbing.

It's fine if you disagree with my position, but incessantly regurgitating "you have no evidence" after multiple explicit references from the game is either full-blown confirmation bias or blatant dishonesty.

Everyone saw the planet get engulfed in creep. Sorry, didn't kill any civilians on my playthrough. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Both qualify as "characters in the history of StarCraft to have made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths."

What did you expect some official resignation from Raynor who's in a position to do jack crap? Saying he "enjoyed a victory" is blatant dishonesty when he rebels the very next mission at a time when he gains nothing from doing so.

Kerrigan is delusional and holds out hope that he'll come around. Delusional =/= evil.

Yes, her zerg. It's like walking into a police station, shooting up the place, leaving bodies everywhere, and then asking for credit because you spared two cops at the end who were too injured to ever be a threat to you. Completely idiotic.

Or Blizzard could have easily solved the problem by not giving Kerrigan her humanity back, and then we wouldn't hold her to better moral standards than the BW queen of blades.

Nothing you've brought is on par the same scale and culpability as Kerrigan's actions in HoTS. In HoTS she isn't following anyone's orders, and knows full well that she'll have to kill millions of people because of her actions. The only person she's fighting for is herself, and she has an option to not do so.

Furthermore, there's such a complete lack of evidence in SC1 that any culpability you're imagining can easily have multiple explanations. In SC2 we have the confirmed killings of a protoss colony, experimentation on living beings, destruction on a planetary scale, etc.

http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h3XlNLQ.jpg
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Jontur_II
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mistaff_IV
Proof that civilians live in military industrial complexes in SC: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lore/short-stories/command-performance/1

Translation: I can't be bothered to provide evidence to substantiate my bullshit opinion, and will continue trying to shift burden of proof to you so that I don't have to! :D

Kerrigan built up the swarm over 4 years on Char without attacking anybody, but now she needs ship yards and innocent civilians to eat? No, not buying it.

BW was pretty bad compared to Vanilla. Still better than the trainwreck that was HoTS. This is pretty much unanimously agreed upon at any Blizzard forum.

Appeal to popularity fallacy. Those people largely grew up with Brood War so of course they're going to be biased.

Also you ignore that in the aftermath of Char most of the Zerg swarm was wiped out since they fought each other in deep space. The brood mothers just control the few lucky enough to survive. They're nowhere near as strong as they were at the start thanks to the infighting. In that case yes Kerrigan was weaker.

Nissa, FanaticTemplar provided clear proof that Tassadar wasn't penitent and that he didn't really change a lot. That's why I called you a coward. He provided very clear points and you were like LALALALALALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!!!!!!"

Turalyon

11-25-2015, 08:12 AM

Oh what glorious walls of text!

Getting a distinct vibe with the Grad and FT headbutting that the problem is in regards to how one should treat circumstantial evidence and how far you can draw conclusions from it. All this quibbling about Kerrigan killing or not killing civilians and whether that makes her worse doesn't get around the fact that the story in HotS doesn't neatly explain why Kerrigan must attack so many alternate targets (with potentially considerable collateral damage) when her one true goal is just killing Mengsk (who is nowhere else but on Korhal the whole time) and use her true human skill (which she has now recovered along with her supposed "humanity") which is to attempt assasination instead? If we can only answer this with "well, the conceit is that this is an RTS game", that's the wrong answer since it is meaningless and has no in-universe value.

Also, the issue at hand seems to be stemming from Sc2's heavy-handed use of protagonist-centred morality. Dissonance occurs when a character is made out to be so justified and of good intent in their actions that everything they do is seemingly morally correct, no matter how potentially heinous an action may be (it's a problem of the author not being able to distance themselves from the character). It's moral blindness being presented as moral responsibility. Whether Kerrigan actually kills civilians or not specifically is irrelevent to the distinct possibility that her actions in HotS could've possibly involved many and unnecessary deaths.

Now that's an interesting set of assumptions. I've been wondering about the role of Magistrate for a while, and what it meant exactly. Mar Sara's Magistrate was sent to keep the colony pacified after the panic caused by the destruction of Chau Sara. I've always been curious as to where he was from, the role of planetary governor would imply someone influential within the Confederacy, but later missions disprove that, and Duke calls him a 'fringe world yokel' so he's apparently not some Confederate aristocrat being given his own planet.

EDIT: The point was that I can't accept your assumptions about what a Magistrate is, because I haven't really decided what a Magistrate is :p.

Does it really matter that we have to know the specific role that the title "Magistrate" entails? I wouldn't think so because in-universe, the characters would know and that's enough for the audience to make assumptions since we don't know any better. It's obvious that being a "Magistrate" has to involve some form of authority over other people or at the least, doing something with a fair number of people. You'd expect that someone who has a role involving the direction (or whatever) of people to, at the least, care for people in order to be doing that job, right? What's wrong with making that assumption? All in all, Mengsk treating the "Magistrate" the way he does could just as easily be him making assumptions on what a Magistrate would probably be like and nothing to do with reading the specific person that was the PC's Magistrate.

Raynor couldn't have had a savior-complex for Kerrigan before he lost her, since the guilt over that failure is the source of that issue.

...and Mengsk couldn't have determined that Raynor had a saviour-complex after witnessing what happened in True Colours either. Are you sure you're not just assuming too much from one quote? I know I do it all the time! Seems to me like Mengsk's "good at reading people" ability is just informed ability like his "master of propaganda" ability.

Also, I completely disagree with your interpretation of Arcturus. Leaving Kerrigan and her forces behind wasn't purely utilitarian - we've seen him fly in to evacuate Zerg-assaulted locations before in Desperate Alliance, and a strike force large enough to fight off Tassadar's Koprulu Expedition is far more valuable than some Mar Saran colonists. Nor was his speech to Raynor utilitarian either - that whole seeds/reaping metaphor is pure vacuous hogwash.

Disagree away. I'm more enamored of the idea of it being an interesting interpretation than fully believing it to be a concrete and unassailable profile of Mengsk. It's hard to know what Mengsk is actually thinking because we can only assume things based on his actions. It's difficult to know how big his forces were before recruiting Duke. Who knows, maybe Mengsk was recruiting an army by starting small and going to Confederate abandoned worlds. As to the speech about his new Empire being vacuous hogwash, yeah sure, I can accept that since the morality of utilitarianism in general gets a lot of the same type of heat anyway.

She wasn't there to help him when Tassadar and the Dark Templar came for him, was she?

That's an unreasonable question to ask. The Overmind on Aiur was only in real danger at the end of The Shadow Hunters. It was already overconfident by the end of the Overmind campaign and we are given no indication it would suddenly fear the Protoss. Based on that, we have to infer the Overmind saw no need to bring Kerrigan across. It didn't then, it didn't now. Afterall, the Protoss have been able to kill cerebrates before but it probably didn't register until this particular instance where it couldn't resurrect them. By then it was too late, the Protoss had already laid siege to the Overmind itself and was destroyed. You might as well start blaming the Overmind for not being omniscient or being the god it acts like while you're at it.

And even by that argument, Zeratul's band aren't the only Dark Templar out there.

So what, you're advocating the Overmind not do anything at all because there could be Dark Templar potentially anywhere and everywhere? That's unreasonable. You might as well say, "Don't take any risks in life at all!"

Besides, who knows what other information the Overmind was able to glean from Zeratul. It probably found out not only the location of Aiur but also that there were no Dark Templar there nor expect them to be there anytime soon. Whatever the case, Char was more dangerous due to the presence of Dark Templar in that immediate moment than it was compared to Aiur.

But regardless, the reason I keep bringing it up is because it doesn't fit. The Overmind despaired of overcoming the Protoss based on the memories of the Xel'naga because the Protoss had become a highly psionic race able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. The Xel'naga wouldn't even have known of the Dark Templar at the time. I accept the "Oh, she was hunting the Dark Templar" because it's the best explanation, not because it's a good one.

You're clinging onto the notion that the Overmind will always be in despair and that it can't change based on new information that comes to light/event that occur. For all we know, it stopped despairing when it found and successfully birthed Infested Kerrigan. It could've stopped when it found out that "regular" Protoss can't do squat against his cerebrates, only against it's lesser more numerable and easily replaceable minions. It became over-confident not only because it finally had the psionic potential in was looking for but that she was gaining some measure success over the only real immediate danger to the Zerg and that it could launch a surprise direct assault on the unsuspecting Protoss homeworld. If you don't want to buy that then maybe a slightly risk-averse reason could be that the Overmind just decided to make a tactical decision to do it the way we see in Sc1 because it didn't want an extremely dangerous loose end that could snipe them at any time whilst it was fully committed/all-in.

Anyways, even if Kerrigan did go with the Overmind to Aiur, there's no guarantee that it's ultimate fate wouldn't still be the same. Kerrigan did fail to remove the actual and eventual cause of the Overmind's death when given the chance in Sc1, afterall, why is it suddenly not a possibility if Kerrigan went with the Overmind to Aiur still? People tend to think it was an error that Overmind attacked Aiur without Kerrigan thinking that it wouldn't have died or completely defeated the Protoss if it did. That's just silly to me since that notion has to deny any agency the Protoss would have had on that outcome whatsoever.

FanaticTemplar

11-25-2015, 11:37 AM

If we can only answer this with "well, the conceit is that this is an RTS game", that's the wrong answer since it is meaningless and has no in-universe value.

Oh, that's the real reason, but I've provided the in-story reason as well. I've also provided a list of other missions that were created out of similarly flimsy pretexts.

Also, the issue at hand seems to be stemming from Sc2's heavy-handed use of protagonist-centred morality. Dissonance occurs when a character is made out to be so justified and of good intent in their actions that everything they do is seemingly morally correct, no matter how potentially heinous an action may be (it's a problem of the author not being able to distance themselves from the character). It's moral blindness being presented as moral responsibility. Whether Kerrigan actually kills civilians or not specifically is irrelevent to the distinct possibility that her actions in HotS could've possibly involved many and unnecessary deaths.

No, that's not the issue. For one thing, Kerrigan is not presented as morally correct throughout Heart of the Swarm. I can't even imagine how you would look at Lasarra wrecking Kerrigan's position and think that her defence of "Can't run, Mustn't run. Never again, never again" is the authours demonstrating her as being morally correct. Or her interactions with Warfield about how she's rendered the sacrifices of everyone who tried to save her meaningless by turning back to the Swarm? The problem is that the development was crappily executed, overreached its conclusion and didn't justify itself, not that the authours were blind to what Kerrigan was doing.

But mostly, the issue I have is that this is completely out of line with what is considered permissible for other characters. Fenix and Raynor infesting Terran miners on Moria for convenience is something that has seemed wildly out of character to me for years, and it's a far cry beyond Gradius' standard of "there might be civilians in those Dominion military facilities!" Yet there is no three page rant about how Fenix is Evil and Morally Bankrupt. Why is that?

Who is it exactly that can't distance themselves from the characters here?

Does it really matter that we have to know the specific role that the title "Magistrate" entails? I wouldn't think so because in-universe, the characters would know and that's enough for the audience to make assumptions since we don't know any better. It's obvious that being a "Magistrate" has to involve some form of authority over other people or at the least, doing something with a fair number of people. You'd expect that someone who has a role involving the direction (or whatever) of people to, at the least, care for people in order to be doing that job, right? What's wrong with making that assumption?

Well, he's a Confederate official come to pacify Confederate assets. It would seem much more reasonable to me to assume that he's there to make sure the panic doesn't cause the Confederacy trouble.

...and Mengsk couldn't have determined that Raynor had a saviour-complex after witnessing what happened in True Colours either. Are you sure you're not just assuming too much from one quote? I know I do it all the time! Seems to me like Mengsk's "good at reading people" ability is just informed ability like his "master of propaganda" ability.

No, as I've pointed out this is completely consistent with what has been repeated throughout the main storyline of Wings of Liberty, including by Raynor himself.

Disagree away. I'm more enamored of the idea of it being an interesting interpretation than fully believing it to be a concrete and unassailable profile of Mengsk. It's hard to know what Mengsk is actually thinking because we can only assume things based on his actions. It's difficult to know how big his forces were before recruiting Duke. Who knows, maybe Mengsk was recruiting an army by starting small and going to Confederate abandoned worlds. As to the speech about his new Empire being vacuous hogwash, yeah sure, I can accept that since the morality of utilitarianism in general gets a lot of the same type of heat anyway.

I'm not talking about morality. "The seeds of a new empire have been sown, and if we hope to reap..." is just using flowery language to say "keep working".

That's an unreasonable question to ask. The Overmind on Aiur was only in real danger at the end of The Shadow Hunters. It was already overconfident by the end of the Overmind campaign and we are given no indication it would suddenly fear the Protoss. Based on that, we have to infer the Overmind saw no need to bring Kerrigan across. It didn't then, it didn't now. Afterall, the Protoss have been able to kill cerebrates before but it probably didn't register until this particular instance where it couldn't resurrect them. By then it was too late, the Protoss had already laid siege to the Overmind itself and was destroyed. You might as well start blaming the Overmind for not being omniscient or being the god it acts like while you're at it.

Expecting it to bring its ultimate weapon with it on its most important operation is expecting it to be omniscient or like a god? I'd say it's an entirely reasonable expectation. After it succeeds in assimilating the Protoss, it believes the Swarm will be perfect. This is the most crucial moment in the Zerg's history, and it's just not using it's most valuable tool?

So what, you're advocating the Overmind not do anything at all because there could be Dark Templar potentially anywhere and everywhere? That's unreasonable. You might as well say, "Don't take any risks in life at all!"

You argued that leaving Kerrigan behind was reasonable because it neutralised the Dark Templar. I'm pointing out that it didn't. I'm advocating that the Overmind bring Kerrigan with him.

You're clinging onto the notion that the Overmind will always be in despair and that it can't change based on new information that comes to light/event that occur. For all we know, it stopped despairing when it found and successfully birthed Infested Kerrigan. It could've stopped when it found out that "regular" Protoss can't do squat against his cerebrates, only against it's lesser more numerable and easily replaceable minions. It became over-confident not only because it finally had the psionic potential in was looking for but that she was gaining some measure success over the only real immediate danger to the Zerg and that it could launch a surprise direct assault on the unsuspecting Protoss homeworld. If you don't want to buy that then maybe a slightly risk-averse reason could be that the Overmind just decided to make a tactical decision to do it the way we see in Sc1 because it didn't want an extremely dangerous loose end that could snipe them at any time whilst it was fully committed/all-in.

Then put it in the story. Look at all the assumptions and intuitive inductions you expect me to make here, and meanwhile you have difficulty accepting that Mengsk was correct about Raynor blaming himself for everything Kerrigan's done, despite it being explicitly stated in the game multiple times. If this had happened in StarCraft II instead of the original game, you'd be up in arms about it. This was the entire justification for the Overmind's invasion of Terran space, and it never gets mentioned?

Anyways, even if Kerrigan did go with the Overmind to Aiur, there's no guarantee that it's ultimate fate wouldn't still be the same. Kerrigan did fail to remove the actual and eventual cause of the Overmind's death when given the chance in Sc1, afterall, why is it suddenly not a possibility if Kerrigan went with the Overmind to Aiur still? People tend to think it was an error that Overmind attacked Aiur without Kerrigan thinking that it wouldn't have died or completely defeated the Protoss if it did. That's just silly to me since that notion has to deny any agency the Protoss would have had on that outcome whatsoever.

I don't think that it would have saved him. I just want the story to be coherent.

KaiserStratosTygo

11-25-2015, 01:00 PM

"Oh, that's the real reason, but I've provided the in-story reason as well. I've also provided a list of other missions that were created out of similarly flimsy pretexts."

More like excuses and fanon as opposed to actual reasons.

"No, that's not the issue. For one thing, Kerrigan is not presented as morally correct throughout Heart of the Swarm. I can't even imagine how you would look at Lasarra wrecking Kerrigan's position and think that her defence of "Can't run, Mustn't run. Never again, never again" is the authours demonstrating her as being morally correct. Or her interactions with Warfield about how she's rendered the sacrifices of everyone who tried to save her meaningless by turning back to the Swarm? The problem is that the development was crappily executed, overreached its conclusion and didn't justify itself, not that the authours were blind to what Kerrigan was doing."

She's presented as "different" and more "human" which is still a load of bull, I gess she's "different" in that she's now a real mass murderer like daddy Mengsk.

The writers had Kerrigan try to use the "you've killed billion of zerg" remark (ignoring the fact that Protoss are indeed not a singular hive mind) to try to levy some equal guilt, which was hilarious and stupid, yet such a thing was called out by no-one and thus is portrayed straight, which is absurd.

Your fanon excuses have no backing.

"But mostly, the issue I have is that this is completely out of line with what is considered permissible for other characters. Fenix and Raynor infesting Terran miners on Moria for convenience is something that has seemed wildly out of character to me for years, and it's a far cry beyond Gradius' standard of "there might be civilians in those Dominion military facilities!" Yet there is no three page rant about how Fenix is Evil and Morally Bankrupt. Why is that?"

How is Fenix evil and morally bankrupt because he had no choice but assist Kerrigan to defeat people who sought to enslave them all? he wasn't in charge of this action and really had little to do with that part of it, that was Kerrigan and the Cerebrate's objective, the worst Fenix did was steal from the KMC.

Stop trying to equate these things you dishonest, liar.

"Who is it exactly that can't distance themselves from the characters here?"

You.

"Expecting it to bring its ultimate weapon with it on its most important operation is expecting it to be omniscient or like a god? I'd say it's an entirely reasonable expectation. After it succeeds in assimilating the Protoss, it believes the Swarm will be perfect. This is the most crucial moment in the Zerg's history, and it's just not using it's most valuable tool?"

Yes, let's leave these Dark Templar completely free on Char so that they can surprise attack us later (which still happened, but only through incredibly unlikely circumstance)

You don't put all of your eggs into one basket and leave yourself open to the only foe that could ever hope to challenge you.

"You argued that leaving Kerrigan behind was reasonable because it neutralised the Dark Templar. I'm pointing out that it didn't. I'm advocating that the Overmind bring Kerrigan with him."

Which is silly, because up until said unlikely circumstance there were NO dark templar on Aiur, which became apparent when Fenix hilariously failed to kill the Baelrog Cerebrate.

"Then put it in the story. Look at all the assumptions and intuitive inductions you expect me to make here,"

This is hypocritical, you expect us to take your fanon seriously (especially regarding Kerrigan somehow not being responsible for anything ever) but when Turalyon comes to a reasonable conclusion about the Overmind (which can be argued through the beast's mannerisms and actions) you try to argue against it.

be consistent.

" I just want the story to be coherent."

Is that right?

ragnarok

11-25-2015, 03:42 PM

"No, that's not the issue. For one thing, Kerrigan is not presented as morally correct throughout Heart of the Swarm. I can't even imagine how you would look at Lasarra wrecking Kerrigan's position and think that her defence of "Can't run, Mustn't run. Never again, never again" is the authours demonstrating her as being morally correct. Or her interactions with Warfield about how she's rendered the sacrifices of everyone who tried to save her meaningless by turning back to the Swarm? The problem is that the development was crappily executed, overreached its conclusion and didn't justify itself, not that the authours were blind to what Kerrigan was doing."

She's presented as "different" and more "human" which is still a load of bull, I gess she's "different" in that she's now a real mass murderer like daddy Mengsk.

The writers had Kerrigan try to use the "you've killed billion of zerg" remark (ignoring the fact that Protoss are indeed not a singular hive mind) to try to levy some equal guilt, which was hilarious and stupid, yet such a thing was called out by no-one and thus is portrayed straight, which is absurd.

Your fanon excuses have no backing.

Stratos, this is not the same kind of killing as Mengsk. Kerrigan's ORIGINAL goal with the swarm is merely to kill Mengsk, then walk away from the Zerg completely. She's not in it for personal gain. Yes we all know from the outside POV, this is virtually impossible to see the difference, but it proves she's not hellbent for conquest anymore. This was proven in the prologue, otherwise Kerrigan would have simply struck at Zeratul's base at that Moebius facility. Her rampaging days are done.

The killing billions of Zerg is hypocritical, but it's merely to show that the Protoss are far from being pure and innocent.

Stratos, you told me whiles back you studied military history before you were even in your teens. You know as well as I that in war, EVERYONE sins. You can't just say just because you won the war, therefore you never committed any crimes. Granted this may take a while before those crimes are finally discovered, but you can't hide it forever.

This goes back to what we discussed on the battlenet forums about allied war crimes.

Returning to HotS, and back to the hypocritical comment, what Kerrigan SHOULD have said was that the Protoss killing ONLY the Zerg was fine for their survival, but they killed plenty of other species on the planets that never wronged them.

Gradius

11-25-2015, 05:48 PM

In any case, Gradius, I don't think there's any evidence of a UED/Morian alliance. Unless there's some alternate source (a novel?) which states this as the case, it seems out of nowhere. BW doesn't provide a shred of context for it. If you're referring to the fact that Mengsk was targeted by the UED while the Morians were left alone, there's no reason why that couldn't have been due to things like potential Dominion weakness, or they wanted Dominion tech. Or perhaps the Dominion was still the strongest of the three main K Sector governments, and that by getting the Dominion, they could make the others cow. I personally feel that it was Mengsk's arrogance and self-service that made the UED feel justified in destroying him first, given that they are a highly arrogant bunch who come into the sector and think they can solve all its problems.

Long story short, where'd you get the idea?

Also, I question your Japanese civilian metaphor. Terrans aren't Zerg civilians. In fact, it's more like a hostage situation. You've got a building full of both enemies and people who have nothing to do with the conflict in question. Is it really justified to bomb the building, without even trying to rescue the hostages?
There's no formal alliance, no, but the UED is allowing them to operate whilst cracking down on the Dominion, and the Morians aren't working with Raynor/Fenix to help overthrow the UED.

Sure, anytime innocent civilians die it's a tragedy. But it was easier for us to bomb Japanese cities and kill potential innocent civilians than send in soldiers to storm the cities and risk U.S. lives. The protoss have the same exact mentality during war, which a hostage negotiation metaphor doesn't quite cover.

Japanese civilians didn't ask to be born in Japan. Likewise, nobody asked to live on a planet that the zerg infested. Their mere location condemns them to death. War is hell.

Appeal to popularity fallacy. Those people largely grew up with Brood War so of course they're going to be biased.
The only biased one here is you. The fanboy goggles need to come off. Go to the Mass Recall teamliquid thread. Plenty of people who played SC2 first and enjoyed SC1 more.

You obviously have no clue what nostalgia even is. There are plenty of things from my childhood that sucked, and even if I have fond memories of, say, Dragonball Z, I'm not gonna go around defending its writing.

Also you ignore that in the aftermath of Char most of the Zerg swarm was wiped out since they fought each other in deep space. The brood mothers just control the few lucky enough to survive. They're nowhere near as strong as they were at the start thanks to the infighting. In that case yes Kerrigan was weaker.
Doesn't address the core point that destroying random shipyards & murdering innocent people is not a requirement for building up the swarm. You can build up the swarm on uninhabited planets and still sack Korhal. Even though what you should be doing is assassination since your beef is with one guy.

Is there a point to this?

Those were destroyed before the assault on Korhal.
How can you not get it? Really? It's a single battle. Standing forces are all that matter in a battle that takes several hours tops. Industrial planets working on churning out Vikings are irrelevant.

Dismantling the entire Dominion war machine is completely pointless when you're trying to kill one guy.

No, I'm not doing your job for you. Argue your own position.
Then answer the frigging question. Would you kill millions of people like Kerrigan did just to save yourself?

Maybe those people shouldn't be fighting to eradicate the mad dictator's enemies.
And there it is, you think those people deserved to die.

How is he mad from the viewpoint of the average civilian? He seems to be doing a fine job running the empire and the media makes sure his image is top notch.

Planets are not innocent, they're things.
People live on planets. Nice blatant dodge.

Mengsk and the Terran Dominion only ever screwed over one person? Is this a joke?
The only thing that's a joke is your understanding of the HoTS campaign where Kerrigan makes it clear multiple times that she's only doing this for revenge. Obviously, she couldn't give two shits about the common man given that she sacks entire planets and has to be convinced into sparing civilians vs. the lives of her bloodthirsty bug monsters.

Also, while Mengsk committed heinous acts of genocide to get into power, WoL has given us only token evidence that he's doing a bad job apart from that. The Dominion's unexplained recovery after the BW would indicate that he's actually the best man for the job.

You have no evidence that Tassadar's repeated planetary genocides saved lives. But let's toss you a bone and pretend they did.
You're the one accusing him of being evil, so the burden of proof is on you.

In disobeying those orders on Tarsonis, Tassadar is responsible for the creation of Infested Kerrigan, and therefore all the crimes she did, plus all the atrocities committed by the Zerg when the infestation went uncontained, and for all the Protoss who died on Aiur. So you're still going nowhere.
I'm not obligated to defend Tassadar. On the flip side if you think destroying all the zerg infested planets was evil, you have to admit that he changed for the better by sparing Tarsonis, so right back atcha.

It's hilarious how you came into this debate assuming I give two shits about false analogies or am obligated to defend the entire SC cast. Accuse whoever you want of whatever you want. I'm not getting sidetracked by your pitiful attempts to shift the blame away from Kerrigan.

To which he literally answers "Maybe, I don't know". Solid confirmation there.

I don't remember it being worst than what Mengsk did on Tarsonis.
What the hell does that have to do with Mengsk? Everyone who played SC1 agrees Mengsk is evil. We're discussing why Raynor/Fenix are fighting the UED, a faction that's been known to instigate genocidal purges. Next time you try switching goalposts be less obvious about it.

Kerrigan "singlehandedly started the war" by ordering Mengsk's Dominion forces to attack her on a Umojan planet. Of course. Your lies grow ever more desperate.
War: a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict

Didn't know one person getting attacked is a "war", but I guess I learn something new every day!

Another fun fact: Kerrigan in the previous game launched an unprovoked invasion of his planets. Who's desperate again?

Yes. Do you understand what symbolism is?
It's a god damn time lapse, just like we see in other parts of the game.

Even if I allow you to cherry pick whatever scenes you want as "symbolic", what exactly is the symbolism behind an entire full of city lights being engulfed in creep by a bloodthirsty brood mother? That all the people on the planet died? Where was the symbolism of the civilian transports evacuating the planet?

Can you provide evidence that what you claim happened is what happened?
Translation: Please prove that the cinematic we watched in the game is what happened.

Can we agree that you're delusional yet? -_-

Fact checked Zergling, Baneling and Hydralisk evolution missions and the Ryloth Brood Mother conversation. I mean, it's possible that it just so happens that all the ones I verified were the ones you were inventing bullshit about, but that's not my problem. You should've stuck with things that were actually true.
At no point did I mention anything in my summary that wasn't true.

How should I know?
Use five brain cells?

Power failure?
Yep, the planet is getting sacked by zerg, and the lights happen to go out because we forgot to pay the electric bill. :rolleyes:

How nice of the zerg to leave everything in tact while only knocking out the electricity pylons!

Evacuation?
Doesn't work the way you seem to think it does. Mar Sara SC1, Raynor had to rescue civilians from the zerg twice because they destroy shit way too fast. Agria, civilians didn't get out in time, Raiders had to help them. Kaldir, the most advanced race in the galaxy failed to get any people off planet. Korhal, they wouldn't have made it if Kerrigan was allowed to use her normal plan. Even with all the time Kerrigan gives them, they're still "behind" with the evacuations.

Symbolism?
Time lapse.

Those things aren't city lights at all?
Not city lights? So what the fuck are they? -_-

You're the one making the assertion, you're the one who needs to support it. Once again, you're resorting to "well, since we don,t know what happened, whatever I want must be true!" And that's not how evidence works.
You don't have a shred of a hint about how proper evidence works given that you haven't provided jack shit that refuted my battle.net post. You're very good at dismissing everything that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions of the game though, I'll give you that.

So? Cities are off-limits? Again, Raynor and Fenix attacked cities. Tassadar destroyed a bunch of them.
I guess those guys are evil assholes then. Along with General MacArthur in WW2. Except Tassadar is good because he came to his senses and stopped doing that on Tarsonis. Or was that the wrong decision too because according to you, "Tassadar is responsible for the creation of Infested Kerrigan, and therefore all the crimes she did, plus all the atrocities committed by the Zerg when the infestation went uncontained"

Pick one. How astounding is the massive hypocrisy and flip-flopping of Tassadar haters.

"Multiple explicit references". Right. That's exactly what I'm asking for. An explicit reference in the game of Kerrigan attacking civilians. Give it to me. 'Cause there are two actual explicit scenes of Kerrigan deciding to spare civilians, and one of her sparing wounded military personnel. So I'm expecting something at least as good. So far you've given me lights getting dimmed and Zerg fighting in a city. That's not in the same league at all.
http://imageshack.us/a/img594/3796/cruxas3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/h3XlNLQ.jpg
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Jontur_II
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mistaff_IV
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Kaldir
Proof that civilians live in military industrial complexes in SC: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/game/lore/short-stories/command-performance/1

Kerrigan was never going to spare civilians on Korhal and had to be talked into it. That's part of the game, sorry. Kerrigan butchered the soldiers on Char. If that's what you call being "saved" then I love how pathetically low your standards of evidence are. Except for all the links above that you will readily ignore.

Planets are not people. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Cowardly dodge! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Not in the context you're arguing they're not. But it's obvious that double standards are entirely necessary to your argument. Kerrigan is one of only two characters to have ever made a deliberate effort to avoid civilian deaths among those she was attacking. Do the extra words help? Can you find other reasons to avoid the truth?
The only reason that distinction is even a topic is because SC2 has the luxury of explaining what happened to the civilians on the planets being attacked, due to extra cinematics, dialog, art, etc, whereas SC1 does not. This isn't actually an advantage for you because you're frantically scrambling for nonexistant evidence that any of the "good guys" did anything truly wrong in SC1. It's also very unfortunate for your position that Kerrigan in SC2 is shown slaughtering an innocent protoss colony, ordering the destruction of multiple worlds which we get to see ruined apartment buildings & road systems ravaged by the zerg invasion, etc.

He rebelled because of New Gettysburg, not The Big Push. That, apparently was enough for him to leave the Sons of Korhal. But unleashing the Zerg on Tarsonis was not. What did I expect? I expected him to do what he does one mission later.
Ok. Fine. Raynor condoned the planetary genocide of Tarsonis. He was super stoked about it. For example:

Jim Raynor
First you sell out every person on this world to the Zerg, then you ask us to go up against the Protoss? And you're goin' to send Kerrigan down there with no backup?

Arcturus Mengsk
I have absolute confidence in Kerrigan's ability to hold off the Protoss.

Jim Raynor
This is bullshit. Kerrigan, are you reading this?
Sorry, I forgot mustering up actual evidence seems to sting you like water on a witch, but if Kerrigan argued half as much on behalf of the Korhal population, Valerian wouldn't have had to even ask her about it.

Raynor - taking orders from Mengsk. Fought an entire campaign and wants to believe that he accomplished something of value by propping up a better government. Waits one mission before living a life on the run.
Kerrigan - takes orders from nobody. Decides to get revenge against Mengsk from the get-go and goes about it in the most ruthless way possible with as many collateral deaths as possible. Doesn't consider assassination, or living a life on the run at all.

So sure, even if I grant you that Raynor was an evil asshole for one mission, that changes absolutely nothing.

Unleashing the Zerg on Terran planets is not evil if you've got some sort of psychological excuse? So you'll retract everything you said about Kerrigan in [B]Heart of the Swarm if it happens that she was not in perfect psychological condition?
Sure, just admit that Kerrigan is a mass-murdering psychopath and we'll be two peas in a pod.

Bullshit. The Dominion attacked her first. Those were enemy soldiers engaged in war against her Zerg. They refused to leave even though they were invading her home. And yet she spared them.
They attacked her because she had slaughtered billions of terrans in the last game, and that's all the zerg had ever done. Char was originally a terran colony btw; it is not her "home".

Pretty damn accurate analogy. It's like if some cops tried to bring you to justice and then you raided their police station in retribution.

I'm just expecting you to hold her to the same standards as legendary hero Tassadar or "lone good man" Jim Raynor.
....or I can keep smashing every false analogy you send my way.

Again, I'm not obligated to defend the SC cast, but even so you can run this through your head before you bring up any more irrelevant characters in a futile attempt to defend Kerrigan's mass murder in HoTS:

Not. The. Same. Fucking. Thing.

So far, all you've demonstrated is that she destroyed some Dominion military resources. Everything I've brought is worse than that except the attack on Braxis, which is roughly on par except that the Protoss are not being attacked by the Dominion.

So, 404, irrelevant Protoss stuff, Dominion shipyard and military production hub. What are you expecting to get by linking me those? Did you read them? The Mistaff link tells us two things about the planet before it was attacked: it is in the Koprulu Sector and it is a hub for Dominion military production. Jontur's is shorter but similar. This is exactly what I keep telling you they are.

A hub for military production is an industrial complex. Industrial complexes are jam packed with civilians.

Let me know if there's any more difficult concepts I can help with.

Wait, wait wait. Or do you think that you can write any bullshit you like and it's true until proven otherwise? Because that's the opposite of the burden of proof. You claim that she was targeting civilians (above and beyond what other good characters have done). I disbelieve your claim. Prove it.
She's not targeting civilians, but they're going to die anyway when a full-blown zerg invasion comes to your planet. I once assumed that was common sense.

FanaticTemplar

11-25-2015, 08:55 PM

Sure, just admit that Kerrigan is a mass-murdering psychopath and we'll be two peas in a pod.

Done.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean that I believe and state that Kerrigan is a mass-murdering psychopath.

DarthYam

11-25-2015, 09:32 PM

ragnarok

11-25-2015, 10:01 PM

Except that even when the Dark Templar LEFT Char Kerrigan stayed behind. If the Overmind was aware they weren't on Char anymore than he was fucking stupid leaving Kerrigan behind and not having her get to Aiur.

Also, Kerrigan attacking military shipyards to weaken Mengsk does make sense if she's in a weakened state. Same thing with the swarm. Mengsk is hiding behind the Dominion military and it might take a while to build up forces when Mengsk recovered.

Actually DarthYam, the reason behind the whole "building up forces" is exactly one of the points why the critics felt the industrial worlds weren't needed (though I don't agree).

I do see grounds for that their thinking though:

If you had read the Flashpoint book, almost the whole Dominion invasion force had been left in ruins at Char when WoL ended. That was half of the ENTIRE Dominion fleet, which was in shambles when Mengsk arrived with the other half of the Dominion fleet (at the beginning of the book). They too took serious losses at Char. Along with the losses they sustained over the course of the book, well let's just say by the end of Flashpoint, the Dominion fleet was VERY badly mauled.

Yet from what we saw in HotS, it seemed that within like 2 weeks after Flashpoint ended, the beginning of HotS showed Mengsk had rebuilt the whole fleet right away. This shouldn't be possible on a terran scale, though Blizzard never really explained how much industrial capacity the Dominion had at the beginning of WoL.

I didn't see it that way though. As explained by Lockwell at the beginning of WoL, Mengsk left the fleet to decay all those years for the sake to hunt down Raynor. This could mean if Mengsk actually HAD dead set on building up the fleet to fight swarm, the Dominion fleet could have been rebuilt quickly. Therefore, what you said makes sense why the industrial worlds had to be razed.

Turalyon

11-26-2015, 08:11 AM

Oh, that's the real reason, but I've provided the in-story reason as well. I've also provided a list of other missions that were created out of similarly flimsy pretexts.

I know that the reason boils down to "the author intended it that way" and that you can really boil the reason for all action featured in a fictional story/game down to it being a flimsy pretext. The point I was making that if a character's motivation isn't given the proper illusion that this was their only reasoned choice, then an audience can only surmise that it must be contrived. Obviously, this is bad if you're trying to build the investment of an audience member into its story and characters.

Oh and I must have missed the in-story reason you gave. Hard to find with all the massive posts and all...

No, that's not the issue. For one thing, Kerrigan is not presented as morally correct throughout Heart of the Swarm.

And yet some people (not you, me or any other reasonable person though) will continue to uphold Kerrigan's actions in HoTS as being morally justified.

The problem is that the development was crappily executed, overreached its conclusion and didn't justify itself, not that the authours were blind to what Kerrigan was doing.

The crappy execution, overreaching conclusions, lack of adequate justification and mixed messages would seem to indicate that the authors are blind to what they wanted to do with Kerrigan.

But mostly, the issue I have is that this is completely out of line with what is considered permissible for other characters. Fenix and Raynor infesting Terran miners on Moria for convenience is something that has seemed wildly out of character to me for years, and it's a far cry beyond Gradius' standard of "there might be civilians in those Dominion military facilities!" Yet there is no three page rant about how Fenix is Evil and Morally Bankrupt. Why is that?

Good point. I've never thought of Raynor as a morally good guy beyond reproach anyway given he esssentially condones Mengsk's multiple atrocities with the Psi Emitters by remaining to side with him up until the end of Rebel Yell. As to Fenix being evil, sure, why not? I wouldn't harp on it that much though since he's a minor character and all. I kinda like the fact that there's no such thing as a completely morally good guy in Sc.

Either way, Grad does have a point in that he's only talking specifically about Kerrigan. Sure, it's potentially hypocritical to not consider that the same can be said for other characters in Sc but it's beside the point he's making. It's a important distinction to make for sure, but in this particular case, it's a strawman arguement.

Well, he's a Confederate official come to pacify Confederate assets. It would seem much more reasonable to me to assume that he's there to make sure the panic doesn't cause the Confederacy trouble.

The prologue kinda hints at what role a magistrate plays: "Acting as Magistrate, you are to safeguard the colonists and keep their panic from escalating any further". Says nothing about how they're supposed to make life easier for Confederates, so I don't know where you drew that inference from. Sure, I'm assuming things too but mine doesn't need to stretch as much.

No, as I've pointed out this is completely consistent with what has been repeated throughout the main storyline of Wings of Liberty, including by Raynor himself.

What's consistent? That Mengsk is really good at reading people or that he's a master propagandist? I'm not convinced of either based on WoL alone.

"The seeds of a new empire have been sown, and if we hope to reap..." is just using flowery language to say "keep working".

I know and I agree that it's rhetoric, but if one is inclined to take an alternate perspective that Mengsk is utilitarian, that quote doesn't completely nullify that notion.

Expecting it to bring its ultimate weapon with it on its most important operation is expecting it to be omniscient or like a god?

No, expecting that the Overmind would've completely won had it brought Kerrigan to Aiur and that it being stupid because it didn't is akin to expecting the Overmind to being omniscient or being an actual god.

This is the most crucial moment in the Zerg's history, and it's just not using it's most valuable tool?

It was using it's most valuable tool, you're just not understanding how or refusing to accept it because you have an idealised vision of what you think the Overmind should've done.

You argued that leaving Kerrigan behind was reasonable because it neutralised the Dark Templar. I'm pointing out that it didn't. I'm advocating that the Overmind bring Kerrigan with him.

You haven't really pointed out it why it was not reasonable to neutralise Dark Templar.

Then put it in the story. Look at all the assumptions and intuitive inductions you expect me to make here

I hope you're not admitting that you need to be spoonfed every single detail and that audience members should never intuit some things for themselves. I'm not asking you to make any of these assumptions, just showing how it's so easy to think of an out. I can think of more offhandedly but that's not the point.

meanwhile you have difficulty accepting that Mengsk was correct about Raynor blaming himself for everything Kerrigan's done, despite it being explicitly stated in the game multiple times.

I never denied this. I just denied that Mengsk was always good at reading people.

If this had happened in StarCraft II instead of the original game, you'd be up in arms about it. This was the entire justification for the Overmind's invasion of Terran space, and it never gets mentioned?

What do you mean it's not mentioned? There's an explanation after Eye for an Eye in which it says Kerrigan was "left behind to hunt down and eradicate the remaining Protoss warriors". I don't know why you'd think Kerrigan wasn't doing anything to help nor why you think she not fulfilling her role as a valuable tool. There's nothing that explicitly says the Overmind must bring Kerrigan in it's invasion of Aiur.

I just want the story to be coherent.

It is. Whether you like it or not, the fact remains that the Overmind is using Kerrigan. It's not my fault that what the Overmind did regarding Kerrigan doesn't meet your expectation.

FanaticTemplar

11-26-2015, 10:57 AM

I know that the reason boils down to "the author intended it that way" and that you can really boil the reason for all action featured in a fictional story/game down to it being a flimsy pretext. The point I was making that if a character's motivation isn't given the proper illusion that this was their only reasoned choice, then an audience can only surmise that it must be contrived. Obviously, this is bad if you're trying to build the investment of an audience member into its story and characters.

I mean, I want to say that's true, but fans are clearly willing to go a certain distance to justify the actions of their characters. If you'll allow me to combine some of your post in the same reply, in the Overmind bit we're discussing lower down the explanation makes sense, but it's entirely fan-made. The story didn't give the proper illusion that it was the only reasoned choice, but we're still willing to find an explanation for it.

Oh and I must have missed the in-story reason you gave. Hard to find with all the massive posts and all...

No problem. Basically, when Mengsk attacked the Umojan labs to get Kerrigan, Mengsk was in control of the full military might of an interstellar empire (Except for all the fleets he gave to Moebis Corps apparently, but that's not part of Heart of the Swarm, so I hope you'll do me the favour of ignoring that silliness when considering the narrative of the game) and Kerrigan had nothing. Throughout the game, Kerrigan is preparing for the final confrontation by in one part making herself stronger (Gathering the Zerg from Char and Kaldir, getting reinfested on Zerus) and making her enemy weaker (destroying his military production in the evolution missions and cutscenes, destroying his Hybrid on Skygeirr). If those troops had not been destroyed previously, she would have had to fight them on Korhal anyway, and whatever further aseets they managed to produce.

The crappy execution, overreaching conclusions, lack of adequate justification and mixed messages would seem to indicate that the authors are blind to what they wanted to do with Kerrigan.

I think they were just afraid that portraying it adequately would make it difficult for the audience to sympathise with her, so they still half-arsed. It's similar to how they shoehorned the Prophecy arc into Wings of Liberty because they didn't trust the audience to understand Raynor's journey. And instead, it just helps those people, since now they think he only did it because a prophecy told him to. But ultimately, why the writers messed up isn't that important. The end result is still garbage.

Good point. I've never thought of Raynor as a morally good guy beyond reproach anyway given he esssentially condones Mengsk's multiple atrocities with the Psi Emitters by remaining to side with him up until the end of Rebel Yell. As to Fenix being evil, sure, why not? I wouldn't harp on it that much though since he's a minor character and all. I kinda like the fact that there's no such thing as a completely morally good guy in Sc.

Either way, Grad does have a point in that he's only talking specifically about Kerrigan. Sure, it's potentially hypocritical to not consider that the same can be said for other characters in Sc but it's beside the point he's making. It's a important distinction to make for sure, but in this particular case, it's a strawman arguement.

Not at all. His argument was that Kerrigan is evil and morally bankrupt. Since philosophers have been debating on morality for ages, establishing his standard for it through other examples is completely valid.

The prologue kinda hints at what role a magistrate plays: "Acting as Magistrate, you are to safeguard the colonists and keep their panic from escalating any further". Says nothing about how they're supposed to make life easier for Confederates, so I don't know where you drew that inference from. Sure, I'm assuming things too but mine doesn't need to stretch as much.

I'm not assuming that the notion I suggested is correct. I'm just giving an example of something else it could be. I mean, if police or even military (and apparently the Magistrate has military authority?) were sent to prevent a riot from escalating further, you wouldn't necessarily believe that their first concern is the welfare of the rioters. Like I said, I've been wondering about the Magistrate. This guy gets an entire Confederate planet, and apparently still has pretty much no influence with the Confederacy?

What's consistent? That Mengsk is really good at reading people or that he's a master propagandist? I'm not convinced of either based on WoL alone.

I never denied this. I just denied that Mengsk was always good at reading people.

My mistake, I misunderstood your position.

I know and I agree that it's rhetoric, but if one is inclined to take an alternate perspective that Mengsk is utilitarian, that quote doesn't completely nullify that notion.

No, and I don't think I've got anything to argue against that beyond throwing away the anti-Protoss strike force. Even if I could, who am I to deny someone their alternative perspective on the games? I'm making my own headcanon sequel to StarCraft :p.

No, expecting that the Overmind would've completely won had it brought Kerrigan to Aiur and that it being stupid because it didn't is akin to expecting the Overmind to being omniscient or being an actual god.

It was using it's most valuable tool, you're just not understanding how or refusing to accept it because you have an idealised vision of what you think the Overmind should've done.

You haven't really pointed out it why it was not reasonable to neutralise Dark Templar.

What do you mean it's not mentioned? There's an explanation after Eye for an Eye in which it says Kerrigan was "left behind to hunt down and eradicate the remaining Protoss warriors". I don't know why you'd think Kerrigan wasn't doing anything to help nor why you think she not fulfilling her role as a valuable tool. There's nothing that explicitly says the Overmind must bring Kerrigan in it's invasion of Aiur.

Now you're the one misunderstanding my position. I never said Kerrigan wasn't doing anything, and I never said that the Overmind would have won if it took her with it. And while I did point out that there were other Dark Templar so leaving her on Char hardly neutralised them, that's still not the point. My point was that the Overmind went to the Terran worlds out of a desperate need for something that would counter the Protoss' psionics and ability to bend space and warp reality. The Aiur Protoss still have this, Dark Templar entirely inconsequential. Kerrigan was supposed to be the solution, but isn't used. And yet this is never brought up in any way.

KaiserStratosTygo

11-26-2015, 01:58 PM

ragnarok

11-26-2015, 03:35 PM

Trying to fight a war of attrition against Terrans as Zerg is by far the least logical strategy, you will ALWAYS overpower them with numbers, all she has to do is built up her forces on Phaeton and strike when ready, Mengsk isn't going anywhere.

Stratos, you knew all along Kerrigan suspected Mengsk would have tricks up his sleeve. The Psi Destroyer was proof of just that. She expected Mengsk to know he can't be dumb enough to think the Dominion could beat the Zerg in a battle of numbers, so he has to have some unconventional weaponry out there. This is another reason to raid the industrial worlds, in the event of just that.

Again, this all goes back to a simple concept of war: you're not supposed to underestimate your enemy

Turalyon

11-27-2015, 08:37 AM

I mean, I want to say that's true, but fans are clearly willing to go a certain distance to justify the actions of their characters. If you'll allow me to combine some of your post in the same reply, in the Overmind bit we're discussing lower down the explanation makes sense, but it's entirely fan-made. The story didn't give the proper illusion that it was the only reasoned choice, but we're still willing to find an explanation for it.

I don't need to justify or fanon a reason for the Overmind's actions. It's plain to see that it did what it did because it was over-confident and not despairing anymore.

No problem. Basically, when Mengsk attacked the Umojan labs to get Kerrigan, Mengsk was in control of the full military might of an interstellar empire (Except for all the fleets he gave to Moebis Corps apparently, but that's not part of Heart of the Swarm, so I hope you'll do me the favour of ignoring that silliness when considering the narrative of the game) and Kerrigan had nothing. Throughout the game, Kerrigan is preparing for the final confrontation by in one part making herself stronger (Gathering the Zerg from Char and Kaldir, getting reinfested on Zerus) and making her enemy weaker (destroying his military production in the evolution missions and cutscenes, destroying his Hybrid on Skygeirr). If those troops had not been destroyed previously, she would have had to fight them on Korhal anyway, and whatever further aseets they managed to produce.

That's a summary for HotS not a reason why Kerrigan is compelled to kill so many other people/aliens when all she wants to do is kill one man only. Because she's a human now, it's not unreasonable to think she would consider relying on her natural skills as a superlative assassin to pursue Mengsk rather before going back to the Zerg (which she seems to actually dislike and show remorse for given she feels some responsibility for her actions as the Queen of Blades), hope they don't kill her and take her back as leader. It's never quite clear why she goes back the Zerg specifically and directly after hearing Mengsk's propaganda about Raynor's execution. There seemed to be more behind that decision but it's left too far open that it just seems contrived that way because this is supposed to be the Zerg expansion and that it "won't do" if Kerrigan didn't control Zerg again.

I think they were just afraid that portraying it adequately would make it difficult for the audience to sympathise with her, so they still half-arsed.

I think it's partly because they were more or less "forced" to half-arse it because they made themselves an impossible task to accomplish. How can you make a story that has to equally focus both on a character that is sympathisable and a race of bloodthirsty, killing machines with no moral compunctions (especially with such a character using this race) without it being incongruous/messing up one or the other or even both?

It's similar to how they shoehorned the Prophecy arc into Wings of Liberty because they didn't trust the audience to understand Raynor's journey. And instead, it just helps those people, since now they think he only did it because a prophecy told him to.

I shudder at all this. There's nothing worse than having your immersion broken when you can see the cogwheels of the plot grinding so loudly in that instance you just described.

Not at all. His argument was that Kerrigan is evil and morally bankrupt. Since philosophers have been debating on morality for ages, establishing his standard for it through other examples is completely valid.

But the standards of morality and the hypocrisy of moral stances being prone to inconsistency are not what his arguement is about. He's saying that unnecessary killing is evil and since Kerrigan does it, she's evil. You're saying that Fenix/Raynor/Tassadar do that too, therefore, they are evil such that if Grad doesn't think they're evil than Kerrigan is not evil either. You're accusing him of moral relativity and not addresing the fundamental argument that's being made, irrespective of whomever makes that argument. I can agree that Fenix, Raynor and Tassadar are evil because they permit, assist or perform unnecessary killing and therefore, so is Kerrigan because she does the same. What do you say to that?

I'm not assuming that the notion I suggested is correct. I'm just giving an example of something else it could be. I mean, if police or even military (and apparently the Magistrate has military authority?) were sent to prevent a riot from escalating further, you wouldn't necessarily believe that their first concern is the welfare of the rioters. Like I said, I've been wondering about the Magistrate. This guy gets an entire Confederate planet, and apparently still has pretty much no influence with the Confederacy?

You shouldn't need to give examples of what it could be or wonder about what the role Magistrate specifically is to understand Mengsk's approach toward one. I didn't feel compelled to know this exact detail since I had all I needed to know in that magistrates have some responsibility involving taking people under their wing and Mengsk confirms that by approaching one and invoking that responsibility as a call to action.

No, and I don't think I've got anything to argue against that beyond throwing away the anti-Protoss strike force.

If one were inclined to think this way, it was probably always intended to be a utilitarian throwaway strike force/sacrifice. Even if it failed to stop the Protoss, the Zerg may have had enough time to destroy the Confeds on Tarsonis due to the strike force serving as a delaying tactic.

My point was that the Overmind went to the Terran worlds out of a desperate need for something that would counter the Protoss' psionics and ability to bend space and warp reality. The Aiur Protoss still have this, Dark Templar entirely inconsequential. Kerrigan was supposed to be the solution, but isn't used. And yet this is never brought up in any way.

Protoss are Protoss, Dark Templar or not. There were Protoss on their designated base of operations which proved even more deadly than previously thought because of the newly-discovered Dark Templar, which necessitated some one like Kerrigan to fight both the Protoss' psionic ability to bend space and warp reality (their frickin supreme general of the Protoss army was also present to boot) and their discovered ability to kill Zerg leaders permanently right then and there. There's nothing that implies she isn't being used because she is being used. There's nothing that implies that Kerrigan must accompany the Overminds' invasion of Char at that specific moment and there's also nothing that implies she couldn't come later to help. That she actually didn't arrive later in Episode 3 can hardly be the fault of the writer in addressing that "problem" since the focus is now on Protoss, not the Zerg, so we have to make assumptions that circumstances changed but we weren't privy to them.

FanaticTemplar

11-27-2015, 11:47 AM

I don't need to justify or fanon a reason for the Overmind's actions. It's plain to see that it did what it did because it was over-confident and not despairing anymore.

So you're saying a character's expressed motivation is discarded without ever being addressed or mentioned because its circumstances have clearly changed? If only you knew how often I have argued as you are now.

That's a summary for HotS not a reason why Kerrigan is compelled to kill so many other people/aliens when all she wants to do is kill one man only. Because she's a human now, it's not unreasonable to think she would consider relying on her natural skills as a superlative assassin to pursue Mengsk rather before going back to the Zerg (which she seems to actually dislike and show remorse for given she feels some responsibility for her actions as the Queen of Blades), hope they don't kill her and take her back as leader. It's never quite clear why she goes back the Zerg specifically and directly after hearing Mengsk's propaganda about Raynor's execution. There seemed to be more behind that decision but it's left too far open that it just seems contrived that way because this is supposed to be the Zerg expansion and that it "won't do" if Kerrigan didn't control Zerg again.

You mean her superlative skills as a Ghost? When Mengsk has an entire program full of those defending him? It's not unreasonable to think such an attempt is doomed to fail. She went to the Zerg because the Umojan missions showed that she could still control them and she needed an army capable of combating the Dominion, something Raynor's Raiders and the Umojans blatantly could not.

I think it's partly because they were more or less "forced" to half-arse it because they made themselves an impossible task to accomplish. How can you make a story that has to equally focus both on a character that is sympathisable and a race of bloodthirsty, killing machines with no moral compunctions (especially with such a character using this race) without it being incongruous/messing up one or the other or even both?

The Zerg are weapons. All weapons are killing machines with no moral compunctions. I think it could have been feasible, but then again, we'll never know.

I shudder at all this. There's nothing worse than having your immersion broken when you can see the cogwheels of the plot grinding so loudly in that instance you just described.

Agreed.

But the standards of morality and the hypocrisy of moral stances being prone to inconsistency are not what his arguement is about. He's saying that unnecessary killing is evil and since Kerrigan does it, she's evil. You're saying that Fenix/Raynor/Tassadar do that too, therefore, they are evil such that if Grad doesn't think they're evil than Kerrigan is not evil either. You're accusing him of moral relativity and not addresing the fundamental argument that's being made, irrespective of whomever makes that argument. I can agree that Fenix, Raynor and Tassadar are evil because they permit, assist or perform unnecessary killing and therefore, so is Kerrigan because she does the same. What do you say to that?

I'm not sure what you're expecting. I've said earlier that:

I hated Heart of the Swarm. I think Kerrigan does absolutely nothing to earn her stupid angelic ascension and "redemption".

And more recently:

I believe and state that Kerrigan is a mass-murdering psychopath.

That one's not perfectly accurate since I didn't choose the wording, but it's close enough that I was willing to write it. And if you were inclined to search through my post history, I don't believe you would ever find me claiming that Kerrigan is some kind of moral paragon in Heart of the Swarm.

And incidentally, that was not what the argument was about either. I asked if Kerrigan had targeted anything other than military assets in her war with the Dominion. Pretending that the argument was somehow about me believing Kerrigan has done nothing wrong, that would be a straw man.

You shouldn't need to give examples of what it could be or wonder about what the role Magistrate specifically is to understand Mengsk's approach toward one. I didn't feel compelled to know this exact detail since I had all I needed to know in that magistrates have some responsibility involving taking people under their wing and Mengsk confirms that by approaching one and invoking that responsibility as a call to action.

There are a lot of things you don't need to know, and if you're going to start acting like this is a forum about not asking questions about StarCraft, I'm going to be extremely disappointed. Incidentally, your argument hinges on confirmation via Mengsk accurately reading someone, which is the position you're arguing against.

If one were inclined to think this way, it was probably always intended to be a utilitarian throwaway strike force/sacrifice. Even if it failed to stop the Protoss, the Zerg may have had enough time to destroy the Confeds on Tarsonis due to the strike force serving as a delaying tactic.

You think he was always intending to throw away a force powerful enough to stop the Fleet of the Executor?

Protoss are Protoss, Dark Templar or not. There were Protoss on their designated base of operations which proved even more deadly than previously thought because of the newly-discovered Dark Templar, which necessitated some one like Kerrigan to fight both the Protoss' psionic ability to bend space and warp reality (their frickin supreme general of the Protoss army was also present to boot) and their discovered ability to kill Zerg leaders permanently right then and there. There's nothing that implies she isn't being used because she is being used. There's nothing that implies that Kerrigan must accompany the Overminds' invasion of Char at that specific moment and there's also nothing that implies she couldn't come later to help. That she actually didn't arrive later in Episode 3 can hardly be the fault of the writer in addressing that "problem" since the focus is now on Protoss, not the Zerg, so we have to make assumptions that circumstances changed but we weren't privy to them.

You still don't understand. Allow me to reformulate this in a way that will hopefully clarify the issue.

The Overmind despaired at the Protoss' psionic might and ability to bend time and warp space, he could find no way to deal with this. We'll call this "Problem A".

Then he found Humanity, and their psionic potential, and he decided that they would allow him to resolve Problem A. But when he does obtain Kerrigan, Problem A is never mentioned or addressed.

You tell me that Kerrigan was attempting to solve Problem B - that would be Zeratul's band - but that's no relevant, because I'm not saying Kerrigan did nothing, I'm saying that Problem A, which motivated the entire first act of the game, gets straight up forgotten. There is no explanation in the game. The fan-theory that you've provided, that after facing the Protoss he decided that Problem A wasn't actually a problem at all and that he didn't need Kerrigan is fine. But it's not in the game. I hope this was clearer.

Turalyon

11-28-2015, 12:12 AM

So you're saying a character's expressed motivation is discarded without ever being addressed or mentioned because its circumstances have clearly changed? If only you knew how often I have argued as you are now.

I never said discarded. You're the one intrepreting it that way.

You mean her superlative skills as a Ghost? When Mengsk has an entire program full of those defending him? It's not unreasonable to think such an attempt is doomed to fail.

Not really. She's the hero. I expected Raynor's attempts at whatever he was doing in WoL to fail given his circumstances, yet he did not and went beyond. If Raynor can do all those things with convenient plot devices and circumstances, I can't see why Kerrigan as a Ghost can't be afforded the same thing. Besides, Kerrigan is trained in knowing how such a program would be used in defense, so she could easily find exploits around them. That's not unreasonable, right?

The Zerg are weapons. All weapons are killing machines with no moral compunctions. I think it could have been feasible, but then again, we'll never know.

The Zerg are indeed weapons whose only function is to kill on a mass-scale (they are not just merely a gun or sword) but with minds of their own and capable of self-direction. And yet we are asked to sympathise with someone who would so willingly use such living weapons (and become one like them) to only kill one man with the huge potential of killing many more due to collateral. It's a tough ask. The only way to do something like this and make it agreeable is to focus on the sympathisable angle and downplay the atrociousness of their whole reason for being (Brad Bird's animated film The Iron Giant for example) or vice versa (like Kerrigan in BW). Given what the Zerg really are (the Primals not being that different/better morally either), they're certainly not the best choice of "lens" to observe how sympathisable a character Kerrigan is. It's impossible to get an equal balance (which is what HotS went for) of those two things because any attempt can only seem half-arsed/wishy-washy since neither aspect is served fully.

I'm not sure what you're expecting.

That one's not perfectly accurate since I didn't choose the wording, but it's close enough that I was willing to write it. And if you were inclined to search through my post history, I don't believe you would ever find me claiming that Kerrigan is some kind of moral paragon in Heart of the Swarm.

And incidentally, that was not what the argument was about either. I asked if Kerrigan had targeted anything other than military assets in her war with the Dominion. Pretending that the argument was somehow about me believing Kerrigan has done nothing wrong, that would be a straw man.

Then I honestly don't know what point you were trying to make by rebutting Grad then in the first place. Your saying Kerrigan is evil, which is what the initial position, in and of itself, that Grad put forward was. That should've been it - done and dusted. It seemed to me that you're the one that shifted it to something else without properly stating your position and why, leaving most to think you were actually refuting that Kerrigan is evil.

There are a lot of things you don't need to know, and if you're going to start acting like this is a forum about not asking questions about StarCraft, I'm going to be extremely disappointed. Incidentally, your argument hinges on confirmation via Mengsk accurately reading someone, which is the position you're arguing against.

Your first sentence seems incomplete so I don't understand what beef you're starting to have against me there. I think I've made my position clear enough though. Mengsk is reading the situation, not the person and that they're not the same thing. If you disagree, fine, I'm just putting down another interpretation.

You think he was always intending to throw away a force powerful enough to stop the Fleet of the Executor?

Mind you, I did say "if one was inclined to think this way...". But if you must insist, let's try and adopt this stance for a minute. There is no way to think that the strikeforce would survive being sandwiched between two alien powers that have both shown some skill in slaughtering Terrans, so I wouldn't necessarily think that Mengsk would think that this strikeforce is "super-powerful" otherwise he wouldn't have left them down there seeing their utility. Afterall, Mengsk only expresses confidence (even then, I just took that as him trying to openly rationalise/assuage what on paper is a suicide mission and as a way to gee-up the strike force because if Mengsk is willing to send his second to oversee the mission, it must be important and that he won't abandon us if things go pear shaped) in Kerrigan's ability to hold-off the Protoss, not obliterate them.

Also, you're statement/question hinges on the assumption that the strike forces main importance lies in it being especially powerful and potentially invincible, right? It would have to be in order to fight the Protoss, right? That would be a strange assumption to make in-universe if not for the fact that the gameplay itself has the unusual win condition of obliterating all Protoss presence on the map. I admit that it only works if we segregate gameplay-story (yeah, yeah, I know it's not ideal cos we're heading into fanon territory and floating away from the main position). It'd make more sense if the mission objective was more about survival and being timed to indicate the Zerg reaching critical mass and killing the Confeds (and your strikeforce) whilst having to destroy a set number of Protoss assets to ward them off (not completely annihilate them).

All in all, I'm reaching. I'm just adopting the stance and reading into it way more than I should. Still, the interpretation is an interesting one to take without too glaring a hole in it.

The Overmind despaired at the Protoss' psionic might and ability to bend time and warp space, he could find no way to deal with this. We'll call this "Problem A".

Then he found Humanity, and their psionic potential, and he decided that they would allow him to resolve Problem A. But when he does obtain Kerrigan, Problem A is never mentioned or addressed.

It is addressed! Kerrigan is fighting Protoss! You cannot say she is not. Sure, it's not on Aiur but it doesn't specifically stipulate that her entire purpose/reason for creation was to go to Aiur at that immediate point of time! That you feel it is, is an assumption on your part.

You tell me that Kerrigan was attempting to solve Problem B - that would be Zeratul's band - but that's no relevant, because I'm not saying Kerrigan did nothing, I'm saying that Problem A, which motivated the entire first act of the game, gets straight up forgotten. There is no explanation in the game. The fan-theory that you've provided, that after facing the Protoss he decided that Problem A wasn't actually a problem at all and that he didn't need Kerrigan is fine. But it's not in the game. I hope this was clearer.

I am understanding your position better than you think because my position does not actually deny your position in its totality. I've had to use fanon to give a potential reason for how Problem A is addressed (specifically a supposed change in priority), but I never actually denied that Problem A is still not a concern. What you call Problem B, to me, is still Problem A.

FanaticTemplar

11-28-2015, 11:36 AM

I never said discarded. You're the one intrepreting it that way.

That is correct, I am.

Not really. She's the hero. I expected Raynor's attempts at whatever he was doing in WoL to fail given his circumstances, yet he did not and went beyond. If Raynor can do all those things with convenient plot devices and circumstances, I can't see why Kerrigan as a Ghost can't be afforded the same thing. Besides, Kerrigan is trained in knowing how such a program would be used in defense, so she could easily find exploits around them. That's not unreasonable, right?

Yes, it is unreasonable. Kerrigan may be trained in knowing how such a program would be used, but Mengsk will be preparing for her attack. Specifically her attack, because he's been the one using her for most of her latter career as a Ghost. Furthermore, if you look at the precedents for Ghost-based assassination you'll see that Nova, who I understand to be fairly comparable to human Kerrigan, couldn't even get to Gabriel Tosh in Ghost of a Chance (Wings of Liberty) without the help of Raynor's Raiders - and Arcturus Mengsk has an army of Toshes. Go earlier than that to Kerrigan herself, and in Revolution (Rebel Yell) while she did assassinate Duke's officers on Antiga, she needed the help or Raynor and the Sons of Korhal to get there. And Mengsk on Korhal will be far better defended than those occupying officers ever were. Even going back to Arcturus' father, Angus Mengsk, there were three Ghosts sent after him, and he didn't have anywhere near the means Arcturus does (notably, he didn't have an army of Ghosts). This is not an assassination that has ever been presented as feasible in the series (Maybe in some expanded lore, but I don't really care about those).

And if you're going to go with "she's the protagonist so of course she'll succeed", that's not an in-story justification, and if we're using out-of-story explanations, I believe that "it's an RTS wargame so of course it'll use large scale warfare" trumps that argument.

The Zerg are indeed weapons whose only function is to kill on a mass-scale (they are not just merely a gun or sword) but with minds of their own and capable of self-direction. And yet we are asked to sympathise with someone who would so willingly use such living weapons (and become one like them) to only kill one man with the huge potential of killing many more due to collateral. It's a tough ask. The only way to do something like this and make it agreeable is to focus on the sympathisable angle and downplay the atrociousness of their whole reason for being (Brad Bird's animated film The Iron Giant for example) or vice versa (like Kerrigan in BW). Given what the Zerg really are (the Primals not being that different/better morally either), they're certainly not the best choice of "lens" to observe how sympathisable a character Kerrigan is. It's impossible to get an equal balance (which is what HotS went for) of those two things because any attempt can only seem half-arsed/wishy-washy since neither aspect is served fully.

Yes, the story would have to focus on Kerrigan at the detriment of the Zerg, and that would bring us back to the ongoing problem with the Zerg since the Overmind's death, that the Zerg have no character to them and are merely tools to be used by others for their own goals.

Then I honestly don't know what point you were trying to make by rebutting Grad then in the first place. Your saying Kerrigan is evil, which is what the initial position, in and of itself, that Grad put forward was. That should've been it - done and dusted. It seemed to me that you're the one that shifted it to something else without properly stating your position and why, leaving most to think you were actually refuting that Kerrigan is evil.

Why do you focus on Gradius' initial position? He linked his rant to me because I asked if Kerrigan had ever targeted anything other than military targets in her campaign against the Dominion. Also, within the context of the series, I wouldn't say Kerrigan is evil, just as I wouldn't say Tassadar or Fenix or Raynor is evil, I simply acknowledge that she's a mass murdering psychopath. Besides which, you can object to terrible arguments on their own merits. If I said that the sun is hot because it's so small, having a problem with that doesn't mean you think that the sun is cold.

Your first sentence seems incomplete so I don't understand what beef you're starting to have against me there.

Well, part of that is because I was using the general 'you' rather than the specific, so it would have been better for me to write "There are a lot of things we don't need to know". But yes, I do feel that your argument is condescending. Why shouldn't I wonder about the role of the Magistrate, just because you don't feel that it is necessary? Wondering about the details of the series is the entire reason I come to this forum.

Also, looking back at it I completely messed up the formatting in that post when I quoted myself and forgot to go back to quoting you. Whoops :p.

I think I've made my position clear enough though. Mengsk is reading the situation, not the person and that they're not the same thing. If you disagree, fine, I'm just putting down another interpretation.

No, the problem here is not that I disagree, I'm fine with that. The problem is that your argument is circular. You started out asserting that Mengsk wasn't reading the Magistrate because he made the entire judgement based on what the Magistrate's role is, and then you said you didn't need to know what the Magistrate's role is, because Mengsk judgement confirms your interpretation of the role.

Mind you, I did say "if one was inclined to think this way...". But if you must insist, let's try and adopt this stance for a minute. There is no way to think that the strikeforce would survive being sandwiched between two alien powers that have both shown some skill in slaughtering Terrans, so I wouldn't necessarily think that Mengsk would think that this strikeforce is "super-powerful" otherwise he wouldn't have left them down there seeing their utility. Afterall, Mengsk only expresses confidence (even then, I just took that as him trying to openly rationalise/assuage what on paper is a suicide mission and as a way to gee-up the strike force because if Mengsk is willing to send his second to oversee the mission, it must be important and that he won't abandon us if things go pear shaped) in Kerrigan's ability to hold-off the Protoss, not obliterate them.

Also, you're statement/question hinges on the assumption that the strike forces main importance lies in it being especially powerful and potentially invincible, right? It would have to be in order to fight the Protoss, right? That would be a strange assumption to make in-universe if not for the fact that the gameplay itself has the unusual win condition of obliterating all Protoss presence on the map. I admit that it only works if we segregate gameplay-story (yeah, yeah, I know it's not ideal cos we're heading into fanon territory and floating away from the main position). It'd make more sense if the mission objective was more about survival and being timed to indicate the Zerg reaching critical mass and killing the Confeds (and your strikeforce) whilst having to destroy a set number of Protoss assets to ward them off (not completely annihilate them).

That sounds fair, but it's also worth noting that the mission ends not with the Zerg overrunning the planet but Kerrigan saying that they've neutralised the Protoss, so it's not just a gameplay/story segregation thing, it's actually in the canon that Kerrigan and her forces neutralised the Fleet of the Executor. And in Egression, we see the remnants of the Fleet still lingering in orbit.

All in all, I'm reaching. I'm just adopting the stance and reading into it way more than I should. Still, the interpretation is an interesting one to take without too glaring a hole in it.

I'm always interested in alternative theories, I'm just giving you a hard time to see how well it holds together :p.

It is addressed! Kerrigan is fighting Protoss!

Are you asserting that fighting Zeratul and his band will neutralise the Protoss' psionics, their ability to bend time and their ability to warp space? Because if you're not, it isn't addressed.

I am understanding your position better than you think because my position does not actually deny your position in its totality. I've had to use fanon to give a potential reason for how Problem A is addressed (specifically a supposed change in priority), but I never actually denied that Problem A is still not a concern. What you call Problem B, to me, is still Problem A.

The problem with trying to pretend that dealing with Problem B is dealing with Problem A is that, for one thing, it's still not addressed in the story itself. Did you not say earlier that "The point I was making that if a character's motivation isn't given the proper illusion that this was their only reasoned choice, then an audience can only surmise that it must be contrived."?

For another, it's actually not possible for the Dark Templar to be the thing that the Overmind feared and wanted to get Kerrigan for, because he got his knowledge of the Protoss from the memories of the Xel'naga, and the Dark Templar did not exist at the time the Xel'naga left.

As I keep saying, your argument that the Overmind's priorities changed is perfectly acceptable, but it's still not in the story.

Turalyon

11-29-2015, 01:43 AM

Yes, it is unreasonable. Kerrigan may be trained in knowing how such a program would be used, but Mengsk will be preparing for her attack. Specifically her attack, because he's been the one using her for most of her latter career as a Ghost.

Who's the better Ghost here, Kerrigan or Mengsk? :p

I doubt anyone can truly prepare for an attack of this nature no matter how expected and secure one thinks they are since it is unconventional and would require Mengsk to be insanely paranoid at all times. He'd have to hole up in a bunker and not make any public appearances to be truly considered safe. The presence of such agencies whose sole purpose is to prevent assasination/terrorism don't necessarily nullify the potential threats or prevent belligerents from trying and finding ways around it. Indeed, were it not a RTS (yeah, I know the effective counter to what follows is "well, it is an RTS so you'd just have to put up with it" but just let me indulge) I think this would make for a more effective/credible enemy for Kerrigan to fight than the expected (we're using the Zerg afterall) easy-peasy steamrolling of the Dominion military that we got.

Furthermore, if you look at the precedents for Ghost-based assassination you'll see that Nova, who I understand to be fairly comparable to human Kerrigan, couldn't even get to Gabriel Tosh in Ghost of a Chance (Wings of Liberty) without the help of Raynor's Raiders - and Arcturus Mengsk has an army of Toshes. Go earlier than that to Kerrigan herself, and in Revolution (Rebel Yell) while she did assassinate Duke's officers on Antiga, she needed the help or Raynor and the Sons of Korhal to get there. And Mengsk on Korhal will be far better defended than those occupying officers ever were. Even going back to Arcturus' father, Angus Mengsk, there were three Ghosts sent after him, and he didn't have anywhere near the means Arcturus does (notably, he didn't have an army of Ghosts). This is not an assassination that has ever been presented as feasible in the series (Maybe in some expanded lore, but I don't really care about those).

Good point. In response, all I can say is that if Kerrigan needed support in her endeavours as a Ghost, is to then avail herself of the assistance that Valerian (Mengsk Snr didn't seem to have any compunction potentially killing his son, I'm sure Valerian can be contried to begin thinking the same way about his father) and Raynor's Raiders can provide. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to help out. Course, that won't do because it's supposed to be a Zerg campaign, isn't it? :p

And if you're going to go with "she's the protagonist so of course she'll succeed", that's not an in-story justification, and if we're using out-of-story explanations, I believe that "it's an RTS wargame so of course it'll use large scale warfare" trumps that argument.

For the former, the in-story justification that Raynor gets as far as he could whilst being supposedly inebriated and severely depressed is largely because he's "just that good". I can't see why we can't attribute that to Kerrigan.

As to the latter, it's curious that even despite HotS being supposedly about large scale warfare and the use of Zerg, the focus which Blizz intended was specifically on the "hero" character of Kerrigan and her being a linch-pin to every mission/ to give more an RPG feel than it being RTS. Given that the focus was on her pretty much soloing the whole campaign anyway (and most of it plays that way, too), why not just make the missions about her being the Ghost anyway? Oh, that's right, it's supposed to be about the Zerg. How could I forget? :p

Yes, the story would have to focus on Kerrigan at the detriment of the Zerg, and that would bring us back to the ongoing problem with the Zerg since the Overmind's death, that the Zerg have no character to them and are merely tools to be used by others for their own goals.

Now you're getting it. Focusing on a sympathisable and more human Kerrigan is at cross purpose to focusing on Zerg. Because the story is about Kerrigan and Blizz ultimately intended to focus on her, the Zerg as a racial identity really got the short shrift in their own campaign. Although I've liked Kerrigan as a character, my lore interest lies in the Zerg and boy, what a crushing disappointment it was to have them the way they were in HotS what with the Swarm Zerg characters being nothing more than facile representations and that further development of this race being epitomised in the form of the troglodyte that was Dehaka. As you can see, I'm still smarting from it all. :mad:

Why do you focus on Gradius' initial position?

To get it back on point because others were getting confused about your position.

Also, within the context of the series, I wouldn't say Kerrigan is evil, just as I wouldn't say Tassadar or Fenix or Raynor is evil, I simply acknowledge that she's a mass murdering psychopath. Besides which, you can object to terrible arguments on their own merits.

Curious. And yet you would call the Overmind out as being evil in its actions (in one of our past discussions). Or was that position not within the context of the series?

Well, part of that is because I was using the general 'you' rather than the specific, so it would have been better for me to write "There are a lot of things we don't need to know". But yes, I do feel that your argument is condescending. Why shouldn't I wonder about the role of the Magistrate, just because you don't feel that it is necessary? Wondering about the details of the series is the entire reason I come to this forum.

Seems like all it took was two words for it make me sound like I was condescending. Those words were "you shouldn't" when it was proabably more appropriate to say "one doesn't have to". I can be condescending sometimes but usually for the intent of humour (it's a very typical Aussie thing to do - "taking the piss" - which others find difficult to parse understandable) more than being an outright arsehole. My intent was neither of those so "my bad" if it came across that way. Feel free to wonder away, all I was saying that it's not entirely necessary to get what the title 'Magistrate' exactly means or entails since we already have a cursory but sufficient indication of it already.

The problem is that your argument is circular. You started out asserting that Mengsk wasn't reading the Magistrate because he made the entire judgement based on what the Magistrate's role is, and then you said you didn't need to know what the Magistrate's role is, because Mengsk judgement confirms your interpretation of the role.

There's the source of your misunderstanding. The bolded is meant that we don't need to know the entire and exact meaning of the title and specific roles a "magistrate" to understand it because we are given the description in the prologue: "Acting as Magistrate, you are to safeguard the colonists and keep their panic from escalating any further" which tell us in broadstrokes all we really need to know. It's easy to infer that Magistrates "look after people" at the basic level in-universe and out-of-universe. In-universe, this is what Mengsk is counting on. Simple (I hope).

That sounds fair, but it's also worth noting that the mission ends not with the Zerg overrunning the planet but Kerrigan saying that they've neutralised the Protoss, so it's not just a gameplay/story segregation thing, it's actually in the canon that Kerrigan and her forces neutralised the Fleet of the Executor. And in Egression, we see the remnants of the Fleet still lingering in orbit.

You know, I had considered that exact specific quote from Kerrigan before I made that reply you just responded to but I decided to see if you would pick that up for me. :D

Going along with the re-written scenario I proposed, the quote still works if say the aim was to destroy Protoss pylons/Nexus or destroyed a set number of Protoss units/buildings and they retreated. Sure, the term "neutralised" may sound sound odd to use in those scenarios and in retrospect of what we actually got in that mission, but it has leeway since it can indicate the stopping of a threat in general not just the specific total obilteration of that said threat. Furthermore, there's proof that the strike force didn't succeed in completely wiping out the Protoss since the Adjutant's opening monologue in the mission after (The Hammer Falls) specifically says "Protoss and Zerg forces continue to battle across the core continent of Tarsonis".

Are you asserting that fighting Zeratul and his band will neutralise the Protoss' psionics, their ability to bend time and their ability to warp space? Because if you're not, it isn't addressed.

I'm struggling mighty hard not to be snide here... but, with that above statement/question you made in mind, how can you then imply that Kerrigan will "neutralise Protoss psionics, their ability to bend time and their ability to warp space" by going to Aiur?

The problem with trying to pretend that dealing with Problem B is dealing with Problem A is that, for one thing, it's still not addressed in the story itself. Did you not say earlier that "The point I was making that if a character's motivation isn't given the proper illusion that this was their only reasoned choice, then an audience can only surmise that it must be contrived."?

Thing is, I'm not actually pretending that Problem B is Problem A because in actuality, it's still all Problem A and there's no distinction. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be an arse even though the following may sound like it, but you're the one making the distinction that going to Aiur is so important for Kerrigan to go to and yet you don't have proof beyond supposition.

For another, it's actually not possible for the Dark Templar to be the thing that the Overmind feared and wanted to get Kerrigan for, because he got his knowledge of the Protoss from the memories of the Xel'naga, and the Dark Templar did not exist at the time the Xel'naga left.

Keep in mind that Tassadar, the Executor and supreme general of the Protoss military arm that is the Templar who had been stifling the Overminds earlier efforts, is also on Char and that Kerrigan knows about him and subsequently fought him throughout the campaign. Naturally, the Overmind would've known about this, too. Even were it not for the fact that Tassadar was the ultimate cause of it's demise, the Overmind was not stupid for leaving Kerrigan to wipe out a Protoss who commands the military force that wields such powers that it's apparently afraid of. Kerrigan is certainly being used and double time too what with the emergence of this new threat in the Dark Templar.

FanaticTemplar

11-29-2015, 01:01 PM

Who's the better Ghost here, Kerrigan or Mengsk? :p

I doubt anyone can truly prepare for an attack of this nature no matter how expected and secure one thinks they are since it is unconventional and would require Mengsk to be insanely paranoid at all times. He'd have to hole up in a bunker and not make any public appearances to be truly considered safe. The presence of such agencies whose sole purpose is to prevent assasination/terrorism don't necessarily nullify the potential threats or prevent belligerents from trying and finding ways around it. Indeed, were it not a RTS (yeah, I know the effective counter to what follows is "well, it is an RTS so you'd just have to put up with it" but just let me indulge) I think this would make for a more effective/credible enemy for Kerrigan to fight than the expected (we're using the Zerg afterall) easy-peasy steamrolling of the Dominion military that we got.

Good point. In response, all I can say is that if Kerrigan needed support in her endeavours as a Ghost, is to then avail herself of the assistance that Valerian (Mengsk Snr didn't seem to have any compunction potentially killing his son, I'm sure Valerian can be contried to begin thinking the same way about his father) and Raynor's Raiders can provide. I'm sure they'd be more than willing to help out. Course, that won't do because it's supposed to be a Zerg campaign, isn't it? :p

The issue isn't that it's impossible for Kerrigan to assassinate Mengsk, the issue is that it's unreasonable. As we've agreed, Mengsk is incredibly well defended against such an attack, and the odds of failure go up immensely if this tactic were used instead.

For the former, the in-story justification that Raynor gets as far as he could whilst being supposedly inebriated and severely depressed is largely because he's "just that good". I can't see why we can't attribute that to Kerrigan.

We could, but I don't think Raynor's ever made a decision on the basis that he's the protagonist and therefore will succeed :p. The way these things usually work is that they're put in impossible situations and the fact that they come out on top against all odds is what makes them "just that good".

As to the latter, it's curious that even despite HotS being supposedly about large scale warfare and the use of Zerg, the focus which Blizz intended was specifically on the "hero" character of Kerrigan and her being a linch-pin to every mission/ to give more an RPG feel than it being RTS. Given that the focus was on her pretty much soloing the whole campaign anyway (and most of it plays that way, too), why not just make the missions about her being the Ghost anyway? Oh, that's right, it's supposed to be about the Zerg. How could I forget? :p

Hey, we wouldn't have gotten Abathur is we did that, so count your blessings!

Oh, unless we were going with Kerrigan as James Bond and Abathur as Q!

Now you're getting it. Focusing on a sympathisable and more human Kerrigan is at cross purpose to focusing on Zerg. Because the story is about Kerrigan and Blizz ultimately intended to focus on her, the Zerg as a racial identity really got the short shrift in their own campaign. Although I've liked Kerrigan as a character, my lore interest lies in the Zerg and boy, what a crushing disappointment it was to have them the way they were in HotS what with the Swarm Zerg characters being nothing more than facile representations and that further development of this race being epitomised in the form of the troglodyte that was Dehaka. As you can see, I'm still smarting from it all. :mad:

I always considered Heart of the Swarm to be an improvement on the portrayal of the Zerg after Brood War, which had no Zerg characters in it at all, but yes, I completely agree with your disappointment here. And while there's still minimal characterisation for the Zerg, in exchange we get a plot about Kerrigan spinning in circles. Ugh.

To get it back on point because others were getting confused about your position.

No, I mean, why Gradius' initial position and not mine?

Curious. And yet you would call the Overmind out as being evil in its actions (in one of our past discussions). Or was that position not within the context of the series?

No, it's just from looking at it from its narrative perspective. I mean, Raynor and Fenix are not in the same situation as Tassadar and Kerrigan, because the things they do in The Jacobs Installation and The Kel-Morian Combine are completely out of character and inexplicable, so I usually just pretend they never happened when considering those characters. Kerrigan and Tassadar, however, definitely do commit those atrocities. From the narrative perspective, it's a story of rehabilitation, they start off doing evil things, but they are conflicted over them. Over the course of the story, they turn their backs on those ways and become better people. So it's a journey out of darkness for those characters, and in the end they're not the evil people they once were. It doesn't fit ideally into my view of morality and justice because there are no reparations made to the victims, but I believe in the ability of people to change. Of course, with StarCraft's cosmic scale, those mistakes in their history are planetary genocides, and the scale of it all kinda interferes with the narrative, but I'm usually willing to give a story some allowances in good faith. I don't know if that answers your question?

Seems like all it took was two words for it make me sound like I was condescending. Those words were "you shouldn't" when it was proabably more appropriate to say "one doesn't have to". I can be condescending sometimes but usually for the intent of humour (it's a very typical Aussie thing to do - "taking the piss" - which others find difficult to parse understandable) more than being an outright arsehole. My intent was neither of those so "my bad" if it came across that way. Feel free to wonder away, all I was saying that it's not entirely necessary to get what the title 'Magistrate' exactly means or entails since we already have a cursory but sufficient indication of it already.

I apologise for ascribing such intent to you then. It seems it was just a misunderstanding.

There's the source of your misunderstanding. The bolded is meant that we don't need to know the entire and exact meaning of the title and specific roles a "magistrate" to understand it because we are given the description in the prologue: "Acting as Magistrate, you are to safeguard the colonists and keep their panic from escalating any further" which tell us in broadstrokes all we really need to know. It's easy to infer that Magistrates "look after people" at the basic level in-universe and out-of-universe. In-universe, this is what Mengsk is counting on. Simple (I hope).

One could, but I never inferred that. The Confederates are the ones who were watching the Zerg on Mar Sara and arresting everyone who tried to fight them, so I don't really picture them sending someone out of concern for the colonists' welfare :p.

You know, I had considered that exact specific quote from Kerrigan before I made that reply you just responded to but I decided to see if you would pick that up for me. :D

Going along with the re-written scenario I proposed, the quote still works if say the aim was to destroy Protoss pylons/Nexus or destroyed a set number of Protoss units/buildings and they retreated. Sure, the term "neutralised" may sound sound odd to use in those scenarios and in retrospect of what we actually got in that mission, but it has leeway since it can indicate the stopping of a threat in general not just the specific total obilteration of that said threat. Furthermore, there's proof that the strike force didn't succeed in completely wiping out the Protoss since the Adjutant's opening monologue in the mission after (The Hammer Falls) specifically says "Protoss and Zerg forces continue to battle across the core continent of Tarsonis".

At this point, I really need to be reminded what your opinion on Wings of Liberty's Safe Haven is.

I'm struggling mighty hard not to be snide here... but, with that above statement/question you made in mind, how can you then imply that Kerrigan will "neutralise Protoss psionics, their ability to bend time and their ability to warp space" by going to Aiur?

Fair enough, then not 'neutralise' but 'match'. Kerrigan was intended to fight the Protoss' psionics on their own terms by having her psionic potential assimilates into the Swarm.

Thing is, I'm not actually pretending that Problem B is Problem A because in actuality, it's still all Problem A and there's no distinction. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be an arse even though the following may sound like it, but you're the one making the distinction that going to Aiur is so important for Kerrigan to go to and yet you don't have proof beyond supposition.

Problem A was the Overmind's entire motivation for the first act, and Problem B was only discovered midway through the second. Even if you want to claim that problem A and Problem B are somehow the same problem, then that still needs to be addressed.

Keep in mind that Tassadar, the Executor and supreme general of the Protoss military arm that is the Templar who had been stifling the Overminds earlier efforts, is also on Char and that Kerrigan knows about him and subsequently fought him throughout the campaign. Naturally, the Overmind would've known about this, too. Even were it not for the fact that Tassadar was the ultimate cause of it's demise, the Overmind was not stupid for leaving Kerrigan to wipe out a Protoss who commands the military force that wields such powers that it's apparently afraid of. Kerrigan is certainly being used and double time too what with the emergence of this new threat in the Dark Templar.

Fair enough, but there's no reason to imagine that the Fleet of the Executor was comprised of the majority of the Templar Caste, nor that Tassadar is the only Protoss commander (in fact, I don't think the Overmind has any reason to believe he'd be their highest commander) and it certainly didn't have the defensive advantage of the Protoss fighting on the own home. As much as Tassadar stymied the Overmind in the Terran worlds, there is every reason to believe that things are only going to get harder from here.

Turalyon

11-30-2015, 08:34 AM

The issue isn't that it's impossible for Kerrigan to assassinate Mengsk, the issue is that it's unreasonable. As we've agreed, Mengsk is incredibly well defended against such an attack, and the odds of failure go up immensely if this tactic were used instead.

Mengsk is also incredibly well-defended against Zerg attack since he has the artifact in his control, the Psi Destroyer which only the power of Primal Zerg can get around and potentially the Hybrids through Duran/Narud. Kerrigan would've known of two of those possibilities (the artifact and the Hybrids/Duran/Narud link) before she even went on avengin' and all. Sure you can put the defense up of: "well, we don't know about these specific defenses against Zerg that Mengsk had until we met them going through HotS story, so we can't retrospectively say Kerrigan going back to the Zerg was unreasonable", but I can use the same defense to justify why going down Ghost route is similarly not unreasonable - we don't know of the specific anti-Ghost threats until we meet them, right?

Seems like both options are unreasonable at various degrees. The real question I suppose then is, is it more unreasonable for her to go down her Ghost route than it is for to go back to the Zerg? I've mentioned that her human skills lie in assasination and now that she's human, it's not unreasonable for her to go along that path again. Also, given that her Zerg capabilities as the QoB were due to a different persona, that she feels shame for and presumably wants to distance herself from after being turned back into a human, her sudden jumping back to the Zerg doesn't seem earned or reasonable on her part. There's also the matter of somehow expecting the Zerg to just suddenly accept her again and not just kill her seeing her as a threat.

We could, but I don't think Raynor's ever made a decision on the basis that he's the protagonist and therefore will succeed :p.

Oh, I don't know, it often seems like it even if it wasn't actually intended. Most of WoL has Raynor jumping into these situations being the do-gooder rather than finding himself in them.

Hey, we wouldn't have gotten Abathur if we did that, so count your blessings!

If HotS had turned out instead to be "Kerrrigan as a Ghost campaign", I wouldn't miss Abathur at all since I wouldn't have known he'd existed. ;)

I always considered Heart of the Swarm to be an improvement on the portrayal of the Zerg after Brood War, which had no Zerg characters in it at all

True, but I'd consider that damning with faint praise. :D

No, I mean, why Gradius' initial position and not mine?

If I'm not mistaken, he made the point first and then you refuted.

No, it's just from looking at it from its narrative perspective. I mean, Raynor and Fenix are not in the same situation as Tassadar and Kerrigan, because the things they do in The Jacobs Installation and The Kel-Morian Combine are completely out of character and inexplicable, so I usually just pretend they never happened when considering those characters. Kerrigan and Tassadar, however, definitely do commit those atrocities. From the narrative perspective, it's a story of rehabilitation, they start off doing evil things, but they are conflicted over them. Over the course of the story, they turn their backs on those ways and become better people. So it's a journey out of darkness for those characters, and in the end they're not the evil people they once were. It doesn't fit ideally into my view of morality and justice because there are no reparations made to the victims, but I believe in the ability of people to change. Of course, with StarCraft's cosmic scale, those mistakes in their history are planetary genocides, and the scale of it all kinda interferes with the narrative, but I'm usually willing to give a story some allowances in good faith. I don't know if that answers your question?

It does answer my question. However, I still think that there's quite a bit of differentiation between Tassadar and what Kerrigan does in HotS though. Kerrigan should still be considered somewhat "dark" since her whole motive is entirely and remains selfish all the way to the end and yet the narrative seems desperate in trying to give her a free pass what with Raynor's easily getting over kerrigan being infested again and her flying away like an angel after ruining the major stabilising force of the Terrans and leaving them to pick up the pieces. You can have as much good faith as you want but with Kerrigan in HotS, it has to come with a lot of cognitive dissonance.

One could, but I never inferred that. The Confederates are the ones who were watching the Zerg on Mar Sara and arresting everyone who tried to fight them, so I don't really picture them sending someone out of concern for the colonists' welfare :p.

That's quite an odd stance, if you don't mind me saying, for you to have considering the "reveal" that the Confeds are seemingly in cahoots with the Zerg (or that they think they are) only after the magistrate is introduced and is given the responsibility of helping colonist relocate in the first Terran mission, Backwater. If the Confeds weren't concerned about the welfare of the colonists (or even pretending to be for that matter), a magistrate wouldn't have been assigned at all.

At this point, I really need to be reminded what your opinion on Wings of Liberty's Safe Haven is.

My problems with Safe Haven is more to do with why Selendis would waste precious Protoss lives on what is nothing more than a pointless pissing contest with a supposed friend of the Protoss but I see where you're going with this. Safe Haven has a similar mission objective to New Gettysburg where you must destroy all the Protoss presence but then hints that the Protoss weren't all completely destroyed (despite the gameplay showing otherwise) and that all that happened was that they just lost enough Protoss to finally acquiesce to Raynor (as shown in the in-game cinematic). I guess that's where New Gettysburg fails because it's solely from the Terran POV and there's no cinematic, so the end result of destroying all the Protoss things on the map looks like the entire Protoss fleet was destroyed. This backed up by the comment of being "neutralised", but then again, the exact meaning of the word "neutralised" is dependent on the context since in the alternate New Gettysburg scenario I proposed, the term can still be used even when the Protoss weren't all destroyed to the last. That and the adjutant still mentions Protoss are still on Tarsonis fighting Zerg across the core continent in the opening monologue of the next mission.

Fair enough, then not 'neutralise' but 'match'. Kerrigan was intended to fight the Protoss' psionics on their own terms by having her psionic potential assimilates into the Swarm.

And is she not "matching" her powers against Protoss?

Problem A was the Overmind's entire motivation for the first act, and Problem B was only discovered midway through the second. Even if you want to claim that problem A and Problem B are somehow the same problem, then that still needs to be addressed.

You're insisting that there's a Problem A and a Problem B. I'm saying there's only Problem A but that it has multiple facets.

Fair enough, but there's no reason to imagine that the Fleet of the Executor was comprised of the majority of the Templar Caste, nor that Tassadar is the only Protoss commander (in fact, I don't think the Overmind has any reason to believe he'd be their highest commander) and it certainly didn't have the defensive advantage of the Protoss fighting on the own home. As much as Tassadar stymied the Overmind in the Terran worlds, there is every reason to believe that things are only going to get harder from here.

I can counter your "there's no reason to imagine that..." with my own suppositions in favour of the Zerg and the Overmind. Afterall, the Overmind does state that when it touched minds with Zeratul, "all his secrets were made known to me", which could imply just about anything really.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to defend here. Are you saying that Tassadar is not good enough a target for Kerrigan? I mean sure, I could understand that position if it were only Zeratul and the Dark Templar, but it seems you're stretching a tad in order to justify your intent that "Kerrigan must go to Aiur!". Kerrigan is but one entity in the Swarm, who is left to fight possibly the most dangerous Protoss enemy the Overmind has encountered in Tassadar, plus Zeratul and his band, and yet that is still not enough to convince you that she's fulfilling the role that she was intended for. I honestly don't know what else to say to that...

FanaticTemplar

11-30-2015, 11:15 AM

Mengsk is also incredibly well-defended against Zerg attack since he has the artifact in his control, the Psi Destroyer which only the power of Primal Zerg can get around and potentially the Hybrids through Duran/Narud. Kerrigan would've known of two of those possibilities (the artifact and the Hybrids/Duran/Narud link) before she even went on avengin' and all. Sure you can put the defense up of: "well, we don't know about these specific defenses against Zerg that Mengsk had until we met them going through HotS story, so we can't retrospectively say Kerrigan going back to the Zerg was unreasonable", but I can use the same defense to justify why going down Ghost route is similarly not unreasonable - we don't know of the specific anti-Ghost threats until we meet them, right?

Seems like both options are unreasonable at various degrees. The real question I suppose then is, is it more unreasonable for her to go down her Ghost route than it is for to go back to the Zerg? I've mentioned that her human skills lie in assasination and now that she's human, it's not unreasonable for her to go along that path again. Also, given that her Zerg capabilities as the QoB were due to a different persona, that she feels shame for and presumably wants to distance herself from after being turned back into a human, her sudden jumping back to the Zerg doesn't seem earned or reasonable on her part. There's also the matter of somehow expecting the Zerg to just suddenly accept her again and not just kill her seeing her as a threat.

Yes, I do think it's far more unreasonable to expect her to go the Ghost route. For one thing, everything since Brood War has been quite clear that the Zerg are infinitely powerful, so there's absolutely no reason to expect Mengsk to be able to stop them, arse-pulled deus ex machinas aside. When I say that Mengsk will be protected from Ghosts, I don't mean that he'll have some magic Ghost-destroying device, I mean that his conventional and established defenses are more than sufficient to the task. Not wanting to go back to the Zerg is one thing, but doing so out of desperation and desire for revenge is the main point of the narrative. And the Umojan missions are all about establishing that Kerrigan still has control over the Zerg. Naktul was super happy to have her back, so that too is perfectly reasonable.

Oh, I don't know, it often seems like it even if it wasn't actually intended. Most of WoL has Raynor jumping into these situations being the do-gooder rather than finding himself in them.

That's the same thing for these purposes.

If I'm not mistaken, he made the point first and then you refuted.

He presented that article as a response to me, so one would think that the thing he was responding to was relevant.

It does answer my question. However, I still think that there's quite a bit of differentiation between Tassadar and what Kerrigan does in HotS though. Kerrigan should still be considered somewhat "dark" since her whole motive is entirely and remains selfish all the way to the end and yet the narrative seems desperate in trying to give her a free pass what with Raynor's easily getting over kerrigan being infested again and her flying away like an angel after ruining the major stabilising force of the Terrans and leaving them to pick up the pieces. You can have as much good faith as you want but with Kerrigan in HotS, it has to come with a lot of cognitive dissonance.

Presenting Kerrigan's motives as entirely selfish is somewhat missing the point. Mengsk has actually been targeting civilians. Forget Tarsonis, remember those Mar Saran colonists in Liberation Day? How about Mengsk's gulag in a volcano (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ZiBkotXlQ)? Ignoring how important it is for Mengsk to be removed because Kerrigan is one of his victims doesn't make for a good argument.

That's quite an odd stance, if you don't mind me saying, for you to have considering the "reveal" that the Confeds are seemingly in cahoots with the Zerg (or that they think they are) only after the magistrate is introduced and is given the responsibility of helping colonist relocate in the first Terran mission, Backwater. If the Confeds weren't concerned about the welfare of the colonists (or even pretending to be for that matter), a magistrate wouldn't have been assigned at all.

I'm not sure what you're saying. You don't think the Confederates knew about the Zerg until after the Magistrate was appointed?

My problems with Safe Haven is more to do with why Selendis would waste precious Protoss lives on what is nothing more than a pointless pissing contest with a supposed friend of the Protoss but I see where you're going with this. Safe Haven has a similar mission objective to New Gettysburg where you must destroy all the Protoss presence but then hints that the Protoss weren't all completely destroyed (despite the gameplay showing otherwise) and that all that happened was that they just lost enough Protoss to finally acquiesce to Raynor (as shown in the in-game cinematic). I guess that's where New Gettysburg fails because it's solely from the Terran POV and there's no cinematic, so the end result of destroying all the Protoss things on the map looks like the entire Protoss fleet was destroyed. This backed up by the comment of being "neutralised", but then again, the exact meaning of the word "neutralised" is dependent on the context since in the alternate New Gettysburg scenario I proposed, the term can still be used even when the Protoss weren't all destroyed to the last. That and the adjutant still mentions Protoss are still on Tarsonis fighting Zerg across the core continent in the opening monologue of the next mission.

Agreed on Selendis, and I have nothing further to add about Mengsk's action in New Gettysburg. It could have happened as you say, though that is not my interpretation.

And is she not "matching" her powers against Protoss?

She's matching her powers to some Protoss, but she's not matching the Protoss' powers with her own.

You're insisting that there's a Problem A and a Problem B. I'm saying there's only Problem A but that it has multiple facets.

I'm saying the entire first act of the story revolves around Problem A, before Problem B was ever introduced. You can't say that the Overmind was acting on motivation he wouldn't receive yet, unless you claim that the Overmind is omniscient.

I can counter your "there's no reason to imagine that..." with my own suppositions in favour of the Zerg and the Overmind. Afterall, the Overmind does state that when it touched minds with Zeratul, "all his secrets were made known to me", which could imply just about anything really.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to defend here. Are you saying that Tassadar is not good enough a target for Kerrigan? I mean sure, I could understand that position if it were only Zeratul and the Dark Templar, but it seems you're stretching a tad in order to justify your intent that "Kerrigan must go to Aiur!". Kerrigan is but one entity in the Swarm, who is left to fight possibly the most dangerous Protoss enemy the Overmind has encountered in Tassadar, plus Zeratul and his band, and yet that is still not enough to convince you that she's fulfilling the role that she was intended for. I honestly don't know what else to say to that...

No, I'm saying that I want the Overmind's motivation for invading the Terran worlds to be coherent. Even if, as you assert, he merely changed his priorities due to a change in the circumstances he could observe, then that should still have been mentioned in the story.

Turalyon

12-01-2015, 06:07 AM

For one thing, everything since Brood War has been quite clear that the Zerg are infinitely powerful, so there's absolutely no reason to expect Mengsk to be able to stop them, arse-pulled deus ex machinas aside.

Unfortunately, we can't consider deus ex machinas as an aside since it was also BW that established that such things can exist to stop the OP Zerg and are within the capability of Terrans to develop (ie: Psi Disruptor). Win some, lose some. ;)

Kerrigan also knows that Mengsk has the artifact (the EU novel Flashpoint reveals this) and that there's no assurance the Zerg will accept her back, so there's the possibility of Kerrigan herself thinking it may be unreasonable going down the Zerg path. Then again, she's got a screw loose up there so she probably won't know what's unreasonable anymore anyway. :p

When I say that Mengsk will be protected from Ghosts, I don't mean that he'll have some magic Ghost-destroying device, I mean that his conventional and established defenses are more than sufficient to the task.

Great, that means Mengsk would be assured to give some worthwhile resistance and tension to the story when Kerrigan the Ghost engages him. Compared to the foregone conclusion that HotS was by going the Zerg route...

Anyways, Mengsk's established defences are not that crash-hot since a non-Ghost army like Raynor's Raiders can infiltrate Korhal without being noticed until they cause a ruckus and then still escape scot-free. Given the upheaval that Media Blitz should've caused/implied to have caused (it's hard to say what effect it really had...), Mengsk's Dominion could've easily been written to have been weakened sufficiently enough for Kerrigan's infiltration as a Ghost to succeed.

Not wanting to go back to the Zerg is one thing, but doing so out of desperation and desire for revenge is the main point of the narrative. And the Umojan missions are all about establishing that Kerrigan still has control over the Zerg. Naktul was super happy to have her back, so that too is perfectly reasonable.

I never really felt the desperation you speak of. If there was something that evoked desperation and the Zerg feeling like her only recourse, I would gladly accept it but there's none to be had. All we have is the revenge angle and that's too weak on it's own to support her decision to go to the Zerg. If there was a choice, I would've preferred it if she felt compelled to willingly chose the Zerg rather than due to desperation since that'd give room for a different and new exploration of the character (my fanon HotS had Kerrigan re-join the Zerg because she ultimately realises she's a monster and deserves to be part of the Zerg because of that).

That's the same thing for these purposes.

Seems to me that "jumping in being a do-gooder" whilst being supposedly drunk and depressed yet still things turning out really swell qualifies as "protagonist succeeding because he's the protagonist".

He presented that article as a response to me, so one would think that the thing he was responding to was relevant.

I thought your questioning about whether Kerrigan attacked non-military targets was in response to the general idea that Kerrigan was not evil. I don't even know anymore. Let's just drop it - I can't be arsed looking back to confirm it. :D

Presenting Kerrigan's motives as entirely selfish is somewhat missing the point. Mengsk has actually been targeting civilians. Forget Tarsonis, remember those Mar Saran colonists in Liberation Day? How about Mengsk's gulag in a volcano (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3ZiBkotXlQ)? Ignoring how important it is for Mengsk to be removed because Kerrigan is one of his victims doesn't make for a good argument.

Don't know why you're comparing with Mengsk - I was comparing Kerrigan's "evil" with Tassadar's "evil" and saying the former's worse. Kerrigan's selfishness makes her irresponsible. She should know better that her actions would cause collateral damage but she continues to do it because she feels she has to, damned be the consequences. It's that or she doesn't care about the consequences. Either way, it's a form of chaotic evil.

You don't think the Confederates knew about the Zerg until after the Magistrate was appointed?

No but the jury's out on Duke though. It's hard to know whether he truly knows what's going on with the Zerg and the Confeds but I get the impression that he's kept in the dark. Since Duke is the one that assigns the Magistrate, I'm interpreting that he is somewhat civic minded even if it's just him following rules by the book.

Duke also only stops Raynor when he destroys Confed property not when killing the numerous Zerg creatures and Creep colonies lying about. One could interpret that as Duke just using that as a cover excuse to arrest people who attack Zerg cos he secretly knows about the Zerg and doesn't want them harmed because of orders or that he's just that by-the-book and officious when he sees Raynor destroying Government property. It's hard to tell.

It could have happened as you say, though that is not my interpretation.

Validation of alternate interpretations is enough. :D

She's matching her powers to some Protoss, but she's not matching the Protoss' powers with her own.

Huh? So what you're saying is that she's not fighting enough Protoss? She is still fighting a formidable amount of Protoss, plus some unexpected Protoss with different powers.

I'm saying the entire first act of the story revolves around Problem A, before Problem B was ever introduced. You can't say that the Overmind was acting on motivation he wouldn't receive yet, unless you claim that the Overmind is omniscient.

Like I said, the motivation/problem hasn't changed or not changed in a significant manner.

No, I'm saying that I want the Overmind's motivation for invading the Terran worlds to be coherent.

But you seem to conflate "coherent" with your opinion that "Kerrigan must go to Aiur when the Overmind does". The Overmind invaded Terran worlds to get psionic abilities to fight Protoss in the hope of beating them - there's nothing about the motivation that specifically states Kerrigan has to go to Aiur with the Overmind when it does.

Even if, as you assert, he merely changed his priorities due to a change in the circumstances he could observe, then that should still have been mentioned in the story.

Keep in mind that the "change in priorities" and "change in circumstances" still revolve around Kerrigan engaging Protoss. As Kerrigan is still engaging Protoss and fulfilling her mandate, having to mention that she is not engaging some other Protoss elsewhere is not necessary.

FanaticTemplar

12-01-2015, 10:53 AM

Unfortunately, we can't consider deus ex machinas as an aside since it was also BW that established that such things can exist to stop the OP Zerg and are within the capability of Terrans to develop (ie: Psi Disruptor). Win some, lose some. ;)

Kerrigan also knows that Mengsk has the artifact (the EU novel Flashpoint reveals this) and that there's no assurance the Zerg will accept her back, so there's the possibility of Kerrigan herself thinking it may be unreasonable going down the Zerg path. Then again, she's got a screw loose up there so she probably won't know what's unreasonable anymore anyway. :p

Unfortunately, it's in the nature of deus ex machinas to come out of nowhere, and therefore cannot be planned for. If you want to "prepare for the unexpected", then such a thing is as viable whether you go the assassination route or the Zerg invasion route, and therefore does not tip the balance either way and can be dismissed from these considerations.

Also the games' story should be able to stand on their own, so I can't accept arguments drawn from the novels :p.

Great, that means Mengsk would be assured to give some worthwhile resistance and tension to the story when Kerrigan the Ghost engages him. Compared to the foregone conclusion that HotS was by going the Zerg route...

Remember, if you're going with out-of-story explanations, then this ends immediately with the fact that it's an RTS :p.

Anyways, Mengsk's established defences are not that crash-hot since a non-Ghost army like Raynor's Raiders can infiltrate Korhal without being noticed until they cause a ruckus and then still escape scot-free. Given the upheaval that Media Blitz should've caused/implied to have caused (it's hard to say what effect it really had...), Mengsk's Dominion could've easily been written to have been weakened sufficiently enough for Kerrigan's infiltration as a Ghost to succeed.

Getting into a city is not the same as getting to the Emperor. I could get into Washington DC, but I probably still couldn't assassinate the president.

I never really felt the desperation you speak of. If there was something that evoked desperation and the Zerg feeling like her only recourse, I would gladly accept it but there's none to be had. All we have is the revenge angle and that's too weak on it's own to support her decision to go to the Zerg. If there was a choice, I would've preferred it if she felt compelled to willingly chose the Zerg rather than due to desperation since that'd give room for a different and new exploration of the character (my fanon HotS had Kerrigan re-join the Zerg because she ultimately realises she's a monster and deserves to be part of the Zerg because of that).

You get no desperation from this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbDYD28mODA)?

Seems to me that "jumping in being a do-gooder" whilst being supposedly drunk and depressed yet still things turning out really swell qualifies as "protagonist succeeding because he's the protagonist".

Same goes with any protagonist. Antagonists also succeed because they're antagonists, up to the point where it conflicts with the former. You'll have to be clearer though, I thought we were discussing Kerrigan's motivations and choices, not her narrative function.

Don't know why you're comparing with Mengsk - I was comparing Kerrigan's "evil" with Tassadar's "evil" and saying the former's worse. Kerrigan's selfishness makes her irresponsible. She should know better that her actions would cause collateral damage but she continues to do it because she feels she has to, damned be the consequences. It's that or she doesn't care about the consequences. Either way, it's a form of chaotic evil.

I'm not 'comparing' her with Mengsk, I'm wondering why you feel that Mengsk's soldiers lives are so sacrosanct. We've seen Mengsk targeting civilians - not collateral, deliberate targeting - and his soldiers are the ones doing the deed. It's not like they don't know about Mengsk either, after Media Blitz. Yet they must be allowed to continue indefinitely, because it's chaotic evil for one of their victims to fight back against them? That's nonsense.

Do you really think that only uninvolved, neutral parties should be allowed to overthrow murderous despots? Let's contextualise this. Arcturus only became anti-Confederate after his family was murdered - yes, he turned out evil, but is that the reason? - Jim Raynor only turned against the Confederates after he was arrested for trying to save his fellow colonists, He only turned against Arcturus when his love interest/super best platonic friend forever was killed because of Mengsk - not when Mengsk genocided a planet. Do you think they're all chaotic evil for being personally motivated?

No but the jury's out on Duke though. It's hard to know whether he truly knows what's going on with the Zerg and the Confeds but I get the impression that he's kept in the dark. Since Duke is the one that assigns the Magistrate, I'm interpreting that he is somewhat civic minded even if it's just him following rules by the book.

Wait, Duke appointed the Magistrate?

Duke also only stops Raynor when he destroys Confed property not when killing the numerous Zerg creatures and Creep colonies lying about. One could interpret that as Duke just using that as a cover excuse to arrest people who attack Zerg cos he secretly knows about the Zerg and doesn't want them harmed because of orders or that he's just that by-the-book and officious when he sees Raynor destroying Government property. It's hard to tell.

If he were that dutiful, I don't think he'd have been that easy to convert to the Sons of Korhal, certainly not in the way he was.

Huh? So what you're saying is that she's not fighting enough Protoss? She is still fighting a formidable amount of Protoss, plus some unexpected Protoss with different powers.

Like I said, the motivation/problem hasn't changed or not changed in a significant manner.

How can you say that? It's a problem that did not exist at the time.

But you seem to conflate "coherent" with your opinion that "Kerrigan must go to Aiur when the Overmind does". The Overmind invaded Terran worlds to get psionic abilities to fight Protoss in the hope of beating them - there's nothing about the motivation that specifically states Kerrigan has to go to Aiur with the Overmind when it does.

Leaving Kerrigan on Char did not successfully beat the Protoss, evidently.

This is the situation as we have it:

OVERMIND: I can see no way of defeating the Protoss.
KERRIGAN: What about me?
OVERMIND: You shall become my means of defeating the Protoss.
DAGGOTH: The Protoss have a new, unexpected weapon against us.
OVERMIND: Use Kerrigan to counter it while we go defeat the Protoss.
DAGGOTH: I thought we needed Kerrigan to defeat the Protoss?
OVERMIND: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Nissa

12-01-2015, 09:29 PM

Leaving Kerrigan on Char did not successfully beat the Protoss, evidently.

This is the situation as we have it:

OVERMIND: I can see no way of defeating the Protoss.
KERRIGAN: What about me?
OVERMIND: You shall become my means of defeating the Protoss.
DAGGOTH: The Protoss have a new, unexpected weapon against us.
OVERMIND: Use Kerrigan to counter it while we go defeat the Protoss.
DAGGOTH: I thought we needed Kerrigan to defeat the Protoss?
OVERMIND: I have no idea what you're talking about.

I think I mentioned this before somewhere else, but there's no evidence Kerrigan was specifically engineered for use against the Protoss. The manual states that the Zerg wanted genetic material for psychics, and the game also states during the Terran missions that the Zerg wanted psychics. There's no proof that:
(a) They needed Kerrigan specifically
(b) They only grabbed Kerrigan
(c) They needed their subject(s) to directly fight the Protoss

The ultimate goal of the Zerg in getting psychics appeared to be gain the genetic background it needed to get a foothold in understanding how to combat the Protoss. They needed to study psychic genetics, and they got that simply by assimilating psychics -- after all, Sons of Korhal would have no way of knowing the Zerg need psychics if the Zerg hadn't grabbed any at all by that point. While Kerrigan's infestation is probably related to this matter, there's no evidence of the Overmind's specific goals for her. Actually, the Overmind's loose hand in controlling her possibly indicates that keeping Kerrigan is more of an experiment than a firm part of a certain plan.

Gradius

12-01-2015, 09:33 PM

I'm wondering just how many "innocent lives" were destroyed by Tassadar. If you play SC1, it makes it clear the protoss razed the planet only when it was already way too late.

"Thirteen hours after the evacuation of Mar Sara, Protoss warships took up orbit around the colony and unleashed a massive planetary bombardment."

And then Antiga was razed after zerg had already been called to it en-masse by psi emitters. Only the manual paints a different picture for Chau Sara, but even then, the zerg were spawning units on that world and we can assume it was already screwed.

I'm not 'comparing' her with Mengsk, I'm wondering why you feel that Mengsk's soldiers lives are so sacrosanct. We've seen Mengsk targeting civilians - not collateral, deliberate targeting - and his soldiers are the ones doing the deed. It's not like they don't know about Mengsk either, after Media Blitz. Yet they must be allowed to continue indefinitely, because it's chaotic evil for one of their victims to fight back against them? That's nonsense.
Some of them are brainpanned, but more importantly, they're individuals. Not everyone in the army is evil. According to the lead writer, Mengsk holds on to power "With a mix of brutality, incredible intrigue, and old-fashioned cunning. Mengsk's empire at the time of Heart of the Swarm is by no means secure, but he is crafty and has many mechanisms to hold on to power."

It's not really the people's fault for being unable to overthrow a tyrannical despot.

Nissa

12-01-2015, 09:35 PM

Turalyon

12-02-2015, 08:27 AM

Unfortunately, it's in the nature of deus ex machinas to come out of nowhere, and therefore cannot be planned for. If you want to "prepare for the unexpected", then such a thing is as viable whether you go the assassination route or the Zerg invasion route, and therefore does not tip the balance either way and can be dismissed from these considerations.

But the Psi Disruptor is not an unexpected DEM anymore by the time Sc2 begins, so Mengsk could've designed another one in the years he was building up his Dominion again cos he knew the Queen of Blades was gonna come for him. If not that, one could just say he spent all those 4 years building up defences against a Zerg attack and neglected to defend himself against Terran attacks. It's not that unreasonable to think that since it certainly explains why Raynor was able to get so far as he did landing on frickin Korhal despite not being even trained as a Ghost, having an army tagging along with him and being supposedly at his "worst" from the start of WoL.

Also the games' story should be able to stand on their own, so I can't accept arguments drawn from the novels :p.

Yeah, I hung my head in shame at having to use that as a reference. Either way, Kerrigan knows that the artifact is out there somewhere (either under Valerian or Mengsk's Snr) and could cripple her since anyone would use it against her immediately if she ever tried to use the Zerg again.

Remember, if you're going with out-of-story explanations, then this ends immediately with the fact that it's an RTS :p.

Looks like they intended it as an RPS (role-playing strategy) since the focus was always about the Kerrigan character being the important unit on the board. The same philosophy would've applied better if the story was about her being Ghost than it was about using the Zerg.

Getting into a city is not the same as getting to the Emperor.

It's a big deal if Raynor is supposed to be the number 1 terrorist on their list. Some security force the Dominion have for not spotting Raynor earlier, I mean if they can't do that, how can I expect them to stop Kerrigan, who'd be even better at infiltrating places?

I could get into Washington DC, but I probably still couldn't assassinate the president.

I wouldn't expect you to since you don't have superpowers or the training to back up a pathological need for vengeance against the president. :p

You get no desperation from this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbDYD28mODA)?

Heart-breaking possibly, but desperation, no.

You'll have to be clearer though, I thought we were discussing Kerrigan's motivations and choices, not her narrative function.

We're talking about Raynor succeeding largely when he shouldn't because the in-universe reason is that he's "just that good". It's why Valerian wants to recruit him. If that is so, we can attribute this and use it as justification for Kerrigan's chances of taking the Ghost route. She shouldn't really succeed but she can because she's really "just that good".

I'm not 'comparing' her with Mengsk

Well, I was comparing - but only Kerrigan and Tassadar.

I'm wondering why you feel that Mengsk's soldiers lives are so sacrosanct. We've seen Mengsk targeting civilians - not collateral, deliberate targeting - and his soldiers are the ones doing the deed. It's not like they don't know about Mengsk either, after Media Blitz. Yet they must be allowed to continue indefinitely, because it's chaotic evil for one of their victims to fight back against them? That's nonsense.

I'm thinking more of the moral responsibility of one's particular actions or inactions that can affect others. If it is potentially unnecessary and reasonably avoidable to taking other lives (whoever those other people are) in order to ultimately take the life of a single individual, is that not morally the better path to take compared to knowing that action or inaction will take other lives along with the ultimate goal of taking that single life but going ahead with that plan anyway?

Do you really think that only uninvolved, neutral parties should be allowed to overthrow murderous despots? Do you think they're all chaotic evil for being personally motivated?

No to both. I'm only talking about Kerrigan in this specific instance and making morality judgement calls on her only.

Wait, Duke appointed the Magistrate?

No, I said something along the lines of assign, as in, you know, giving him a task to do. Broadly, it was to look after these people and make sure they don't get out of hand.

If he were that dutiful, I don't think he'd have been that easy to convert to the Sons of Korhal, certainly not in the way he was.

Well, his life wasn't on the line in Backwater Station as it was in Norad II.

How can you say that? It's a problem that did not exist at the time.

Easy, you're still insisting on seeing it as two problems whereas I see it as one.

Leaving Kerrigan on Char did not successfully beat the Protoss, evidently.

So? Taking Kerrigan to Aiur wouldn't necessarily have beaten the Protoss either. In either scenario, whether the Overmind takes Kerrigan to Aiur or leaves her on Char, it was over-confident that it could defeat the Protoss in general since it had Kerrigan. There's no difference.

OVERMIND: Use Kerrigan to counter it while we go defeat the Protoss.

The Overmind is not going to Aiur first and foremost to fight the Protoss and beat them entirely in general warfare, it's going there since there's potentially lots of opportunities to take Protoss for assimilation. This is it's ultimate goal. There's no rule that stipulates that the Overmind can't attempt that/ can't choose to take risks and engage the Protoss unless Kerrigan is there too.

FanaticTemplar

12-02-2015, 10:40 AM

I think I mentioned this before somewhere else, but there's no evidence Kerrigan was specifically engineered for use against the Protoss. The manual states that the Zerg wanted genetic material for psychics, and the game also states during the Terran missions that the Zerg wanted psychics. There's no proof that:
(a) They needed Kerrigan specifically
(b) They only grabbed Kerrigan
(c) They needed their subject(s) to directly fight the Protoss

The ultimate goal of the Zerg in getting psychics appeared to be gain the genetic background it needed to get a foothold in understanding how to combat the Protoss. They needed to study psychic genetics, and they got that simply by assimilating psychics -- after all, Sons of Korhal would have no way of knowing the Zerg need psychics if the Zerg hadn't grabbed any at all by that point. While Kerrigan's infestation is probably related to this matter, there's no evidence of the Overmind's specific goals for her. Actually, the Overmind's loose hand in controlling her possibly indicates that keeping Kerrigan is more of an experiment than a firm part of a certain plan.

Oh, I agree, but again this doesn't show up in any way in the game. No psionically based unit, no apparent psionic upgrades in the Swarm, not even a mention anywhere of the Overmind getting anything out of it but Kerrigan herself.

But the Psi Disruptor is not an unexpected DEM anymore by the time Sc2 begins, so Mengsk could've designed another one in the years he was building up his Dominion again cos he knew the Queen of Blades was gonna come for him. If not that, one could just say he spent all those 4 years building up defences against a Zerg attack and neglected to defend himself against Terran attacks. It's not that unreasonable to think that since it certainly explains why Raynor was able to get so far as he did landing on frickin Korhal despite not being even trained as a Ghost, having an army tagging along with him and being supposedly at his "worst" from the start of WoL.

No, there was a Zerg assault on the Koprulu Sector during Wings of Liberty, so we can pretty much rule out Mengsk building a new Psi Disruptor.

Yeah, I hung my head in shame at having to use that as a reference. Either way, Kerrigan knows that the artifact is out there somewhere (either under Valerian or Mengsk's Snr) and could cripple her since anyone would use it against her immediately if she ever tried to use the Zerg again.

But Valerian agreed that his father had to be removed, and the artifact was with him and the Raiders when last we checked.

Looks like they intended it as an RPS (role-playing strategy) since the focus was always about the Kerrigan character being the important unit on the board. The same philosophy would've applied better if the story was about her being Ghost than it was about using the Zerg.

But it was about using the Zerg. Fans would have rioted at two Terran games and no Zerg. Also, I'm rioting as it is with the hero-centric gameplay, so no making it even less of an RTS :p.

It's a big deal if Raynor is supposed to be the number 1 terrorist on their list. Some security force the Dominion have for not spotting Raynor earlier, I mean if they can't do that, how can I expect them to stop Kerrigan, who'd be even better at infiltrating places?

What makes you think Raynor ever went to the planet himself, and didn't just stay in the Hyperion?

I wouldn't expect you to since you don't have superpowers or the training to back up a pathological need for vengeance against the president. :p

But even without all that, I can still get into Washington DC :p.

Heart-breaking possibly, but desperation, no.

Huh.

We're talking about Raynor succeeding largely when he shouldn't because the in-universe reason is that he's "just that good". It's why Valerian wants to recruit him. If that is so, we can attribute this and use it as justification for Kerrigan's chances of taking the Ghost route. She shouldn't really succeed but she can because she's really "just that good".

No, you're talking about Kerrigan basing her tactical choices, in-story, on the fact that she's a protagonist. And Raynor hasn't done that.

I'm thinking more of the moral responsibility of one's particular actions or inactions that can affect others. If it is potentially unnecessary and reasonably avoidable to taking other lives (whoever those other people are) in order to ultimately take the life of a single individual, is that not morally the better path to take compared to knowing that action or inaction will take other lives along with the ultimate goal of taking that single life but going ahead with that plan anyway?

So you're asking if there is such a thing as a 'just war'?

No to both. I'm only talking about Kerrigan in this specific instance and making morality judgement calls on her only.

Why?

No, I said something along the lines of assign, as in, you know, giving him a task to do. Broadly, it was to look after these people and make sure they don't get out of hand.

Because of his transmission in Wasteland? I'm pretty sure that's not for the colonists' welfare, since the colonists themselves are quite unhappy with it. But I don't think there's much of a connection between Duke and the Magistrate's job, except insofar as Duke makes that job harder :p.

Easy, you're still insisting on seeing it as two problems whereas I see it as one.

I can't see how you can claim that. The Overmind had no knowledge of the Dark Templar. How can you that his non-Dark Templar problems are the same problem as the Dark Templar?

So? Taking Kerrigan to Aiur wouldn't necessarily have beaten the Protoss either. In either scenario, whether the Overmind takes Kerrigan to Aiur or leaves her on Char, it was over-confident that it could defeat the Protoss in general since it had Kerrigan. There's no difference.

That's not relevant. You're trying to justify the Overmind 'forgetting' his motivation by claiming that leaving Kerrigan on Char fulfills that purpose, when it evidently did not.

The Overmind is not going to Aiur first and foremost to fight the Protoss and beat them entirely in general warfare, it's going there since there's potentially lots of opportunities to take Protoss for assimilation. This is it's ultimate goal. There's no rule that stipulates that the Overmind can't attempt that/ can't choose to take risks and engage the Protoss unless Kerrigan is there too.

You're the one overly concerned about where Kerrigan goes. What I keep telling you is that this task was despair-inducingly impossible to the Overmind, right up to the point where it forgot about that for no reason.

Jconant

12-03-2015, 12:09 AM

You guys quote each other too much

Turalyon

12-03-2015, 04:45 AM

You guys quote each other too much

See there? I quoted you, Jconant! Happy? :p

I have to quote FT's statements, otherwise my responses will look like even more meaningless gibberish on their own.

No, there was a Zerg assault on the Koprulu Sector during Wings of Liberty, so we can pretty much rule out Mengsk building a new Psi Disruptor.

A Zerg assault which apparently did nothing to weaken the Dominion in any significant way. I can take that as the Dominion being very well defended against Zerg attack (through DEM or just pure skill and preparedness - doesn't matter which) or that the Zerg weren't attacking the Dominion. Which is it supposed to be? Beats me.

But Valerian agreed that his father had to be removed, and the artifact was with him and the Raiders when last we checked.

Yes, but is Valerian as ruthless as Kerrigan that he'd allow her to rampage across Terran worlds to kill his father after seeing her as the QoB again? Would Kerrigan think he'd be better than Mengsk Snr and not use the artifact against her again. She can't trust that he'd be forgiving as Raynor. You know, now that I say this, that would have been an interesting part of the story to explore in regards to Valerian if we had that in HotS.

But it was about using the Zerg. Fans would have rioted at two Terran games and no Zerg. Also, I'm rioting as it is with the hero-centric gameplay, so no making it even less of an RTS :p.

I know all that. That is why if they really did want to serve the Zerg properly and keep it as an RTS, Kerrigan should never have been the focus of the story since it risks (and did as HotS turns out) underserving both. If they instead wanted to serve Kerrigan as a sympathisable character and keep it as an RPS, the Zerg should not be involved for obvious reasons (they are not sympathisable and not conducive to an RPS game). It's kinda funny that you mean "rioting at two Terran games" since I actually think HotS is actually more about Terran matters than it is about Zerg. The Zerg in HotS actually feel like window-dressing and incidental to the story. I have raged about this previously and elsewhere...

What makes you think Raynor ever went to the planet himself, and didn't just stay in the Hyperion?

Eh, I wasn't really considering whether or not Raynor had any specific presence on the planet when I made that comment, I was just making the point that Korhal was so easy to infiltrate.

No, you're talking about Kerrigan basing her tactical choices, in-story, on the fact that she's a protagonist. And Raynor hasn't done that.

That's not what I thought I said or meant. What you replied to was what I really meant. Looks like I suck at explaining things sometimes. :p

So you're asking if there is such a thing as a 'just war'?

Kinda. I'm questioning whether Kerrigan's actions in HotS can be wholly considered a "just war". I think it's debatable and there are points for either end.

Why?

:confused: Because that was my intent? Because I am judgemental?

Because of his transmission in Wasteland? I'm pretty sure that's not for the colonists' welfare, since the colonists themselves are quite unhappy with it.

From a neutral perspective, giving that assignment to the Magistrate is certainly for the colonists benefit in a "I know what's best for you"- kind of way (since the alternative is getting ultimately nommed by the Zerg) even though it may serve some other agenda.

I can't see how you can claim that. The Overmind had no knowledge of the Dark Templar. How can you that his non-Dark Templar problems are the same problem as the Dark Templar?

Easy. His "non-Dark Templar" problems are the Protoss in general. The Protoss are a problem as they were (you know, the whole Overmind despairing thing you like to latch onto) and still are.

That's not relevant. You're trying to justify the Overmind 'forgetting' his motivation by claiming that leaving Kerrigan on Char fulfills that purpose, when it evidently did not.

I'm afraid it is relevent since I never said the Overmind forgot or changed his motivation of using Kerrigan against the Protoss.

You're the one overly concerned about where Kerrigan goes.

Really? How? All I've said recently is that Kerrigan is fighting Protoss which she can do anywhere there's Protoss. It just so happens that there's some on Char.

What I keep telling you is that this task was despair-inducingly impossible to the Overmind, right up to the point where it forgot about that for no reason.

You do like to go back to this "Overmind in despair" thing, don't you? The manual does say the Overmind was on the verge of despair but never went into despair. It well could've stopped when it discovered that humanity had psionic potential or when it finally captured Kerrigan. So tell me this, aside from the manual, where in the Overmind campaign itself does the Overmind actually show despair whenever it has to consider engaging the Protoss? Where is this despair that is, according to you, "forgotten"?

Nissa

12-03-2015, 11:07 AM

Oh, I agree, but again this doesn't show up in any way in the game. No psionically based unit, no apparent psionic upgrades in the Swarm, not even a mention anywhere of the Overmind getting anything out of it but Kerrigan herself.

That's kinda my point. You guys are debating on whether or not Kerrigan should logically have gone to Aiur based on her usefulness to the swarm when the fact of the matter is we never knew her specific purpose at all. It never showed up in gameplay and only slightly in story. There's no point debating it when there isn't enough information to debate over. It's all speculation.

ragnarok

12-03-2015, 04:17 PM

That's kinda my point. You guys are debating on whether or not Kerrigan should logically have gone to Aiur based on her usefulness to the swarm when the fact of the matter is we never knew her specific purpose at all. It never showed up in gameplay and only slightly in story. There's no point debating it when there isn't enough information to debate over. It's all speculation.

Going to Aiur would have helped immensely, unless she was firmly convinced the moment she went there, the Golden Armada would strike at her. Perhaps the swarm hadn't reached its full potential by the end of HotS.

FanaticTemplar

12-03-2015, 05:32 PM

Kinda. I'm questioning whether Kerrigan's actions in HotS can be wholly considered a "just war". I think it's debatable and there are points for either end.

I agree. However, within the context of the StarCraft series, I believe it is well within the standards established by other conflicts that have been coded as 'just', aside from fighting against things whose lives are coded as without value, like the Zerg.

(The rest of this argument is getting pretty confusing to me, so I'm going to assume this is the thrust of your argument and focus on it. Don't hesitate to bring any of your other points back to my attention if you think they're important.)

From a neutral perspective, giving that assignment to the Magistrate is certainly for the colonists benefit in a "I know what's best for you"- kind of way (since the alternative is getting ultimately nommed by the Zerg) even though it may serve some other agenda.

Interesting. I always thought they were being moved into the Wastelands because that's where the Zerg were, and the Confederates wanted to see them in action.

Easy. His "non-Dark Templar" problems are the Protoss in general. The Protoss are a problem as they were (you know, the whole Overmind despairing thing you like to latch onto) and still are.

I'm afraid it is relevent since I never said the Overmind forgot or changed his motivation of using Kerrigan against the Protoss.

Really? How? All I've said recently is that Kerrigan is fighting Protoss which she can do anywhere there's Protoss. It just so happens that there's some on Char.

You do like to go back to this "Overmind in despair" thing, don't you? The manual does say the Overmind was on the verge of despair but never went into despair. It well could've stopped when it discovered that humanity had psionic potential or when it finally captured Kerrigan. So tell me this, aside from the manual, where in the Overmind campaign itself does the Overmind actually show despair whenever it has to consider engaging the Protoss? Where is this despair that is, according to you, "forgotten"?

That's kinda my point. You guys are debating on whether or not Kerrigan should logically have gone to Aiur based on her usefulness to the swarm when the fact of the matter is we never knew her specific purpose at all. It never showed up in gameplay and only slightly in story. There's no point debating it when there isn't enough information to debate over. It's all speculation.

I'm pretty certain you still don't understand my point here, so maybe if I approach this in a different way it'll make things clearer. What was the Overmind's motivation for invading the Terran worlds in the early stages of StarCraft?

Turalyon

12-04-2015, 05:05 AM

However, within the context of the StarCraft series, I believe it is well within the standards established by other conflicts that have been coded as 'just', aside from fighting against things whose lives are coded as without value, like the Zerg.

I find that describing Kerrigan's actions against Mengsk in HotS as being more about vengeance and a vendetta than it being a "just war". Her initial intent for starting such a war was anything but just. Her conduct of the war may be somewhat "just" in some areas but her intent is always in contention. She only co-opted others opinions about what she was doing and restrained herself only when chastised (and not always even then) during the war she had already started. Also, after ending the war and displacing the existing unifying Terran force, she leaves the Terrans alone to rebuild the damage she wrought without helping! Worse, by the end of LotV, she leaves the Zerg in the hands of Zagara, who will most likely seek to ravage the Terrans in the near future.

Interesting. I always thought they were being moved into the Wastelands because that's where the Zerg were, and the Confederates wanted to see them in action.

That is indeed an interesting interpretation. I would've thought the Confeds would've known and seen their handiwork with the Zerg on Chau Sara (and it's subsequent burning) without having to do that again on Mar Sara. But who knows, maybe there was some conspiracy afoot that Duke secretly knows about. I'm calling it: Duke is evil and morally bankrupt! :p

I'm pretty certain you still don't understand my point here, so maybe if I approach this in a different way it'll make things clearer.

I do understand it, I'm just testing your position. ;)

What was the Overmind's motivation for invading the Terran worlds in the early stages of StarCraft?

The Overmind's reason for invading the Terran worlds was to find some psionic potential. It had hoped that this would help it fight Protoss better.

Nissa

12-04-2015, 11:24 AM

I'm pretty certain you still don't understand my point here, so maybe if I approach this in a different way it'll make things clearer. What was the Overmind's motivation for invading the Terran worlds in the early stages of StarCraft?

Did you get my point? The Overmind needed human psychics for genetic manipulation, but no part of the game states he needed Kerrigan (or a Kerrigan-analogue) to directly fight Protoss. We don't know that she's better at fighting DTs than other Zerg. It's plausible, but we don't know that. We don't know that she's better at fighting Protoss in general. If the Overmind had specific plans for her (which is debatable), we have no way of knowing whether or not her going to Aiur was a part of those plans, and so we can't say if it was weird or not.

FanaticTemplar

12-04-2015, 03:22 PM

I find that describing Kerrigan's actions against Mengsk in HotS as being more about vengeance and a vendetta than it being a "just war". Her initial intent for starting such a war was anything but just. Her conduct of the war may be somewhat "just" in some areas but her intent is always in contention. She only co-opted others opinions about what she was doing and restrained herself only when chastised (and not always even then) during the war she had already started. Also, after ending the war and displacing the existing unifying Terran force, she leaves the Terrans alone to rebuild the damage she wrought without helping! Worse, by the end of LotV, she leaves the Zerg in the hands of Zagara, who will most likely seek to ravage the Terrans in the near future.

Her initial intent for "starting" the war was that Mengsk sent a fleet of Battlecruisers to try to kill her and murdered her allies and loved ones. Again, I'm not seeing how injustices don't count if they're perpetrated against you, not how this compares unfavourably with previous rebellions in this series. Mengsk joined the Korhal rebellion after his family was killed. Raynor joined the Sons of Korhal after he was unjustly imprisoned for trying to defend his fellow colonists. Then he rebelled against Mengsk when he abandoned Kerrigan to die.

That is indeed an interesting interpretation. I would've thought the Confeds would've known and seen their handiwork with the Zerg on Chau Sara (and it's subsequent burning) without having to do that again on Mar Sara. But who knows, maybe there was some conspiracy afoot that Duke secretly knows about. I'm calling it: Duke is evil and morally bankrupt! :p

I mean, I know Arcturus is just trying to pump up some righteous fury into his troops when he claims that, but the part in Desperate Alliance where the Adjutant says that the Confederates arrest anyone trying to resist the Zerg seem well in line with that. I've also found it interesting the Duke wasn't in the briefing for The Trump Card.

I do understand it, I'm just testing your position. ;)

Are you sure? Because I "like to go back to this "Overmind in despair" thing" because it's the entire problem, and I only care about Kerrigan insofar as she's the only demonstrated solution. Any non-Kerrigan solution illustrated in the game are welcome.

See, if the Overmind had invaded the Terran world because he couldn't find "the secret location of Aiur" and ventured a guess that maybe only a telepath could find it, or something like that, then I wouldn't care that it doesn't work or get brought up again, because we already have a demonstrated solution in Zeratul's killing of Zasz. This problem is the entire motivation for StarCraft's first arc, and it gets forgotten.

The Overmind's reason for invading the Terran worlds was to find some psionic potential. It had hoped that this would help it fight Protoss better.

And I assume you'll agree that it stopped its invasion of the Terran worlds because it found what it was looking for? Did it help him fight the Protoss?

Did you get my point? The Overmind needed human psychics for genetic manipulation, but no part of the game states he needed Kerrigan (or a Kerrigan-analogue) to directly fight Protoss. We don't know that she's better at fighting DTs than other Zerg. It's plausible, but we don't know that. We don't know that she's better at fighting Protoss in general. If the Overmind had specific plans for her (which is debatable), we have no way of knowing whether or not her going to Aiur was a part of those plans, and so we can't say if it was weird or not.

Yes, I did.

RODTHEGOD

12-04-2015, 05:32 PM

Don't forget that the Overmind peered into Zeratuals mind. He could of taken out more information than just the location of Auir. He could have taken perhaps instantly learned about the High Templar/Dark Templar division and the fact that there were no Dark Templar on Auir. So leaving Kerrigan behind to deal the the Dark Templar while the Overmind and all the cerebrates head off to invade Auir isn't really risky.

Turalyon

12-05-2015, 02:31 AM

Her initial intent for "starting" the war was that Mengsk sent a fleet of Battlecruisers to try to kill her and murdered her allies and loved ones. Again, I'm not seeing how injustices don't count if they're perpetrated against you, not how this compares unfavourably with previous rebellions in this series.

But in that vein, is Mengsk not "just" in continuing to attack and attempt to put down an un-reasonable, sociopathic individual who leads a bunch of murderous creatures that can and has shown willingness to consume/control the whole sector? What you are arguing towards is moral relativity.

Besides, what you are saying refers to a character's motivation (of a sort) in order to do something or another more than anything else. Having justification for an action does not necessarily imply what one is doing is actually justice/just. I admit thought that there's a fine line between the two that's for sure.

I mean, I know Arcturus is just trying to pump up some righteous fury into his troops when he claims that, but the part in Desperate Alliance where the Adjutant says that the Confederates arrest anyone trying to resist the Zerg seem well in line with that. I've also found it interesting the Duke wasn't in the briefing for The Trump Card.

I'm not refuting your interpretation but if one were to take the perspective that Duke was in the dark, just following orders/going by the book and not part of some wider Confed conspiracy, the "arresting of all standing militia and taking no action against the Zerg" could possibly also be seen as a life-saving endeavour because they know it's pointless and suicidal to go up against the Zerg. Afterall, the comment comes from the adjutant, a neutral party whose words do not necessarily imply one instance or another. As to Duke not commenting in the The Trump Card, if he was oblivious to the Confed "conspiracy" from the get go, it'd explain his silence because he wouldn't know better to rebut. To him, he's probably buying into Mengsk's rhetoric just like everyone else. You know, talking about all this makes me appreciate how much I liked the room for greyness in Sc1 and how Sc2, in contrast, heavily dissuades it.

Are you sure? Because I "like to go back to this "Overmind in despair" thing" because it's the entire problem, and I only care about Kerrigan insofar as she's the only demonstrated solution.

See, if the Overmind had invaded the Terran world because he couldn't find "the secret location of Aiur" and ventured a guess that maybe only a telepath could find it, or something like that, then I wouldn't care that it doesn't work or get brought up again, because we already have a demonstrated solution in Zeratul's killing of Zasz. This problem is the entire motivation for StarCraft's first arc, and it gets forgotten.

Course I do, you're just conflating me having a counterpoint as me being (willfully or otherwise) dense or misunderstanding. The "Overmind in despair" is a linch-pin for your position and as I've mentioned previously, without the manual, it's actually pretty hard to tell that the Overmind is in despair in the campaign itself. I have also mentioned that the Overmind was never technically in despair. It was on the verge and then it found a possible solution in Humanity - this was even before it actually even captured a speciman with the psionic potential it wanted (Kerrigan). If the Overmind was not in despair after having realised it had a possible solution at hand, it would stand to reason it was not in despair even moreso after having actually acquired it.

The reason why I've painstakingly mentioned all this again is only because your position posits this "despair" as the entire problem. I'm just showing you the possibility that it may not be. The problem you see existing from the manual (which is potentially doubtful as well) doesn't seem to carry on to the campaign since it tends to highlight Kerrigan's importance as more of a morale boost for the Overmind rather than it being a critically vital part in an all-or-nothing type scenario (which the campaign never actually states in regards to Kerrigan's ultimate use).

As a personal aside, I quite like the interpretation of Kerrigan being seemingly important (to the Overmind only that is - it tells you something about the Overmind) and not actually being too important (or over-important as later entries will attest) in Sc1 since it makes her and the story feel less plot-devicey and contrived. Especially so, given that the Overmind campaign itself is weakest in terms of narrative and composition generally compared to the other two. And this is someone who's favourite Sc race is Zerg!

And I assume you'll agree that it stopped its invasion of the Terran worlds because it found what it was looking for? Did it help him fight the Protoss?

Yes and yes. The second yes is because it would've psyhologically helped overcome its supposed despair, if not remaining doubts, at fighting Protoss.

FanaticTemplar

12-05-2015, 04:22 PM

But in that vein, is Mengsk not "just" in continuing to attack and attempt to put down an un-reasonable, sociopathic individual who leads a bunch of murderous creatures that can and has shown willingness to consume/control the whole sector? What you are arguing towards is moral relativity.

No. Kerrigan was defeated and taken by Terran forces. Mengsk does not attack the Zerg Swarm in that moment, he is attacking the Umojan Protectorate. Even if you were to argue against Kerrigan/the Queen of Blades being different people (which is a completely fair position to adopt in this context) she was unambiguously defeated at the end of Wings of Liberty.

Besides, what you are saying refers to a character's motivation (of a sort) in order to do something or another more than anything else. Having justification for an action does not necessarily imply what one is doing is actually justice/just. I admit thought that there's a fine line between the two that's for sure.

This is true, but by the same token, if we remove Kerrigan's justification from the picture, then is not removing Arcturus just?

I'm not refuting your interpretation but if one were to take the perspective that Duke was in the dark, just following orders/going by the book and not part of some wider Confed conspiracy, the "arresting of all standing militia and taking no action against the Zerg" could possibly also be seen as a life-saving endeavour because they know it's pointless and suicidal to go up against the Zerg. Afterall, the comment comes from the adjutant, a neutral party whose words do not necessarily imply one instance or another. As to Duke not commenting in the The Trump Card, if he was oblivious to the Confed "conspiracy" from the get go, it'd explain his silence because he wouldn't know better to rebut. To him, he's probably buying into Mengsk's rhetoric just like everyone else. You know, talking about all this makes me appreciate how much I liked the room for greyness in Sc1 and how Sc2, in contrast, heavily dissuades it.

Oh, I don't think so. Raynor and his men are specifically arrested after being victorious against the Zerg, and the Zerg are attacking Terran settlements so arresting their forces isn't going to save any lives - unarmed humans aren't going to be better at surviving against the Zerg than colonial Marines. I'm honestly not seeing any of the ambiguity you're talking about here :p.

Course I do, you're just conflating me having a counterpoint as me being (willfully or otherwise) dense or misunderstanding. The "Overmind in despair" is a linch-pin for your position and as I've mentioned previously, without the manual, it's actually pretty hard to tell that the Overmind is in despair in the campaign itself. I have also mentioned that the Overmind was never technically in despair. It was on the verge and then it found a possible solution in Humanity - this was even before it actually even captured a speciman with the psionic potential it wanted (Kerrigan). If the Overmind was not in despair after having realised it had a possible solution at hand, it would stand to reason it was not in despair even moreso after having actually acquired it.

But none of that is really important. We can just use [Overmind's motivation for Act 1 of StarCraft] instead of the Overmind's despair if it makes it easier on you, it changes nothing to my position at all.

The reason why I've painstakingly mentioned all this again is only because your position posits this "despair" as the entire problem. I'm just showing you the possibility that it may not be. The problem you see existing from the manual (which is potentially doubtful as well) doesn't seem to carry on to the campaign since it tends to highlight Kerrigan's importance as more of a morale boost for the Overmind rather than it being a critically vital part in an all-or-nothing type scenario (which the campaign never actually states in regards to Kerrigan's ultimate use).

Yet I asked you why the Overmind invaded the Terran worlds, and you agreed that he wanted something there to help him fight the Protoss. And if not for this, then the Overmind has no reason to invade the Terran worlds, and the Protoss have no reason to burn them, and the Sons of Korhal have no means of securing their victory over the Confederacy, and the entire first act of StarCraft cannot happen. Then Tassadar's fleet cannot be broken, and he cannot be attracted to Char and meet with the Dark Templar, nor does he befriend Jim Raynor, nor can Zeratul assassinate Zasz and provide the Overmind with the secret location of Aiur. Basically, the Overmind invading the Terran worlds is fundamental to the story of StarCraft, and the Overmind's motivation for doing so is thus likewise fundamental.

As a personal aside, I quite like the interpretation of Kerrigan being seemingly important (to the Overmind only that is - it tells you something about the Overmind) and not actually being too important (or over-important as later entries will attest) in Sc1 since it makes her and the story feel less plot-devicey and contrived. Especially so, given that the Overmind campaign itself is weakest in terms of narrative and composition generally compared to the other two. And this is someone who's favourite Sc race is Zerg!

Yes, I can see how that would be interesting (though as to how less important Kerrigan was in StarCraft compared to the sequels, notice that even though the Swarm conquered Tarsonis and the Sons of Korhal specifically prevented Confederate escape, somehow there are no Confederate Ghosts to go along with Kerrigan... she is unique, both as a Terran psychic infested by the Overmind, and she is unique by being the only Zerg whose greatness of spirit has been left intact. She is 'Queen of the Zerg'.) but it still contradicts the entire narrative. All of the Zerg''s actions thus far have been about acquiring and securing Kerrigan. And then suddenly she no longer matters, we're just off to invade Aiur? There is no justification. It makes the series seem disjointed, like everything that occurred before Zasz' death was just farting around because the Overmind didn't know where to go. This element of humanity the Overmind felt was necessary in order to defeat the Protoss is the only connector between Rebel Yell and the rest of the game's story. To turn around and act like, without any explanation or justification, this was completely unnecessary breaks the narrative structure of the story.

Yes and yes. The second yes is because it would've psyhologically helped overcome its supposed despair, if not remaining doubts, at fighting Protoss.

And can you support this with material from the game?

Turalyon

12-06-2015, 03:41 AM

No. Kerrigan was defeated and taken by Terran forces. Mengsk does not attack the Zerg Swarm in that moment, he is attacking the Umojan Protectorate. Even if you were to argue against Kerrigan/the Queen of Blades being different people (which is a completely fair position to adopt in this context) she was unambiguously defeated at the end of Wings of Liberty.

It may have been ambiguous to Mengsk Snr. He has no idea or control over what Valerian did or intends with Kerrigan ever since he went rogue and stole half his fleet. We don't get the benefit of having Mengsk's POV so we can't really say whether he is selfish or pragmatic. One can assume that he's the latter since all we've had from him in the past suggests that but people have made assumptions about Kerrigan's character in WoL being different but that is apparently given a hand-wave with a perfunctory "well, she's different/changed now". Afteralll, I've made similar assumptions about the lack of Protoss involvement at the late stages of WoL being due to them being potentially unable to due to their recent crushing defeats but as you corrected me, we can't assume that because we really just don't know and the reason could be anything.

Because of that, it is possibile that from Mengsk's POV, he is just wanting to kill someone who would visit untold destruction of the Terran people (how was he to know that when the Zerg invaded Terran space in WoL was not her actually seeking to rub them all out? Even Raynor was convinced she was "finishing the job") and what he has achieved to get the Terrans to a place powerful than what they ever were under the Confeds. It is pointless attacking Zerg unless you go for their "head". Mind you, I'm not being an apologist for him, but Mengsk has justification, too.

This is true, but by the same token, if we remove Kerrigan's justification from the picture, then is not removing Arcturus just?

Yes, of course, but that's potentially reductive if you just say it like that. How you would go about it and how you would deal with the aftermatch would also factor into it though.

Raynor and his men are specifically arrested after being victorious against the Zerg, and the Zerg are attacking Terran settlements so arresting their forces isn't going to save any lives - unarmed humans aren't going to be better at surviving against the Zerg than colonial Marines.

No, Raynor is only arrested after destroying a Confederate building. To Duke, it being infested at the time is an inconsequential technicality. Otherwise, they would have been arrested after killing numerous Zerglings, Hydralisks and Creep colonies before then. The relocation of civilians and taking no action against the Zerg could be considered a Fabian strategy which relies on avoidance of direct conflict usually because they feel they have control over the situation and have time on their hands.

But none of that is really important. We can just use [Overmind's motivation for Act 1 of StarCraft] instead of the Overmind's despair if it makes it easier on you, it changes nothing to my position at all.

It does though. I'm highlighting that your position advocates the Overmind motivation being a strict "need" (an all or nothing prospect) whereas the alternative interpretation is the Overmind's motivation being a mere "want".

Yet I asked you why the Overmind invaded the Terran worlds, and you agreed that he wanted something there to help him fight the Protoss.

Exactly. I worded it precisely with the word "wanted", not "needed". They are not the same thing. The important thing is that the overall motivation for action is still intact even if the basis of it is a "want" rather than a "need".

though as to how less important Kerrigan was in StarCraft compared to the sequels, notice that even though the Swarm conquered Tarsonis and the Sons of Korhal specifically prevented Confederate escape, somehow there are no Confederate Ghosts to go along with Kerrigan... she is unique, both as a Terran psychic infested by the Overmind, and she is unique by being the only Zerg whose greatness of spirit has been left intact. She is 'Queen of the Zerg'.

I've spent more time than is warranted speculating why this was. I'd fanon the reason that of all Ghosts the Overmind encountered, Kerrigan was probably the only one that accepted infestation and was therefore granted some special priveleges. There was a short story from Blizz titled "The Education of PFC Shane" that somewhat encapsulated what I was thinking long ago about how infestation may require some willingness of the host at some level to work. Unlike resoc'd individuals, I'd assumed Ghosts would have special training and that their psionic powers would engender them to resist the "wiles of the Overmind" such that any Ghosts captured would resist mightily being killed in the process or actively kill themselves before such a thing could even happen. As to why Kerrigan would willingly accept infestation then, well, that's just another layer on the psychology of the character that is worth speculating in another topic.

All of the Zerg''s actions thus far have been about acquiring and securing Kerrigan. And then suddenly she no longer matters, we're just off to invade Aiur? There is no justification. It makes the series seem disjointed, like everything that occurred before Zasz' death was just farting around because the Overmind didn't know where to go. This element of humanity the Overmind felt was necessary in order to defeat the Protoss is the only connector between Rebel Yell and the rest of the game's story. To turn around and act like, without any explanation or justification, this was completely unnecessary breaks the narrative structure of the story.

I agree with you in terms of the narrative structure and disjointedness and how it could (not necessarily should) have been more transparent. It's very abrupt considering that the majority of the campaign focuses on the Chrysalis and Kerrigan's reemergence. The focus on nearly half of the campaign on that certainly does give the impression that Kerrigan should've played a role at the end of the campaign and makes you wonder whether it couldn't have been more concise with the Chrysalis babysitting missions and with Kerrigan in general if she wasn't going to be in the final parts of the campaign anyway. Maybe the campaign would've been more transparent if we followed Kerrigan all the way to the end instead of following the Overmind to Aiur.

That said, I still don't necessarily agree that Kerrigan no longer mattered because it didn't go to Aiur right there and then with the Overmind nor the flipside, that invading Aiur should only be possible if Kerrigan came along at the same time, too. Afterall, the game never stipulates that "defeating the Protoss" means "invading Aiur" and that therefore Kerrigan must also be invading Aiur since she is "the thing that defeats the Protoss". It's not as if Kerrigan is completely sidelined and doing absolutely nothing at all during that time either.

Sure, she would be of help in forming the beachhead on Aiur but she's not strictly needed to do that - the greater entirety of the Swarm can do that just as well. There's also no rule/ suggestion that the Overmind couldn't just want to save Kerrigan as a trump card or to call her in later if it needed either. Also, I don't consider the end of the Overmind campaign being the Zerg having defeated the Protoss since it's all just flowery rhetoric/projected overconfidence on the part of the Overmind. Besides, even though it's going to be forced to do it by going there, the Overmind's aim for going to Aiur is not to wage war and defeat them in open combat but to have ready access to Protoss so that it can assimilate them. It doesn't necessarily need Kerrigan there to capture Protoss.

The Overmind could've told us what it was intending to do and give the low-down on the why and wherefores, but it's not beholden to. I don't mind the "Overmind seemed like it was farting around" thing either since it's a character flaw to be read into that the Overmind is not infallible and is doing what it thinks is the best call at the time.

And can you support this with material from the game?

If you read carefully, I used the word "would've" which would naturally imply that I can't back this up with material from the game. I did that on purpose knowing that I don't have proof but keep in mind that I also did say "supposed despair" as well, which indicates whether there was a such condition (and whether there was therefore a strict need to avoid this condition) really exists at all. You have no proof from the game to support that either.

FanaticTemplar

12-06-2015, 02:06 PM

It may have been ambiguous to Mengsk Snr. He has no idea or control over what Valerian did or intends with Kerrigan ever since he went rogue and stole half his fleet. We don't get the benefit of having Mengsk's POV so we can't really say whether he is selfish or pragmatic. One can assume that he's the latter since all we've had from him in the past suggests that but people have made assumptions about Kerrigan's character in WoL being different but that is apparently given a hand-wave with a perfunctory "well, she's different/changed now". Afteralll, I've made similar assumptions about the lack of Protoss involvement at the late stages of WoL being due to them being potentially unable to due to their recent crushing defeats but as you corrected me, we can't assume that because we really just don't know and the reason could be anything.

Because of that, it is possibile that from Mengsk's POV, he is just wanting to kill someone who would visit untold destruction of the Terran people (how was he to know that when the Zerg invaded Terran space in WoL was not her actually seeking to rub them all out? Even Raynor was convinced she was "finishing the job") and what he has achieved to get the Terrans to a place powerful than what they ever were under the Confeds. It is pointless attacking Zerg unless you go for their "head". Mind you, I'm not being an apologist for him, but Mengsk has justification, too.

I would certainly not assume that Mengsk is 'pragmatic', not at all. Never mind the fact that I already disagreed with that assessment back in StarCraft, Mengsk's irrational obsession with Raynor should be evidence enough for that. But anyway, even if we followed your hypothetical, that doesn't change anything. The Dominion controls Char at this point. Kerrigan herself is isolated from the Swarm and being held in a Terran cell under Terran watch. Mengsk is not fighting Zerg in that attack, he's fighting Umojans and Raiders and Valerian's men. The Swarm invasion of Wings of Liberty has been repelled, Kerrigan has been defeated, the Dominion has won.

Yes, of course, but that's potentially reductive if you just say it like that. How you would go about it and how you would deal with the aftermatch would also factor into it though.

Which is why I asked if there was any evidence of her targeting civilians. She also directly cooperated with Valerian to ensure that the people of the Dominion would be able to rebuild from the invasion. Again, this is above and beyond what other wars in the series have provided.

No, Raynor is only arrested after destroying a Confederate building. To Duke, it being infested at the time is an inconsequential technicality. Otherwise, they would have been arrested after killing numerous Zerglings, Hydralisks and Creep colonies before then. The relocation of civilians and taking no action against the Zerg could be considered a Fabian strategy which relies on avoidance of direct conflict usually because they feel they have control over the situation and have time on their hands.

They arrested Raynor after her destroyed the infested Command Center because that provided them with a pretext. There is a blatant discrepancy between how quickly they respond when it comes to arresting Terrans who are defending themselves, compared to how they never respond when Terran settlements are being attacked by the Zerg. The Confederates never showed up to help Backwater Station, they never showed up to help us in Desperate Alliance, they never show up to aid any of the sixteen other stations either. We are flat out told that they have avoided action against the Zerg. Again, StarCraft isn't subtle.

It does though. I'm highlighting that your position advocates the Overmind motivation being a strict "need" (an all or nothing prospect) whereas the alternative interpretation is the Overmind's motivation being a mere "want".

It doesn't though. My position is what the Overmind "did", not what he "needs" or "wants". He did invade the Terran worlds.

I've spent more time than is warranted speculating why this was. I'd fanon the reason that of all Ghosts the Overmind encountered, Kerrigan was probably the only one that accepted infestation and was therefore granted some special priveleges. There was a short story from Blizz titled "The Education of PFC Shane" that somewhat encapsulated what I was thinking long ago about how infestation may require some willingness of the host at some level to work. Unlike resoc'd individuals, I'd assumed Ghosts would have special training and that their psionic powers would engender them to resist the "wiles of the Overmind" such that any Ghosts captured would resist mightily being killed in the process or actively kill themselves before such a thing could even happen. As to why Kerrigan would willingly accept infestation then, well, that's just another layer on the psychology of the character that is worth speculating in another topic.

Interesting theory, but I can't agree. Kerrigan instinctively reached out to Arcturus and Raynor telepathically while she was in the chrysalis. Her conversation with Raynor makes it plain that this was because she was different then from who she is now, someone who likes being Zerg.

That said, I still don't necessarily agree that Kerrigan no longer mattered because it didn't go to Aiur right there and then with the Overmind nor the flipside, that invading Aiur should only be possible if Kerrigan came along at the same time, too. Afterall, the game never stipulates that "defeating the Protoss" means "invading Aiur" and that therefore Kerrigan must also be invading Aiur since she is "the thing that defeats the Protoss". It's not as if Kerrigan is completely sidelined and doing absolutely nothing at all during that time either.

Sure, she would be of help in forming the beachhead on Aiur but she's not strictly needed to do that - the greater entirety of the Swarm can do that just as well. There's also no rule/ suggestion that the Overmind couldn't just want to save Kerrigan as a trump card or to call her in later if it needed either. Also, I don't consider the end of the Overmind campaign being the Zerg having defeated the Protoss since it's all just flowery rhetoric/projected overconfidence on the part of the Overmind. Besides, even though it's going to be forced to do it by going there, the Overmind's aim for going to Aiur is not to wage war and defeat them in open combat but to have ready access to Protoss so that it can assimilate them. It doesn't necessarily need Kerrigan there to capture Protoss.

Yeah, but I'm not arguing any of that.

The Overmind could've told us what it was intending to do and give the low-down on the why and wherefores, but it's not beholden to.

No, but the writers are beholden to tie their story together. This isn't some detail to be left to fan interpretation, this is the core of the main narrative. The entire first half of the story is driven by this motivation, and you can't just forget it without explanation or justification.

If you read carefully, I used the word "would've" which would naturally imply that I can't back this up with material from the game. I did that on purpose knowing that I don't have proof but keep in mind that I also did say "supposed despair" as well, which indicates whether there was a such condition (and whether there was therefore a strict need to avoid this condition) really exists at all. You have no proof from the game to support that either.

But I do have proof from the games that the Overmind sent the Zerg to the Terran world looking for psionically gifted humans, and that this invasion is what sets every storyline in motion, and yet there is nothing justifying that invasion within the context of the Overmind's demonstrated goals.

Turalyon

12-07-2015, 08:11 AM

I would certainly not assume that Mengsk is 'pragmatic', not at all. Never mind the fact that I already disagreed with that assessment back in StarCraft, Mengsk's irrational obsession with Raynor should be evidence enough for that.

Mengsk's irrational obsession with Raynor? Don't you mean the other way round? Afterall, Raynor is the one waging war against him as a means to displace his own anger and inadequacy at not being to do anything about Kerrigan.

Regardless, Mengsk has just a flimsy justification for attacking Kerrigan as Kerrigan does attacking the Dominion head on with monsters just to kill one man. At least with Mengsk were not being asked to think of his justification as also being righteous.

The Swarm invasion of Wings of Liberty has been repelled, Kerrigan has been defeated, the Dominion has won.

Just like how the Protoss won in Sc1? :p

Anyways, the Dominion did win but only under Valerian who has gone rogue. Not only as he absconded with half his fleet, he's aligned with highly resourceful threats in the form of a "terrorist" that has been causing trouble that not even trillions of currency can remedy and now, an entity who may still potentially be able to control monsters; both of which have personal grudges against him. Mengsk can never be too sure.

Which is why I asked if there was any evidence of her targeting civilians.

Judgement of her moral fibre in warfare is not solely determined by specific actions against civilians, it can also be due to inaction/lack of due care regarding potential loss in civilians. Afterall, she engages in a "just" war by obtaining a weapon of mass and indiscriminate destruction first and foremost above anything else. That's a pretty slippery slope. Luckily there were people who could conveniently lecture her on the morality of her actions so she take appropriate action but only after the war was already initiated. It's like "Wow, I never knew that killing people that are protecting the only man I really want to kill is a bad thing up until now". It's also lucky that she took those lectures to heart whereas she could have easily resumed having no compunctions (or didn't bother to think about it) like when she first initiated the war. :p

They arrested Raynor after her destroyed the infested Command Center because that provided them with a pretext. There is a blatant discrepancy between how quickly they respond when it comes to arresting Terrans who are defending themselves, compared to how they never respond when Terran settlements are being attacked by the Zerg. The Confederates never showed up to help Backwater Station, they never showed up to help us in Desperate Alliance, they never show up to aid any of the sixteen other stations either. We are flat out told that they have avoided action against the Zerg. Again, StarCraft isn't subtle.

You've forgotten one blatant discrepancy though in all this. If the Confeds are so "active" in taking no action against the Zerg and just want to see what happens, why are they even there/show up at all/deign to make a presence? It can't just be for keeping up appearances to locals since I'd assume they'd expect everyone on those planets with Zerg to be nommed up by them anyway. Also, there is no need to move/relocate colonists (or allocate someone to help do such a thing) into the path of the Zerg since the Zerg will find them soon enough and that the Confeds are the ones who have Psi Emitter tech which means they can direct the Zerg in a fashion afterall. Why even bother arresting the local standing forces if they want to observe the Zerg kill people? Wouldn't that be more interesting/informative to watch them in action against the Zerg? It's not as if they can really stop them. Either way, something doesn't add up.

My position is what the Overmind "did", not what he "needs" or "wants". He did invade the Terran worlds.

Seems to me like you're self-defeating your own position. If the specifics of the motivation doesn't matter and that the going to Aiur without Kerrigan doesn't matter, then there is no problem. All we have then, is the Overmind did invade Terran worlds to get something to fight Protoss, found it and then used it to fight Protoss.

Interesting theory, but I can't agree. Kerrigan instinctively reached out to Arcturus and Raynor telepathically while she was in the chrysalis. Her conversation with Raynor makes it plain that this was because she was different then from who she is now, someone who likes being Zerg.

When I said accepted infestation, I meant it as she eventually succumbed/accepted infestation as the process was going on (like it did in the short story) not immediately before being placed in a chrysalis. She was probably still resisting somewhat which lead to those psychic emanations. When she finally accepted it, she became a different person in the way how some gain and understand a whole different perspective on their life. Like I said, it's all fanon.

The entire first half of the story is driven by this motivation, and you can't just forget it without explanation or justification.

But didn't you just say the specifics of the motivation are irrelevant? If so, there is no need for explanation or justification. Once again in general terms, the Overmind invaded Terran worlds to get a weapon to fight Protoss. It succeeded and proceeded to use it against Protoss. That's it. Where or when doesn't matter since you said you're not concerned about the fact that the Overmind is invading Aiur or any other locale specifically.

But I do have proof from the games that the Overmind sent the Zerg to the Terran world looking for psionically gifted humans, and that this invasion is what sets every storyline in motion, and yet there is nothing justifying that invasion within the context of the Overmind's demonstrated goals.

I thought it didn't matter to you that the Overmind invaded Aiur specifically. In that context, Kerrigan is attacking some Protoss whilst the Overmind is just attacking some other Protoss elsewhere. There is no rule that the Overmind cannot fight Protoss at all on it's own without Kerrigan.

FanaticTemplar

12-07-2015, 09:27 PM

Mengsk's irrational obsession with Raynor?

We're talking about a guy who has a speech that goes "Our long nightmare is over, this rebel guy is dead, Oh, and also, in other news the Zerg are defeated." And the first news broadcast from Wings of Liberty is likewise hilarious, with the military despot being accused of not spending enough of the public's money on the military he uses to oppress them because he's too fixated on Raynor. Honestly you'd expect those two to have switched their lines.

Regardless, Mengsk has just a flimsy justification for attacking Kerrigan as Kerrigan does attacking the Dominion head on with monsters just to kill one man. At least with Mengsk were not being asked to think of his justification as also being righteous.

Your idea of morality involves monstrous despots as inviolate because they have people who will defend them?

Just like how the Protoss won in Sc1? :p

Anyways, the Dominion did win but only under Valerian who has gone rogue. Not only as he absconded with half his fleet, he's aligned with highly resourceful threats in the form of a "terrorist" that has been causing trouble that not even trillions of currency can remedy and now, an entity who may still potentially be able to control monsters; both of which have personal grudges against him. Mengsk can never be too sure.

I have no idea where you're going with this.

Judgement of her moral fibre in warfare is not solely determined by specific actions against civilians, it can also be due to inaction/lack of due care regarding potential loss in civilians. Afterall, she engages in a "just" war by obtaining a weapon of mass and indiscriminate destruction first and foremost above anything else. That's a pretty slippery slope. Luckily there were people who could conveniently lecture her on the morality of her actions so she take appropriate action but only after the war was already initiated. It's like "Wow, I never knew that killing people that are protecting the only man I really want to kill is a bad thing up until now". It's also lucky that she took those lectures to heart whereas she could have easily resumed having no compunctions (or didn't bother to think about it) like when she first initiated the war. :p

Which, again, makes her better than pretty much everyone else in the series. I hope you remember my position here.

You've forgotten one blatant discrepancy though in all this. If the Confeds are so "active" in taking no action against the Zerg and just want to see what happens, why are they even there/show up at all/deign to make a presence? It can't just be for keeping up appearances to locals since I'd assume they'd expect everyone on those planets with Zerg to be nommed up by them anyway. Also, there is no need to move/relocate colonists (or allocate someone to help do such a thing) into the path of the Zerg since the Zerg will find them soon enough and that the Confeds are the ones who have Psi Emitter tech which means they can direct the Zerg in a fashion afterall. Why even bother arresting the local standing forces if they want to observe the Zerg kill people? Wouldn't that be more interesting/informative to watch them in action against the Zerg? It's not as if they can really stop them. Either way, something doesn't add up.

It would seem to me that the Confederates didn't want the Zerg wiped out before the infestation had taken hold. As we see in Backwater Station, it's apparently possible to push back the Zerg at that early stage.

Seems to me like you're self-defeating your own position. If the specifics of the motivation doesn't matter and that the going to Aiur without Kerrigan doesn't matter, then there is no problem. All we have then, is the Overmind did invade Terran worlds to get something to fight Protoss, found it and then used it to fight Protoss.

But didn't you just say the specifics of the motivation are irrelevant? If so, there is no need for explanation or justification. Once again in general terms, the Overmind invaded Terran worlds to get a weapon to fight Protoss. It succeeded and proceeded to use it against Protoss. That's it. Where or when doesn't matter since you said you're not concerned about the fact that the Overmind is invading Aiur or any other locale specifically.

I thought it didn't matter to you that the Overmind invaded Aiur specifically. In that context, Kerrigan is attacking some Protoss whilst the Overmind is just attacking some other Protoss elsewhere. There is no rule that the Overmind cannot fight Protoss at all on it's own without Kerrigan.

That's only viable if you think that the Overmind believed the Protoss to be essentially defeated by the time it got to Aiur, and I'd need you to provide something from the actual game to confirm that, since it's the game's main narrative.

When I said accepted infestation, I meant it as she eventually succumbed/accepted infestation as the process was going on (like it did in the short story) not immediately before being placed in a chrysalis. She was probably still resisting somewhat which lead to those psychic emanations. When she finally accepted it, she became a different person in the way how some gain and understand a whole different perspective on their life. Like I said, it's all fanon.

Eh, it's not like I have a counter-suggestion, either.

DarthYam

12-08-2015, 01:24 AM

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Fridge/StarcraftIILegacyOfTheVoid

Honestly some of the observations make sense. Also, I don't necessarily mind the Khala being corrupt. That kind of mental link would be a privacy nightmare and ultimately helped the protoss become stagnant and unwilling to grow.

Hell even Kerrigan becoming Xel'naga was fine. Purity of Form just means has a buttfucking amount of power psionic, and Kerrigan fulfilled that even as a human. Purity of essence as well because she was primal zerg, which evolved outside of Amon. The humans were powerful without Amon's interference so in a perverse way it makes sense.

ragnarok

12-08-2015, 03:44 AM

Turalyon

12-08-2015, 05:31 AM

We're talking about a guy who has a speech that goes "Our long nightmare is over, this rebel guy is dead, Oh, and also, in other news the Zerg are defeated." And the first news broadcast from Wings of Liberty is likewise hilarious, with the military despot being accused of not spending enough of the public's money on the military he uses to oppress them because he's too fixated on Raynor. Honestly you'd expect those two to have switched their lines.

A despot is considered obsessed because they're taking action to contain and mitigate damage designed to weaken their rule? Ok, sure why not?Nice to know that two incidences count as an obsession though. :p

Anyways, Mengsk wouldn't have to waste all his money on Raynor if he just went away and stopped harrassing the Dominion all the time (or was halfways competent in capturing him in the first place).

Your idea of morality involves monstrous despots as inviolate because they have people who will defend them?

Never said or implied that. I'm not even talking about morality there, I was talking about justification. You're actually talking about justification as well (in regards to Kerrigan) and I'm highlighting that. There's Mengsk's justification for action and there's Kerrigan's justifications for action. That said, justifications are not always righteous, regardless of the story having authorial intrusion to suggest it is so.

I have no idea where you're going with this.

The Dominion "winning" is like the Protoss "winning" at the end of Sc1 (ie: they didn't really win much if at all). Mengsk is not a man who would rest on his laurels when there are still threats out there like Kerrigan (he's apparently obsessed with Raynor afterall, so why not Kerrigan?). He knows that the Zerg are only really quelled when their leaders are dead and gone but he also knows Kerrigan is still alive and can still control the Zerg. He knows she is resourceful and knows not to let his guard down following what happened in BW after being misled and being defeated despite outnumbering her one Zerg army.

Which, again, makes her better than pretty much everyone else in the series.

Even Tassadar? At least he has the excuse of "I was just following orders" initially (and even allowed the Terrans some time to evacuate before glassing their worlds) and still came about on his own accord after reflecting on his own actions. Kerrigan just goes about unleashing the Zerg on any planet with a Dominion presence (which would be almost all of them since the Terrans are more or less unified at that point), kills Protoss unncessarily and only considered changing the way she does things when called out on it/pleaded with by using the morality pet that is Raynor after the fact. Like I said, "lucky" there was someone to call her out and that Raynor was actually still alive, otherwise who knows what would've happened.

It would seem to me that the Confederates didn't want the Zerg wiped out before the infestation had taken hold. As we see in Backwater Station, it's apparently possible to push back the Zerg at that early stage.

Like I said, if the Confeds weren't involved, the planets that were invaded by the Zerg wouldn't have known there was a danger to begin with and would've been taken by surprise anyway. They are supposed to be weak fringe colonies afterall.

That's only viable if you think that the Overmind believed the Protoss to be essentially defeated by the time it got to Aiur, and I'd need you to provide something from the actual game to confirm that, since it's the game's main narrative.

I have nothing to prove though since you're trying to filter this perspective through your own lens. I'm not the one equating going to Aiur as the Protoss being defeated or that Kerrigan fighting Protoss must equal defeating all the Protoss for all time. Like I said "there is no rule that the Overmind cannot fight Protoss at all on it's own without Kerrigan".

FanaticTemplar

12-08-2015, 09:52 PM

A despot is considered obsessed because they're taking action to contain and mitigate damage designed to weaken their rule? Ok, sure why not?Nice to know that two incidences count as an obsession though. :p

Anyways, Mengsk wouldn't have to waste all his money on Raynor if he just went away and stopped harrassing the Dominion all the time (or was halfways competent in capturing him in the first place).

You're arguing that mengsk considers Raynor to be a greater threat than the Zerg because he's 'pragmatic'?

Never said or implied that. I'm not even talking about morality there, I was talking about justification. You're actually talking about justification as well (in regards to Kerrigan) and I'm highlighting that. There's Mengsk's justification for action and there's Kerrigan's justifications for action. That said, justifications are not always righteous, regardless of the story having authorial intrusion to suggest it is so.

Very well then, I don't feel that you've justified Mengsk attacking a Umojan station in any way that compares to Kerrigan's justification for attacking Mengsk. What it looked like, was that you were attempting to divert away from that topic with the whole "attacking the Dominion head on with monsters just to kill one man" rhetoric.

The Dominion "winning" is like the Protoss "winning" at the end of Sc1 (ie: they didn't really win much if at all). Mengsk is not a man who would rest on his laurels when there are still threats out there like Kerrigan (he's apparently obsessed with Raynor afterall, so why not Kerrigan?). He knows that the Zerg are only really quelled when their leaders are dead and gone but he also knows Kerrigan is still alive and can still control the Zerg. He knows she is resourceful and knows not to let his guard down following what happened in BW after being misled and being defeated despite outnumbering her one Zerg army.

That is his motivation, but it is not a justification. Also the Dominion 'winning' is not like the Protoss 'winning' in that the latter is clearly a retcon :p.

Even Tassadar? At least he has the excuse of "I was just following orders" initially (and even allowed the Terrans some time to evacuate before glassing their worlds) and still came about on his own accord after reflecting on his own actions. Kerrigan just goes about unleashing the Zerg on any planet with a Dominion presence (which would be almost all of them since the Terrans are more or less unified at that point), kills Protoss unncessarily and only considered changing the way she does things when called out on it/pleaded with by using the morality pet that is Raynor after the fact. Like I said, "lucky" there was someone to call her out and that Raynor was actually still alive, otherwise who knows what would've happened.

Nope, not Tassadar. When I said 'pretty much everyone' that meant 'almost everyone'. If that's not how that figure of speech works, you have my apology.

As to her "only considering changing her ways" because of Raynor, that's what I'd like you to substantiate. I still have no evidence of her targeting anything other than military targets against the Dominion, we know that she spared even Dominion soldiers on Char (I have no idea what this ridiculous notion that mentioning Raynor somehow invalidates her actions is all about) and she agrees to take a major handicap to minimise the risks to Korhal civilians of getting caught in the crossfire.

Again, this makes her look bad compared to whom, exactly?

Like I said, if the Confeds weren't involved, the planets that were invaded by the Zerg wouldn't have known there was a danger to begin with and would've been taken by surprise anyway. They are supposed to be weak fringe colonies afterall.

How do you figure? Raynor and his militia were all locals.

I have nothing to prove though since you're trying to filter this perspective through your own lens. I'm not the one equating going to Aiur as the Protoss being defeated or that Kerrigan fighting Protoss must equal defeating all the Protoss for all time. Like I said "there is no rule that the Overmind cannot fight Protoss at all on it's own without Kerrigan".

You're obfuscating. I never equated Kerrigan going to Aiur as the Protoss being defeated. I never equated Kerrigan fighting the Protoss as defeating the Protoss for all time.

You said yourself that the Overmind went to the Terran worlds to get psionic potential to fight the Protoss, and now you're trying to pass that off as Kerrigan hunting the Dark Templar because they're Protoss, as though I would be satisfied with a semantic technicality. But this isn't about semantics, it's about plot.

The Overmind's goal was the assimilation of the Protoss.
The Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to achieve that goal.
Despite driving the first act of the game, this is never brought up again, either to confirm, to deny, to clarify or to amend.

And the Dark Templar are irrelevant. The Overmind did not know about them. They are an additional threat. If Kerrigan is used to neutralise the additional threat, then all that remains is the original threat. The threat that the Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to deal with.

Turalyon

12-09-2015, 05:16 AM

You're arguing that mengsk considers Raynor to be a greater threat than the Zerg because he's 'pragmatic'?

What? Where did I say that? All I did was poke fun at the thought of Mengsk being "obsessed" with Raynor since he's the only real threat to him at that time and it's not as if the Zerg were doing anything to stop him greatly improving the lot of the Terrans in general between BW and SC2.

Very well then, I don't feel that you've justified Mengsk attacking a Umojan station in any way that compares to Kerrigan's justification for attacking Mengsk.

It's a matter of perspective. Mengsk is not attacking a Umojan station as his main goal, he's attacking Kerrigan. The Umojans are just in the way, much like how the Dominion is just in the way of Kerrigan, whose main goal is to kill Mengsk.

That is his motivation, but it is not a justification.

That's a hairsplit. There's no justification in Kerrigan's goal of killing Mensk either but it is largely motivated by revenge. Indeed, she even outright states she "justifies nothing" at one point.

Nope, not Tassadar. When I said 'pretty much everyone' that meant 'almost everyone'.

It was hard to tell since when I tried to compare that difference between Tassadar and Kerrigan, you shifted to comparing Mengsk and Kerrigan.

I still have no evidence of her targeting anything other than military targets against the Dominion

When the "military target" is a whole entire planet, it brings into the question of morally acceptable collateral damage. Like I said before, "just" military actions have to factor that in. It clearly wasn't a factor worth considering for Kerrigan. It's like using a drone to kill a terrorist, who happens to be hiding in a school and then defending that action by saying "well, I was targeting only the military target so everything's OK!".

As to her "only considering changing her ways" because of Raynor, that's what I'd like you to substantiate....we know that she spared even Dominion soldiers on Char (I have no idea what this ridiculous notion that mentioning Raynor somehow invalidates her actions is all about) and she agrees to take a major handicap to minimise the risks to Korhal civilians of getting caught in the crossfire.

She only let's the Dominion soldiers go after being chastised by Warfield about how ashamed Raynor would be if he were still here to see her do this. Were it not for that, she would've outright slew them all! Raynor is being invoked here as a morality pet for Kerrigan and it worked. As to the Korhal thing, this minimising of civilian casualties occurs after Raynor himself admonishes her after seeing her being infested and ugly again (what a superficial jerk :p) after being rescued. Since Kerrigan only has a conscience when Raynor is around and alive to cast judgements on her, she acts like Raynor would on Korhal because otherwise Raynor's judgements of her will be justified if she doesn't. One only has to consider what would've happened had Raynor been actually killed - I certainly wouldn't expect her to save any civilians that's for sure. That's partially why her characterisation is so terrible and lacking in agecny in HotS since it basically says "oh noes, my value as a person is solely dependent on how this one person thinks of me!"

Again, this makes her look bad compared to whom, exactly?

It still stands that her actions are morally questionable in isolation. That's the point. I'm not comparing it to anything/anyone else unless I specify otherwise.

How do you figure? Raynor and his militia were all locals.

How do I figure what? That they're supposedly weak fringe colonies? How does Raynor factor into it? You think the Confeds expect Raynor to be the miliary prodigy (which he apparently is but only becomes attributed to him later) at that point in time? You expecting them to think he's the protagonist of some piece of fiction and will singlehandely destroy all the Zerg that invade Mar Sara? :p

You said yourself that the Overmind went to the Terran worlds to get psionic potential to fight the Protoss, and now you're trying to pass that off as Kerrigan hunting the Dark Templar because they're Protoss, as though I would be satisfied with a semantic technicality.

I'm not passing off anything. You can't even refute that Kerrigan (the psionic potential to fight Protoss - the very purpose she is actually fulfilling as set by the Overmind) is not fighting Protoss.

The Overmind's goal was the assimilation of the Protoss.
The Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to achieve that goal.

Incorrect. The Overmind did not feel it needed for Kerrigan to achieve the goal of assimilating Protoss, she was only needed to fight Protoss. Sure, fighting the Protoss effectively would potentially lead to the ultimate goal of assimilating the Protoss being realised but it is not a singular myopic route. It never says Kerrigan must be present in order to assimilate Protoss.

And the Dark Templar are irrelevant. The Overmind did not know about them. They are an additional threat. If Kerrigan is used to neutralise the additional threat, then all that remains is the original threat. The threat that the Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to deal with.

I've stopped talking about Dark Templar specifically many posts ago in the interests of trying to counter your position by adopting it - don't know why you keep bringing them up since I know it's a bugbear of yours with this topic of conversation. As far as I'm concerned the DT and Tassadar are just "Protoss in general" for the purposes of this position I'm putting forward.

FanaticTemplar

12-09-2015, 07:35 PM

What? Where did I say that? All I did was poke fun at the thought of Mengsk being "obsessed" with Raynor since he's the only real threat to him at that time and it's not as if the Zerg were doing anything to stop him greatly improving the lot of the Terrans in general between BW and SC2.

It's not like the Zerg were doing anything to hinder him before he attacked the Umojan station either. In fact, he'd finally started to clear out Char itself.

It's a matter of perspective. Mengsk is not attacking a Umojan station as his main goal, he's attacking Kerrigan. The Umojans are just in the way, much like how the Dominion is just in the way of Kerrigan, whose main goal is to kill Mengsk.

I understand that. But I don't see how that pertains. Kerrigan was an Umojan prisoner there, separated and deprived of the Swarm. Mengsk is still Emperor of the Terran Dominion. Mengsk was still attacking an independent nation holding that prisoner, while Kerrigan was attacking Mengsk's Dominion. And the Umojans conspiring with Dominion rebels is not equivalent justification for war to the atrocities Mengsk has committed.

That's a hairsplit. There's no justification in Kerrigan's goal of killing Mensk either but it is largely motivated by revenge. Indeed, she even outright states she "justifies nothing" at one point.

She's not, I am. And you are. You're the one who made this about 'just war', remember?

It was hard to tell since when I tried to compare that difference between Tassadar and Kerrigan, you shifted to comparing Mengsk and Kerrigan.

What do you want to compare regarding Kerrigan and Tassadar? I'm not sure if Tassadar has earned redemption, but I know that Kerrigan has not.

When the "military target" is a whole entire planet, it brings into the question of morally acceptable collateral damage. Like I said before, "just" military actions have to factor that in. It clearly wasn't a factor worth considering for Kerrigan. It's like using a drone to kill a terrorist, who happens to be hiding in a school and then defending that action by saying "well, I was targeting only the military target so everything's OK!".

I agree if you can demonstrate a civilian population on those worlds.

She only let's the Dominion soldiers go after being chastised by Warfield about how ashamed Raynor would be if he were still here to see her do this. Were it not for that, she would've outright slew them all! Raynor is being invoked here as a morality pet for Kerrigan and it worked. As to the Korhal thing, this minimising of civilian casualties occurs after Raynor himself admonishes her after seeing her being infested and ugly again (what a superficial jerk :p) after being rescued. Since Kerrigan only has a conscience when Raynor is around and alive to cast judgements on her, she acts like Raynor would on Korhal because otherwise Raynor's judgements of her will be justified if she doesn't. One only has to consider what would've happened had Raynor been actually killed - I certainly wouldn't expect her to save any civilians that's for sure. That's partially why her characterisation is so terrible and lacking in agecny in HotS since it basically says "oh noes, my value as a person is solely dependent on how this one person thinks of me!"

You keep repeating this "doing good things doesn't count if you think of Raynor while doing it!" as though this holds some kind of logic, but it doesn't. Moral frameworks aren't built in a vacuum. If someone does good things out of a rational examination of the outcomes of possible choices, that doesn't make them evil. If someone does good things because it's their religious belief to do so, that doesn't make them evil. If someone does good things because they were inspired to do good by their dead lover, that doesn't make them evil. And she takes extra care of civilians on Korhal because, as far as I know, it's the only time she's attacked a Dominion target with a significant civilian population. Incidentally, she first contacts Valerian about helping the population on Korhal of her own accord, and Raynor is explicitly not there. But hey, Raynor exists, therefore all good things are evil.

Oh, and she wasn't "acting like Raynor would on Korhal". We've seen Raynor attack Augustgrad before in Queen of Blades and no such extraordinary precautions were taken.

It still stands that her actions are morally questionable in isolation. That's the point. I'm not comparing it to anything/anyone else unless I specify otherwise.

If you want to discuss morality without context, you must first establish an objective and absolute system of morality. Good luck with that.

How do I figure what? That they're supposedly weak fringe colonies? How does Raynor factor into it? You think the Confeds expect Raynor to be the miliary prodigy (which he apparently is but only becomes attributed to him later) at that point in time? You expecting them to think he's the protagonist of some piece of fiction and will singlehandely destroy all the Zerg that invade Mar Sara? :p

Raynor and his militia demonstrably fight back the invasion and make progress against the Zerg. Therefore, why would the Confederates assume that the colonials would've been easily taken?

I'm not passing off anything. You can't even refute that Kerrigan (the psionic potential to fight Protoss - the very purpose she is actually fulfilling as set by the Overmind) is not fighting Protoss.

Why would I refute it? Why would I care?

This is what I mean by semantic nonesense. You're acting like there's some weird, absolute and specifically worded prophecy that says that Kerrigan has to fight something called 'Protoss'. There is not. The Overmind wanted it to fight Protoss because fighting Protoss was necessary to achieve its goal.

Incorrect. The Overmind did not feel it needed for Kerrigan to achieve the goal of assimilating Protoss, she was only needed to fight Protoss. Sure, fighting the Protoss effectively would potentially lead to the ultimate goal of assimilating the Protoss being realised but it is not a singular myopic route. It never says Kerrigan must be present in order to assimilate Protoss.

Leaving aside that the manual clearly states that it did, why did it not invade Aiur instead of dicking around in the Terran worlds, suffering considerable losses to purged worlds, and alerting the Protoss to its presence and means? Did it feel that right before the final dungeon was the best time to go around finishing all those sidequests it had accumulated? Why didn't it go away to assimilate other species and return later since clearly it didn't actually care about invading Aiur that much? Why did it want Kerrigan to fight "a thing that could be called Protoss" in the first place?

I've stopped talking about Dark Templar specifically many posts ago in the interests of trying to counter your position by adopting it - don't know why you keep bringing them up since I know it's a bugbear of yours with this topic of conversation. As far as I'm concerned the DT and Tassadar are just "Protoss in general" for the purposes of this position I'm putting forward.

No you haven't. You can call them 'Tassadar and the Dark Templar' or you can call them 'Protoss in general' all you wish, that doesn't change who they are. And they're all you talk about.

Turalyon

12-10-2015, 08:21 AM

It's not like the Zerg were doing anything to hinder him before he attacked the Umojan station either.

Yeah, by attacking and killing Kerrigan he's going to ensure the Zerg will keep on doing nothing to hinder him.

I understand that. But I don't see how that pertains. Kerrigan was an Umojan prisoner there, separated and deprived of the Swarm. Mengsk is still Emperor of the Terran Dominion. Mengsk was still attacking an independent nation holding that prisoner, while Kerrigan was attacking Mengsk's Dominion. And the Umojans conspiring with Dominion rebels is not equivalent justification for war to the atrocities Mengsk has committed.

Mengsk would still feel justified to attack from his POV. His son is conspiring against him and has enlisted the "terrorist" Raynor in his cause and now Kerrigan, who is still capable of wielding the power of the Zerg. All three are powerful enemies of the state, are a threat to the current established status quo and have a direct beef with him. That they all have now enlisted with a nation that is anti-Dominion and has a history of conflict with the Dominion is icing on the cake. Sure, he's attacking something just on the basis of pure association I hear you say, but Kerrigan attacks the Dominion forces just because of their association with Mengsk.

What do you want to compare regarding Kerrigan and Tassadar?

Dont' worry about it, was just trying to clear something up.

I agree if you can demonstrate a civilian population on those worlds.

Only if you can demonstrate that there wasn't a civilian population on those worlds. ;)

You keep repeating this "doing good things doesn't count if you think of Raynor while doing it!" as though this holds some kind of logic, but it doesn't.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Kerrigan isn't inherently "good" and/or didn't have "good" intentions with regards to her initial actions, not that she can't be good or that any good actions she does do are still evil. Without any further reference to Raynor aside from Mengsk's announcement that Raynor was executed throughout HotS, Kerrigan would have not have left Warfield's men go or considered sparing civilians as per her original intent.

Raynor and his militia demonstrably fight back the invasion and make progress against the Zerg.

Yes, and you expected the Confeds to expect that a nobody and their militia could stop a force they know is dangerous enough to give their own armies pause in advance of it (Raynor being able to beat back Zerg and defeat them wholesale forever more) actually happening?

This is what I mean by semantic nonesense. You're acting like there's some weird, absolute and specifically worded prophecy that says that Kerrigan has to fight something called 'Protoss'. There is not. The Overmind wanted it to fight Protoss because fighting Protoss was necessary to achieve its goal.

You're not getting it. If Kerrigan fighting the Protoss is necessary to achieve the Overminds goal and Kerrigan is fighting the Protoss, it therefore means the Overmind is achieving its goal (which is what we have). Hence, if you're saying the Overmind is not achieving its goal then that means Kerrigan is not fighting Protoss - which is patently not true. It's either that or you're saying the Overmind is achieving its goal but Kerrigan is not fighting Protoss - which is patently not true. That's why your position is confusing.

Leaving aside that the manual clearly states that it did, why did it not invade Aiur instead of dicking around in the Terran worlds, suffering considerable losses to purged worlds, and alerting the Protoss to its presence and means? Did it feel that right before the final dungeon was the best time to go around finishing all those sidequests it had accumulated? Why didn't it go away to assimilate other species and return later since clearly it didn't actually care about invading Aiur that much? Why did it want Kerrigan to fight "a thing that could be called Protoss" in the first place?

Because it wanted a counter to the Protoss' power. It felt that once it had this counter, it'd be unstoppable. Lo and behold, this is its actual mindset for rest of the campaign once Kerrigan is reborn into the Swarm.

No you haven't. You can call them 'Tassadar and the Dark Templar' or you can call them 'Protoss in general' all you wish, that doesn't change who they are. And they're all you talk about.

Given that the Overminds goal revolves around Protoss, I can't exactly not talk about them can I? And I'm the one that's accused of obfuscation....

FanaticTemplar

12-10-2015, 11:40 AM

Yeah, by attacking and killing Kerrigan he's going to ensure the Zerg will keep on doing nothing to hinder him.

You mean like the Overmind's death ensured that the Zerg were never a hindrance again?

Mengsk would still feel justified to attack from his POV. His son is conspiring against him and has enlisted the "terrorist" Raynor in his cause and now Kerrigan, who is still capable of wielding the power of the Zerg. All three are powerful enemies of the state, are a threat to the current established status quo and have a direct beef with him. That they all have now enlisted with a nation that is anti-Dominion and has a history of conflict with the Dominion is icing on the cake. Sure, he's attacking something just on the basis of pure association I hear you say, but Kerrigan attacks the Dominion forces just because of their association with Mengsk.

It's stretching quite a bit to compare that with Mengsk being "associated" with the Dominion.

Only if you can demonstrate that there wasn't a civilian population on those worlds. ;)

You're the one making the assertion.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Kerrigan isn't inherently "good" and/or didn't have "good" intentions with regards to her initial actions, not that she can't be good or that any good actions she does do are still evil. Without any further reference to Raynor aside from Mengsk's announcement that Raynor was executed throughout HotS, Kerrigan would have not have left Warfield's men go or considered sparing civilians as per her original intent.

You've not demonstrated in any way that she intended to kill all the civilians before Raynor was freed, and you've not justified why thinking of Raynor invalidates her actions regarding Warfield's men.

Though I do not contest that Kerrigan is not good, or that her intentions aren't good. I merely claim that her intentions are not evil and her actions are beneficial.

Yes, and you expected the Confeds to expect that a nobody and their militia could stop a force they know is dangerous enough to give their own armies pause in advance of it (Raynor being able to beat back Zerg and defeat them wholesale forever more) actually happening?

Wait, when did the Zerg give the Confederate armies pause at this point?

You're not getting it. If Kerrigan fighting the Protoss is necessary to achieve the Overminds goal and Kerrigan is fighting the Protoss, it therefore means the Overmind is achieving its goal (which is what we have). Hence, if you're saying the Overmind is not achieving its goal then that means Kerrigan is not fighting Protoss - which is patently not true. It's either that or you're saying the Overmind is achieving its goal but Kerrigan is not fighting Protoss - which is patently not true. That's why your position is confusing.

Except I've already told you that the Dark Templar are a new, additional threat, therefore fighting them does nothing to counter the original threat which Kerrigan was needed for.

Because it wanted a counter to the Protoss' power. It felt that once it had this counter, it'd be unstoppable. Lo and behold, this is its actual mindset for rest of the campaign once Kerrigan is reborn into the Swarm.

Can you confirm with anything from the game that Tassadar and the Dark Templar were 'the Protoss' power' and that once defeated, the Protoss were no longer a threat?

Given that the Overminds goal revolves around Protoss, I can't exactly not talk about them can I? And I'm the one that's accused of obfuscation....

You're the one who said you stopped talking about them. Literally the last post you made.

Turalyon

12-11-2015, 07:13 AM

You mean like the Overmind's death ensured that the Zerg were never a hindrance again?

Kerrigan is not like the Overmind. Last time I checked she can't be reconstituted once killed... unless you want me to expect DEM (which I kinda do now with Sc anyways unfortunately :(:p)

It's stretching quite a bit to compare that with Mengsk being "associated" with the Dominion.

What's stretching? The Dominion is evil because it's associated with Mengsk, is it not?:rolleyes: That's what makes Kerrigan's actions against them just, right?:rolleyes:

You're the one making the assertion.

Just as you are making the assertion that Kerrigan attacking the Dominion is just.

Though I do not contest that Kerrigan is not good, or that her intentions aren't good. I merely claim that her intentions are not evil and her actions are beneficial.

That's good enough for me.

Wait, when did the Zerg give the Confederate armies pause at this point?

It didn't. That part (about being dangerous enough to give them pause - I didn't say it actually did) was said as a figure of speech to say that the Confeds know more about the Zerg and how dangerous they can be. If you wanted to include the EU and the precursor missions just before Sc1's Rebel Yell (yeah, yeah, I know how you feel about all that), the Confeds and Duke fought the Zerg on Chau Sara with limited success but was eventually overrun by Zerg anyway. That and Duke gets taken down by Zerg later during Rebel Yell. Besides, you didn't answer my question. :D

Except I've already told you that the Dark Templar are a new, additional threat, therefore fighting them does nothing to counter the original threat which Kerrigan was needed for.

She's not fighting just Dark Templar/this new, additional threat though since there are regular Protoss there, too... unless you're saying they're not part of the original threat that she is needed to counter. I would find that hard to believe, not that it would make a lick of sense in the first place. :confused:

Can you confirm with anything from the game that Tassadar and the Dark Templar were 'the Protoss' power' and that once defeated, the Protoss were no longer a threat?

This works both ways since I can replace "were" with "weren't" in the above statement and throw it back at you. Also, do you consider the Overmind successfully invading Aiur as the Protoss being no longer a threat? Not that Tasssadar or Zeratul or the Dark Templar or Aiur or anything Protoss related specifically apparently matters according to you... unless it suits your position.

You're the one who said you stopped talking about them. Literally the last post you made.

What do you mean by "them"? I said I stopped talking about "Dark Templar specifically" not "Protoss in general". If I can't even talk about the Protoss when the topic is about them, I have no idea what else you want from me.

In the interests of reaching of a middle ground, I want you to try and consider the following interpretation. You mentioned in one of your previous posts about my position only being possible if the Overmind thought the Protoss were essentially defeated before it got to Aiur and that I needed evidence for it. What if this is actually true and already self-evident in the campaign? The manual states the Overmind considers what it seeks amongst the Terrans is the final determinant in its victory over the Protoss. This can be taken as to mean that the successful acquisition of psionic potential (Kerrigan) itself is synonymous and tantamount to the defeat of the Protoss even though it is not in actuality.

It sort of makes sense given the Overmind likes to preordain and treats everything it does as some sort of manifest destiny. There's proof of this concept when it openly declares that what it has "wrought this day shall be the undoing of my enemies" in reference to Kerrigan's re-emergence and continues to proclaim victory at every other turn from thereonin. It also explains why the Overmind is nowhere near in-despair from any point in the campaign in contrary to what you believe because the Overmind was on the verge of "winning" more or less (in its mind) by the time the Overmind campaign starts (it has the chrysalis). Later on, it has "won" by the time Infested Kerrigan has hatched because it's final determinant is realised and that everything else that follows is a foregone conclusion. In that light, no matter what Infested Kerrigan does or does not do from that point, the Overmind has considered itself to be victorious just due to her very presence/existence.

Sure, one could argue and say this was not explicitly mentioned but then again, neither is Raynor and Kerrigan being in love in Rebel Yell explicitly mentioned either. Somehow, people accept the Raynor/Kerrigan in love as fact even without Sc2 to confirm it all because it was seemingly "suggested". I can't see why "suggestion" is not good enough for the Overminds case here.

FanaticTemplar

12-11-2015, 10:18 PM

Kerrigan is not like the Overmind. Last time I checked she can't be reconstituted once killed... unless you want me to expect DEM (which I kinda do now with Sc anyways unfortunately :(:p)

What does that change? The Overmind is dead and the Zerg haven't stopped being a threat.

What's stretching? The Dominion is evil because it's associated with Mengsk, is it not?:rolleyes: That's what makes Kerrigan's actions against them just, right?:rolleyes:

Do you really need me to explain to you that being a faction's prisoner and being a faction's ruler are different?

Just as you are making the assertion that Kerrigan attacking the Dominion is just.

I'm asserting that it's no worse than what any other character in StarCraft has done, actually. But sure, we could give it a try. Do you want to use the wikipedia criteria for that?

That's good enough for me.

You'll have to clarify that. Do you mean that you consider my claim sufficiently close to claiming that Kerrigan is good as to make no difference to you, or do you mean that you are satisfied with my position?

It didn't. That part (about being dangerous enough to give them pause - I didn't say it actually did) was said as a figure of speech to say that the Confeds know more about the Zerg and how dangerous they can be. If you wanted to include the EU and the precursor missions just before Sc1's Rebel Yell (yeah, yeah, I know how you feel about all that), the Confeds and Duke fought the Zerg on Chau Sara with limited success but was eventually overrun by Zerg anyway. That and Duke gets taken down by Zerg later during Rebel Yell. Besides, you didn't answer my question. :D

I didn't answer the question because I'm not sure I agree with its presuppositions. I think I played Precursor ages ago, but I remember little of it. It seems to contradict Tassadar's overview of the situation on Chau Sara, where he expresses puzzlement that the Terrans have not attempted to aid the besieged planet. It's my perspective that the Confederates were greatly underestimating the threat posed by the Zerg, if their plan for the Psi Emitters was to use the Zerg against their enemies and then send the Confederate armies to 'mop up' the Zerg. Remember that the Overmind was not actually sending the Swarm to invade the Terran worlds, but seeding them and infesting them stealthily. I believe that if the Zerg were found and assaulted early enough in the process, the infestation could have been prevented.

She's not fighting just Dark Templar/this new, additional threat though since there are regular Protoss there, too... unless you're saying they're not part of the original threat that she is needed to counter. I would find that hard to believe, not that it would make a lick of sense in the first place. :confused:

Certainly, you could make the case that Tassadar's Fleet of the Executor was the major strength of the Protoss, or at least that the Overmind believed that, and I would concede that if so, that would justify the Overmind's change in motivation. But you'd need to support that with the game. By my reckoning the defenders on Aiur were more of a threat than Tassadar's broken fleet, something that should be pretty easily demonstrated by the fact that the Aiur Protoss went to Char and rescued Tassadar and the remnants of his fleet, all while still fighting back the Swarm's invasion of Aiur.

This works both ways since I can replace "were" with "weren't" in the above statement and throw it back at you. Also, do you consider the Overmind successfully invading Aiur as the Protoss being no longer a threat? Not that Tasssadar or Zeratul or the Dark Templar or Aiur or anything Protoss related specifically apparently matters according to you... unless it suits your position.

The only thing that matters to me is the plot's coherency. The plot of StarCraft revolves around the Swarm's invasion of Aiur to assimilate the Protoss, and the Protoss having to come together to survive. The only thing that connects the first half of the story - the Terrans and Char and Kerrigan and the Koprulu Expeditionary Fleet - with the rest of the plot is that the Overmind felt it needed to assimilate Humanity's psionic potential in order to achieve its goal. And yet, it invaded Aiur to assimilate the Protoss without Humanity's psionic potential. The motivation that ties the first act into the story is completely forgotten. There is no reason StarCraft could not have started with the Swarm invasion of Aiur in the story as it stands. The only element that connects the plot together has been forgotten.

So you could change 'were' for 'weren't' but it wouldn't change a thing. It's the writers' responsibility to connect their story together, not mine, and not yours. I've already told you I accept your fanon explanation for what happened, but it changes nothing to the fact that the writers screwed up and left this giant plot hole in the story.

What do you mean by "them"? I said I stopped talking about "Dark Templar specifically" not "Protoss in general". If I can't even talk about the Protoss when the topic is about them, I have no idea what else you want from me.

What non-Tassadar-and-the-Dark-Templar Protoss did Kerrigan fight, if you're so adamant about not talking about Tassadar and the Dark Templar?

In the interests of reaching of a middle ground, I want you to try and consider the following interpretation. You mentioned in one of your previous posts about my position only being possible if the Overmind thought the Protoss were essentially defeated before it got to Aiur and that I needed evidence for it. What if this is actually true and already self-evident in the campaign? The manual states the Overmind considers what it seeks amongst the Terrans is the final determinant in its victory over the Protoss. This can be taken as to mean that the successful acquisition of psionic potential (Kerrigan) itself is synonymous and tantamount to the defeat of the Protoss even though it is not in actuality.

It sort of makes sense given the Overmind likes to preordain and treats everything it does as some sort of manifest destiny. There's proof of this concept when it openly declares that what it has "wrought this day shall be the undoing of my enemies" in reference to Kerrigan's re-emergence and continues to proclaim victory at every other turn from thereonin. It also explains why the Overmind is nowhere near in-despair from any point in the campaign in contrary to what you believe because the Overmind was on the verge of "winning" more or less (in its mind) by the time the Overmind campaign starts (it has the chrysalis). Later on, it has "won" by the time Infested Kerrigan has hatched because it's final determinant is realised and that everything else that follows is a foregone conclusion. In that light, no matter what Infested Kerrigan does or does not do from that point, the Overmind has considered itself to be victorious just due to her very presence/existence.

An interesting idea. You'd interpret Infested Kerrigan not as a weapon for the Protoss' destruction, but as some revelatory annunciation? There's actually quite a bit of interesting material to speculate about in that idea, especially in light of StarCraft II's retcons, but in the interest of remaining on track, I sadly must say that if this were true, I don't think that it has been made sufficiently clear in the game. But do bring it up again some other time, because I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.

(How does my spellcheck recognise 'annunciation' but not 'revelatory'? I would've sworn the latter was more common.)

Sure, one could argue and say this was not explicitly mentioned but then again, neither is Raynor and Kerrigan being in love in Rebel Yell explicitly mentioned either. Somehow, people accept the Raynor/Kerrigan in love as fact even without Sc2 to confirm it all because it was seemingly "suggested". I can't see why "suggestion" is not good enough for the Overminds case here.

Ah, that's not quite the same. I believed there's sufficient context in the original games to conclude a romantic attraction between the two (though I would not have imagined an actual relationship), but I would not say that this is sufficient basis for it becoming a major driving force of the plot. Not everything needs to be thoroughly explained, and as I've mentioned before, I am perfectly satisfied with your provided explanation to justify how things turned out. But when fanon needs to fill in something this integral to the game's storyline, then I accept that it's a plot hole.

Turalyon

12-12-2015, 06:52 AM

What does that change? The Overmind is dead and the Zerg haven't stopped being a threat.

The Zerg stopped being a threat at the end of Sc1 with the Overmind being dead... and then the DEMs in BW occurred. To Mengsk in Sc2, the Zerg is only part of the threat since it's really Kerrigan that is the threat. She's not dead by the end of WoL, so the threat of her and by extension, the Zerg still exists.

Do you really need me to explain to you that being a faction's prisoner and being a faction's ruler are different?

Do I really need to explain the use of :rolleyes: at the end of my questions?

I'm asserting that it's no worse than what any other character in StarCraft has done, actually. But sure, we could give it a try. Do you want to use the wikipedia criteria for that?

No need. I know enough of your position now to predict the direction it will take. I don't have any compulsion to refute it either way.

You'll have to clarify that. Do you mean that you consider my claim sufficiently close to claiming that Kerrigan is good as to make no difference to you, or do you mean that you are satisfied with my position?

Both. I guess the real question that is left now is whether Kerrigan's good deeds were enough - did she earn her redemption or was it just given to her? My money's still on her being an exaggerated "Karma Houdini".

I didn't answer the question because I'm not sure I agree with its presuppositions. I think I played Precursor ages ago, but I remember little of it. It seems to contradict Tassadar's overview of the situation on Chau Sara, where he expresses puzzlement that the Terrans have not attempted to aid the besieged planet. It's my perspective that the Confederates were greatly underestimating the threat posed by the Zerg, if their plan for the Psi Emitters was to use the Zerg against their enemies and then send the Confederate armies to 'mop up' the Zerg. Remember that the Overmind was not actually sending the Swarm to invade the Terran worlds, but seeding them and infesting them stealthily. I believe that if the Zerg were found and assaulted early enough in the process, the infestation could have been prevented.

Eh, I'm still not entirely sure. For the Confeds to keep on underestimating the Zerg after what ultimately happened to Chau Sara (they couldn't save it) kinda gives the impression that they knowingly held the "idiot ball" - call me optimistic but I'd like to believe that an institution that has lasted >100 years would know better than to make such a monumentally continuous underestimation. Even so, the Confeds have more knowledge of the Zerg than the colonies who are invaded by them. I could understand why the Confeds would feel over-confident in handling the Zerg due to their misguided belief in being able to control them (in the initial stages at least) but why would they expect "lesser" peoples with no knowledge of the Zerg whatsoever to be able to stand up to them? Kinda defeats the purpose of using them at all if they can be defeated by small bands of local militia if you're asking me. Also, since the worlds were being stealthily infested, the colonies wouldn't have known about them until it was too late anyway. If the Confeds didn't redirect the colonists in the first place they wouldn't have given them a chance at defending themselves/destroying the Zerg in the first place.

An interesting idea. You'd interpret Infested Kerrigan not as a weapon for the Protoss' destruction, but as some revelatory annunciation? There's actually quite a bit of interesting material to speculate about in that idea, especially in light of StarCraft II's retcons, but in the interest of remaining on track, I sadly must say that if this were true, I don't think that it has been made sufficiently clear in the game. But do bring it up again some other time, because I'd love to hear more thoughts on this.

Ok, we're getting somewhere. I thought the interpretation I just gave was something I had made explicit earlier but it looks like I was mistaken and/or very unclear. I think had said something to the effect of the Overmind thinking of Kerrigan as some sort of "morale boost" for itself earlier on. It ties into the despair thing and how the Overmind shows no hint of despair whatsoever during the campaign. The Overmind's "despair" about the Protoss might is a perceived but self-imposed mental roadblock with which Kerrigan is essentially the perceived solution to. In other words, she is the victory condition rather than the means to get to a victory condition. If you can somehow filter this interpretation with all that I've said on this matter in rebuttal to your position, I'm hoping you can understand where my position is coming from better.

I can see why this would be unclear in the game and that's largely because by the time the Overmind campaign has started, the Overmind is no longer in the state that we last saw it desribed as being in. Because the despair thing was in the manual, one would never have guessed that it ever was if one played only the campaign since all we get in the game is the Overmind's overconfidence in everything that it does. Should we blame the game for not telling us the Overmind's had despair but overcame it in the prologue to the Overmind campaign or elsewhere, like when Kerrigan hatched out of the chrysalis in Agent of the Swarm? I suppose then that the biggest fault is the game not clarifying or (re-)iterating the Overmind's motivation early in the campaign rather than it "forgetting" its motivation at the end when it assaults Aiur. Then again, having this literally spelled out would make it seem rather expository/clunky and on-the-nose - why would the Overmind ever say such a thing overtly and to itself when it only benefits an out-of-universe audience it doesn't even expect to have? It may have been better served if it was implicit by the Overmind just acting out how it felt - which it did. And yes, I know circumstantial evidence is not direct evidence but it's better than nothing.

Certainly, you could make the case that Tassadar's Fleet of the Executor was the major strength of the Protoss, or at least that the Overmind believed that, and I would concede that if so, that would justify the Overmind's change in motivation. But you'd need to support that with the game. By my reckoning the defenders on Aiur were more of a threat than Tassadar's broken fleet, something that should be pretty easily demonstrated by the fact that the Aiur Protoss went to Char and rescued Tassadar and the remnants of his fleet, all while still fighting back the Swarm's invasion of Aiur.

If one is to adopt the interpretation I provided, the distinction of whether or not Tassadar's fleet (or Aiur for that matter) was the major strength of Protoss is actually moot. It also means that though situational circumstances have changed, the Overmind's justification and motivation actually hasn't changed either. All that matters is that Kerrigan was used for her purpose in fighting Protoss - which she did on a broad level.

The only thing that matters to me is the plot's coherency. The plot of StarCraft revolves around the Swarm's invasion of Aiur to assimilate the Protoss, and the Protoss having to come together to survive. The only thing that connects the first half of the story - the Terrans and Char and Kerrigan and the Koprulu Expeditionary Fleet - with the rest of the plot is that the Overmind felt it needed to assimilate Humanity's psionic potential in order to achieve its goal. And yet, it invaded Aiur to assimilate the Protoss without Humanity's psionic potential. The motivation that ties the first act into the story is completely forgotten. There is no reason StarCraft could not have started with the Swarm invasion of Aiur in the story as it stands. The only element that connects the plot together has been forgotten.

It is actually coherent if you keep the interpretation I mentioned in mind. In that sense, the Overmind's invasion of Aiur is not actually predicated on the physical proximity of Kerrigan/Humanity's psionic potential. That it has Kerrigan/Humanity's psionic potential at all is enough such that the effect of that means the Overmind considers that the invasion of Aiur is with Humanity's psionic potential - though not in actuality or at the present moment in time. From this perspective, the motivation has not been forgotten either.

What non-Tassadar-and-the-Dark-Templar Protoss did Kerrigan fight, if you're so adamant about not talking about Tassadar and the Dark Templar?

Should I include gameplay elements? In The Dark Templar and Eye for Eye, we see Kerrigan in the field where she engages all manner of Protoss from Zealots to High Templar and so on.

FanaticTemplar

12-12-2015, 02:42 PM

The Zerg stopped being a threat at the end of Sc1 with the Overmind being dead... and then the DEMs in BW occurred. To Mengsk in Sc2, the Zerg is only part of the threat since it's really Kerrigan that is the threat. She's not dead by the end of WoL, so the threat of her and by extension, the Zerg still exists.

Don't know about that, Kerrigan took over when the Overmind died, so another Queen might have taken over after Kerrigan got deinfested (or Mengsk killed her). This is actually the plotline I wish they'd gone for after Wings of Liberty, in fact.

Do I really need to explain the use of :rolleyes: at the end of my questions?

Sometimes :p. I did interpret them differently, so I apologise for that.

Both. I guess the real question that is left now is whether Kerrigan's good deeds were enough - did she earn her redemption or was it just given to her? My money's still on her being an exaggerated "Karma Houdini".

They are not. Certainly not in Heart of the Swarm, at least. I'm not sure how to judge her divine ascension and bringing of life across the Sector in Legacy of the Void, I certainly don't find it sufficiently satisfying. Anyway, as to Heart of the Swarm, being not evil is not enough to earn a redemption, and killing something worse than you are is not enough either. This is actually something Blizzard does all the time. That bit in The Quest for Uraj where Zeratul claims that Kerrigan might not be evil after all because she killed some Terrans for her own ends? It's that same mentality at work. But to me the worst example is Grom Hellscream in WarCraft III: Reign of Chaos. Grom's entire deal in that game is his stupid need to kill everything he sees, and once he finds something he can't kill, he enslaves himself and his tribe to the demons to get enough power to kill it. Then he gets rescued by the Xel'naga Artifact and dies killing a big demon, and now he's a hero. You don't earn a redemption by directing your uncontrolled murderous impulses at something worse than you are. You need to actually change.

Eh, I'm still not entirely sure. For the Confeds to keep on underestimating the Zerg after what ultimately happened to Chau Sara (they couldn't save it) kinda gives the impression that they knowingly held the "idiot ball" - call me optimistic but I'd like to believe that an institution that has lasted >100 years would know better than to make such a monumentally continuous underestimation. Even so, the Confeds have more knowledge of the Zerg than the colonies who are invaded by them. I could understand why the Confeds would feel over-confident in handling the Zerg due to their misguided belief in being able to control them (in the initial stages at least) but why would they expect "lesser" peoples with no knowledge of the Zerg whatsoever to be able to stand up to them? Kinda defeats the purpose of using them at all if they can be defeated by small bands of local militia if you're asking me. Also, since the worlds were being stealthily infested, the colonies wouldn't have known about them until it was too late anyway. If the Confeds didn't redirect the colonists in the first place they wouldn't have given them a chance at defending themselves/destroying the Zerg in the first place.

I think that's why they made the Psi Emitters capable of reaching across worlds. They didn't believe just seeding some Zerg on a planet would be effective against their enemies, they felt that they needed to bring Zerg from all over the Sector.

Ok, we're getting somewhere. I thought the interpretation I just gave was something I had made explicit earlier but it looks like I was mistaken and/or very unclear. I think had said something to the effect of the Overmind thinking of Kerrigan as some sort of "morale boost" for itself earlier on. It ties into the despair thing and how the Overmind shows no hint of despair whatsoever during the campaign. The Overmind's "despair" about the Protoss might is a perceived but self-imposed mental roadblock with which Kerrigan is essentially the perceived solution to. In other words, she is the victory condition rather than the means to get to a victory condition. If you can somehow filter this interpretation with all that I've said on this matter in rebuttal to your position, I'm hoping you can understand where my position is coming from better.

I can see why this would be unclear in the game and that's largely because by the time the Overmind campaign has started, the Overmind is no longer in the state that we last saw it desribed as being in. Because the despair thing was in the manual, one would never have guessed that it ever was if one played only the campaign since all we get in the game is the Overmind's overconfidence in everything that it does. Should we blame the game for not telling us the Overmind's had despair but overcame it in the prologue to the Overmind campaign or elsewhere, like when Kerrigan hatched out of the chrysalis in Agent of the Swarm? I suppose then that the biggest fault is the game not clarifying or (re-)iterating the Overmind's motivation early in the campaign rather than it "forgetting" its motivation at the end when it assaults Aiur. Then again, having this literally spelled out would make it seem rather expository/clunky and on-the-nose - why would the Overmind ever say such a thing overtly and to itself when it only benefits an out-of-universe audience it doesn't even expect to have? It may have been better served if it was implicit by the Overmind just acting out how it felt - which it did. And yes, I know circumstantial evidence is not direct evidence but it's better than nothing.

Yes, we could see it as the game not expressing the Overmind's motivation for attacking the Terran worlds, but we do get this part in Rebel Yell:

KERRIGAN: "Those running the program found that the Zerg are attuned to the psychic emanations of Ghosts."
RAYNOR: "So the Zerg are here for you, darlin'?"

Which, incidentally, is super on-the-nose :p.

But then we also get these from Overmind:

OVERMIND: "What I have wrought this day shall be the undoing of my enemies!"

And perhaps most tellingly:

"Kerrigan, the newest and most powerful agent of the Overmind, has arisen from her embryonic Chrysalis, but her formidable powers are still not fully functional.

Kerrigan must now seek to unravel the Ghost conditioning that keeps her powers in check. Once done, she will lead the Overmind's minions to complete domination over the unsuspecting Protoss."

So while the reason why the Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to overcome the Protoss might not be explained, the game fully sets down the expectation that she will be leading our efforts against the Protoss, and that this is why the Zerg invaded the Terran worlds.

It is actually coherent if you keep the interpretation I mentioned in mind. In that sense, the Overmind's invasion of Aiur is not actually predicated on the physical proximity of Kerrigan/Humanity's psionic potential. That it has Kerrigan/Humanity's psionic potential at all is enough such that the effect of that means the Overmind considers that the invasion of Aiur is with Humanity's psionic potential - though not in actuality or at the present moment in time. From this perspective, the motivation has not been forgotten either.

It'd be coherent if this was what the game set up. But as I've cited, the game very heavily implies that Kerrigan is to be used as a weapon. Even her unveiling, 'Agent of the Swarm' implies agency, that is, action to produce results.

Overmind would leave you to think the only reason the Overmind didn't attack Aiur was because it didn't know its 'secret location', a notion which pretty much jettisons the first half of the story.

Should I include gameplay elements? In The Dark Templar and Eye for Eye, we see Kerrigan in the field where she engages all manner of Protoss from Zealots to High Templar and so on.

Those are from Tassadar's fleet.

Turalyon

12-13-2015, 06:09 AM

Don't know about that, Kerrigan took over when the Overmind died, so another Queen might have taken over after Kerrigan got deinfested (or Mengsk killed her). This is actually the plotline I wish they'd gone for after Wings of Liberty, in fact.

That maybe so but Kerrigan isn't dead yet, just "deinfested". Given that there has been no solid precedent of this sort of thing ever happening before (would we expect Mengsk to know about the Protoss nanite serum or Dr Hanson's work?), Mengsk would want to make sure that the real danger of the Zerg (Kerrigan acting as the unifying presence) is neutralised for certain because he can then continue scouring Char or the Zerg with some more peace of mind at the least. Afterall, he's already under-estimated her before several times to his own eventual detriment. Plus, if he's obsessed with Raynor, I'm sure he's obsessed with Kerrigan, too. Sure, you could say that this would be like us expecting Mengsk to expect another DEM to occur again but since they're always happening specifically around Kerrigan (he would've thought she died at New Gettysburg like any reasonable person would), you can't blame the guy for trying to make sure.

That being said, for plotting reasons, I too wish that we got a true Zerg campaign that didn't involve Kerrigan either. Either that, or follow a changed Kerrigan that didn't involve Zerg. I can see why neither of those two options would be acceptable to Blizz or the fans (it's either "oh noes, we can't not include Kerrigan!" or "oh noes, we can't have two Terran campaigns/no Zerg campaign!"), which is why we got HotS which made even less sense in the end due to the mixed messages and incongruousness of having a supposedly changed person going back to using living weapons of mass destruction again.

They are not. Certainly not in Heart of the Swarm, at least. I'm not sure how to judge her divine ascension and bringing of life across the Sector in Legacy of the Void, I certainly don't find it sufficiently satisfying. Anyway, as to Heart of the Swarm, being not evil is not enough to earn a redemption, and killing something worse than you are is not enough either. This is actually something Blizzard does all the time. That bit in The Quest for Uraj where Zeratul claims that Kerrigan might not be evil after all because she killed some Terrans for her own ends? It's that same mentality at work. But to me the worst example is Grom Hellscream in WarCraft III: Reign of Chaos. Grom's entire deal in that game is his stupid need to kill everything he sees, and once he finds something he can't kill, he enslaves himself and his tribe to the demons to get enough power to kill it. Then he gets rescued by the Xel'naga Artifact and dies killing a big demon, and now he's a hero. You don't earn a redemption by directing your uncontrolled murderous impulses at something worse than you are. You need to actually change.

Makes me wonder then. What would it take to redeem her then? Unlike Grom, Kerrigan does exhibit the potential to change and she does do more than what Grom did (given that Grom only had one opportunity and dying by taking it). The only way I can see this happening without her dying is that there's a downside to her doing good to counterbalance all her evil doings having an upside for her. I think part of why it isn't satisying is that there's no sense of accountability and that Kerrigan is constantly rewarded whether she does good or bad. There is no sense of punishment from what I can see.

I didn't mind Grom's sacrifice at the time since it doesn't absolve him completely and that any other ending (like him living) would be an even worse treatment comparatively since it would seem like he got a free pass. The death may not be ideal justice but it's both redemptive and and an appropriate punishment. Course, I believe the lore has him regarded as a hero now, so I understand why that might grate.

I think that's why they made the Psi Emitters capable of reaching across worlds. They didn't believe just seeding some Zerg on a planet would be effective against their enemies, they felt that they needed to bring Zerg from all over the Sector.

But with Chau Sara already overrun and destroyed, all this just means is that the Confeds know more about the Zerg and how dangerous they can be. This leads to how one could expect the Confeds to think that local militias could stand up to them. If they just wanted to watch the Zerg in action, why bother leading these forces on to discover the Zerg only to arrest them when they could've done nothing at all except surreptitiously bring Zerg to the world until they reached critical mass? If they wanted to be heroes and sweep on in and take credit for killing Zerg (an unlikely scenario since they never showed up to help at all), it would've been easier had they not forced people to relocate and not wasted time arresting the local militia. Sounds like some weird conspiracy.

So while the reason why the Overmind felt it needed Kerrigan to overcome the Protoss might not be explained, the game fully sets down the expectation that she will be leading our efforts against the Protoss, and that this is why the Zerg invaded the Terran worlds.

Fair enough, but are we supposed to take this as Kerrigan being the only thing that can take action against Protoss such that no action against Protoss is possible (like the Overmind going to Aiur or even earlier with the mission Egression) without Kerrigan?). Like I've said before, there's no real restriction or rule that stipulates that Kerrigan must accompany the Overmind's initial invasion of Aiur right at that moment. Keepining in mind that the Overmind is prone to pronouncements of victory despite not actually having achieved it yet, it's successful manifestation on Aiur does not necessarily mean the Protoss' ultimate defeat at that specific point in time either. Kerrigan can always come later to do the actual conquering of the world but the Overmind campaign ends at that point. And yes, whilst she never does rock up on Aiur, something could've happened to warrant that but we just don't see it because we're no longer on the Zerg perspective. Don't get me wrong, I'm still with you in regards to how poorly it's conveyed though (it could've sufficed to have the Overmind say "I just don't think Kerrigan needs to come with me yet" or that Kerrigan just wanted to keep on fighting on Char).

It'd be coherent if this was what the game set up. But as I've cited, the game very heavily implies that Kerrigan is to be used as a weapon. Even her unveiling, 'Agent of the Swarm' implies agency, that is, action to produce results.

Overmind would leave you to think the only reason the Overmind didn't attack Aiur was because it didn't know its 'secret location', a notion which pretty much jettisons the first half of the story.

The setup is important for sure but if the inherent value of Kerrigan to the Overmind was first and foremost to give it a confidence boost/a way past it's own mental block and that had already happened prior to the Overmind campaign starting (or when she hatched), then the strict importance of her use as a weapon (and on Aiur no less) is diluted. What's important then is that she is being used as a weapon against Protoss at the least - and she fulfills that requirement. It doesn't jettison half the story either since her real value is her being in existence on the Zerg side such that without her, it wouldn't have been able to go to Aiur even if it did know where Aiur was from the start of the campaign.

Those are from Tassadar's fleet.

If you keep in mind that interpretation I gave, this distinction is pointless. Doesn't matter who they are, where they're from, how many there are, where they are at any given time - the point is that they're Protoss and she's fighting them as the Overmind expects and wants of her.

FanaticTemplar

12-14-2015, 11:21 PM

That maybe so but Kerrigan isn't dead yet, just "deinfested". Given that there has been no solid precedent of this sort of thing ever happening before (would we expect Mengsk to know about the Protoss nanite serum or Dr Hanson's work?), Mengsk would want to make sure that the real danger of the Zerg (Kerrigan acting as the unifying presence) is neutralised for certain because he can then continue scouring Char or the Zerg with some more peace of mind at the least.

Your hypothetical also works in the reverse direction though. We have precedent for a Swarm leader dying and being replaced, but not for what happened to Kerrigan. It might be that the situation is confusing the Zerg as to whether Kerrigan is still Queen or if she needs to be replaced, and that killing her would only clarify the hierarchy and allow the Zerg to regroup, therefore being the worst thing Mengsk could do right now.

That being said, for plotting reasons, I too wish that we got a true Zerg campaign that didn't involve Kerrigan either. Either that, or follow a changed Kerrigan that didn't involve Zerg. I can see why neither of those two options would be acceptable to Blizz or the fans (it's either "oh noes, we can't not include Kerrigan!" or "oh noes, we can't have two Terran campaigns/no Zerg campaign!"), which is why we got HotS which made even less sense in the end due to the mixed messages and incongruousness of having a supposedly changed person going back to using living weapons of mass destruction again.

I think it could have worked without Kerrigan, basically showing us the chaos her disappearance left within the Swarm, allowing her importance to shine through her absence, but who knows.

Makes me wonder then. What would it take to redeem her then? Unlike Grom, Kerrigan does exhibit the potential to change and she does do more than what Grom did (given that Grom only had one opportunity and dying by taking it). The only way I can see this happening without her dying is that there's a downside to her doing good to counterbalance all her evil doings having an upside for her. I think part of why it isn't satisying is that there's no sense of accountability and that Kerrigan is constantly rewarded whether she does good or bad. There is no sense of punishment from what I can see.

I didn't mind Grom's sacrifice at the time since it doesn't absolve him completely and that any other ending (like him living) would be an even worse treatment comparatively since it would seem like he got a free pass. The death may not be ideal justice but it's both redemptive and and an appropriate punishment. Course, I believe the lore has him regarded as a hero now, so I understand why that might grate.

Yeah, I don't see dying as being especially meaningful morality-wise. At least, not the way Grom did. Tassadar deliberately sacrificed his life to slay the Overmind, but Grom just died as a result of the fight, it wasn't even a deliberate sacrifice. The same thing could have happened to him while he was fighting Cenarius or some random Alliance hero.

As to Kerrigan, all those plot points about sacrificing her advantages to minimise risks to civilians are a good starting point, and for that reason I'd say she's further along the path of redemption than Grom, but the didn't really cost her anything since she ends up winning anyway. If we contrast this to Tassadar, whose attempt to spare the people of Tarsonis lead to unmitigated disaster. Morally, it's the choice that matters, not the outcome, but from a narrative perspective, we don't get to actually 'feel' the sacrifices she's made, so they're not really consequential. Same goes with reinfesting herself, she doesn't really lose anything from it.

Maybe if returning to the Zerg had been the final straw, and lost her Raynor forever, and she did it anyway because it was necessary, then that would have been something. But it would also have required making it far clearer that Kerrigan was doing this out of more than just revenge. There's a sense that she needs to give a personal cost to help others. That's why 'death' is the general go-to for redemption stories. That, and you get to leave on a high note.

Otherwise, she kinda needs to make up for all the damage she's caused, which is why I say that I'm not sure how to deal with her at the end of Legacy of the Void. Obviously she can't bring everyone she killed back to life, but turning all those worlds in the Sector into habitable havens might repay that in the grand scale, allowing humanity to prosper and multiply. I don't know, it's hard for me to judge things on such a scale. I don't think it's satisfying, but is it enough for her to redeem herself?

But with Chau Sara already overrun and destroyed, all this just means is that the Confeds know more about the Zerg and how dangerous they can be. This leads to how one could expect the Confeds to think that local militias could stand up to them. If they just wanted to watch the Zerg in action, why bother leading these forces on to discover the Zerg only to arrest them when they could've done nothing at all except surreptitiously bring Zerg to the world until they reached critical mass? If they wanted to be heroes and sweep on in and take credit for killing Zerg (an unlikely scenario since they never showed up to help at all), it would've been easier had they not forced people to relocate and not wasted time arresting the local militia. Sounds like some weird conspiracy.

Well, that depends. Maybe things on Chau Sara were going as the Confederates planned, but before they could swoop in, Tassadar and the Protoss appeared and wiped the planet?

Fair enough, but are we supposed to take this as Kerrigan being the only thing that can take action against Protoss such that no action against Protoss is possible (like the Overmind going to Aiur or even earlier with the mission Egression) without Kerrigan?). Like I've said before, there's no real restriction or rule that stipulates that Kerrigan must accompany the Overmind's initial invasion of Aiur right at that moment. Keepining in mind that the Overmind is prone to pronouncements of victory despite not actually having achieved it yet, it's successful manifestation on Aiur does not necessarily mean the Protoss' ultimate defeat at that specific point in time either. Kerrigan can always come later to do the actual conquering of the world but the Overmind campaign ends at that point. And yes, whilst she never does rock up on Aiur, something could've happened to warrant that but we just don't see it because we're no longer on the Zerg perspective. Don't get me wrong, I'm still with you in regards to how poorly it's conveyed though (it could've sufficed to have the Overmind say "I just don't think Kerrigan needs to come with me yet" or that Kerrigan just wanted to keep on fighting on Char).

No, there's no non-narrative reason Kerrigan has to go with the Overmind to Aiur, but narratively, since Kerrigan's been established as the Swarm's key to victory over the Protoss, and Aiur has been established as the key battleground for the Swarm's ultimate victory ("For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.", etc) there is immense narrative reason that Kerrigan must accompany the Overmind to Aiur. I'd be fine with the notion that the Overmind considered the Dark Templar to be their greatest threat, but again, given that this is the game's main storyline, it really should have been addressed in the game itself. Just have the Overmind order Kerrigan to stay behind because the Dark Templar are the greatest threat to their victory, and you've covered your bases.

Turalyon

12-17-2015, 08:56 AM

Your hypothetical also works in the reverse direction though. We have precedent for a Swarm leader dying and being replaced, but not for what happened to Kerrigan. It might be that the situation is confusing the Zerg as to whether Kerrigan is still Queen or if she needs to be replaced, and that killing her would only clarify the hierarchy and allow the Zerg to regroup, therefore being the worst thing Mengsk could do right now.

But the Zerg are already infighting without Kerrigan/QoB already. Expecting a DEM the Swarm to magically recover if Kerrigan is actually killed as his own internal justification for Mengsk not to go finish the job sort of undermines his decision in starting the job (wanting to kill her at all) in the first place.

Yeah, I don't see dying as being especially meaningful morality-wise. At least, not the way Grom did. Tassadar deliberately sacrificed his life to slay the Overmind, but Grom just died as a result of the fight, it wasn't even a deliberate sacrifice. The same thing could have happened to him while he was fighting Cenarius or some random Alliance hero.

Oh, I don't know. I would think that a blood curse with enough power to kill it's creator would somehow be made to prohibit one of it's thralls from turning on, attacking and killing its own creator. That or Mannoroth was just dumb.

Maybe if returning to the Zerg had been the final straw, and lost her Raynor forever, and she did it anyway because it was necessary, then that would have been something. But it would also have required making it far clearer that Kerrigan was doing this out of more than just revenge. There's a sense that she needs to give a personal cost to help others.

But isn't this what HotS represented (or seems to want to imply) albeit poorly? The decision to go to the Zerg is supposed to be her only option left (as opposed to going the Ghost path) and the only way to give Raynor justice for his wrongful execution. For that choice, she is rebuked by the one person (who turns out didn't actually get executed) who she was doing this all for. Also, she gives up Raynor after defeating Mengsk to go fight Amon. There's a personal cost there, but it never sticks because she is later and ultimately rewarded for it anyway.

Otherwise, she kinda needs to make up for all the damage she's caused, which is why I say that I'm not sure how to deal with her at the end of Legacy of the Void. Obviously she can't bring everyone she killed back to life, but turning all those worlds in the Sector into habitable havens might repay that in the grand scale, allowing humanity to prosper and multiply. I don't know, it's hard for me to judge things on such a scale. I don't think it's satisfying, but is it enough for her to redeem herself?

The biggest problem is that the magnitude of the damage she has caused defies any sort of redemption being possible in such a small amount of time short of her becoming a god. And guess what happened? She became one. That they do make this so, kinda renders all of her actions as being meaningless and her character being too idealised because she gets rewarded whether she does good or bad. It's unsatsifying because by going that route outs it as an obvious and cheap writer's ploy. Given that she so much to be redeemed for and that the solution (being a god) is so extreme to counter it, it feels way more unearned compared to Raynor's redemption in WoL where he had an undisguised plot device to help him get there, too, but his redemption was more of personal/internal/subjective kind which made it more palatable.

Also, her bringing life back to the Sector is directly in contrast to her leaving the Zerg intact and giving them free reign to ravage the sector again, which is likely since Zerg have no other choices left to them. Once again, having a "good" Kerrigan and the Zerg linked in such a way is at cross purposes.

Well, that depends. Maybe things on Chau Sara were going as the Confederates planned, but before they could swoop in, Tassadar and the Protoss appeared and wiped the planet?

If they wanted to take credit for beating Zerg then why didn't they swoop in to help Mar Sara then? It obviously wasn't bad enough for the Protoss to come yet and incinerate the planet and yet the Confeds never showed up to take control of the situation. Still sounds like a very neat and convenient conspiracy theory.

No, there's no non-narrative reason Kerrigan has to go with the Overmind to Aiur, but narratively, since Kerrigan's been established as the Swarm's key to victory over the Protoss, and Aiur has been established as the key battleground for the Swarm's ultimate victory ("For upon this world of Aiur shall we incorporate the strongest known species into our fold. Then shall we be the greatest of creation's children. We shall be... Perfect.", etc) there is immense narrative reason that Kerrigan must accompany the Overmind to Aiur.

The quote you provided only establishes Aiur as the key battleground after it has already invaded Aiur and successfully prepared the site for its manifestation. She wasn't necessary to start the invasion before then.

FanaticTemplar

12-17-2015, 01:42 PM

But the Zerg are already infighting without Kerrigan/QoB already. Expecting a DEM the Swarm to magically recover if Kerrigan is actually killed as his own internal justification for Mengsk not to go finish the job sort of undermines his decision in starting the job (wanting to kill her at all) in the first place.

But they're not really without Kerrigan... she still exists and has some measure of control over the Zerg, but she's no longer their 'overmind'. It's an unprecedented situation and the Zerg would not know how to adapt.

But isn't this what HotS represented (or seems to want to imply) albeit poorly? The decision to go to the Zerg is supposed to be her only option left (as opposed to going the Ghost path) and the only way to give Raynor justice for his wrongful execution. For that choice, she is rebuked by the one person (who turns out didn't actually get executed) who she was doing this all for. Also, she gives up Raynor after defeating Mengsk to go fight Amon. There's a personal cost there, but it never sticks because she is later and ultimately rewarded for it anyway.

Right, there are potential costs, but she never needs to pay them in the end.

The biggest problem is that the magnitude of the damage she has caused defies any sort of redemption being possible in such a small amount of time short of her becoming a god. And guess what happened? She became one. That they do make this so, kinda renders all of her actions as being meaningless and her character being too idealised because she gets rewarded whether she does good or bad. It's unsatsifying because by going that route outs it as an obvious and cheap writer's ploy. Given that she so much to be redeemed for and that the solution (being a god) is so extreme to counter it, it feels way more unearned compared to Raynor's redemption in WoL where he had an undisguised plot device to help him get there, too, but his redemption was more of personal/internal/subjective kind which made it more palatable.

There's supposed to be a trading of her humanity for that divinity, but she already traded her humanity to become Zerg again in Heart of the Swarm, so there's nothing left to give.

If they wanted to take credit for beating Zerg then why didn't they swoop in to help Mar Sara then? It obviously wasn't bad enough for the Protoss to come yet and incinerate the planet and yet the Confeds never showed up to take control of the situation. Still sounds like a very neat and convenient conspiracy theory.

Good question.

The quote you provided only establishes Aiur as the key battleground after it has already invaded Aiur and successfully prepared the site for its manifestation. She wasn't necessary to start the invasion before then.

This is wrong. That quote comes from the briefing to The Invasion of Aiur and is, as you might expect from that, a precursor to the invasion of Aiur.

Turalyon

12-19-2015, 07:19 AM

But they're not really without Kerrigan... she still exists and has some measure of control over the Zerg, but she's no longer their 'overmind'. It's an unprecedented situation and the Zerg would not know how to adapt.

Yes and you expect Mengsk to know this and just stop trying to kill her?

There's supposed to be a trading of her humanity for that divinity, but she already traded her humanity to become Zerg again in Heart of the Swarm, so there's nothing left to give.

What trading of her humanity for divinity? She's trading her inhumanity for the chance at humanity through divinity - a chance that conveniently falls into her lap.

Good question.

What do you mean by that? You are still claiming that the Confeds wanted Mar Sara to be eaten by Zerg all along and that Duke knew about it/was working toward that goal, right? It wouldn't make sense for the Confeds to waste resources directly intervening on Mar Sara at all since they could just attract millions more Zerg to it if they wanted to at any time and could still benefit from the Protoss incinerating the planet if their real aim was to see the colony destroyed.

This is wrong. That quote comes from the briefing to The Invasion of Aiur and is, as you might expect from that, a precursor to the invasion of Aiur.

My bad. Still, the entirety of the Swarm had already arrived in orbit over Aiur when the quote was made which means she wasn't still necessary to start the invasion. There's nothing that says no decisive action of any kind against the Protoss is possible without Kerrigan just as there's nothing with the Overmind going to Aiur that denies that Kerrigan may still be the key to defeating the Protoss. Like I said with my interpretation, Kerrigan is a key to victory over the Protoss insofar as her very existence within the Swarm is what is more important to the Overmind and not that she goes to a place where there's more Protoss to fight. In the campaign, all that is established regarding her exact practical importance is filtered through the Overmind's rhetoric which is non-specific. Also, not all cerebrates seem to agree that Kerrigan is vitally important in terms of taking on Protoss (Zasz being the obvious one but even Daggoth believes it can take on Protoss by itself while it tasks Kerrigan to mop-up the Garm Brood).

FanaticTemplar

12-20-2015, 02:39 PM

Yes and you expect Mengsk to know this and just stop trying to kill her?

You're the one trying to justify Mengsk's attack on the basis that this would somehow harm the Zerg, I,m pointing out that even that assumption is dubious.

What trading of her humanity for divinity? She's trading her inhumanity for the chance at humanity through divinity - a chance that conveniently falls into her lap.

Exactly what I said.

What do you mean by that? You are still claiming that the Confeds wanted Mar Sara to be eaten by Zerg all along and that Duke knew about it/was working toward that goal, right? It wouldn't make sense for the Confeds to waste resources directly intervening on Mar Sara at all since they could just attract millions more Zerg to it if they wanted to at any time and could still benefit from the Protoss incinerating the planet if their real aim was to see the colony destroyed.

I just mean that it's a good question that doesn't have any obvious answers, though I could make some up if you insist. Despite this, I'd say it's more reasonable than the alternative.

My bad. Still, the entirety of the Swarm had already arrived in orbit over Aiur when the quote was made which means she wasn't still necessary to start the invasion. There's nothing that says no decisive action of any kind against the Protoss is possible without Kerrigan just as there's nothing with the Overmind going to Aiur that denies that Kerrigan may still be the key to defeating the Protoss. Like I said with my interpretation, Kerrigan is a key to victory over the Protoss insofar as her very existence within the Swarm is what is more important to the Overmind and not that she goes to a place where there's more Protoss to fight. In the campaign, all that is established regarding her exact practical importance is filtered through the Overmind's rhetoric which is non-specific. Also, not all cerebrates seem to agree that Kerrigan is vitally important in terms of taking on Protoss (Zasz being the obvious one but even Daggoth believes it can take on Protoss by itself while it tasks Kerrigan to mop-up the Garm Brood).

You're grasping. By your reasoning there are no plot holes in StarCraft II. The entire narrative is about getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss, and about fighting the Protoss so the Overmind can evolve the perfect Swarm.

Turalyon

12-21-2015, 03:14 AM

You're the one trying to justify Mengsk's attack on the basis that this would somehow harm the Zerg

What? That's not it at all. I'm saying it's reasonable to assume Mengsk is being practical/hedging his bets by making sure Kerrigan is dead so that the Zerg won't be a potential (and very real) threat later. The threat is Kerrigan - who uses the Zerg as her modus operandi. She is still alive and can still use the Zerg and is therefore still a threat now as she was then, even despite being "deinfested" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean...).

You're grasping. By your reasoning there are no plot holes in StarCraft II.

How so? There are always plot-holes though there are some that are more noticeable and narrative destroying than others. I'm not denying a plothole, just questioning how bad (noticeable and narrative destroying) it really is.

The entire narrative is about getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss, and about fighting the Protoss so the Overmind can evolve the perfect Swarm.

You keep trying to simplify it like this but when you say "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss", you really mean "getting Kerrigan so she can fight Protoss on Aiur" (or some later clarification regarding "total Protoss defeat" or other). When I call you up on that, you then deny it when it's very clear that this is what you actually mean (your last few posts about rejecting the value of the Protoss that Kerrigan fights come to mind). Assuming that the general "get Kerrigan to fight Protoss" just naturally means "get Kerrigan to fight the majority of the Protoss at once" is flawed reasoning. When I attempt to clarify it/specify it/nut it out, you then dismiss me of going into minutaie when it is really just laying bare your assumptions.

Even aside all of this, if you'd open up your perspective a little bit, you'd realise that my position (no, I'm not talking about the Dark Templar and the lack of a mention regarding their importance, I mean that other interpretation I posited) actually still supports and incorporates this entire narrative. It's not as if you've been able to refute it in any capacity afterall .

FanaticTemplar

12-21-2015, 06:24 PM

What? That's not it at all. I'm saying it's reasonable to assume Mengsk is being practical/hedging his bets by making sure Kerrigan is dead so that the Zerg won't be a potential (and very real) threat later. The threat is Kerrigan - who uses the Zerg as her modus operandi. She is still alive and can still use the Zerg and is therefore still a threat now as she was then, even despite being "deinfested" (whatever the hell that's supposed to mean...).

You haven't established how the Zerg are supposed to not be a threat without Kerrigan. They certainly were before Kerrigan.

How so? There are always plot-holes though there are some that are more noticeable and narrative destroying than others. I'm not denying a plothole, just questioning how bad (noticeable and narrative destroying) it really is.

It's what ties the entire narrative together.

You keep trying to simplify it like this but when you say "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss", you really mean "getting Kerrigan so she can fight Protoss on Aiur" (or some later clarification regarding "total Protoss defeat" or other). When I call you up on that, you then deny it when it's very clear that this is what you actually mean (your last few posts about rejecting the value of the Protoss that Kerrigan fights come to mind). Assuming that the general "get Kerrigan to fight Protoss" just naturally means "get Kerrigan to fight the majority of the Protoss at once" is flawed reasoning. When I attempt to clarify it/specify it/nut it out, you then dismiss me of going into minutaie when it is really just laying bare your assumptions.

When I say "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss", I really mean "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss, and fight the Protoss so the Overmind can evolve the perfect Swarm", exactly like I just said. We know what the Overmind's objective was, and it is why it crossed the entire galaxy, shaping the Swarm as it went. We know that it feared the Protoss' power and went to humanity to obtain a determinant in its inevitable conflict with the Protoss. We know that Aiur is the only place where the Overmind can achieve its goal. We know that Kerrigan is supposed to lead the Overmind's minions to complete domination over the Protoss. This is all quite straightforward.

Even aside all of this, if you'd open up your perspective a little bit, you'd realise that my position (no, I'm not talking about the Dark Templar and the lack of a mention regarding their importance, I mean that other interpretation I posited) actually still supports and incorporates this entire narrative. It's not as if you've been able to refute it in any capacity afterall .

Refute what? You've provided no backing for your hypothesis, you just shaped it to lead to your desired conclusion. The text says that the Overmind needed a counter to the Protoss' actual, physical power, and you'd want me to believe that he didn't need an actual, physical counter but just a symbolic one because... what? The text says that the Overmind believed Kerrigan would be the undoing of the Swarm's enemies, and you'd want me to believe that this only means she will be a symbolic undoing of the Swarm's enemies because... what? The text says that Kerrigan will lead the Overmind's minions to complete domination of the Protoss, and you'd want me to believe that she won't actually be leading them but merely being moral support because... what? More than that, you want me to believe that the Overmind wanted a symbol that would not fight directly, but merely inspire minions to fight on her behalf, and then created a frenzied berserker constantly annoyed at enemies who don't fight her directly and let their minions do the fighting instead? Your position does not support and incorporate the entire narrative, and even if it did, it would have to be actually stated in the story. This is the game's main narrative, you can't just throw out any nonsense and expect the audience to write your story for you. If you want me to accept this position of yours, you're the one who needs to back it up.

Turalyon

12-22-2015, 07:37 AM

You haven't established how the Zerg are supposed to not be a threat without Kerrigan. They certainly were before Kerrigan.

Huh, I'm not getting this. You're saying the Zerg were not a perceived threat before Kerrigan? That... doesn't make sense. :confused:

It's either that or you're expecting that Mengsk thinks the Zerg are more threatening with Kerrigan being confirmed dead than they are with Kerrigan still being alive and still being able to control them as reason not to keep on trying to kill her. I would have no idea why Mengsk would even think more of the former than the latter.

It's what ties the entire narrative together.

I was asking why does my reasoning equate to saying their are no plot-holes in Sc2? Weren't sure if you were serious or using hyperbole to overgeneralise.

When I say "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss", I really mean "getting Kerrigan so she can fight the Protoss, and fight the Protoss so the Overmind can evolve the perfect Swarm", exactly like I just said. We know what the Overmind's objective was, and it is why it crossed the entire galaxy, shaping the Swarm as it went. We know that it feared the Protoss' power and went to humanity to obtain a determinant in its inevitable conflict with the Protoss. We know that Aiur is the only place where the Overmind can achieve its goal. We know that Kerrigan is supposed to lead the Overmind's minions to complete domination over the Protoss. This is all quite straightforward.

What makes you think Aiur is the only place it can achieve its goal or that Kerrigan must fight there at that exact immediate time? The general mandate for obtaining Kerrigan is to just help fight Protoss in furtherance of the ultimate goal to assimilate Protoss, not that the only way the ultimate goal can be achieved is if Kerrigan is obtained to fight on Aiur immediately.

The text says that the Overmind needed a counter to the Protoss' actual, physical power, and you'd want me to believe that he didn't need an actual, physical counter but just a symbolic one because... what?

The manual narrator is an impartial third-party accounting of what the Overmind desires - it never relates objectively that the Overmind needed a counter, only that it subjectively needed a counter. The issue about how to deal with the Protoss is an internal one. The Overmind's "need" is a psychological one for itself. Reductively speaking, Kerrigan is analagous to a "security blanket/comfort object" for the Overmind. It only nears despair before it finds humanity, then it stops feeling that once it discovers that out and finally feels way overconfident once it has the Chrysalis. In the campaign, the Overmind is never fearful of engaging the Protoss nor feels that it can't fight/beat them from the get go. Mind you, all of this in no way denies the actual objective value of having, wanting or using such a "comfort object".

The text says that the Overmind believed Kerrigan would be the undoing of the Swarm's enemies, and you'd want me to believe that this only means she will be a symbolic undoing of the Swarm's enemies because... what?

The Overmind is ensconced in it's own belief, overconfidence and rhetoric. It likes to make pronouncements of things that are yet to happen as if they are predetermined/happening right now. Funny how all of it kinda turned out for it...

The text says that Kerrigan will lead the Overmind's minions to complete domination of the Protoss, and you'd want me to believe that she won't actually be leading them but merely being moral support because... what?

Nope. Never denied she wasn't going to physically lead them. Never denied that she isn't, can't and won't either. Besides, the initial invasion of Aiur and forming a beachhead hardly qualifies as the "complete domination of the Protoss" so it's not a necessity that she be there at that particular moment nor does it deny the opportunity of her doing so later.

More than that, you want me to believe that the Overmind wanted a symbol that would not fight directly, but merely inspire minions to fight on her behalf, and then created a frenzied berserker constantly annoyed at enemies who don't fight her directly and let their minions do the fighting instead?

Nope. Never denied she wouldn't fight directly neither.

Your position does not support and incorporate the entire narrative, and even if it did, it would have to be actually stated in the story.

The story never actually states that the invasion of Aiur is the final crushing blow against the Protoss that Kerrigan will specifically oversee either. You're relying on assumptions, just like I am.