Drake's LotV Review/Recap [SPOILERIFFIC]

[Drake Clawfang]

Again, SPOILERS ABOUND, BOYS!

Characters

Let's get this out of the way first: Alarak is the best thing to come from this game. He's such a bloodthirsty troll.

"Oh Artanis, will you just kill something already, you're boring me."
"You're a violent prick."
"No shit, Sherlock."

Something that felt different from the previous two campaigns; the conversations contributed to character. They didn't just swap exposition, they talked about their feelings about things that had happened. Also, there were idle conversations if you just wait in the rooms, which is a nice touch. Rohana was bland but she had a purpose, and she looked distinctly ancient with her style of clothing. Vorazun was okay, Karax was a cool guy. Fenix was mostly fanservice, but he had a purpose and an arc.

And then Artanis. Artie was pretty well-characterized, I think. He doesn't see himself as the wise and mighty leader others thing he can be, but he can be, and he becomes that. I also liked how he kept reminding folks "this is gonna end the galaxy; now's the time to put aside the petty in-fighting and unite against Amon, or we're all gonna die."

Stukov got his moment to flip off Duran at last, was cool that Matt's an Admiral now. Swann had one scene and made it fun and memorable. What do you think, Skippy?

"I'm not sure if it's Skippy or Artie that offends me more."

While you ponder it, Dickhead, tell me what you think of the characters.

"I'm thinking I don't know where Urun and Kaldalis went. Killing off Mohander in a short story was a waste, but at least we addressed him."

Join the club, I'm wondering where Jake Ramsay is.

Amon... well, they gave him a bit more than "mwahaha, the galaxy will be mine!" Learning so much about the Xel'naga's way of creating life, you do understand where he's coming from. The Xel'naga's artificial cycle of rebirth is a defiance of the natural order. Life, itself, is defiance of the natural order. You of course want life to go on, but when it's the way of things, when left to their own design, to do things differently... hm.

Units

I love the variety of units. The problem with Heart of the Swarm's unit mechanics is that unit evolutions usually just made each unit do what they do better, and their upgrades were for the same, often inconsequential stat boosts.

Here, each unit feels different. The three Immortal variants, for instance; you can take the pure durability route with hardened shield, give them Shadow Cannon for taking down prime targets, or give them the Vanguard for AoE. Sentries are supporters, but each variant has distinctly different abilities to make them different kinds of supporters. There's a lot of replayability here, I'm of course gonna replay for all achievements eventually, and I want to experiment with different unit compositions for fun. The downfall is that some units fell shoehorned in, like the Corsair shoved in as a Phoenix alt, or the three options didn't make sense, like the Carrier-Tempest-Mothership all filling the role of "heavy support flyer."

Also, somewhere in a corner, the Scout pilot is hugging his knees crying "why does no one like me? why didn't I get to be in the campaign?"

I also liked the lore for each unit explaining why you have it. Why are Dragoons suddenly back? Because they were on the Spear of Adun when we found it. Why are there Aiur Dark Templar? They only just came about after the planet's fall.

Missions

The missions were a mixed bag. On the one hand, a lot of them were truly epic, like the Shakuras temple defense: hold out for billions of Zerg to arrive before we blow this pop stand and kill them all now that they're here. The Tal'darim duel between Alarak and Ma'lash was boring for gameplay, but cool for concept. The destruction of the crystals on Aiur was cool if only to visit places we remember from the first game. The mission was also cool for all our characters taking the field to fight, save for Rohana but she's lame anyway.

On the other hand, far too many missions seemed to be in the same mold: "destroy these three/four target structures / defend these three/four target structures". Yeah, there's a lot of missions like those throughout the trilogy, but here it seemed like almost every mission was that mold. The game needed more variety.

I have mixed feelings on the Artanis-Kerrigan mission. On the one hand, it was cool to see them team up and it was fun. On the other hand it seems more like something you'd see in an RPG game, fighting through a temple killing guardians to unlock doors deeper within.

One note I did like that I'll fit in somewhere: the devs clearly did not feel shackled to Artanis as the main character. We took control of Karax, Vorazun, and in the opening Aiur missions we had Zeratul. There was some cool story and gameplay integration at times, and it went well, like Zeratul calling out to Selendis and not getting an answer, and the Spear of Adun slowly being disabled during the last stand on Aiur.

Also, said last stand was glorious. I loved how much of Artie's speech paraphrased In Utter Darkness, and it mirrored that mission, but instead of defending to the last man in a glorious final stand, they were defending their hope against Amon. And they were truly united as one people. The other three taking part seemed like the end of HotS, but done better. The penultimate mission also reminded me of the end of the original Starcraft, with all these units taking up assault positions around the Overmind. Also, a nice, sick little touch with Amon using the Overmind's carcass as his nesting ground.

Story

Ho boy... I do feel this is the Episode III in the sense of Star Wars: the best of the trilogy, they pulled it together for the finale. Story good? I dunno. Better than the first two games? Absolutely.

Things happened that impacted characters, and we saw it impact them. Characters did things to advance the plot other than spout exposition and give you units at random. Everyone had their moment to be cool. There were lots of badass moments, there were some things I didn't see coming, and there was emotion. Sometimes the Protoss seem to take a lot in stride and then move on. But that's the point of the story. They are the Protoss: they will weather any storm, endure any hardship, to continue on. They are warriors, and no matter how much grief and anguish they suffer, they will not give up. If anything, they'll just fight harder next time. The story showed that well, and also showed their struggle to give up their old traditions to do so. The legacy of the Protoss was the theme here, their true legacy: they are Templar, the Firstborn. They never give up, and never stop fighting. More than any ritual or uniform or architectural designs, that is the true legacy of their people, and the one trait they all share.

However, there is one big problem with the story...

Kerrigan

When she showed up on Ulnar was the first time I really began to dislike things. In the span of about thirty seconds, here were my thoughts:

"What? The mural shows the corruption of the Khala and the destruction of Shakuras? The fuck is - KERRIGAN? Oh come on, there's foresight of what's gonna happen because you're smart, and then there's outright foreseeing the future! Who made that mural, how did the Xel'naga know Kerrigan would look like that? Wait, Kerrigan is here? The fuck did she come from? Did the Protoss not notice the zerg here? How did Kerrigan find out about this place? Oh fuck me, don't do this to me, Blizzard, the game was good up until now!"

Really, Kerrigan's presence is entirely unneeded. Her arrival did not advance the plot in any way, you could just cut out Kerrigan from those missions and the story would not change. The only reason she's there is for the symbolicness of Essence and Form working together, but Amon has all three races and hybrid wandering the temple freely, so that doesn't work.

Then...

Epilogue

Blizzard is so in love with Kerrigan, that they're determined to make her a hero even though the reason fans love her is because she used to be such a good villain. Kerrigan is so mellow in this game it's a real jarring shift from the end of HotS and Whispers of Oblivion. And the only reason she's that way is because Blizzard wants us to cheer when she ascends to be a Xel'naga. I wasn't. Amon whispers "she's unworthy of the power, how do you know you can trust her with it?" And I'm like "I know, but the story doesn't give me a choice." Wasn't the whole point of the Form/Essence thing that the two have to unite to become Xel'naga, so shouldn't Kerrigan need a Protoss to become one with? If she can take on the Xel'naga essence herself, why are the Protoss even here? Why have the protoss been demoted to supporting heroes in the climax of their own fucking game!?

And then Kerrigan becomes The Phoenix. And she's naked, because. I found it hilarious this all-powerful Xel'naga was rather underwhelming, most of Xel'Kerrigan's (trademark) abilities were just buffed-up forms of her HotS powers. Remember the Odin? Holy crap did that thing leave an impression, one-shotting most units, doing splash damage, a bombardment to kill anything, 2500 HP, more than entire buildings. That's what Kerrigan should have been: 5000 HP, 50 armor, shrugging off attacks like they're bug bites and zapping five enemies at once with an AoE-100 damage normal attack. Instead, she just gained 10 more Kerrigan levels to reach Level 80, and is still easily killed by only slightly superior numbers. Also, she's a ground unit so she can't even pass over gaps in the ground. I guess the glowing wings and floating are just for show.

Gameplay was okay for the epilogue. I cheered to see all three races present, and each mission fit each race's style: the protoss were the unrelenting deathball pushing ever forward, the terrans turtled in to endure the endless assault of enemies, and the zerg created the large mobile army to hunt down the enemy objectives moving around the map. It was cool. I loved Stukov getting closure on Duran, that was awesome. The final mission was disappointing, though, no grand epic battle against a giant hero unit that we need an army to take down? No 100,000 HP Amon unit marching across the map? Bah.

The reveal that Tassadar's spirit was a ploy by a Xel'naga to get the Protoss to trust him is a huge saving throw on Blizzard's part, and successfully retcons the Overmind's controversial motivations. As far as we know now, the Overmind never had a grand vision of the future, and didn't groom Kerrigan specifically to overthrow the Xel'naga. Sure, that's what we've been told before, but who told us that? Zeratul, who got it from "Tassadar," who was just telling Zeratul what he needed to hear in order for him to do what Ouros wanted him to do. More likely Ouros saw Kerrigan was suitable to bear his essence and made up the vision to convince the heroes to let Kerrigan live so she could become his vessel to fight Amon. And of course, the much more obvious retcon that Tassadar is dead and no, we have not been talking to his Force Ghost, it was a trick.

It's like you can see Blizzard going "we wrote ourselves into a corner with the Overmind and Tassadar crap, fortunately we can write in a trap door and escape to make it better." Okay, the temple on Ulnar still has Kerrigan's inage in it, but then, Ulnar is on the edge of the Void: maybe Ouros just made her visage on that stone to convince Artanis of her value. It's plausible.

And then the ending... I didn't mind it. The Raynor thing was obviously left open to interpretation. Did he become a Xel'naga, did Kerrigan return to him and they went off alone together, did he just have a vision of her and left to go find her? Who knows. The ending also leaves it open for more games: the zerg are still out there are aren't on all-good terms with folks, the Protoss have an uneasy truce, the Terrans are doing well but Valerian won't live forever.


As a whole: Legacy of the Swarm is a satisfying end to the trilogy for me. The gameplay is solid, though the mission structure tired at this point, the story is much improved, though still with problems, especially in the epilogue, and most of the plot threads and unanswered questions were addressed.

[Nissa]

Again, SPOILERS ABOUND, BOYS!

....And girl?

Well, I'm going to withhold judgement until I see a full let's play, but I'll throw a comment or two out there.

I can pretty much guarantee you that the chick in the end was Nova. Think about it. She's a Kerri clone, and she's getting downloadable missions. Blizz is going to explain how she gets to that scene in the missions.

They re-retconned a retcon? Now that's pro! It gives me hope that I can disregard SC2 lore at will.

Let us not speak of the Kerrigan abomination. To think that her arc ended this way...that wasn't Kerrigan. That was a blood elf clone, I dunno.

I gotta say, I'm more than appalled at the whole "Khala is bad" thing. While it makes sense in a way (after re-reading the original Starcraft manual, that is), it also narrows Protoss culture. BW was all about the attempt to unite the light and dark sides of the Protoss. I've been waiting for years for the Judicator and Khalai castes to get some development, and for that matter DTs and Templar aren't that deep either. Instead of enriching 'Toss culture, they've effectively cut off (har har) an interesting subsection of people who, when they bother appearing in novels and such, are always narrow-minded jerks, as though Judicator are specifically genetically culled to be the worst people ever. Aldaris was complex! Can't they have some complex Judicator?

Tell me more of the Stukov stuff, please.

[Turalyon]

Seems like you're saying the ending sucks mainly because it feels like "stuff is happening". I'm not surprised since that is what all Sc2's story amounts to really.

Anyhoo, your review on the missions needs beefing up since you're focusing on how the story impacts the mission rather than how they play. I want to know how the variety of missions and mission gimmicks fare compared to WoL (because WoL was fun to play)? Are they more replayable than compared to HotS? How many build base and destroy enemy-type missions are there? Are they centred around a core unit or is their some flexibility in how a mission plays out?

[NikoMyCousin]

Loved it, unlike the other 2 campaigns this didn't go through any sort of insufferable lull phases where you hate everyone in the game.


I actually like the idea of Kerrigan being human again, if that's what's being interpreted. Her story is probably finished but in future Starcraft games it would've been cool to see her fight the UED.

[ragnarok]

Loved it, unlike the other 2 campaigns this didn't go through any sort of insufferable lull phases where you hate everyone in the game.


I actually like the idea of Kerrigan being human again, if that's what's being interpreted. Her story is probably finished but in future Starcraft games it would've been cool to see her fight the UED.


Returning her to humanity is acceptable only if she EARNS redemption. It's not supposed to be simply handed to her. Artanis's reaction towards her makes it seem like the Protoss completely forget all that happened in the BW, and that's total BS.

[DarthYam]

Returning her to humanity is acceptable only if she EARNS redemption. It's not supposed to be simply handed to her. Artanis's reaction towards her makes it seem like the Protoss completely forget all that happened in the BW, and that's total BS.

Kerrigan herself acknowledged that she has blood on her hands (it's why she agreed to the process even if it meant loosing the swarm and Jim).

I think that the entire trilogy has been good ideas, bad execution.

Raynor facing his past and regaining the fire he once had? Great.
Kerrigan having to try and redeem herself or being conflicted between getting revenge and not becoming a monster? Great. Hell I'll say the overall idea (she slips back into evil when she has nothing left, is forced to face what she becomes and finally becomes a genuine hero) was fine. Kerrigan was pretty much a comic book villain in brood war that I couldn't get into so even at her worst in HOTS she was more interesting (since her actions are more "so obsessed with vengeance she doesn't care".) The problem is that it was schizophrenic.

Amon got some degree of depth. He genuinely thinks that by breaking the infinite cycle he's ending conflict and suffering. The problem is that by condemning other races to oblivion he's just causing more suffering.

I don't even mind the overmind retcon too much (since it clears up why the hell the overmind not only left Kerrigan behind after talking about how she would be "his ultimate weapon against the protoss" but did so even after the dark templar arrived on char"). Him getting around the Dark Voices commands could be him just finding a loophole in the commands (i.e finding a way to technically subvert and fulfill the command at the same time).

In all honesty I say that the ending was good enough, though I would have just had the final battle occur as part of the main story

[Turalyon]

Amon got some degree of depth. He genuinely thinks that by breaking the infinite cycle he's ending conflict and suffering. The problem is that by condemning other races to oblivion he's just causing more suffering.

Why is the infinite cycle a bad thing again? As far as I know, the universe seemed to be doing fine until Amon caused the events of Starcraft. And isn't the creation of new Xel'Naga supposed to take many more millenia where the purity of essence and form are so supposed to naturally merge with mutual cooperation from both parties? Doesn't sound like the infinite cycle has that much conflict and suffering in comparison to me.


I don't even mind the overmind retcon too much (since it clears up why the hell the overmind not only left Kerrigan behind after talking about how she would be "his ultimate weapon against the protoss" but did so even after the dark templar arrived on char"). Him getting around the Dark Voices commands could be him just finding a loophole in the commands (i.e finding a way to technically subvert and fulfill the command at the same time).

Apparently, there is no Overmind retcon now since it was revealed that Ghost Tassadar in WoL was fake and that it was some Xel'Naga trick.

The "plothole" you mention in Sc1 you've already resolved without even realising. Kerrigan was the ultimate weapon against the Protoss in that she was left to fight the only element of the Protoss that could actually harm the Zerg - the Dark Templar. The Overmind was not leaving Kerrigan behind on Char to protect or preserve her, it was leaving her in mortal danger against the greatest threat it had yet encountered and entrusted her to kill them so that they wouldn't follow it to Aiur, where there are no Dark Templar. It was actually a great tactical move, except it didn't foresee that Kerrigan would actually fail in her task of killing the Dark Templar and Tassadar on Char - ultimately leading to its demise.

[Robear]

All of the spoilers!

I thought it was necessary for Kerrigan to have a strong involvement, because HotS ended with her going off to fight Amon. Since the Protoss here were also going off to fight Amon, they had to run into each other— and so I was very confused when the main campaign ended with Amon being banished so easily without Kerrigan's help, and then they had the seemingly happy Protoss ending cinematic.

So in that sense I thought the epilogue was very necessary.

I also liked the design of the Xel'naga a lot. Their dead bodies in an ancient room in that one mission reminded me of the space jockey in the original Alien (not Prometheus), and I loved that they were really big. A good counter to the silly tendency of Aliens including the Protoss all being humanoid and pretty much a little bigger or a little smaller than humans, and much better than people's hybrid assumptions in fan art or whatever.

Back to the Campaign, again being able to play missions out of order really weakens their writing at times, which is too bad. After the Aiur stuff, you can choose to go to Korhal to pick up the artifact or Shakuras to check in on the rest of the Protoss. And you can choose to go dick around on Korhal for a couple missions stave of Amon's forces, bond with Raynor a little, have some nice emotional moments about dead humans... And then when you do go to Shakuras you find out it's already overrun, and millions of Protoss have died. I know that Artanis respects humans more than a lot of Protoss do or did (Rohana's point of view), but this should have devastated him. He not only lost his templar forces to Amon, but by going and helping the terrans he left Shakuras undefended and countless, irreplaceable lives were lost. He mourns for Zeratul? Surely he knew others on Shakuras as well. A lot of Dark Templar evacuate, but obviously not all of them, and that's where all the Khalai civilians lived, who are so dead. He should be regretting the decision to not immediately return to evacuate Shakuras for the rest of the campaign.

But of course, there's no super bitter defeatist regretful Artanis in future missions, because in someone else's playthrough he did return to Shakuras immediately! And Amon would still beat him there, and there would have been nothing he could have done, so it would be okay to feel less bad. And then he would still show up in time to save Korhal and hang out with Raynor.

I have more to say about other parts of it, will return later today!

[DarthYam]

Why is the infinite cycle a bad thing again? As far as I know, the universe seemed to be doing fine until Amon caused the events of Starcraft. And isn't the creation of new Xel'Naga supposed to take many more millenia where the purity of essence and form are so supposed to naturally merge with mutual cooperation from both parties? Doesn't sound like the infinite cycle has that much conflict and suffering in comparison to me.



Apparently, there is no Overmind retcon now since it was revealed that Ghost Tassadar in WoL was fake and that it was some Xel'Naga trick.

The "plothole" you mention in Sc1 you've already resolved without even realising. Kerrigan was the ultimate weapon against the Protoss in that she was left to fight the only element of the Protoss that could actually harm the Zerg - the Dark Templar. The Overmind was not leaving Kerrigan behind on Char to protect or preserve her, it was leaving her in mortal danger against the greatest threat it had yet encountered and entrusted her to kill them so that they wouldn't follow it to Aiur, where there are no Dark Templar. It was actually a great tactical move, except it didn't foresee that Kerrigan would actually fail in her task of killing the Dark Templar and Tassadar on Char - ultimately leading to its demise.

1.) My point is that he thought he was doing a good thing. He wasn't doing it for the sake of mustache twirling villainy. Whether the infinite cycle was so bad or if Amon was deluding himself doesn't change that his underlying motives were based on relatively benevolent intentions (compared to Mengsk who just wanted power)

2.) I'd be more willing to believe that if after it became apparent that the dark templar were on Aiur (given the civil war going on the overmind probably would have noticed, and definately by the time of shadow hunters) the Overmind still left her behind on Char. From a dramatic standpoint he goes on about how she will help him assimilate the protoss, yet after Aldaris saves Zeratul and Tassadar's bacon she vanishes from the story.

[Nissa]

1) technically, that's a retcon. He was pretty mustache-y in HotS/WoL. That, and I don't get why mustache-y villains can't be fun. Maybe Amon's better not being one, but there are good ones out there. Like Shang Tsung, for example.

2) I actually like how Kerri disappears from the story at that point. The storytelling in SC/BW was about everyone in the Sector, not merely a couple of MCs. Kerri herself is the Overmind's pet project, but not his entire objective. That and I don't remember him saying anything directly about her assimilating Protoss -- that end was more about just assimilating humanity in general, so once Kerrigan's genetics are uploaded into the swarm, they technically don't need her for that purpose anymore. It's probable the Overmind had other uses for her, or in general just wanted to play around with having a human servant with a degree of free will, and see what happened.

[TheEconomist]

Thoughts so far. I'm slugging through Brutal while refusing to do the easy strats, so I'm behind.

The story focuses on conflict, therefore, an immense improvement regardless of the writing being basically the same.

The game play is good, still a decent challenge so far on brutal, HotS was a disappointment.

Protoss are still comic relief in a lot of ways, the twists still revolve around how much they mess up.


Well, I'm going to withhold judgement until I see a full let's play, but I'll throw a comment or two out there.

You could always actually just play the game lol

[Drake Clawfang]

Seems like you're saying the ending sucks mainly because it feels like "stuff is happening". I'm not surprised since that is what all Sc2's story amounts to really.

No, the ending doesn't suck. The last mission is a letdown, but the ending is fine.


Anyhoo, your review on the missions needs beefing up since you're focusing on how the story impacts the mission rather than how they play. I want to know how the variety of missions and mission gimmicks fare compared to WoL (because WoL was fun to play)? Are they more replayable than compared to HotS? How many build base and destroy enemy-type missions are there? Are they centred around a core unit or is their some flexibility in how a mission plays out?

I did address that? Most of the missions fit the same mold, unfortunately: "destroy or defend these three/four key structures." Some have more creative mechanics, but objective wise that's almost universally what you're tossed. Here's a rundown of them all:

*For Aiur!: The first mission, get a huge force of Protoss and free up the three warp conduits. Bonus objective, destroy the hatcheries.
*The Growing Shadow: A Zeratul mission and pretty much just the second prophecy mission again. Optional objective, find the void pylons for some free units each.
*Spear of Adun: Destroy the zerg infestation around the power cells to awaken the Spear of Adun (nice touch: it's resting beneath the Heart of the Conclave). Bonus objective, power up the warp gates.
*Sky Shield: Attack and secure the damaged stabaliziers to stop the platform's descent, as you save each once time is added to the countdown before impact. Bonus objective, destroy EMP generators.
*Brothers In Arms: Destroy the enemy base, along the way save some research stations to get medics and sci vessels to support you. Though this does have an interesting mechanic: they're using the Xel'naga artifact (FYI, that's the Keystone mentioned before) to create disruptions that stun Terrans, and Raynor and Valerian are allying you with their own bases. So when a disruption hits, you have free reign to wail on the Terrans mercilessly, but the Hybrid come out to play and you have to defend Raynor and Valerian from them.
Forbidden Weapon: Reach the technology vault before the Tal'darim purification beam weaves its way across the map to destroy it (the beam is moving across the map and kills shit it hits, including you if you don't avoid it). Along the way retrieve some solarite samples. Also you can find Sentries in stasis across the map and reactivate them.
Amon's Reach: Reactivate the launch bays to evac Shakuras while defending the warp conduit they're escaping to. Also void thrashers spawn, siege-type hybrids, kill them to defend the conduit. Along the way find some solarite caches.
Last Stand: A highlight of the campaign. Destroy the three Zenith Stones holding the Xel'naga Temple's energies in check. When they're gone, hold out for the counter to reach 1 billion zerg on Shakuras, then blow the temple to kill them all. Or hold out for 1.5 billion as Karax retrieves some solarite from inside the temple.
Temple of Unification: Destroy Amon's forces occupying the celestial locks and hold them until you have them all. Also there's a giant Tal'darim warp prism, kill it for its solarite core.
The Infinite Cycle: The Artie and Kerry mission where they team up to fight through the temple, an installation mission. Along the way find some Xel'naga relics for solarite.
Harbinger of Oblivion: Destroy the void crystals before the rising void energy destroys Kerrigan's bases. Along the way find some Xel'naga vessels that have solarite.
Unsealing the Past: The Purifier Megalith will automatically seek out the stasis locks, provide units to clear the way for it to each of them (basically, it's the Odin mission again). Along the way destroy some power cores with Solarite.
Purification: Destroy the null circuits in each quadrant to reactivate part of the Purifier army. Each three you destroy in the same area, some Purifiers come online and attack and wipe out the Zerg in their quadrant.
Templar's Charge: Using primarily aerial forces, hunt down and destroy the power cores. Along the way destroy the stasis chambers. However, the mission does have a unique mechanic: your base is on a moving platform on tracks between asteroids with mineral caches, and when your original base runs out due to low starting resources, you can physically move the platform and your entire base on it down the tracks to the next field. However it doesn't amount to much in practice, it just means ground units are unreliable (you get the Carrier in this mission) and if your base is attacked you can move it down the tracks for safety while your Carriers fly back for defense.
Steps of the Rite: Destroy Ma'lash's four guardians, along the way destroy some Tal'darim motherships for solarite. The mechanic here is Terrazine fog, when it grows thick, rifts to the Void open and spectres of units pop out and attack, think the Shadows of the Void in the prologue but for all three races.
Rak'shir: Another highlight of the campaign and a more creative mission. Alarak and Ma'lash are dueling back and forth on a carpet that runs between two pits on opposite sides of the map: naturally, push the other back into the pit. By the rules of the duel, no one can interfere directly. However, supporters can lend their psionic energy to the duelist they favor to power them up. Thus, supply Alarak with an army to boost his power and let him push Ma'lash back, while killing the Tal'darim that come to support Ma'lash before he can push Alarak back. Also kill some Slayn beasts that shit out solarite. No, really: Karax says solarite appears to be a "byproduct" of their unusual digestive system, and Artanis realizes what he means and is squicked out.
Templar's Return: Another highlight, take control of pairs of heroes as they each separately destroy the power structures that create Aiur's psi-matrix. This is the "everyone has their chance to be awesome" bit; Alarak and Vorazun just charge in slaughtering while Vorazun uses shadow powers to slip by some stuff, Alarak gets an awesome moment I won't ruin (mostly because, if you haven't picked up on it yet, he's the best part of the campaign so there's other awesome moments I can talk about), Karax uses his understanding of Khala stuff to reverse Amon's control of robotic units and structures to build an army to assault their objective with Fenix, and Artanis leads an expedition into the Xel'naga caves rescuing reinforcements from the other three tribes along the way.
The Host: Destroy the Void Shards, optionally clear out some positions for the other three tribes to land and help you. Again, a nice touch here: Amon built the containment unit that is powering up his primary host body... on the carcass of the Overmind, so he could absorb energy and body mass from it as needed.
Salvation: Basically the final WoL mission again, defend the Keystone against an onslaught of enemies and some specialized enemy waves. Also the three tribes help you here by each defending an entrance while Artie/You defend the Keystone itself, but you can of course station defenses and defenders alongside them.

The epilogue is simply, too.

Mission 1 - take control of the protoss and push north to Narud, along the way the zerg and terrans help you, as you clear out enemies they move their position ahead.
Mission 2 - take control of the terrans and basically do the laser drill mission combined with the artifact mission: defend Kerrigan (Artie and Zagara have their bases, too) until she fully powers up, and if needed use her celestial beam to kill shit. The only catch is that when she attacks she diverts her focus from powering up, pausing the charge-up, so you can't use her willy-nilly.
Mission 3 - take control of the zerg and hunt down and destroy the seven void crystals that spawn around the map at regular intervals. Raynor and Artie have their own bases to help you.

So yeah, as I said, while there's some more fun mechanics in them, most missions are "attack/defend these key buildings."


Tell me more of the Stukov stuff, please.

Narud is alive in the Void: he's a Xel'naga, and by their nature their spirit returns to the Void when their physical form is destroyed. The actual confrontation, go to the 25 minute mark in this video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU0q4g62024

[DarthYam]

1) technically, that's a retcon. He was pretty mustache-y in HotS/WoL. That, and I don't get why mustache-y villains can't be fun. Maybe Amon's better not being one, but there are good ones out there. Like Shang Tsung, for example.

2) I actually like how Kerri disappears from the story at that point. The storytelling in SC/BW was about everyone in the Sector, not merely a couple of MCs. Kerri herself is the Overmind's pet project, but not his entire objective. That and I don't remember him saying anything directly about her assimilating Protoss -- that end was more about just assimilating humanity in general, so once Kerrigan's genetics are uploaded into the swarm, they technically don't need her for that purpose anymore. It's probable the Overmind had other uses for her, or in general just wanted to play around with having a human servant with a degree of free will, and see what happened.

The way the overmind talked about her implied that he saw her as more than a pet project. Also, I thought that in some ways it made the overmind smarter. He was basically a slave and he still managed to completely outplay his master and undermine his plans in the process.

Kerrigan becoming an anti heroine also worked. In the first game she's tough but has admirable qualities (She doesn't want to use the zerg on tarsonis even though the government basically made her life a living hell up until Mengsk freed her, whereas in Brood War she does horrible things largely for her amusement and on people who really never did anything to wrong her. Tassadar just humiliated her the one time, while the rest of the protoss didn't do a damn thing. As such the implication that the infestation process did something like supress morality or amplify violence and anger made sense and implied she wasn't entirely in control.)

[Drake Clawfang]

Also - if they're gonna do voice packs, we need an Alarak advisor. Think of the possibilities.

"Your minerals are as lacking as your tactics."
"A nuclear missile has been launched. Better run."
"Your forces are spilling blood as we speak."
"Our probes are being massacred. Return the favor."

[ragnarok]

Also - if they're gonna do voice packs, we need an Alarak advisor. Think of the possibilities.

"Your minerals are as lacking as your tactics."
"A nuclear missile has been launched. Better run."
"Your forces are spilling blood as we speak."
"Our probes are being massacred. Return the favor."

Pretty good, but I saw him more arrogant than that.

[Nissa]

Protoss are still comic relief in a lot of ways, the twists still revolve around how much they mess up.

Perhaps my single biggest problem with the whole sequel.


You could always actually just play the game lol

Dat cost money, friend.

[ragnarok]

Perhaps my single biggest problem with the whole sequel.



But that's been the flaw with the Protoss since SC1. Look how long it took the Conclave to finally see the errors of their ways.

[Turalyon]

Wasn't expecting a breakdown of all the missions though much obliged, Drake. Given that there are only so many mission gimmicks before everything looks samey and repetitive, I was just curious about whether the gameplay shows enough variety and replayability compared to the previous entries.


My point is that he thought he was doing a good thing. He wasn't doing it for the sake of mustache twirling villainy. Whether the infinite cycle was so bad or if Amon was deluding himself doesn't change that his underlying motives were based on relatively benevolent intentions (compared to Mengsk who just wanted power)

Thing is, it's one thing to be told that what he thought he was doing a good thing, it's another to make one empathise with that position. Sure, Mengsk is revealed to be quite craven in Sc1 but you can empathise with and understand why he rants at Raynor's "betrayal" of him in The Hammer Falls because all his efforts do actually unify the Terran people against the alien threats (which is a "good" thing in utilitarian terms) and Raynor's actions threaten to underdo all his work and render all the harsh action he had to approve to get to that point meaningless.

What about Amon? Do we have any tangible reason to explain why he thinks planning the murder of multiple alien species is somehow better than just leaving them alone? How are his intentions considered more belevolent (at any level) than the course of action he eventually took? Planning to murder and then vaguely defending it by saying it'd make the world better doesn't make a villain any more empathisable/different than one, for the same crime, who offers no reason or is forthrightly delighted (the "moustache-twirler") about it.


I'd be more willing to believe that if after it became apparent that the dark templar were on Aiur (given the civil war going on the overmind probably would have noticed, and definately by the time of shadow hunters) the Overmind still left her behind on Char. From a dramatic standpoint he goes on about how she will help him assimilate the protoss, yet after Aldaris saves Zeratul and Tassadar's bacon she vanishes from the story.

You have to remember that the Overmind is not omniscient and that your own knowledge of what's going on (and what went on in retrospect), being an audience member, does not mean all other characters should have your intimate knowledge as well. The Protoss civil war occurs over two missions which have no Zerg involvement in them whatsoever, so we can't assume the Overmind knows the DT are there. The fact that Kerrigan doesn't show up on Aiur could be further used as circumstantial evidence that the Overmind didn't know the DTs/Tassadar had arrived, because if it did, she would be recalled to Aiur to assist. Then again, the Protoss were effectively doing Kerrigan's job by subduing Tassadar and the DT such that if the Overmind did know what was going on, it probably didn't feel the need to call Kerrigan onto Aiur because everything seemingly was under control. There's no reason to think that the Overmind itself thought that it was in danger up until Shadow Hunters occurs. By then, it's way too late for the Overmind to call Kerrigan since the Protoss immediately follow that up with an attack on the Overmind itself. Also, for all we know, Kerrigan probably still thought the Dark Templar were still on Char and was trying to root them out after all this time since she was easily misled by Tassadar and the DT are tricky to find.

As to how Kerrigan is/is not helping the Overmind assimilate the Protoss, you have to take into the account the role she's been left with on Char. She's fighting the only legitimate threat against the Zerg, how is that considered not helping the Overmind in general?

[ragnarok]

What about Amon? Do we have any tangible reason to explain why he thinks planning the murder of multiple alien species is somehow better than just leaving them alone? How are his intentions considered more belevolent (at any level) than the course of action he eventually took? Planning to murder and then vaguely defending it by saying it'd make the world better doesn't make a villain any more empathisable/different than one, for the same crime, who offers no reason or is forthrightly delighted (the "moustache-twirler") about it.


It's not. Mainly he's doing it simply because he thinks he can, and that's a pitiful excuse for a nihilistic villain. At the very least if he was planning to wipe out all life simply because he wanted to see the universe burn, and wasn't after anything logical....

[drakolobo]

destroy the universe may have valid and logical reasons


https://youtu.be/1tag9Pm3qtA
https://youtu.be/G-rl0tfQO9E
"Why not?":Rodar los ojos:
"If I can destroy the universe, it has no right to exist":enojado:

logic sacrificing all the current generation of living things, it ends with the suffering throughout the ages to future would cumulatively, infinitely superior.
the suffering of a single generation, to ensure end of pain. is a matter of perspective.
Amon longevity certainly can contribute to think that is the only solution to end the suffering. Most beings must go through the whole process cycle, and apparently xelnaga are the only beneficiaries of the Ascension, hence considered amon benefactor destroy a cycle that will bring pain to countless living beings.

[FanaticTemplar]

I wish they'd kept writing their Raynor/Kerrigan romance instead of this.

[Nissa]

I wish they'd kept writing their Raynor/Kerrigan romance instead of this.

You joking or does somebody need a smack?

;)

[FanaticTemplar]

You joking or does somebody need a smack?

;)

I am absolutely serious. Writing their little romance thing kept them somewhat focused on the present and future, and on developing established character dynamics. Even back in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm, the parts I hated most were the ones dealing with Amon and his Hybrid - the Protoss prophecy missions, the Primal Zerg... Zeratul really became the harbinger of awful, awful things, incidentally. It's when they were developing their new cosmic threat of the week that they really brought the hatchet to existing lore with unprecedented zeal. Hell, in this story obsessed about the Xel'naga, they actually retconned the Xel'naga out of the existing story!

Or, hey, this whole 'Endless Cycle' thing that the entire story revolves around and superceded all interesting interactions in the setting? Before playing this game, I had a list of three things that I absolutely did not wish to happen in this game, but feared actually would. Least likely of those was that they would have to 'reawaken the Xel'naga' by fusing a Primal Zerg and a Protoss - I thought Kerrigan and Zeratul - to create a new Xel'naga. I'm counting this one as having happened even though the Kerrigan'naga was formed without Protoss essence. How do you destroy your entire lore to build up to this, and get it wrong? This isn't some old lore that was just retconned to exclude the Protoss, everything about the Cycle of Rebirth was created for StarCraft II. And they still couldn't get it right. Nevermind what they did to the old lore.

I can actually admire their bravery in moving forward with their Protoss - it's always tempting to stick with the existing material and never change, slowly stagnating away any interest in the concept - but such a move has to involve two things: respect for the past and an interesting new direction. They did neither of those things. You can't respect the past if you're retconning it all into being terrible so you can justify moving away from it, and what did we get from our 'new' Protoss in exchange for everything we lost? They're "united"? Original StarCraft gave us that story already, and it was better because Tassadar had to actually confront his own people and society, rather than just have them mind-controlled away by some stupid god. They're more worshipful of the military than ever before, subsuming all castes into the Templar and replacing their government with military authorities? Not only am I not certain that replacing a conservative theocratic regime with a military junta is an actual move forward, but the Protoss were already heavily into that warrior culture junk.

Honestly, what did we get from this change? What are our 'new' Protoss?

No, I have a headcanon where Wings of Liberty happened, and one where some elements of Heart of the Swarm make it through, but there is very little in this game that I intend to acknowledge.

[ragnarok]

You joking or does somebody need a smack?

;)

Not all of us supported the ending of killing her and go, "Raszagal sends her regards, may you burn in hell for all eternity."

Even your fic on ff.net didn't support that.

[Nissa]

Your logic is infallible, Fanatic, but I submit that the romance was about as bad. The natural way that the Raynor/Kerrigan relationship went in SC (that is, from friends, distrustful allies, outright enemies) was part of the tragedy. It was a personal representation of all the Sector-wide antagonism. I dunno, unless you wanna argue that if you pretend SC1 doesn't exist, the romance in and of itself could possibly work.

I honestly hate the end of the Khala. The Khala was never really clarified, not even in the novels. Sure, they claim that it makes Protoss "united" or something like that, but we have no idea what that really means -- it's never clear what the difference between the Khala and ordinary telepathy is. Getting rid of it effectively destroys a huge chunk of undiscovered narrative potential. I wanted to see Judicator characters be more than cheap antagonists, and get to be really complex. Unfortunately, that will never happen, because Blizz is so in love with the Dark Templar that anyone who isn't, has to be one. Laaaame.

Edit: Again, Rag, no idea what you're talking about.

[ragnarok]

Your logic is infallible, Fanatic, but I submit that the romance was about as bad. The natural way that the Raynor/Kerrigan relationship went in SC (that is, from friends, distrustful allies, outright enemies) was part of the tragedy. It was a personal representation of all the Sector-wide antagonism. I dunno, unless you wanna argue that if you pretend SC1 doesn't exist, the romance in and of itself could possibly work.

I honestly hate the end of the Khala. The Khala was never really clarified, not even in the novels. Sure, they claim that it makes Protoss "united" or something like that, but we have no idea what that really means -- it's never clear what the difference between the Khala and ordinary telepathy is. Getting rid of it effectively destroys a huge chunk of undiscovered narrative potential. I wanted to see Judicator characters be more than cheap antagonists, and get to be really complex. Unfortunately, that will never happen, because Blizz is so in love with the Dark Templar that anyone who isn't, has to be one. Laaaame.

Edit: Again, Rag, no idea what you're talking about.

This is why I'm hoping there'll be Protoss DLCs to explain how the Khala began. LotV would seem to imply Amon had a hand in its beginnings, contradictory to the DT Saga and what was written there.

[Drake Clawfang]

Well, it's not fully clear the Khala will never return. I doubt every single Protoss in existence across the sector had their cords severed, and newborns may still have them. For all we know come SC3 we could be seeing the dramatic irony of a reversal in attitudes: cutting your nerve cords is the norm, and those that keep their nerve cords and the Khala are the outcasts and pariahs.

I'm reminded of South Park's take on alcoholism, and that an alcoholic that never drinks never conquered their addiction, because they're still afraid of alcohol and it controls their life. True discipline is having a drink now and then, but knowing to stop before it becomes a problem. So it could be with the Protoss: is enforced rejection of the Khala any better socially than enforced acceptance of it?

[ragnarok]

Well, it's not fully clear the Khala will never return. I doubt every single Protoss in existence across the sector had their cords severed, and newborns may still have them. For all we know come SC3 we could be seeing the dramatic irony of a reversal in attitudes: cutting your nerve cords is the norm, and those that keep their nerve cords and the Khala are the outcasts and pariahs.

I thought Amon's actions corrupted EVERY Protoss who still had the chords. That was implied from what he was telling Zeratul (when he was in control of Artanis's body)

[Drake Clawfang]

I thought Amon's actions corrupted EVERY Protoss who still had the chords. That was implied from what he was telling Zeratul (when he was in control of Artanis's body)

Amon corrupted the Khala, but then they expelled him from it; before they all cut their cords, the Protoss came to their senses in the final cinematic once the Keystone went off.

[FanaticTemplar]

Your logic is infallible, Fanatic, but I submit that the romance was about as bad. The natural way that the Raynor/Kerrigan relationship went in SC (that is, from friends, distrustful allies, outright enemies) was part of the tragedy. It was a personal representation of all the Sector-wide antagonism. I dunno, unless you wanna argue that if you pretend SC1 doesn't exist, the romance in and of itself could possibly work.

I agree to an extent. The devolution of their relationship in Brood War was pretty good, and there's that bit in True Colors where you get the impression that Kerrigan realises how much she's lost and might even regret it, it's one of the occasional parts in Brood War I really liked. If they'd continued from that and had Raynor actually end it, that would have been a perfectly acceptable, reasonable and tragic conclusion to their character relationship. I never expected Raynor to stay on that angry high from the very moment after Kerrigan's betrayal, I expected him to feel sad about having to kill Kerrigan, but it was still something he had to do.

Using the Xel'naga Artifact to liberate her was a pretty clunky way to change that direction. In-universe, it makes perfect sense that Raynor would seize on this opportunity once he becomes aware of it, but from the narrative framework, it's a massive derailment. If that were all there was to it, I'd agree that the romance plotline was as bad as Legacy of the Void. But Kerrigan was never that important in Wings of Liberty, she mostly matters in how she affects other characters (Kerrigan has sadly never had much characterisation of her own and mostly served as a vehicle for other characters' development, I think this may be due to how abruptly and drastically her personality keeps changing with each game). Saving Kerrigan may be a bad direction for Raynor's relationship with her, but it's a great idea for showcasing how guilty he feels for not being able to stop Mengsk. She's a shorthand for the millions who died on Tarsonis because of Raynor's failure. Raynor is not just trying to save the woman he loves, he's trying to absolve himself from the guilt he feels for facilitating Mengsk's rise for power, something that's stated straight out in Dangerous Game: "Even you've gotta realise that treacherous bitch cannot be saved... and neither can you." I feel it's such a great line that it entirely justifies Mengsk's involvement as antagonist, despite his otherwise petty or ridiculous priorities and mystifying plans. And that in turn leads to Tychus' arc, where he realises how important this is to Raynor and becomes desperate to prevent him from reaching that goal, because he realises that then he'll either have to destroy his friend, or die. And the choice he makes in the end. I honestly think that if Kerrigan and Raynor's ending from Legacy of the Void had happened here, with them vanishing into the sunset, leaving Matt Horner to continue the fight against Arcturus and Zagara to rebuild the Swarm, I would have been perfectly happy with the Terran story of Wings of Liberty.

Meanwhile, in Heart of the Swarm, the use of Raynor is mostly to get Kerrigan in a rage-fueled quest for vengeance against Mengsk, and that's actually the driving force for most of the plot. Honestly the romance elements feel pretty awful, because they're superfluous: this is the story that should have happened after StarCraft: the Overmind is dead, the Swarms are in disarray, and a newly freed Kerrigan must rebuild the Swarm to take her revenge against Mengsk for betraying her. My perpetual frustration with Heart of the Swarm was that it was a story that was two games late. So while I agree that the romance was awful in that game, it doesn't feel like it's the driving force of the plot. Honestly, they should probably have Raynor actually get killed and not try to make Kerrigan heroic, and again, this would probably have been great with me.

So you see, while both stories had their problems, I think Wings of Liberty turned out pretty good nonetheless, and can see Heart of the Swarm also being good if any of a few things had been different. But I can't see any way I would be interested in Legacy of the Void. After Heart of the Swarm, I was angry because they screwed up. After Legacy of the Void, I'm sad because I have no interest in heading in the direction they're going.


I honestly hate the end of the Khala. The Khala was never really clarified, not even in the novels. Sure, they claim that it makes Protoss "united" or something like that, but we have no idea what that really means -- it's never clear what the difference between the Khala and ordinary telepathy is. Getting rid of it effectively destroys a huge chunk of undiscovered narrative potential. I wanted to see Judicator characters be more than cheap antagonists, and get to be really complex. Unfortunately, that will never happen, because Blizz is so in love with the Dark Templar that anyone who isn't, has to be one. Laaaame.

Aldaris is honestly one of my favourites. He actually had one of the best arcs in StarCraft. And I keep seeing people who loved Alarak for being such a douchebag to Artanis, and I can almost see it, but Alarak is too external and his character is too limited, he just feels like a jerk to me. Aldaris being a douchebag to Artanis in The Stand though, that I loved. You can see it in how he has to be humble and tolerant to Zeratul and Raszagal even though this is all new to him, then Artanis shows up and says something stupid, and you can just see it in Aldaris' eyes - "now this guy, this guy I can be completely condescending to."

Incidentally, in retrospect I totally should have seen the Khala's end coming. After Heart of the Swarm, I called the Primals - the good Zerg who had never been corrupted by Amon - "Zerg Dark Templar". I had no idea how right I was.


Amon corrupted the Khala, but then they expelled him from it; before they all cut their cords, the Protoss came to their senses in the final cinematic once the Keystone went off.

I mean, it's possible now that Kerrigan'naga has destroyed Amon. But with how thorough they've been with the Purity of Essence retcon, I feel like the writers at Blizzard are of the opinion that the Khala itself was wrong, independent of Amon.

[sandwich_bird]

Just finished it. Quick thoughts:

-The whole retake of Aiur opening was kinda stupid but things turned around quick so it's ok
-Zeratul's death came too quick imo and was kinda lame. But, character became boring longgg ago so I didn't care too much.
-Loved the purifiers and Fenix was a good addition
-I hate the fact that all protoss cut their nerve cords but it did made sense in the story. Gonna miss them, toss don't look as cool without them.
-Loved that the Tal'Darims finally have a real personality and some lore behind them.
-With that said, Tal'Darims were kinda cheesy but they go well with the saturday morning cartoon story that SC now is so meh
-Alarak was a typical villain but I really liked him nonetheless. Him and Abathur are the new favorites. We're gonna need some new Terran heroes though; Nova ain't gonna cut it...
-They handled the whole prophecy bs really well in the end; retconning the retcons made me happy. In fact, I would have been pretty satisfied if not for phoenix kerrigan...
-Speaking of which, phoenix kerrigan was by far the dumbest thing in all the campaign... wtf were they thinking? I was ok with her ascending to Xel'Naga but hell... why you gotta make her look like that.. Couldn't you just make her look like the other xel'nagas? Or at least, give her an energy form (aka some kind of light cloud with no shape)
-I was pretty pleased with the look of the xel Naga. Not sure they really physically fit in those temples of theirs though
-Amon eventually became a decent antagonist. I thought he died a bit too quickly though.
-Ending was ok. I don't mind the Kerrigan + Raynor thing; it's cute whatever. Why no cinematics though?!(not a true complaint, their in-game stuff is pretty good)

Final note: In the end, Mass Effe... huh I mean LotV was pretty good. Blizzard finally got it right. It's not perfect but it works. I'm pleasantly surprised and very much satisfied.

Time to start Fallout 4 now!

[NikoMyCousin]

I think if Metzen's goal was to eventually make Kerrigan human again, there were far better ways of doing it without her ascension to Xel'naga and the jokes that would follow. Seems to be worst part of this expansion, and boy is it real awful.

[ragnarok]

I think if Metzen's goal was to eventually make Kerrigan human again, there were far better ways of doing it without her ascension to Xel'naga and the jokes that would follow. Seems to be worst part of this expansion, and boy is it real awful.

Yeah I mean if you HAD to make the ascension, then just make it so that she would lose ALL her power in defeating Amon. Since barren worlds were suddenly able to support life, it's obvious she didn't. That was a major flaw. If you're going to have her live, make sure all her power is gone. After all, this was the one thing Kerrigan wanted a long time ago: she resented having her psionic powers because that's what got her into the Confederate ghost program.

[Nissa]

I agree to an extent. The devolution of their relationship in Brood War was pretty good, and there's that bit in True Colors where you get the impression that Kerrigan realises how much she's lost and might even regret it, it's one of the occasional parts in Brood War I really liked. If they'd continued from that and had Raynor actually end it, that would have been a perfectly acceptable, reasonable and tragic conclusion to their character relationship. I never expected Raynor to stay on that angry high from the very moment after Kerrigan's betrayal, I expected him to feel sad about having to kill Kerrigan, but it was still something he had to do.

It seems like a more rational thing to do for Raynor to just have given up on Kerrigan entirely, and any chance Kerri has to convince him she's changed (assuming she wanted to/could do so) is too late. Kerrigan's original VA asserted that it was never a romantic relationship, and the idea of them going off into the sunset together, either as what actually happened or in potentia, is utterly ridiculous past BW. But before that, yeah, maybe it could have happened. I just don't think it was ever the best option for the two.


But Kerrigan was never that important in Wings of Liberty, she mostly matters in how she affects other characters (Kerrigan has sadly never had much characterisation of her own and mostly served as a vehicle for other characters' development, I think this may be due to how abruptly and drastically her personality keeps changing with each game).

I disagree that Kerri had no development in SC1 She was a great character there, and her story is what made her so popular. If any character is a support for others, it's definitely Aldaris. We never see him at his best, or doing his job under normal circumstances. He's always in a position where he's out of sorts, angry, or just at a loss to do anything about his circumstances. His character serves to reveal other people's character traits.


Saving Kerrigan may be a bad direction for Raynor's relationship with her, but it's a great idea for showcasing how guilty he feels for not being able to stop Mengsk. She's a shorthand for the millions who died on Tarsonis because of Raynor's failure. Raynor is not just trying to save the woman he loves, he's trying to absolve himself from the guilt he feels for facilitating Mengsk's rise for power, something that's stated straight out in Dangerous Game: "Even you've gotta realise that treacherous bitch cannot be saved... and neither can you." I feel it's such a great line that it entirely justifies Mengsk's involvement as antagonist, despite his otherwise petty or ridiculous priorities and mystifying plans. And that in turn leads to Tychus' arc, where he realises how important this is to Raynor and becomes desperate to prevent him from reaching that goal, because he realises that then he'll either have to destroy his friend, or die. And the choice he makes in the end. I honestly think that if Kerrigan and Raynor's ending from Legacy of the Void had happened here, with them vanishing into the sunset, leaving Matt Horner to continue the fight against Arcturus and Zagara to rebuild the Swarm, I would have been perfectly happy with the Terran story of Wings of Liberty.

I like your angle, but again, I don't think romance is the best idea for the two. Honestly, I've always seen it like a Mengsk/Raynor/Kerri triangle of antagonism. As a fanfiction writer, any scene with the three of them was fun, because they all hate each other and yet for various reasons can't get rid of each other. They're really like a family. No really. Mengsk's rescue of Kerri (I refuse to believe Kerri is the one who killed his family) was bound to make him like a father figure to her, and this plays out in how Sarah can't disobey Mengsk. Also in how she, as a Zerg, became every bit and more the tyrant that Mengsk was. Like father, like daughter. Raynor's sort of like the rebellious son who abandoned the "family" because he's not like them -- that is, not a horrible power monger willing to go to any extent to get what he wants.

That's why I was so angry at Mengsk's death. He's a marvelous antagonist with great history, then they replace him with a boring voice from nowhere. That's some crack smoking right there.


Meanwhile, in Heart of the Swarm, the use of Raynor is mostly to get Kerrigan in a rage-fueled quest for vengeance against Mengsk, and that's actually the driving force for most of the plot. Honestly the romance elements feel pretty awful, because they're superfluous: this is the story that should have happened after StarCraft: the Overmind is dead, the Swarms are in disarray, and a newly freed Kerrigan must rebuild the Swarm to take her revenge against Mengsk for betraying her. My perpetual frustration with Heart of the Swarm was that it was a story that was two games late. So while I agree that the romance was awful in that game, it doesn't feel like it's the driving force of the plot. Honestly, they should probably have Raynor actually get killed and not try to make Kerrigan heroic, and again, this would probably have been great with me.

So you see, while both stories had their problems, I think Wings of Liberty turned out pretty good nonetheless, and can see Heart of the Swarm also being good if any of a few things had been different. But I can't see any way I would be interested in Legacy of the Void. After Heart of the Swarm, I was angry because they screwed up. After Legacy of the Void, I'm sad because I have no interest in heading in the direction they're going.

I agree with your general assessment. Not keen on the romance angle, even though your timing is more appropriate. Not sure I agree with Raynor dying, because he was pretty much the MC of SC1, and I wouldn't want him to die, at least until the plot had comfortably settled around another protagonist.

Likewise, I am uninterested in the future plot of the games.


Aldaris is honestly one of my favourites. He actually had one of the best arcs in StarCraft. And I keep seeing people who loved Alarak for being such a douchebag to Artanis, and I can almost see it, but Alarak is too external and his character is too limited, he just feels like a jerk to me. Aldaris being a douchebag to Artanis in The Stand though, that I loved. You can see it in how he has to be humble and tolerant to Zeratul and Raszagal even though this is all new to him, then Artanis shows up and says something stupid, and you can just see it in Aldaris' eyes - "now this guy, this guy I can be completely condescending to."

Incidentally, in retrospect I totally should have seen the Khala's end coming. After Heart of the Swarm, I called the Primals - the good Zerg who had never been corrupted by Amon - "Zerg Dark Templar". I had no idea how right I was.

*sigh* Yeah, I saw it coming too. Actually, we all should have realized it very quickly if we read the novels. The Judicator were never once portrayed as anything but scumbags, and Aldaris is the only one with complexity. Clearly the Khala was expendible to Blizzard, despite it being something potentially interesting.

Can I just say that the emphasis of "purity of form" and "purity of essence" is utter bullcrap? Neither of those terms are well defined. I looked up "form" and "essence" on dictionary.com to try and figure out if there's a hidden, archaic meaning that makes those terms make sense. The only thing I could figure out is that all Protoss are beautiful and Zerg all smell the same. Y'know, "essential oils."

[RODTHEGOD]

I always thought "purity of form" was basically the "master race" concept. The Protoss being highly intelligent, telepathic, psionic, durable and their bodies were able to exist even in space.
As for "purity of essence," I thought it was basically instinct. While the Protoss had purity of form, their lack of essence caused them to go into periods of internal conflict causing their society to regress. The purity of essence allowed the zerg to remain pure as to what they were; an aggressive expansionist race. Their specific bodies or leadership were irrelevant to that instinct.
At least that's how I understood the two concepts prior to SC2 where I have no idea what they're talking about when they mention essence in HotS.

[FanaticTemplar]

It seems like a more rational thing to do for Raynor to just have given up on Kerrigan entirely,

These two's character arcs are entirely emotional, so what's rational has little relevance. It wasn't rational for Raynor to go to Char risking both Duke and the Zerg because of 'dreams' and 'visions'. It wasn't rational for Kerrigan to spare his life. It wasn't rational for Raynor to help her against the UED, and it wasn't rational for Kerrigan to spare him again - even though she specifically lists him as a threat to be eliminated in that mission. They're pretty emotion-based characters in general too.


I disagree that Kerri had no development in SC1 She was a great character there, and her story is what made her so popular.

Her story was very sad, but it had nothing to do with her. She was fridged to motivate Raynor and as a 'kick the dog' moment for Mengsk. Then she comes back with no apparent connection to her previous personality other than her sparing Raynor. There's no character development there.


I like your angle, but again, I don't think romance is the best idea for the two.

Neither do I, but I would have been fine with this end result. I don't necessarily have to agree with the conclusion of a story to enjoy it, the conclusion just has to be earned. And I think that Wings of Liberty is enough of a journey for Raynor to earn that conclusion. I mean, the same goes for Legacy of the Void really. As much as I hate the destruction of the Khalai culture, I could have accepted it as a good story if there had been some journey, some character-derived motivation for severing themselves from the Khala. But there isn't, they just do it because some evil god lives in their nerve chords.


Honestly, I've always seen it like a Mengsk/Raynor/Kerri triangle of antagonism.

Now that's weird, because there's never been any antagonism between Raynor and Kerrigan. The closest is Raynor's rage after Fenix's death, and even there it's more like he's frustrated that Kerrigan just doesn't get it.


Mengsk's rescue of Kerri (I refuse to believe Kerri is the one who killed his family) was bound to make him like a father figure to her, and this plays out in how Sarah can't disobey Mengsk.

Agreed. You'll also notice that the Overmind takes that role when she gets infested, with Kerrigan literally calling him 'father', something no other Zerg does.


Can I just say that the emphasis of "purity of form" and "purity of essence" is utter bullcrap? Neither of those terms are well defined. I looked up "form" and "essence" on dictionary.com to try and figure out if there's a hidden, archaic meaning that makes those terms make sense. The only thing I could figure out is that all Protoss are beautiful and Zerg all smell the same. Y'know, "essential oils."

Purity of form was never that clear, but purity of essence could actually be extrapolated from the StarCraft manual. The Xel'naga abandoned the Protoss and declared them a failed creation when the Protoss severed themselves from their communal link. The Xel'naga decided that the Protoss were marred by a 'flaw of essence', and to ensure that this same flaw would not repeat itself in their next creation, they bound them all together into a single overriding 'Overmind', granting them 'purity of essence'. So if the Protoss' selfishness was a flaw of essence, and the hivemind is purity of essence, then that gives a good idea of what essence was. I thus interpreted 'purity of form' to mean that the Protoss were a species of perfect individuals, and the Zerg's 'purity of essence' meant they were a perfect species formed of imperfect parts.

You'll notice that both of those things - the Protoss' communal link (the Khala) and the Zerg Overmind - are now Amon's slavery, which is what I meant by the purity of essence retcon being incredibly thorough. Now 'purity of essence' apparently means changing shapes without changing what you are or something. I think in the new lore, 'form' means body and 'essence' means spirit or soul.

EDIT: You know, with that whole retcon thing, since both the Overmind and the Khala were Amon's slavery, the Overmind's line about how the Dark Templar were able to harm him because "they wield energies much like my own" becomes really hilarious.

[Nissa]

These two's character arcs are entirely emotional, so what's rational has little relevance. It wasn't rational for Raynor to go to Char risking both Duke and the Zerg because of 'dreams' and 'visions'. It wasn't rational for Kerrigan to spare his life. It wasn't rational for Raynor to help her against the UED, and it wasn't rational for Kerrigan to spare him again - even though she specifically lists him as a threat to be eliminated in that mission. They're pretty emotion-based characters in general too.

I meant rational in terms of writing. Emotionally speaking, I don't see a man ever loving a woman who killed his best bro. Not to mention that Raynor's lost his home, the only leader he thought cared, and Tassadar. For a man who's lost so much, he's not going to be quick to forgive and forget when someone took what little he has left. Romance is just right out.



Her story was very sad, but it had nothing to do with her. She was fridged to motivate Raynor and as a 'kick the dog' moment for Mengsk. Then she comes back with no apparent connection to her previous personality other than her sparing Raynor. There's no character development there.

I meant within SC1. And no, she's a character making a lot of choices and manipulating a lot of people. You can argue the logic of her actions in BW, but the fact of the matter is that she was taking action, not simply appearing to make other characters stronger. She gave as good as she got, in that department. Just the fact we know her better than we know Aldaris establishes this.

Again, SC2 aside.



Neither do I, but I would have been fine with this end result. I don't necessarily have to agree with the conclusion of a story to enjoy it, the conclusion just has to be earned. And I think that Wings of Liberty is enough of a journey for Raynor to earn that conclusion. I mean, the same goes for Legacy of the Void really. As much as I hate the destruction of the Khalai culture, I could have accepted it as a good story if there had been some journey, some character-derived motivation for severing themselves from the Khala. But there isn't, they just do it because some evil god lives in their nerve chords.

If you like, but I'll still never get over it, for its own sake. This has effectively killed my interest in the Protoss, because it's clear Blizzard only likes Templar, and mainly Dark ones. Thus, we know for a fact that the Protoss will never be more than shallow tropes, bound to the whims of a company with high turnover. That, and I liked the idea that neither side of the Protoss was wrong, in and of itself, but it was the way the Khalai treated the DTs that was wrong (allow me to emphasize Khalai; there's no reason why only Judicator would hate them. Since it's been so long since they were expelled, the hatred has to be more of a cultural thing, rather than a caste one). This is a retcon in SC2, which ignores the idea of the light and the dark working together, all for the sake of a trite, anti-traditionalist message and appallingly bad cutscenes.


Now that's weird, because there's never been any antagonism between Raynor and Kerrigan. The closest is Raynor's rage after Fenix's death, and even there it's more like he's frustrated that Kerrigan just doesn't get it.

You seem to be interpreting antagonism in purely physical or attacking terms. I mean it in the broader sense -- in writing, the antagonist is the bad guy, the person who stands in the protagonist's way. They're in each other's way, they hate/distrust each other, antagonism.



Agreed. You'll also notice that the Overmind takes that role when she gets infested, with Kerrigan literally calling him 'father', something no other Zerg does.

I was always iffy on that end. Sure, she calls him father, but she never at any point acts like she has that relationship with him -- her first act out of the chrysalis is to disobey his order to kill all the surrounding humans.



Purity of form was never that clear, but purity of essence could actually be extrapolated from the StarCraft manual. The Xel'naga abandoned the Protoss and declared them a failed creation when the Protoss severed themselves from their communal link. The Xel'naga decided that the Protoss were marred by a 'flaw of essence', and to ensure that this same flaw would not repeat itself in their next creation, they bound them all together into a single overriding 'Overmind', granting them 'purity of essence'. So if the Protoss' selfishness was a flaw of essence, and the hivemind is purity of essence, then that gives a good idea of what essence was. I thus interpreted 'purity of form' to mean that the Protoss were a species of perfect individuals, and the Zerg's 'purity of essence' meant they were a perfect species formed of imperfect parts.

You'll notice that both of those things - the Protoss' communal link (the Khala) and the Zerg Overmind - are now Amon's slavery, which is what I meant by the purity of essence retcon being incredibly thorough. Now 'purity of essence' apparently means changing shapes without changing what you are or something. I think in the new lore, 'form' means body and 'essence' means spirit or soul.

I have a feeling that you've just explained it far better than the game did.


EDIT: You know, with that whole retcon thing, since both the Overmind and the Khala were Amon's slavery, the Overmind's line about how the Dark Templar were able to harm him because "they wield energies much like my own" becomes really hilarious.

LOL. Oh the monstrosities we weave when we forget our own canon.

[Gradius]

I have a feeling that you've just explained it far better than the game did.
I feel like if you haven't actually played the game you shouldn't be allowed to talk about it or discuss quality.

[Nissa]

I feel like if you haven't actually played the game you shouldn't be allowed to talk about it or discuss quality.

That's why I said, "I have a feeling." I have seen parts of LotV, and I usually only talk about the story aspects of the game, which I do not need to play the game to understand. I only speak towards the aspects of the game I know, so relax already.

[Drake Clawfang]

Here's my take on the two purifies.

The Protoss really do fit a "master race" concept: they're long-lived, powerful, telepathic. They created a great and glorious culture that explored the stars for millennia. Their flaw is a lack of unity and inability or unwillingness to adapt; they're prone to civil wars, they divided themselves into the Caste and Tribal structure on their own, and they're heavily steeped in tradition and are slow to change. The Protoss appear a perfect race, but beneath the space elf exterior they are their own worst enemies, to borrow the quote.

The Zerg on the other hand seem barbaric, violent, chaotic, and cannibalistic. Their flaw is a lack of any true higher society and intelligence. Left to their own devices without a leader, the Zerg are barbaric, violent, and chaotic. Even the Tribal Zerg, while intelligent, have been evolving for thousands of years, and never developed anything you could call "civilization" - they don't even build things. However, they are highly adaptable and ever-changing in this. Their assimilation biology means they are always growing stronger, always stronger, forever.

The Protoss have a great culture that makes them a mighty people, but their poor sociology is their shortcoming. The Zerg have a steady social structure that ensures the race will always survive and grow, but they have no culture and no real civilization. The Protoss's "purity of form" is their extroversion, at a cost of introversion; the Zerg's "purity of essence" is great introversion that comes at the sacrifice of extroversion. United, you have the perfect race in both psychology and biology.

To an extent, you still see this in SC2 - HotS sees Kerrigan united the directionless Zerg and giving them a directive, a higher purpose, while LotV sees Artanis uniting the Protoss and urging them to let go of their prejudices to do so.

[FanaticTemplar]

I meant rational in terms of writing. Emotionally speaking, I don't see a man ever loving a woman who killed his best bro. Not to mention that Raynor's lost his home, the only leader he thought cared, and Tassadar. For a man who's lost so much, he's not going to be quick to forgive and forget when someone took what little he has left. Romance is just right out.

Ah, but she is one of the things he's lost. And the past shines evergreen.

Incidentally, despite the fact that I'm pretty sure they were interested in each other back in StarCraft, I was disappointed by that 'riding a bike' kiss in Heart of the Swarm. I feel like their relationship also works a lot better if Kerrigan was taken away before they actually got their relationship going, so that Raynor can build her up as a fantasy ideal rather than knowing her as a real woman.


I meant within SC1.

That was StarCraft. Specifically, Rebel Yell Mission 9, New Gettysburg and Overmind Mission 4, Agent of the Swarm.


And no, she's a character making a lot of choices and manipulating a lot of people.

In Brood War? Sure, but why? She's got no coherent motivation. Does she want to be the top of the food chain because it's in her new Zerg nature? Yet in most ways, she feels a lot more Terran than Zerg. Has she developed understandable trust issues and seeks to place herself in a position from which she can never be betrayed again? Okay, but then why does she spare the betrayer himself, Arcturus? Does she simply seek power because it is attainable? Okay, but then why sacrifice an invaluable pawn in the leadership of the most powerful non-Zerg faction in the Sector? Is she a desperate child seeking validation for her abilities, causing her to perpetually gloat like a Bond villain in the hopes that if others will not love her, at least they will fear her? I mean, that's the one I'm going for, but as you can see I mostly have to build up her character myself. The actual game provides no consistent characterisation, and you can't even use past events to help build her up because her character has undergone abrupt change from frenzied berserker to smug snake between StarCraft and Brood War.

She takes action, but those actions mostly serve to develop other characters. Her interference with the Protoss cause their civil war drama, betraying Duke and Fenix cause development in Mengsk and Raynor, same thing with Raszagal and Zeratul. She's the impetus for DuGalle's acknowledgement of defeat and suicide. But she doesn't develop herself. She just is whatever she's supposed to be for that installment.

We know what she does, but we don't know who she is.


If you like, but I'll still never get over it, for its own sake. This has effectively killed my interest in the Protoss, because it's clear Blizzard only likes Templar, and mainly Dark ones. Thus, we know for a fact that the Protoss will never be more than shallow tropes, bound to the whims of a company with high turnover. That, and I liked the idea that neither side of the Protoss was wrong, in and of itself, but it was the way the Khalai treated the DTs that was wrong (allow me to emphasize Khalai; there's no reason why only Judicator would hate them. Since it's been so long since they were expelled, the hatred has to be more of a cultural thing, rather than a caste one). This is a retcon in SC2, which ignores the idea of the light and the dark working together, all for the sake of a trite, anti-traditionalist message and appallingly bad cutscenes.

It's also an anti-progressive message. Tolerance doesn't come from everyone being the same, it comes from accepting that others are different. You can see the influences of American 'melting pot' philosophy there. And subsuming all castes into the Templar is bad enough as a professional message - "Hey, Fanatic-Templar, congratulations! You're no longer an academic, you're now an honorary soldier!" - but it's incredibly cringeworthy if interpreted as a metaphor for social minorities - "Congratulations! You're all honorary straight white men!"

I'm not sure who is supposed to be pleased by this development, exactly.


You seem to be interpreting antagonism in purely physical or attacking terms. I mean it in the broader sense -- in writing, the antagonist is the bad guy, the person who stands in the protagonist's way. They're in each other's way, they hate/distrust each other, antagonism.

I meant that they don't even seem to dislike each other. They don't have an adversarial relationship. If they got in each other's way, it'd feel more like a rivalry.


I was always iffy on that end. Sure, she calls him father, but she never at any point acts like she has that relationship with him -- her first act out of the chrysalis is to disobey his order to kill all the surrounding humans.

I interpreted her infestation as representing a development in maturity, as a Terran she was an obedient child, as a Zerg she's a rebellious teenager. It also fits with what I mentioned before about her possible motivation in Brood War, she craves the respect of others, she wants to prove that she's as much of an "adult" as any of them. Even though she isn't.

[FanaticTemplar]

Oh, and before I get carried away, things I liked about Legacy of the Void:

I thought the gameplay was a marked improvement over Heart of the Swarm, though not as good as Wings of Liberty. The Spear of Adun had massive gamechanging ability, which had to be compensated for with some absurd enemy forces, but it didn't restrict your gameplay as much as having to deathball around Kerrigan did.

I noticed some of the Protoss music. Some of it was definitely inspired by the first game's music. No victory theme, but still a great improvement.

Most of the settings looked pretty great. I look forward to examining them in more detail when I replay the game on normal and have more time for such luxuries, but in particular I really liked how the Sky Shield mission's background changed as you approached the city.

While the Purifiers' design was pretty lame, the concept of the Protoss having already faced a robot uprising and the Conclave having thoroughly quashed it amuses me. It also makes sense with their established lore, we already know the Protoss use robots all the time, from Probes to Observers to Colossi, so if I was to accept anything from Legacy of the Void into my headcanon, it would probably be this.

I was pretty hyped for the reclamation of Aiur.

I liked that you could move your entire base by moving the platform it was on in that Moebius Corps mission. That was a neat gimmick, though in practice it didn't matter much.

Might be some other things I'm forgetting.

[Drake Clawfang]

Might be some other things I'm forgetting.

Alarak. :p

In seriousness, the duel between Alarak and Ma'lash, while not necessarily engaging gameplay with you just escorting the guy, was a cool and creative gimmick.

[NikoMyCousin]

Yeah I mean if you HAD to make the ascension, then just make it so that she would lose ALL her power in defeating Amon. Since barren worlds were suddenly able to support life, it's obvious she didn't. That was a major flaw. If you're going to have her live, make sure all her power is gone. After all, this was the one thing Kerrigan wanted a long time ago: she resented having her psionic powers because that's what got her into the Confederate ghost program.

The cinematic title was called Homecoming, and the music played during it was called Second Chances (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDAVAhk-x2I). Could be indicators that support that she's human again with the sacrifice of losing her Xel'naga powers.

[ragnarok]

I interpreted her infestation as representing a development in maturity, as a Terran she was an obedient child, as a Zerg she's a rebellious teenager. It also fits with what I mentioned before about her possible motivation in Brood War, she craves the respect of others, she wants to prove that she's as much of an "adult" as any of them. Even though she isn't.

Didn't think about it like that. If that's true, how would you interpret the maturity part by the time of HotS?

- - - Updated - - -


Oh, and before I get carried away, things I liked about Legacy of the Void:

I thought the gameplay was a marked improvement over Heart of the Swarm, though not as good as Wings of Liberty. The Spear of Adun had massive gamechanging ability, which had to be compensated for with some absurd enemy forces, but it didn't restrict your gameplay as much as having to deathball around Kerrigan did.

I noticed some of the Protoss music. Some of it was definitely inspired by the first game's music. No victory theme, but still a great improvement.

Most of the settings looked pretty great. I look forward to examining them in more detail when I replay the game on normal and have more time for such luxuries, but in particular I really liked how the Sky Shield mission's background changed as you approached the city.

While the Purifiers' design was pretty lame, the concept of the Protoss having already faced a robot uprising and the Conclave having thoroughly quashed it amuses me. It also makes sense with their established lore, we already know the Protoss use robots all the time, from Probes to Observers to Colossi, so if I was to accept anything from Legacy of the Void into my headcanon, it would probably be this.

I was pretty hyped for the reclamation of Aiur.

I liked that you could move your entire base by moving the platform it was on in that Moebius Corps mission. That was a neat gimmick, though in practice it didn't matter much.

Might be some other things I'm forgetting.

You forgot about the defending the Xel'Naga temple on Shakuras. It was a neat callback from the Countdown mission from BW. Though it was a shame this time you couldn't actually use the temple to kill the Zerg, you had to actually blow the planet. To me it was a shame because now we don't know what happened to the Uraj and Khalis crystals.

[FanaticTemplar]

Didn't think about it like that. If that's true, how would you interpret the maturity part by the time of HotS?

It doesn't follow that well. One could say that she gains a better understanding of herself, the world and her place within it, that she also helped bring Mengsk into power and transforming back into a Zerg to depose him represents taking responsibility for your choices and actions even at personal sacrifice, and that her attention to sparing the civilians of Korhal represent a better understanding of how her choices and actions affect not only herself, but those around her.

But that'd be ignoring the very heavy vengeance motif in that story, and vengeance isn't a very mature concept. While real adults can be pretty much anything, adulthood as a narrative metaphor is generally about how independence means that nobody else is responsible for you, because you are now the responsible one. It comes with awareness of yourself, others and the world, and the corresponding obligations. Vengeance is animalistic self-gratification - he hurt me, so I'll feel better if I hurt him back - so while it can be a great driving force for a story - all passion and feeling - it doesn't mesh well with the maturity angle. In fact, when those two come together, it generally involves a realisation that thirst for revenge is not a constructive endeavour, and an effort to move past it.


Alarak. :p

In seriousness, the duel between Alarak and Ma'lash, while not necessarily engaging gameplay with you just escorting the guy, was a cool and creative gimmick.

The tug-of-war gimmick is fairly interesting. I was reminded of that WarCraft III: The Frozen Throne mission where you fight Maiev for control of Illidan's cage, but you only controlled your heroes (and mercs) in that one, having an actual base helped make this mission more enjoyable. And it was one of the few maps where I was actually allowed to get up to three bases, so that's definitely a plus. And it's great to let Alarak stew while you complete optional objectives.


You forgot about the defending the Xel'Naga temple on Shakuras. It was a neat callback from the Countdown mission from BW. Though it was a shame this time you couldn't actually use the temple to kill the Zerg, you had to actually blow the planet. To me it was a shame because now we don't know what happened to the Uraj and Khalis crystals.

It's just another base defence mission. I recognised the callback to Countdown, but I also recognised Zero Hour's callback to Desperate Alliance, or the second half of Gates of Hell's callback to Norad II.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

I wish they'd kept writing their Raynor/Kerrigan romance instead of this.

Hell no.

that's partially why the epilogue was so bad.

"shouldn't be allowed to talk about it "

Slippery slope, might want to rephrase that.

[DarthYam]

Wasn't expecting a breakdown of all the missions though much obliged, Drake. Given that there are only so many mission gimmicks before everything looks samey and repetitive, I was just curious about whether the gameplay shows enough variety and replayability compared to the previous entries.



Thing is, it's one thing to be told that what he thought he was doing a good thing, it's another to make one empathise with that position. Sure, Mengsk is revealed to be quite craven in Sc1 but you can empathise with and understand why he rants at Raynor's "betrayal" of him in The Hammer Falls because all his efforts do actually unify the Terran people against the alien threats (which is a "good" thing in utilitarian terms) and Raynor's actions threaten to underdo all his work and render all the harsh action he had to approve to get to that point meaningless.

What about Amon? Do we have any tangible reason to explain why he thinks planning the murder of multiple alien species is somehow better than just leaving them alone? How are his intentions considered more belevolent (at any level) than the course of action he eventually took? Planning to murder and then vaguely defending it by saying it'd make the world better doesn't make a villain any more empathisable/different than one, for the same crime, who offers no reason or is forthrightly delighted (the "moustache-twirler") about it.



You have to remember that the Overmind is not omniscient and that your own knowledge of what's going on (and what went on in retrospect), being an audience member, does not mean all other characters should have your intimate knowledge as well. The Protoss civil war occurs over two missions which have no Zerg involvement in them whatsoever, so we can't assume the Overmind knows the DT are there. The fact that Kerrigan doesn't show up on Aiur could be further used as circumstantial evidence that the Overmind didn't know the DTs/Tassadar had arrived, because if it did, she would be recalled to Aiur to assist. Then again, the Protoss were effectively doing Kerrigan's job by subduing Tassadar and the DT such that if the Overmind did know what was going on, it probably didn't feel the need to call Kerrigan onto Aiur because everything seemingly was under control. There's no reason to think that the Overmind itself thought that it was in danger up until Shadow Hunters occurs. By then, it's way too late for the Overmind to call Kerrigan since the Protoss immediately follow that up with an attack on the Overmind itself. Also, for all we know, Kerrigan probably still thought the Dark Templar were still on Char and was trying to root them out after all this time since she was easily misled by Tassadar and the DT are tricky to find.

As to how Kerrigan is/is not helping the Overmind assimilate the Protoss, you have to take into the account the role she's been left with on Char. She's fighting the only legitimate threat against the Zerg, how is that considered not helping the Overmind in general?

Amon says in Amon's Fall that he was essentially forced to become a Xel'naga and that he was ripped from everything he knew.

[FanaticTemplar]

Hell no.

that's partially why the epilogue was so bad.

The epilogue had pretty much nothing to do with any romantic plot. It's all gods and ascension and Amon and Kerrigan is so super special.

[ragnarok]

Amon says in Amon's Fall that he was essentially forced to become a Xel'naga and that he was ripped from everything he knew.

Thus proving he was originally something else, and why he wanted the Xel'Naga dead. Maybe that's the reason he was stronger than the other Xel'Naga: he's not a PURE Xel'Naga. That's why it required Kerrigan to beat him, since she wasn't a pure Xel'Naga either.

[Turalyon]

Amon says in Amon's Fall that he was essentially forced to become a Xel'naga and that he was ripped from everything he knew.

I thought the cycle of Xel'Naga creation was due to the eventual and mutual consent of those who contained the purities. But meh, what do I know? The Xel'Naga cycle was tacked on in the EU, it figures they'd go tampering with that to give Amon his "excuse". Either way, I don't care for it.

[ragnarok]

I thought the cycle of Xel'Naga creation was due to the eventual and mutual consent of those who contained the purities. But meh, what do I know? The Xel'Naga cycle was tacked on in the EU, it figures they'd go tampering with that to give Amon his "excuse". Either way, I don't care for it.

Basically it's now heavily conflicted.

Now because of LotV, the cycle is like this:

The Xel'Naga would seed some worlds where they would support life. Those life forms would technically NOT be considered a Xel'Naga creation because the planet evolved them. Eventually two life forms on two planets would hold purity of form and purity of essence. Until those two life forms are found, the Xel'Naga would go back to Ulnar and be in hiberation and wait it out.

Once the two life forms are finally found (which would probably take like billions of years), the Xel'Naga would wake up, have these two species find each other, and then come to them to merge them together with themselves to become the new generation of Xel'Naga.

Or something like that.

[Drake Clawfang]

Basically it's now heavily conflicted.

Now because of LotV, the cycle is like this:

The Xel'Naga would seed some worlds where they would support life. Those life forms would technically NOT be considered a Xel'Naga creation because the planet evolved them. Eventually two life forms on two planets would hold purity of form and purity of essence. Until those two life forms are found, the Xel'Naga would go back to Ulnar and be in hiberation and wait it out.

Once the two life forms are finally found (which would probably take like billions of years), the Xel'Naga would wake up, have these two species find each other, and then come to them to merge them together with themselves to become the new generation of Xel'Naga.

Or something like that.

Pretty much, yes - the DT Saga explained the same. At least Blizzard remembered that and kept it straight.

[Turalyon]

^ Ok, so because Kerrigan became a Xel'Naga, that means humans were "seeded" by the Xel'Naga and are actually the ones who have "purity of form" (not the Protoss), right?

Amon is dumber than I thought. His pursuit of killing the Protoss is pointless since he wrecked them already from the start, he should have killed all the humans instead - would've been easier, too. Gee, and here I thought the mangling of the origins of the Zerg couldn't be topped...

[ragnarok]

Pretty much, yes - the DT Saga explained the same. At least Blizzard remembered that and kept it straight.

Not exactly. In the DT Saga, Zamara was telling Jake and Zeratul that the uplifting had to happen.

THAT is why to have Kerrigan ascend is not a plothole:

Because Amon and his followers uplifted the Protoss, they've been tainted. But it's not the same taint as the Zerg.

Basically imagine a robot you built that can think for itself, have thought and reason for complex problem solving, etc. However, it must obey your every command the moment you push the magic button. But if you never pushed the magic button, then it's free to do whatever it wants.

And that is why because of this uplifting, the Protoss society did not achieve purity of form. Since Amon had uplifted them before the Nerazim were exiled from Aiur, this is why even the Dark Templar, who had their chords cut, were not free of Amon's taint.

For that reason, only species that were not handled by Amon AT ALL could be considered purity of form, hence the need for the terran race, since the Zerus pool only transformed Kerrigan into a primal Zerg/terran hybrid, and therefore she would qualify to have the purity of form and essence

- - - Updated - - -


^ Ok, so because Kerrigan became a Xel'Naga, that means humans were "seeded" by the Xel'Naga and are actually the ones who have "purity of form" (not the Protoss), right?

Amon is dumber than I thought. His pursuit of killing the Protoss is pointless since he wrecked them already from the start, he should have killed all the humans instead - would've been easier, too. Gee, and here I thought the mangling of the origins of the Zerg couldn't be topped...


No, the original plan of the Xel'Naga was never to even touch the Protoss AT ALL. The terrans were never seeded by the Xel'Naga in the first place, not that we know of.

For the whole killing all terrans, it's likely because he felt there's no way to obtain the purity of form because the swarm had been corrupted already. Likely, he didn't know about the existence of the primal Zerg on Zerus.

[Turalyon]

For that reason, only species that were not handled by Amon AT ALL could be considered purity of form, hence the need for the terran race, since the Zerus pool only transformed Kerrigan into a primal Zerg/terran hybrid, and therefore she would qualify to have the purity of form and essence

Oh, I get it now, it's a retcon introduced in LotV. Should've said that at the start. Would've been less confusing.


No, the original plan of the Xel'Naga was never to even touch the Protoss AT ALL.

By "touch" you mean coming down to meet them (that's all they really did afterall)? Don't know how that could've of "wrecked" them forever. The Protoss had already and naturally developed their communal link and their physical bodies at the peak of perfection (their purity of form) by the time the Xel'Naga (or Amon as it has retconned to be) found them. Can we still assume Protoss are necessary for the creation of Xel'Naga or not anymore?


The terrans were never seeded by the Xel'Naga in the first place, not that we know of.

They have to be since they apparently incorporate the Xel'Nagan concept of "Purity of Form". Kerrigan being a Xel'Naga is a demonstration of that.

A Xel'Nagan aspect that is necessary for the creation of new Xel'Naga would require some involvement of the Xel'Naga in some capacity, right? Or is that another retcon. Can we assume then that all life not assisted into existence by the Xel'Naga, have purity of form? Would all the myriad animals with "latent psionics" aside from humans qualify, too? All in all, this is just a confirmation that the Protoss are not really special at all. I thought the Zerg retcons were bad, at least they had the plot-devicey Primal Zerg to keep them "special" despite the supposed corruption that was the hivemind.


For the whole killing all terrans, it's likely because he felt there's no way to obtain the purity of form because the swarm had been corrupted already. Likely, he didn't know about the existence of the primal Zerg on Zerus.

Please don't defend the inanity of Amon's actions. If he had already made sure the Protoss had no purity of form, his job in "breaking the cycle" was already done. He needn't even bother corrupting the Zerg to attack the Protoss at all since the Protoss are not even part of the equation anymore. That fact he did was a huge act of redundancy. It's as pointless as this very sentence.

He should have sent them to kill the Terrans (since he apparently knows that Kerrigan and humans are a threat or wait, was the prophecy stuff created by the good Xel'Naga and not Amon? God, I thnk I feel my brain leaking out!) or better yet, just have them sit there on Zerus and you know, extinguish any chance the Primal Zerg (the only thing that incorporates purity of essence) from ever existing. Man, Amon sure is one of the most dumbest-ever master planners in fiction ever.

[ragnarok]

Oh, I get it now, it's a retcon introduced in LotV. Should've said that at the start. Would've been less confusing.


Yeah and that's exactly what Amon was trying to tell Artanis in the game: everything the Protoss people had been led to believe, it's all fake.


By "touch" you mean coming down to meet them (that's all they really did afterall)? Don't know how that could've of "wrecked" them forever. The Protoss had already and naturally developed their communal link and their physical bodies at the peak of perfection (their purity of form) by the time the Xel'Naga (or Amon as it has retconned to be) found them. Can we still assume Protoss are necessary for the creation of Xel'Naga or not anymore?


Well basically the Protoss WOULD have been necessary for the creation of the Xel'Naga.

I think the original plan was this: the Xel'Naga (not just Amon's followers) did come to Aiur, discovered the Protoss and the Khala link. That's what got them to see them as candidates for the new generation of Xel'Naga. But the original plan was merely to have the Protoss people develop their society without uplifting AT ALL, and then they'd be ideal for purity of form.

In that regard, and this is confusing to me too, it meant the terrans' purity of form wasn't ideal, and the Protoss would have been (had Amon not interfered). That meant the essence transfer did not make Kerrigan into an ideal Xel'Naga, though by then Ouros didn't need it to be, merely enough to kill Amon.


They have to be since they apparently incorporate the Xel'Nagan concept of "Purity of Form". Kerrigan being a Xel'Naga is a demonstration of that.

To me, it might not have been the ideal purity of form. If Amon had not interfered, the Protoss would have had the better purity of form.

It's like this: the Xel'Naga would come to a world where they see lifeforms and determine if they're worthy to be candidates, but would not do anything for them. Unless, of course, the planet was so harsh that there'd be no way this species could even survive without their help, so Zerus was like the exception.


Can we assume then that all life not assisted into existence by the Xel'Naga, have purity of form? Would all the myriad animals on Earth (or the K sector) aside from humans qualify, too?

In some ways yes, and that's what makes this bad. That's why in the future Blizzard better get rid of this lore and replace it with something better.


Please don't defend the inanity of Amon's actions. If he had already made sure the Protoss had no purity of form, his job in "breaking the cycle" was already done. He needn't even bother corrupting the Zerg to attack the Protoss at all since the Protoss are not even part of the equation anymore. That fact he did was a huge act of redundancy. It's as pointless as this very sentence.

But he needed to corrupt the Zerg. The fighting between the species is necessary to gather the psionic energy needed to release him from the void. This is what Stukov was telling Kerrigan at Skygeirr in HotS.


He should have sent them to kill the Terrans (since he apparently knows that Kerrigan and humans are a threat or wait, was the prophecy stuff created by the good Xel'Naga and not Amon? better yet, just have them sit there on Zerus and you know, extinguish any chance the Primal Zerg (the only thing that incorporates purity of essence) from ever existing

It should be the former. Why the hell would Amon write such prophetic things for his enemies to know how to beat him?

As for just sitting their on Zerus, this really makes me wonder just what powers DID the primal Zerg have, and could they actually hide themselves away from Amon, thus proving they have powers beyond that of the Xel'Naga.

[Nissa]

I still think you're mistaken, Fanatic. We spend a lot of time with Kerrigan, and while she is pulling a lot of strings, we see very clearly who she is. Just because her characterization is actually subtle -- unlike SC2 which just plain states directly the characterization they wanted to apply -- doesn't mean that we didn't spend a huge amount of time getting to know her and seeing how she operates. Unlike Aldaris, whose job we never fully understand, only appears intermittently, and is rarely shown in a state anything other than angry. We're not allowed to see his positives, because Aldaris exists purely to promote anti-traditionalist themes. Kerrigan represents a host of themes, because her character is broad enough to do so. Heck, if Kerrigan has no development, then by comparison Stukov, DuGalle, and Artanis have no development.

Don't even get me started on the cycle. Judging from what you guys are saying, it sounds like retcons on top of retcons, and it was never fully explained in the first place.

[FanaticTemplar]

I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that the Terrans were now pure of form, but I guess that makes more sense than the alternative. Maybe. Relatively.


No, the original plan of the Xel'Naga was never to even touch the Protoss AT ALL. The terrans were never seeded by the Xel'Naga in the first place, not that we know of.

Apparently all life comes from the Xel'naga, they seed life in every new universe. Narud specifically calls the Terran a flawed creation of a flawed cycle or something, though he's a notorious liar of course.


By "touch" you mean coming down to meet them (that's all they really did afterall)? Don't know how that could've of "wrecked" them forever.

Oh, Legacy of the Void retcons the Xel'naga out of history. When you read 'Xel'naga' in the manual, it actually means 'Amon'. Except that after he'd corrupted the Zerg, the Xel'naga actually did show up to stop him and he unleashed the Swarm to destroy them.


Please don't defend the inanity of Amon's actions. If he had already made sure the Protoss had no purity of form, his job in "breaking the cycle" was already done. He needn't even bother corrupting the Zerg to attack the Protoss at all since the Protoss are not even part of the equation anymore. That fact he did was a huge act of redundancy. It's as pointless as this very sentence.

Well, having redundant failsafes isn't a bad idea. If he ruins both halves of the equation, then his plan can't be unraveled by one half finding a way to fix itself.


I still think you're mistaken, Fanatic. We spend a lot of time with Kerrigan, and while she is pulling a lot of strings, we see very clearly who she is.

So you say, but you haven't told me who she is. Why did she want to become the most powerful thing in the Sector? What's her motivation?

[ragnarok]

Don't even get me started on the cycle. Judging from what you guys are saying, it sounds like retcons on top of retcons, and it was never fully explained in the first place.

I really don't think the writers for LotV read much on the DT Saga and what the cycle was supposed to have been

- - - Updated - - -



Apparently all life comes from the Xel'naga, they seed life in every new universe. Narud specifically calls the Terran a flawed creation of a flawed cycle or something, though he's a notorious liar of course.


Which only proves they seeded the Earth a long time ago, just never bothered to look there again, a shame

[Turalyon]

I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere that the Terrans were now pure of form, but I guess that makes more sense than the alternative. Maybe. Relatively.

Doesn't have to be stated since it's heavily implied and demonstrated through Kerrigan's ascension. There was no trace of Protoss within her and they were supposed have purity of form (now retconned to not have it in actuality because Amon screwed them up in the beginning) and it's stated that Xel'Naga creation still requires both purity of form and essence. For Kerrigan, the essence part is covered through the Primal Zerg, so humanity must be the "form" part. Otherwise, she couldn't have become a Xel'Naga. Or is she supposed to be something else? Oh and for the record, I hate talking about this stuff and yet I'm compelled to... :p


Oh, Legacy of the Void retcons the Xel'naga out of history. When you read 'Xel'naga' in the manual, it actually means 'Amon'. Except that after he'd corrupted the Zerg, the Xel'naga actually did show up to stop him and he unleashed the Swarm to destroy them.

I'm surprised they ended up keeping the "nascent Swarm destroying the Xel'Naga" part since that'd be nigh impossible given that the Xel'Naga are gods and all powerful and the Swarm would've have been relatively weak in comparison then. Makes you wonder from whose perspective the original manual was written from given how much of it is selectively so wrong in some places.


Well, having redundant failsafes isn't a bad idea. If he ruins both halves of the equation, then his plan can't be unraveled by one half finding a way to fix itself.

But it's not a failsafe because the Protoss are not half of the equation in actuality at all. Everything that the Protoss are is a corruption caused by Amon and he covered all his bases with them. The communal link was always a trap and yet he still instigated the Aeon of Strife by giving rise to Protoss individuality through initiating first contact and then subsequently withdrawing from them to further ruin them. In this sense, not even the Nerazim are a failsafe like the Primal Zerg because they are essentially ancestors to those Protoss who fought in the Aeon of Strife/wouldn't relinquish the individuality.

There was no need to send the Zerg to kill them at all. The official intended Xel'Naga cycle was already ended then and there. Amon should have sent his Zerg to scour all life other than Protoss instead to stop the reemergence of the cycle (ie: humans).


So you say, but you haven't told me who she is. Why did she want to become the most powerful thing in the Sector? What's her motivation?

What's the motivation of anyone who finally realises they've undergone systematic abuse throughout their whole life and now has the power and freedom (she was supposed to be free after the death of the Overmind) to do something about it? They start to abuse all others in order to share their misery and to prevent any circumstance of being ever abused again. In short, abuse begets abuse.

[Nissa]

So you say, but you haven't told me who she is. Why did she want to become the most powerful thing in the Sector? What's her motivation?

Oh, okay. It's really simple. It's hurt and control. Kerrigan, up until the Overmind's death, was the pawns of people -- the pawns of the Confederacy, then Mengsk, then the Overmind. In her "rebellious teenager" stage (that is, post infestation-pre Overmind death) Kerrigan began to really, truly have power. Since the Overmind never appeared to stop her from doing what he wanted, this is the first time Kerrigan could honestly make her own choices, damn the consequences. At the Overmind's death, she kept her power and lost the final remnant of control other entities had over her. Her fight against the cerebrates was to stop them from trying to re-create the Overmind, and her fight against Mengsk, Duke, and Zeratul was to get revenge on them for the things they did to her (she calls her actions in BW "revenge" when she forces Zer to kill the matriarch, but I kinda assumed she was letting Zer take the fall for Tassadar, since he wasn't around for her to get revenge on. Debatable, I guess). Aldaris and the UED are just people who got in her way, and she didn't have any particular grudge against them -- which is probably why she didn't let DuGalle live. She didn't get a sick kick from watching him suffer.

Kerrigan's emotions are the ultimate motivator, as shown in how she treated Zeratul. It would have been wiser of her to let Raszagal remain her brain-controlled zombie, but by revealing her trick, she hurts Zeratul. That's the only thing she accomplishes by revealing her trick early; it's not at all tactical. Likewise, leaving both Raynor and Mengsk alive can only be motivated by emotional reasons, since she apparently could have killed them when she had the chance. Thus we learn that Kerrigan's real goal is not the Overmind's (SC2 aside): she has no particular interest in universal conquest. She even gets "weary" of killing, she says. It's even possible that the things Raynor said to her had an affect.

In essence (hahaha), Kerrigan wants power so that she can determine her own life path, get revenge on anyone who ever hurt her, and make sure everyone learns that she's the big bad, and there's consequences to disrespecting her. And that's why she stopped at the end of BW. She didn't need to conquer Korhal or Shakuras. She'd basically achieved everything she wanted at that point, and owning a few more worlds wouldn't make a difference. And that's probably why Blizzard had so much trouble with her in SC2. Anyone making a sequel to BW would have to find a way to give Kerrigan new goals, or else just have other races force her into action. It's a pretty difficult spot, and I sympathize with the difficulty the writers had.

Maybe I get Kerrigan a little better because I'm a woman, and think like one. Women are spiteful creatures, and we tend to prefer pragmatic personal goals (Kerri's revenge on those who hurt her) rather than long-term, outside dreams (Overmind's desire to assimilate all races). This isn't an absolute rule, but yeah.

[FanaticTemplar]

(now retconned to not have it in actuality because Amon screwed them up in the beginning)

Now that I'm dubious about. When Artanis and Kerrigan go through the Xel'naga temple together, Artanis is clearly recognised as having purity of form. Or from another angle, remember how the Artifact reacted to the Ihan Crystal back in Wings of Liberty, and destroyed the Zerg, but did nothing to the Terrans? I'm more than willing to accept the possibility that Blizzard just retconned their entire basis for this story so that Kerrigan could ascend by herself. Maybe she got that 'purity of form' from Ouros instead.


I'm surprised they ended up keeping the "nascent Swarm destroying the Xel'Naga" part since that'd be nigh impossible given that the Xel'Naga are gods and all powerful and the Swarm would've have been relatively weak in comparison then. Makes you wonder from whose perspective the original manual was written from given how much of it is selectively so wrong in some places.

Yeah, this was one of the problems I had with the story before Wings of Liberty ever came out. The Xel'naga were kicked off Aiur by the primitive Protoss and destroyed by the nascent Swarm. They're not gods. And they're not even warriors, either. It's hilarious that the original Xel'naga story is based on the trope of 'treading into God's domain' and being destroyed by your own creation, but now they're actual gods.


But it's not a failsafe because the Protoss are not half of the equation in actuality at all. Everything that the Protoss are is a corruption caused by Amon and he covered all his bases with them. The communal link was always a trap and yet he still instigated the Aeon of Strife by giving rise to Protoss individuality through initiating first contact and then subsequently withdrawing from them to further ruin them. In this sense, not even the Nerazim are a failsafe like the Primal Zerg because they are essentially ancestors to those Protoss who fought in the Aeon of Strife/wouldn't relinquish the individuality.

There was no need to send the Zerg to kill them at all. The official intended Xel'Naga cycle was already ended then and there. Amon should have sent his Zerg to scour all life other than Protoss instead to stop the reemergence of the cycle (ie: humans).

Not a bad idea, but I'm still not convinced that the Protoss aren't still the 'purity of form'. But I meant that corrupting the Zerg was a failsafe, that totally makes sense even if he had already corrupted the Protoss.


What's the motivation of anyone who finally realises they've undergone systematic abuse throughout their whole life and now has the power and freedom (she was supposed to be free after the death of the Overmind) to do something about it? They start to abuse all others in order to share their misery and to prevent any circumstance of being ever abused again. In short, abuse begets abuse.


Oh, okay. It's really simple. It's hurt and control. Kerrigan, up until the Overmind's death, was the pawns of people -- the pawns of the Confederacy, then Mengsk, then the Overmind. In her "rebellious teenager" stage (that is, post infestation-pre Overmind death) Kerrigan began to really, truly have power. Since the Overmind never appeared to stop her from doing what he wanted, this is the first time Kerrigan could honestly make her own choices, damn the consequences. At the Overmind's death, she kept her power and lost the final remnant of control other entities had over her. Her fight against the cerebrates was to stop them from trying to re-create the Overmind, and her fight against Mengsk, Duke, and Zeratul was to get revenge on them for the things they did to her (she calls her actions in BW "revenge" when she forces Zer to kill the matriarch, but I kinda assumed she was letting Zer take the fall for Tassadar, since he wasn't around for her to get revenge on. Debatable, I guess). Aldaris and the UED are just people who got in her way, and she didn't have any particular grudge against them -- which is probably why she didn't let DuGalle live. She didn't get a sick kick from watching him suffer.

Kerrigan's emotions are the ultimate motivator, as shown in how she treated Zeratul. It would have been wiser of her to let Raszagal remain her brain-controlled zombie, but by revealing her trick, she hurts Zeratul. That's the only thing she accomplishes by revealing her trick early; it's not at all tactical. Likewise, leaving both Raynor and Mengsk alive can only be motivated by emotional reasons, since she apparently could have killed them when she had the chance. Thus we learn that Kerrigan's real goal is not the Overmind's (SC2 aside): she has no particular interest in universal conquest. She even gets "weary" of killing, she says. It's even possible that the things Raynor said to her had an affect.

In essence (hahaha), Kerrigan wants power so that she can determine her own life path, get revenge on anyone who ever hurt her, and make sure everyone learns that she's the big bad, and there's consequences to disrespecting her. And that's why she stopped at the end of BW. She didn't need to conquer Korhal or Shakuras. She'd basically achieved everything she wanted at that point, and owning a few more worlds wouldn't make a difference. And that's probably why Blizzard had so much trouble with her in SC2. Anyone making a sequel to BW would have to find a way to give Kerrigan new goals, or else just have other races force her into action. It's a pretty difficult spot, and I sympathize with the difficulty the writers had.

Yeah, that makes sense. It also aligns with my idea of it. I'm not sure that this was actually Blizzard's intention with her character though. She never says anything, nor is anything ever said about her, to confirm this idea. Still, I'll concede the point.

[Nissa]

Well, that's the beauty of the original games. We're never told. We are instead shown. Sure, you didn't seem to think Kerri had proper motivations at first, but sense you say your idea of it lines up, clearly you perceived her natural story path. As opposed to HotS, where her motivations are bluntly stated, repeatedly.

[DarthYam]

I felt that in brood war she was a comic book super villain. Raszegal and the other protoss didn't really hurt her.

Anyway it was possible to have it be her own choice and still have amon influence her.

The man charles whitman (the guy who sniped more than 30 people from a tower in texas in the 60s) was found to have a tumor in the part of his brain that controlled fear and rage. While he still made the choice to carry out the crime, the tumor helped influence his decision. I always felt that the infestation amplified things like rage, anger, aggression while supressing things like empathy and compassion. Amon's taint would have just redirected her anger into something more....sadistic and cold. Essentially Kerrigan was still making the choice but there were subtle influence. The artifact deinfesting her just removed the restraints on her morality and reawakened her sense of empathy and compassion.

[Turalyon]

Now that I'm dubious about. When Artanis and Kerrigan go through the Xel'naga temple together, Artanis is clearly recognised as having purity of form. Or from another angle, remember how the Artifact reacted to the Ihan Crystal back in Wings of Liberty, and destroyed the Zerg, but did nothing to the Terrans? I'm more than willing to accept the possibility that Blizzard just retconned their entire basis for this story so that Kerrigan could ascend by herself. Maybe she got that 'purity of form' from Ouros instead.

It's not that dubious. Because Amon was the one that interfered with them, the Zerg we know don't actually have purity of essence, only the Primal Zerg do (hence the supposed importance of Kerrigan's reinfestation being different and batter). Likewise, due to interference from Amon in all aspects of how the Protoss developed, they actually do not have purity of form (worse, there doesn't appear to be a Protoss equivalent to the Primal Zerg because the Nerazim stem from the Protoss that were initially corrupted by Amon's influence).

As to the artifact, well, it has "new powers as the plot demands". Remember that the same authority that told us that it would harm Protoss just as well as it did Zerg? Well, it didn't in LotV. We can't really use the artifact as evidence of anything since it conveniently does some things and not others. It's a miserable plot device.


Yeah, this was one of the problems I had with the story before Wings of Liberty ever came out. The Xel'naga were kicked off Aiur by the primitive Protoss and destroyed by the nascent Swarm. They're not gods. And they're not even warriors, either. It's hilarious that the original Xel'naga story is based on the trope of 'treading into God's domain' and being destroyed by your own creation, but now they're actual gods.

Yeah, if they were gonna retcon, they should have just gone the whole hog and told us to throw the whole Sc1 manual in the bin instead of keeping the Amon/Xel'Naga being fought off by the early Protoss and Zerg bits. All we have now are these bits of information that will never gel together and make less sense than it ever did.


Not a bad idea, but I'm still not convinced that the Protoss aren't still the 'purity of form'. But I meant that corrupting the Zerg was a failsafe, that totally makes sense even if he had already corrupted the Protoss.

Why do you believe the Protoss still have purity of form? Because of the manual? The manual said the Zerg had purity of essence with the Overmind, too, but apparently that isn't true according to HotS. Given the complete undermining of Protoss history as being all due to Amon's influence (not the Xel'Naga in general), how can you be so sure that the manual isn't wrong about them having purity of form, too?

Corrupting the Zerg as a failsafe is one thing but part of this plan includes compelling the Zerg/Overmind to seek out the Protoss and destroy them. It's this aspect that was totally pointless! If the Zerg never moved off from Zerus, the Primal Zerg may never have arisen and the purity of essence component necessary for Xel'Naga creation extinguished forevermore. With the Protoss already being corrupted, there was no need to send corrupted Zerg to kill them if Amon's goal was to stop the cycle since he'd already done that (by corrupting the Protoss) and ensured it (by corrupting the Zerg). As I said, Amon is dumb.


I'm not sure that this was actually Blizzard's intention with her character though. She never says anything, nor is anything ever said about her, to confirm this idea.

Curious, what did you think Blizz's intention of her character in BW was then?

As to her not saying anything, it's rare for someone who undergoes this sort of thing to really understand themselves, let alone articulate, what's really wrong with them because if they could, they wouldn't be doing what they're doing. As to someone else saying it aloud, Raynor gets close in his rant at the end of True Colours but even he can't nor never really understand what Kerrigan has gone through. I liken Kerrigan's acting out in BW similar to how the Ur-Quan act in Star Control 2 - unlike Kerrigan, they do tell you their reasons (and only under when asked a specific question as if it's a ritual) but they're so screwed up psychologically they can't actually see what they're doing is wrong.

[ragnarok]

In essence (hahaha), Kerrigan wants power so that she can determine her own life path, get revenge on anyone who ever hurt her, and make sure everyone learns that she's the big bad, and there's consequences to disrespecting her. And that's why she stopped at the end of BW. She didn't need to conquer Korhal or Shakuras. She'd basically achieved everything she wanted at that point, and owning a few more worlds wouldn't make a difference. And that's probably why Blizzard had so much trouble with her in SC2. Anyone making a sequel to BW would have to find a way to give Kerrigan new goals, or else just have other races force her into action. It's a pretty difficult spot, and I sympathize with the difficulty the writers had.


Oh that's nothing new. Basically it's like this:

People don't like being under someone else's boot all the time, especially if the guy above you constantly abuses his authority. Kerrigan had this problem all her life during the Confederate days, and finally began to trust again after Mengsk freed her. When it was discovered this was just another betrayal, she saw humanity corrupt and everything, and vowed NO ONE would ever control her again (that's the whole point of the BW).

Problem is, the more you fight the beast, the more you become the beast. And that's why Kerrigan's actions were basically turning her into the very thing she resented.

I felt that in brood war she was a comic book super villain. Raszegal and the other protoss didn't really hurt her.

Anyway it was possible to have it be her own choice and still have amon influence her.

The man charles whitman (the guy who sniped more than 30 people from a tower in texas in the 60s) was found to have a tumor in the part of his brain that controlled fear and rage. While he still made the choice to carry out the crime, the tumor helped influence his decision. I always felt that the infestation amplified things like rage, anger, aggression while supressing things like empathy and compassion. Amon's taint would have just redirected her anger into something more....sadistic and cold. Essentially Kerrigan was still making the choice but there were subtle influence. The artifact deinfesting her just removed the restraints on her morality and reawakened her sense of empathy and compassion.

That's what I felt as well. The anger and rage were always inside her. But as I saw it, the infestation merely opened the doorway. Whether she chose to walk through it or not was her decision. Even in BW, you could clearly see there WERE signs of restraint in her, however small that way.

For the artifact reawakening her sense of compassion, a lot of critics would say otherwise because of the Dominion industrial worlds and everything.

But as I saw it, this is merely because she saw the Dominion people utterly stupid.

I'm willing to bet at the BEGINNING of HotS, Kerrigan already knew what Raynor did in Media Blitz via WoL, exposing Mengsk as a war criminal. Thus her mentality would be, "Look the Dominion is still unhappy about Mengsk, he's in a weak position, now's the perfect time to get him."

If she paid attention to the Dominion in the IMMEDIATE aftermath of the BW, she could see maybe the Dominion people didn't try to dethrone him because the Zerg threat was still out there, and she could attack at any time. The Dominion needed a leader, so they sided with Mengsk, the lesser of two evils. The same was true after Raynor exposed Mengsk as a criminal in WoL because the Zerg invasion was going on, and fighting amongst themselves is bad. Again, lesser of two evils.

But when Mengsk claimed credit for the Char invasion and got the people to follow him again, Kerrigan's mentality was, "Well, this shows the Dominion people are nothing but a bunch of mindless drones who just swallow whatever comes out of the bastard's mouth. Therefore, it's not my problem if they get caught in the crossfire for the industrial worlds because they're too stupid to think for themselves."

[ragnarok]

Now that I'm dubious about. When Artanis and Kerrigan go through the Xel'naga temple together, Artanis is clearly recognised as having purity of form. Or from another angle, remember how the Artifact reacted to the Ihan Crystal back in Wings of Liberty, and destroyed the Zerg, but did nothing to the Terrans? I'm more than willing to accept the possibility that Blizzard just retconned their entire basis for this story so that Kerrigan could ascend by herself. Maybe she got that 'purity of form' from Ouros instead.


She didn't get the purity of form from Ouros. The terrans always had it. This is because the Xel'Naga seed other planets, and those planets evolve to give life. Thus in a way, the terrans were indirectly created by the Xel'Naga. THAT is why in WoL, Raynor was telling Dr. Hanson that the crew were experiencing hallucinations from the artifact. However, since the Zerg and Protoss were subjected to a DIRECT hand from the Xel'Naga, this is why it was lethal to them.


Yeah, this was one of the problems I had with the story before Wings of Liberty ever came out. The Xel'naga were kicked off Aiur by the primitive Protoss and destroyed by the nascent Swarm. They're not gods. And they're not even warriors, either. It's hilarious that the original Xel'naga story is based on the trope of 'treading into God's domain' and being destroyed by your own creation, but now they're actual gods.


Same here. If they were truly Amon's followers they would have retaliated right away and set the Protoss straight as to who's in charge.


Yeah, that makes sense. It also aligns with my idea of it. I'm not sure that this was actually Blizzard's intention with her character though. She never says anything, nor is anything ever said about her, to confirm this idea. Still, I'll concede the point.


It's really hard to know. I mean the only thing we know is at the VERY end, she did show she wasn't doing it for herself anymore. She said she believed in freedom, not the cycle. Thus proving however late in the day, she saw the errors of her ways, and thus is considered commendable.

[FanaticTemplar]

Well, that's the beauty of the original games. We're never told. We are instead shown.

I think you're being a bit nostalgic here. Much as I loved StarCraft, it's not subtle at all. Here's Kerrigan's character:

"Why are you doing this, Kerrigan? Look. I know about your past. I mean, I've heard the rumors. I know you were a part of those experiments with the Zerg; that Mengsk came and saved you, but you don't owe him this!" ~ Jim Raynor, New Gettysburg

Here's Raynor's:

"It's funny... it seems like yesterday Arcturus was the idealistic rebel crusader. Now he's the law, and we're the criminals. It kills me to know that we helped him achieve his goals of conquest. Damnit! I shouldn't have left her go alone." ~ Jim Raynor, The Hammer Falls

Arcturus:

"You don't seem to realize my situation here. I will not be stopped. Not by you, or the Confederates, or the Protoss or anyone! I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me." ~ Arcturus Mengsk, The Hammer Falls

Tassadar:

"Aldaris, I submit myself to the Conclave's judgement. But know this, given the same choices again, I would surely have made them. I have sacrificed my rank and standing, and I have even broken our own most ancient traditions. But never think that I would, for one moment, regret my actions. For I am Templar, and above all else, I have sworn to protect our Homeworld 'till the end." ~ Tassadar, Homeland

Zeratul:

"I beg of you, Zeratul, return with us to Aiur. Though they are petty, and have, in ignorance cursed your kind for generations... help me save our people."
"Since our banishment long ago, we have never failed in our responsibility to Aiur. Though it shall cause us great pain to see our homeland once more, we shall return with you, Tassadar. We will do what we can. ~ Tassadar and Zeratul, Into the Darkness


Why do you believe the Protoss still have purity of form? Because of the manual?

No, as I said the Xel'naga temple on Ulnar recognises Artanis as having purity of form. It also repeats that every time the Xel'naga seed a new universe with life, two species arise, one with purity of essence and one with purity of form. That's from Legacy of the Void, it should be the most recent canon and doesn't mesh at all with your notion that "all life has purity of form unless meddled with by Amon". Hell, by that measure the Primal Zerg, who are the unmeddled Zerg, should already possess both purities and be Xel'naga.


Corrupting the Zerg as a failsafe is one thing but part of this plan includes compelling the Zerg/Overmind to seek out the Protoss and destroy them. It's this aspect that was totally pointless! If the Zerg never moved off from Zerus, the Primal Zerg may never have arisen and the purity of essence component necessary for Xel'Naga creation extinguished forevermore. With the Protoss already being corrupted, there was no need to send corrupted Zerg to kill them if Amon's goal was to stop the cycle since he'd already done that (by corrupting the Protoss) and ensured it (by corrupting the Zerg). As I said, Amon is dumb.

Agreed.


Curious, what did you think Blizz's intention of her character in BW was then?

I don't think Blizzard intended for her to be anything but this brilliant evil mastermind. That's part of the problem, a lot of the reasoning behind the characterisation Nissa laid out is based on the irrational and illogical decisions she makes. The people she spares when she should be killing them, the people she hurts when there's no point in antagonising them, her all-consuming need to gloat in the worst possible moments. And that makes sense, you can tell a lot about how a character works by their flaws, even though a lot of people hate flawed villains for some reason. And if I believed that Blizzard intended for those to be flaws, that would be great. But every time, someone instead comes along to tell us how brilliant Kerrigan is. Like I said at the beginning of this post, the original games weren't subtle at all. I'm certain that Blizzard wanted Kerrigan to be the cold, calculating, in-control villain, not a petty and cruel villain motivated by spite and narcissism.

[ragnarok]

I don't think Blizzard intended for her to be anything but this brilliant evil mastermind. That's part of the problem, a lot of the reasoning behind the characterisation Nissa laid out is based on the irrational and illogical decisions she makes. The people she spares when she should be killing them, the people she hurts when there's no point in antagonising them, her all-consuming need to gloat in the worst possible moments. And that makes sense, you can tell a lot about how a character works by their flaws, even though a lot of people hate flawed villains for some reason. And if I believed that Blizzard intended for those to be flaws, that would be great. But every time, someone instead comes along to tell us how brilliant Kerrigan is. Like I said at the beginning of this post, the original games weren't subtle at all. I'm certain that Blizzard wanted Kerrigan to be the cold, calculating, in-control villain, not a petty and cruel villain motivated by spite and narcissism.

Such lack of logic makes sense. This is one of the few points I will agree with what Metzen was talking about back at Blizzcon 2011. Kerrigan has been controlled virtually her whole life, never had the ability to make decisions on her own.

She wanted to be in control, but the lack of experience made this impossible. We see this in real life as well when it comes to our decisions: in the very beginning when we're first allowed to make our own choices, they tend to end up horribly because we don't have any experience. But as time passes, and you gain more and more experience, your decisions tend to get better because you know what you're dealing with.

You cannot expect your choices to all turn out great if you never had any experience with anything. That's just not possible (at least I can't see that).

[Turalyon]

No, as I said the Xel'naga temple on Ulnar recognises Artanis as having purity of form. It also repeats that every time the Xel'naga seed a new universe with life, two species arise, one with purity of essence and one with purity of form. That's from Legacy of the Void, it should be the most recent canon and doesn't mesh at all with your notion that "all life has purity of form unless meddled with by Amon". Hell, by that measure the Primal Zerg, who are the unmeddled Zerg, should already possess both purities and be Xel'naga.

Ok, you can probably tell I haven't played it otherwise I would've known this (I was basing it off the opinion of others who had played it). Still, it's a little sketchy. The Zerg don't actually have purity of essence due to Amon's influence (only the Primal Zerg do?) and yet the Protoss still have purity of form despite Amon's influence. I guess then that Kerrigan's ascension really has nothing to do with purity of form or essence since Ouros just turned her into another type of hybrid by merging with her and giving its power to her. She's therefore not really a Xel'Naga because she has no purity of form. Makes you wonder what makes Kerrigan so bloody special when Ouros could of chosen a being with actual purity of form (a Protoss) to make an actual Xel'Naga. Eh, it's confusing.


I don't think Blizzard intended for her to be anything but this brilliant evil mastermind. That's part of the problem, a lot of the reasoning behind the characterisation Nissa laid out is based on the irrational and illogical decisions she makes. The people she spares when she should be killing them, the people she hurts when there's no point in antagonising them, her all-consuming need to gloat in the worst possible moments. And that makes sense, you can tell a lot about how a character works by their flaws, even though a lot of people hate flawed villains for some reason. And if I believed that Blizzard intended for those to be flaws, that would be great. But every time, someone instead comes along to tell us how brilliant Kerrigan is. Like I said at the beginning of this post, the original games weren't subtle at all. I'm certain that Blizzard wanted Kerrigan to be the cold, calculating, in-control villain, not a petty and cruel villain motivated by spite and narcissism.

I do get that Kerrigan is portrayed generally as a Villain Sue in BW but she is not wholly a one-note Godly one since there are cracks in the facade - they're very few but they're there. They must mean something otherwise they wouldn't have been there at all in order to cement her "Sue-ness". It's the only reason why I like Kerrigan in BW - it's not because she's uber powerful, manipulative, evil and cool (all the superficial and noticeable things she does) - but that there's a hint of damage there and she's somewhat pitiable despite all these accomplishments. Despite what others say (I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority here), I think BW Kerrigan actually continues on from SC1 Kerrigan fairly well.

[Aldrius]

I'm certain that Blizzard wanted Kerrigan to be the cold, calculating, in-control villain, not a petty and cruel villain motivated by spite and narcissism.

From Metzen's own admission, she's meant to be Shakespearean. And honestly, that's wholly very, very evident in almost all of the writing. In terms of Shakespeare, almost all of his villains: Claudius, Iago, Lady MacBeth, Edmund and I think Kerrigan is cut more from the Lady MacBeth and Edmund cloth than from anyone else; are spiteful, selfish, deceitful (successfully so) but also very sadistic, grand and petty.

Kerrigan fits that mold pretty conclusively. Add in a bit of sadism (from either the suffering she endured or the genetic manipulation the Zerg inflincted on her) and I think her character makes plenty of sense.

Even the characterization shift from mindless brute in Overmind to cunning, patient manipulator in Queen of Blades is kind of justified in her conversation with Fenix. "I can remember Tassadar teaching you a very similar lesson." "I took that lesson to heart, Praetor. etc." It sounds like mindless grandstanding, but I think Kerrigan genuinely learned to kind of leave hubris behind in that moment; when Tassadar made a fool out of her. And she doesn't kill Mengsk because she didn't WANT to kill him, she wanted him to suffer. He can't suffer if he's dead. Everyone else she killed (Duke, Fenix, Stukov) was because she wanted them out of the way, not out of any sort of personal vendetta.

I think in part she also just underestimated Mengsk, and thought she could keep him under her thumb once she'd wiped out his army and killed the people in his cabinet or she just didn't want to kill him because on some twisted level he was still important to her.

Beyond that I think people just expect way too much logical, consistent behaviour from a character who's clearly a psychopath.


I think you're being a bit nostalgic here. Much as I loved StarCraft, it's not subtle at all. Here's Kerrigan's character:

"Why are you doing this, Kerrigan? Look. I know about your past. I mean, I've heard the rumors. I know you were a part of those experiments with the Zerg; that Mengsk came and saved you, but you don't owe him this!" ~ Jim Raynor, New Gettysburg

How does that... sum up Kerrigan's character at all? If anything that's pointing out that Kerrigan's behaviour is nonsensical and Kerrigan sort of just fumbles over it in response (the truth is explained in the Uprising novel).

It's kind of shitty exposition (as are most of the other things you're pointing out), but it's not the worst I've ever seen; and it's kind of essential.

[ragnarok]

I think in part she also just underestimated Mengsk, and thought she could keep him under her thumb once she'd wiped out his army and killed the people in his cabinet or she just didn't want to kill him because on some twisted level he was still important to her.


Not that. This was part of her arrogance problem back in BW, for her inability to see even she still had limitations. This was made worse by the victory at Omega. It's exactly the reason why the WoL invasion didn't really have her make a strategy at all, she just thought the swarm's numbers would pwn everything no matter what the circumstances, and look how that turned out. Sure she wanted Mengsk to suffer, but by the end of the BW she had the impression it no longer mattered how much he could rebuild, it wouldn't make a difference on her end.

Consistency isn't supposed to be something in Kerrigan's character, but that doesn't make her a psychopath. The problem is the lack of experience at having been controlled her whole life. It left her unable to react the way any normal person would, or just outright react in the exact opposite way. This is something we see in real life too.

[FanaticTemplar]

Ok, you can probably tell I haven't played it otherwise I would've known this (I was basing it off the opinion of others who had played it). Still, it's a little sketchy. The Zerg don't actually have purity of essence due to Amon's influence (only the Primal Zerg do?) and yet the Protoss still have purity of form despite Amon's influence. I guess then that Kerrigan's ascension really has nothing to do with purity of form or essence since Ouros just turned her into another type of hybrid by merging with her and giving its power to her. She's therefore not really a Xel'Naga because she has no purity of form. Makes you wonder what makes Kerrigan so bloody special when Ouros could of chosen a being with actual purity of form (a Protoss) to make an actual Xel'Naga. Eh, it's confusing.

Yeah, I have no idea.


I do get that Kerrigan is portrayed generally as a Villain Sue in BW but she is not wholly a one-note Godly one since there are cracks in the facade - they're very few but they're there. They must mean something otherwise they wouldn't have been there at all in order to cement her "Sue-ness". It's the only reason why I like Kerrigan in BW - it's not because she's uber powerful, manipulative, evil and cool (all the superficial and noticeable things she does) - but that there's a hint of damage there and she's somewhat pitiable despite all these accomplishments. Despite what others say (I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority here), I think BW Kerrigan actually continues on from SC1 Kerrigan fairly well.

I assume you're talking about her reaction to Raynor in True Colors, or is there any other point where she breaks the façade?


From Metzen's own admission, she's meant to be Shakespearean. And honestly, that's wholly very, very evident in almost all of the writing. In terms of Shakespeare, almost all of his villains: Claudius, Iago, Lady MacBeth, Edmund and I think Kerrigan is cut more from the Lady MacBeth and Edmund cloth than from anyone else; are spiteful, selfish, deceitful (successfully so) but also very sadistic, grand and petty.

Maybe I'm just focusing on the wrong passages. There's a lot of talking up Kerrigan for the weakest of plots, from her own gloating to Artanis, and that always rubbed me the wrong way.


It sounds like mindless grandstanding, but I think Kerrigan genuinely learned to kind of leave hubris behind in that moment; when Tassadar made a fool out of her.

No way. She's still all about the hubris.


It's kind of shitty exposition (as are most of the other things you're pointing out), but it's not the worst I've ever seen; and it's kind of essential.

I never said it was bad, I said it wasn't subtle.

[ragnarok]

Maybe I'm just focusing on the wrong passages. There's a lot of talking up Kerrigan for the weakest of plots, from her own gloating to Artanis, and that always rubbed me the wrong way.


This is why I always felt it was wrong despite Artanis getting the info about the Xel'Naga artifact from the Raiders and knowing how it was used to deinfest Kerrigan. Even if he COULD have been convinced if Amon's influence, the actions from her past like those gloatings should have left him in a VERY hostile state towards her. I was somewhat surprised when the hybrid attacked her, he didn't just help the hybrid instead.

[Nissa]

Okay, so I have personal issues preventing me from seeing much about the game at this point. However, I am curious. In BW, the hybrids were talked up like they were all big and bad. What is there deal? Am I foolish for hoping they aren't something besides generic monsters?

[FanaticTemplar]

Okay, so I have personal issues preventing me from seeing much about the game at this point. However, I am curious. In BW, the hybrids were talked up like they were all big and bad. What is there deal? Am I foolish for hoping they aren't something besides generic monsters?

They're big monsters. I don't like them from a gameplay perspective, nevermind their disappointing lore.

[Turalyon]

I assume you're talking about her reaction to Raynor in True Colors, or is there any other point where she breaks the façade?

It's that and the comment about her being weary of the slaughter, plus the feeling of hollowness following her ultimate victory in BW. Note that she only reveals this to no-one but herself (and the audience) because most of the time she's dealing with others and has to put on a "face" to show that she means business/project confidence. If she was intended to just be nothing but a "brilliant mastermind", there wouldn't even be a "facade" for me to even talk about.

I also find that the only time where she is most considered honest and forthright to others (from an audience perspective) is when she talks about being possibly controlled by the neo-Overmind. I think there's some genuine truth and fear there on her part (especially now that she can actually reflect on her recent history of willing servitude but at worsening cost through the Confeds, Mengsk and then the Overmind). Sure, it relies on subtext since one can also consider this as her just manipulating them to do what she wants but it does give us an alternate reason for why she's doing these things other than "she's doing this for power cos she's just badass and awesome!"

[ragnarok]

Okay, so I have personal issues preventing me from seeing much about the game at this point. However, I am curious. In BW, the hybrids were talked up like they were all big and bad. What is there deal? Am I foolish for hoping they aren't something besides generic monsters?

Of course not. We expected them to be VERY powerful, yet the hybrids introduced in WoL were meh. Only on Brutal in "In Utter Darkness" were they a threat. Same held for HotS and LotV.

- - - Updated - - -


It's that and the comment about her being weary of the slaughter, plus the feeling of hollowness following her ultimate victory in BW. Note that she only reveals this to no-one but herself (and the audience) because most of the time she's dealing with others and has to put on a "face" to show that she means business/project confidence. If she was intended to just be nothing but a "brilliant mastermind", there wouldn't even be a "facade" for me to even talk about.


That wasn't really weary and everything. It was mainly because Raynor's vow was something she didn't expect to hear from him. Granted Kerrigan felt it was nothing but hollow words, but she didn't think such an act could affect Raynor so hard. Call it a temporary slap to the face and she had to temporarily "recoil". THAT was all the "weary of slaughter" was.

[Nissa]

Unnggh....We spent over ten years wondering about the hybrids and what their deal was, and then this. All our theories and anticipation, all for nothing.

*sigh*

[Gradius]

There should have been less hybrids, but more powerful.

[drakolobo]

Well basically the Protoss WOULD have been necessary for the creation of the Xel'Naga.

I think the original plan was this: the Xel'Naga (not just Amon's followers) did come to Aiur, discovered the Protoss and the Khala link. That's what got them to see them as candidates for the new generation of Xel'Naga. But the original plan was merely to have the Protoss people develop their society without uplifting AT ALL, and then they'd be ideal for purity of form.

In that regard, and this is confusing to me too, it meant the terrans' purity of form wasn't ideal, and the Protoss would have been (had Amon not interfered). That meant the essence transfer did not make Kerrigan into an ideal Xel'Naga, though by then Ouros didn't need it to be, merely enough to kill Amon.



To me, it might not have been the ideal purity of form. If Amon had not interfered, the Protoss would have had the better purity of form.

It's like this: the Xel'Naga would come to a world where they see lifeforms and determine if they're worthy to be candidates, but would not do anything for them. Unless, of course, the planet was so harsh that there'd be no way this species could even survive without their help, so Zerus was like the exception.



In some ways yes, and that's what makes this bad. That's why in the future Blizzard better get rid of this lore and replace it with something better.



But he needed to corrupt the Zerg. The fighting between the species is necessary to gather the psionic energy needed to release him from the void. This is what Stukov was telling Kerrigan at Skygeirr in HotS.



It should be the former. Why the hell would Amon write such prophetic things for his enemies to know how to beat him?

As for just sitting their on Zerus, this really makes me wonder just what powers DID the primal Zerg have, and could they actually hide themselves away from Amon, thus proving they have powers beyond that of the Xel'Naga.
I agree

about something others mentioned earlier, I think the modification of Amon on both species were for the purpose of controlling them, not necessarily to destroy their role as representatives of the purity of form and essence. disrupting the ascension is the way merge, as false xelnagas hybrids, artificially mixed and dependent Amon.. for the Zerg and Protoss could merge naturally needed time, so he take Kerrigan supplementing with his psychic nature Terrans, the Protoss, was chosen as the only option at hand.

the Overmind would give immediate control all Zerg, the khala although there naturally was modified to Amon could access globally control the Protoss, amon wanted an army of pseudo-xelnagas to control and destroy all the living beings, destroying cycle

[ragnarok]

Unnggh....We spent over ten years wondering about the hybrids and what their deal was, and then this. All our theories and anticipation, all for nothing.

*sigh*

Once again proving Blizzard completely forgot about Dark Origins. The hybrid army was supposed to be massive and everything, we hardly got any

- - - Updated - - -


I agree

about something others mentioned earlier, I think the modification of Amon on both species were for the purpose of controlling them, not necessarily to destroy their role as representatives of the purity of form and essence. disrupting the ascension is the way merge, as false xelnagas hybrids, artificially mixed and dependent Amon.. for the Zerg and Protoss could merge naturally needed time, so he take Kerrigan supplementing with his psychic nature Terrans, the Protoss, was chosen as the only option at hand.

the Overmind would give immediate control all Zerg, the khala although there naturally was modified to Amon could access globally control the Protoss, amon wanted an army of pseudo-xelnagas to control and destroy all the living beings, destroying cycle

Actually even if Amon wasn't trying to destroy the purity of form and essence, he did just that via the Protoss uplifting and corrupting the Overmind.

[drakolobo]

Actually even if Amon wasn't trying to destroy the purity of form and essence, he did just that via the Protoss uplifting and corrupting the Overmind.
it is not conclusive, nothing has been said that the elevation alters their intrinsically quality of each race, the Zerg still have the purity of essence and the Protoss, the form, the problem is that assimilation could be to be naturally, which would take time given the current inability zerg to absorb the protoss DNA, the corruption of both species in question was that basically were scheduled to be enslaved, the same problem with hybrids would basically just an extension of the will of Amon. Nothing tells us that the Protoss Zerg Union was not possible in the future, but since the annihilation had already begun, Kerrigan was the only option possible.
Outside story, Kerrigan is sacrificed for blizzard to keep intact the protoss / zerg existence in the universe of sc. If both races joined sc concept universe would end.

[Drake Clawfang]

Replaying the game on hard... I hate to admit it, but it does kinda make sense why Kerrigan could become a Xel'naga on her own.

Artanis is reading the shrine, and specifically identifies what purify of essence and form means; essence means spirit, capable of great change, while form means great psionic potential. This actually makes total sense with why the Zerg in SC1 were so obsessed with finding and infesting Ghosts, and with Kerrigan being one of the most powerful Terran psychics there is and infested on a deeper level than any other Terran, presumably, she fills the "great psionic potential" bit without needing the protoss.

Purity of essence and purity of form never specifically meant the protoss and zerg: they're just the best candidates.

[Gradius]

Replaying the game on hard... I hate to admit it, but it does kinda make sense why Kerrigan could become a Xel'naga on her own.

Artanis is reading the shrine, and specifically identifies what purify of essence and form means; essence means spirit, capable of great change, while form means great psionic potential. This actually makes total sense with why the Zerg in SC1 were so obsessed with finding and infesting Ghosts, and with Kerrigan being one of the most powerful Terran psychics there is and infested on a deeper level than any other Terran, presumably, she fills the "great psionic potential" bit without needing the protoss.

Purity of essence and purity of form never specifically meant the protoss and zerg: they're just the best candidates.
Except the races are supposed to be xelnaga creations. They're supposed to pick out the races. Terrans don't respond to khaydarin crystals or the artifact, so they don't have purity of form.

I find it disingenuous of Blizzard that the Protoss/Zerg fusion has been set up in every sc game as being the next incarnation of Xel'Naga and then back pedaling at the last second and saying "just kidding, anyone can do it now!"

[Drake Clawfang]

Well with this revised continuity, the Xel'naga seed all life and choose the best two. So the Terrans are still their creation technically, as are all beings.

[drakolobo]

Well with this revised continuity, the Xel'naga seed all life and choose the best two. So the Terrans are still their creation technically, as are all beings.

Exactly all life , and only protoss and zerg are exclusive change by Amon

[Nissa]

As a person who has just re-read the manual, I call bullcrap. Humans were never part of the Xel'Naga's work, or else the Toss or Zerg would have known about them before their entrance into the K Sector. Add it to the retcon list.

[drakolobo]

As a person who has just re-read the manual, I call bullcrap. Humans were never part of the Xel'Naga's work, or else the Toss or Zerg would have known about them before their entrance into the K Sector. Add it to the retcon list.

in fact, the manual says Xel Naga had planted the lives in hundreds of worlds, and only when they return to Aiur, They found that the Protoss had evolved and had the purity of form

Protoss know what the xel'naga with legendary stories beings, and just based on his contact and not have too much before this

[ragnarok]

Exactly all life , and only protoss and zerg are exclusive change by Amon

Which made it another retcon problem. Now even the terran race is being subjected to this BS.

[Turalyon]

Replaying the game on hard... I hate to admit it, but it does kinda make sense why Kerrigan could become a Xel'naga on her own.

Artanis is reading the shrine, and specifically identifies what purify of essence and form means; essence means spirit, capable of great change, while form means great psionic potential. This actually makes total sense with why the Zerg in SC1 were so obsessed with finding and infesting Ghosts, and with Kerrigan being one of the most powerful Terran psychics there is and infested on a deeper level than any other Terran, presumably, she fills the "great psionic potential" bit without needing the protoss.

Purity of essence and purity of form never specifically meant the protoss and zerg: they're just the best candidates.

If the purities are defined as such, then how come Kerrigan isn't immediately a Xel'Naga when she became infested by Swarm Zerg in Sc1 nor when infested again by Primal Zerg in HotS? You could say the Swarm Zerg had no purity of essence with the retcons in Sc2, but if the Primal Zerg had the purity of essence and Kerrigan had purity of form (defined here as massive psionic potential), she shouldn't need Ouros' power to be a Xel'Naga.

[ragnarok]

If the purities are defined as such, then how come Kerrigan isn't immediately a Xel'Naga when she became infested by Swarm Zerg in Sc1 nor when infested again by Primal Zerg in HotS? You could say the Swarm Zerg had no purity of essence with the retcons in Sc2, but if the Primal Zerg had the purity of essence and Kerrigan had purity of form (defined here as massive psionic potential), she shouldn't need Ouros' power to be a Xel'Naga.

Because in SC1, this was done via the corrupted Zerg. They were no longer pure because of Amon's taint. This was explained by Zurvan in HotS that because they weren't bound to the Overmind, they remained pure.

As for what happened in HotS, just purify of form and essence alone doesn't make you a Xel'Naga. Even with them combined, you still need the Xel'Naga's help in some way.