Purifier Origins

[Visions of Khas]

I noticed no real discussion about the Purifiers (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Purifier_(race)). I haven't seen any media concerning them, aside from that one short story centering around the Colossi. Where are they from, why were they created, and why were they exiled or sealed away? Why wait until just now to release they from Cybros? Were they even really sealed? Are they the result of some Von Neumann probe that went rogue and created its own artificial nation? Why do they have an equivalent to the Adept?

Any leaks, info or speculation?





And Demo Squid, Economist? Don't even think about it.

[TheEconomist]

[insert reminders of complex macroeconomic predictions that turned out to be true years in advanced.]

[insert bickering about Republicans being evil because of meaningless, simple-minded, petty accusations like being anti-vaccinations and Jesus while arguing bankrupting the economy is the way to go.]

[blah blah blah mean bad shark eating all the leech's food wahwahhwaahahhhwahahh wait til the end of all things and you'll see how superfuckingawesome I'm is]

Okay, now onto the topic:

The Purifiers came out of no where and many things will be retconed for their sake. For once, I might be okay with that, but who cares. The best information I saw was in the panel that showed them. I don't know if its answers your questions but there's not really much known about them, given, you know, they came from no where.

[Visions of Khas]

I get how the Tal'Darim and Cy-Bros are supposed to bolster the numbers of the Protoss, reflecting the power boost that Kerrigan garnered from Zerus (both personally and for the Swarm). The Tal'Darim's origins were heavily hinted at by the mere existence of the caverns explored by Zeratul, and were introduced by the Dark Templar saga. I even like the idea of rogue Protoss AI, something I've been wanting since before the release of WoL. Even so... they seem a little out of left field, don't they?

[TheEconomist]

Probably because they are. But, if they're going to retcon, let me be something like this. This expands the universe and justifies the changes, pigeon-holing a love story does not.

[DemolitionSquid]

And Demo Squid, Economist? Don't even think about it.

Its OK, Eco just confirmed I already accomplished my mission.

[Turalyon]

At this point, I'm assuming it's the same justification and reasoning for why the Primal Zerg came about when they did. Best not to think too much about it, I reckon.

[Gradius]

^--agreed

That being said, I've wanted the protoss to create robotic drones to do their dirty work for a long time now.

[TheEconomist]

They need to bring back the Reaver as a subrace of Robots with their own history and social structure. Mostly kidding, but, at this point, anything of substance is better than what we have.

[ragnarok]

^--agreed

That being said, I've wanted the protoss to create robotic drones to do their dirty work for a long time now.

They've been doing just that since back in the SC1 days like with Reavers. It's likely the purifiers were an early experiment, but went haywire and wouldn't obey the Protoss commands, so they discarded them out in deep space, not realizing they as a race could survive.

[Nissa]

I dunno...the AI route seems like a cliche way to go. Granted, the gameplay implications look fun, but sentient machines is kind of a turn-off for me. Protoss culture, extremely underdeveloped for this point in the franchise, is bound to be way more complex than robots with brains.

[Visions of Khas]

I dunno...the AI route seems like a cliche way to go.
It's been established since StarCraft I that the Protoss war effort is heavily reliant upon autonomous war machines. I think it's a natural progression of that theme. It will be interesting to see what made the AI go "rogue" and how the Purifiers are brought into the fold.

[Nissa]

It's been established since StarCraft I that the Protoss war effort is heavily reliant upon autonomous war machines. I think it's a natural progression of that theme. It will be interesting to see what made the AI go "rogue" and how the Purifiers are brought into the fold.

It feels like a story that's been told a dozen times before. "AI going rogue" has been a trope since the seventies, or probably earlier. Not interested.

[ragnarok]

I dunno...the AI route seems like a cliche way to go. Granted, the gameplay implications look fun, but sentient machines is kind of a turn-off for me. Protoss culture, extremely underdeveloped for this point in the franchise, is bound to be way more complex than robots with brains.

The problem, Nissa, is I believe this will be nothing more than how the primal Zerg concept went in HotS and all that.

Think "Death from Above" mission. You needed to use Dehaka and the primal Zerg to wreck the power link to get the psi destroyer offline.

Therefore, in LotV it's likely the exact same thing will happen. Perhaps Amon will have a weapon that can instantly kill any organic targets, so you have to use the purifiers. Since they're 100% machine, Amon's weapon won't work on them.

[Nissa]

The problem, Nissa, is I believe this will be nothing more than how the primal Zerg concept went in HotS and all that.

Think "Death from Above" mission. You needed to use Dehaka and the primal Zerg to wreck the power link to get the psi destroyer offline.

Therefore, in LotV it's likely the exact same thing will happen. Perhaps Amon will have a weapon that can instantly kill any organic targets, so you have to use the purifiers. Since they're 100% machine, Amon's weapon won't work on them.

....I have no idea what you're talking about. My complaint on the subject is that we know next to nothing about the castes of Protoss, nor much besides Dark Templar besides backstory. We don't know who they are as people, and how that has affected the units they create and the way they live now. Any development on the matter is bound to be more interesting than robots.

Unless you're saying that the purifiers are going to amount to the way the primal zerg turned out in HotS -- a huge retcon.

[Turalyon]

It would be interesting to have the "purifiers" (needs a better name imo) be a rogue AI that is benevolent and non-violent. That's something we don't see regularly and that can make them alien in their own way. We could have reason for them leaving the Protoss because they were too violent (they did use them as war machines). The reason we didn't hear the Protoss didn't talk about them before is because they're ashamed to admit that they're creations were/are more enlightened and less petty than them. There be potential for extra Protoss angst to boot as well.

I know this wouldn't make do for an action-game storyline and all, but I'd find that angle a bit different than the typical "AI is a Crapshoot" trope.

Oh hell, who am I kidding? Hands up who thinks they'll just be nothing more than a plot device to get from plot point A to plot point B/C/whatever?

[Nissa]

I'd like it better if they weren't rogue at all. Maybe just some smart machines that work with the 'Toss. That way they complexify Protoss culture without being a trope.

[ragnarok]

I'd like it better if they weren't rogue at all. Maybe just some smart machines that work with the 'Toss. That way they complexify Protoss culture without being a trope.

Technically they WERE smart machines, but the Conclave treated them with contempt and everything. If the Conclave acted differently, things would be different with the purifiers. Maybe they would have even been with the Protoss people during the Aiur invasion

[Turalyon]

I'd like it better if they weren't rogue at all. Maybe just some smart machines that work with the 'Toss. That way they complexify Protoss culture without being a trope.

The definition of "rogue" is subjective. They need to have their origins somewhat tied to Protoss because then people will start complaining they came out of nowhere and such.

[Nissa]

I'd honestly prefer them coming out of nowhere to having an out of nowhere affect on Protoss culture. If Rag's description is correct, I find that horribly insulting to the 'Toss.

[ragnarok]

I'd honestly prefer them coming out of nowhere to having an out of nowhere affect on Protoss culture. If Rag's description is correct, I find that horribly insulting to the 'Toss.

It's not MY description, Nissa. This was taken from Blizzplanet and what THEY wrote about the purifier's lore.

[Nissa]

It's not MY description, Nissa. This was taken from Blizzplanet and what THEY wrote about the purifier's lore.

"yours" as in you said it.

[Turalyon]

I'd honestly prefer them coming out of nowhere to having an out of nowhere affect on Protoss culture.

These two things can easily go hand in hand though. If the Purifiers have their origins linked to the Protoss, the writing can potentially mitigate the "out of nowhere" effect a bit easier. Sure, it didn't work with the Primal Zergs but still...

[ragnarok]

These two things can easily go hand in hand though. If the Purifiers have their origins linked to the Protoss, the writing can potentially mitigate the "out of nowhere" effect a bit easier. Sure, it didn't work with the Primal Zergs but still...

It didn't work with the primal Zerg because the SC1 manual made it clear Zerus was left a burning rock.

Now, it COULD evolve into a jungle world, but that would take hundreds of trillions of years or something. A few million years isn't enough for that.

[Nissa]

Well, Rag, since you brought up the manual, let me quote it some.

"Through Xel’Naga protogenetic manipulations, the Zerg survived the torrential firestorms of their world and thrived."

Okay, so it wasn't left a burning rock, but clearly Zerus is one. More or less like Char, which is probably why the Zerg settled on a place similar to that.

[ragnarok]

Well, Rag, since you brought up the manual, let me quote it some.

"Through Xel’Naga protogenetic manipulations, the Zerg survived the torrential firestorms of their world and thrived."

Okay, so it wasn't left a burning rock, but clearly Zerus is one. More or less like Char, which is probably why the Zerg settled on a place similar to that.

Which is why a few million years for Zerus to evolve into a jungle world doesn't make any sense. It CAN happen, but you'd need at least hundreds of trillions of years.

[Jconant]

Earth has gone through several mass extinction periods, millions is feasible so long as at least a sliver of complex life survives.

[ragnarok]

Earth has gone through several mass extinction periods, millions is feasible so long as at least a sliver of complex life survives.

Except according to the SC1 manual, the Overmind assimilated ALL life on Zerus.

[Turalyon]

It didn't work with the primal Zerg because the SC1 manual made it clear Zerus was left a burning rock.

No, that wasn't my point. It didn't "work" because the Primal Zerg came off as nothing more than an obvious and intentional plot device that came out of nowhere (except from someone's butt maybe) rather than what should've been a natural extension of that universe.

[ragnarok]

No, that wasn't my point. It didn't "work" because the Primal Zerg came off as nothing more than an obvious and intentional plot device that came out of nowhere (except from someone's butt maybe) rather than what should've been a natural extension of that universe.

If there really IS a way to completely undo Amon's corruption, then the primal Zerg wouldn't be necessary.

You recall Zeratul's plan to revive the Xel'Naga? It's likely the real reason he told Kerrigan about Zerus and all was merely to get the primal Zerg off the planet so that they could then be used to form the Xel'Naga that way.

[Turalyon]

Ummmmm... I have no idea what tangent you're going off on, Rag.

[Nissa]

Except according to the SC1 manual, the Overmind assimilated ALL life on Zerus.

Not true. I read the manual as I got that quote, and the overmind assimilated some life and destroyed what he didn't see as useful to the swarm. There is no reason, however, why the Overmind would have destroyed plant life in this manner.

Rag has something of a point, Tura. What makes the primal Zerg such a plot device -- besides the retconning of Zerg lore, "necessity" in making Kerri "extra Zerg", and travelling to a planet the Zerg couldn't have reached in a reasonable amount of time -- is that they changed what Zerus really was. They didn't bother referencing in any way Zerus' original nature.

[drakolobo]

Why do you suppose are vegetal life?
My personal opinion is that the forests are not like vegetal, is animal like polyps (like coral ), some primal zerg could evolve to fill the niche of the plants in the form of polyps, and that is because the existence "plants" that attacked us during the campaign. each "plant" Zerus is a Zerg, if you remember in the last mission Zurvan had something like roots where they were bio electricity
simply the primal Zerg, repopulated Zerus of all possible forms

[ragnarok]

Not true. I read the manual as I got that quote, and the overmind assimilated some life and destroyed what he didn't see as useful to the swarm. There is no reason, however, why the Overmind would have destroyed plant life in this manner.

Rag has something of a point, Tura. What makes the primal Zerg such a plot device -- besides the retconning of Zerg lore, "necessity" in making Kerri "extra Zerg", and travelling to a planet the Zerg couldn't have reached in a reasonable amount of time -- is that they changed what Zerus really was. They didn't bother referencing in any way Zerus' original nature.

It really makes me wonder if the primal Zerg EVER could have left Zerus, if they were given more time and everything....

[drakolobo]

Purifiers
"The Purifiers were built under direct order of the Conclave to be an ultimate fighting force at a time when the scientists were making technological advancements in intelligent robotics and A.I. The program was originally kept in shadow and unified by the belief that consciousness could be turned into data, thereby used to preserve the thought-process and decision-making ability of a formerly living being. Studies proved that the replications were often 99.3 percent accurate to the protoss subject the replication was patterned after. The Conclave moved to use this technology to build a force replicated from the greatest warriors in history.
They did not, however, treat the Purifiers with the same respect afforded to regular Templar. Instead, the Purifiers were little more than slaves in the Conclave's eyes. Eventually, the Purifiers chose to rebel, killing their masters. In return, the Conclave determined that the Purifiers were too dangerous and banned them. They were powered down and launched away in a command vessel, Cybros, to be reactivated only in the direst of circumstances. "
http://blizzard.gamespress.com/es/Site/ReservedUrl?reservedUrl=StarCraft#?tab=documentos

[Turalyon]

Not true. I read the manual as I got that quote, and the overmind assimilated some life and destroyed what he didn't see as useful to the swarm. There is no reason, however, why the Overmind would have destroyed plant life in this manner.


The Zerg left the lifeless, burning world of Zerus and laid waste to every planet they found along their path towards the Protoss Homeworld.


Rag has something of a point, Tura. What makes the primal Zerg such a plot device -- besides the retconning of Zerg lore, "necessity" in making Kerri "extra Zerg", and travelling to a planet the Zerg couldn't have reached in a reasonable amount of time -- is that they changed what Zerus really was. They didn't bother referencing in any way Zerus' original nature.

Eh, the effect of "what Zerus was like before" is kinda over-exaggerated if you're asking me. Even if we change that one thing (that Zerus remained as some inhospitable world), the Primal Zerg still feel like they're there only as a plot device to power-up Kerrigan for the final conflict. The Primal Zerg don't work because they're akin to the artifact in WoL or any other previous plot device found in SC (ie: the Xel'Naga Temple and Psi disruptor in BW).

[ragnarok]

Eh, the effect of "what Zerus was like before" is kinda over-exaggerated if you're asking me. Even if we change that one thing (that Zerus remained as some inhospitable world), the Primal Zerg still feel like they're there only as a plot device to power-up Kerrigan for the final conflict. The Primal Zerg don't work because they're akin to the artifact in WoL or any other previous plot device found in SC (ie: the Xel'Naga Temple and Psi disruptor in BW).

The only reason for the existence of the primal Zerg is for the sake to get the Xel'Naga back. Kerrigan was merely needed to get the primal Zerg off Zerus and that's it.

It's not like she herself can substitute for all that. Despite the primal transformation, she's still just a primal Zerg/terran hybrid, she's not a PURE Zerg.

[Nissa]

*reads Drako's post*

*sighs*

*Gives up on LotV*

[Gradius]

I wish cybros was the name of the race and not the platform. Purifier is the name of the laser beam and the ship that launches the laser beam. Plus it's boring and generic.


*reads Drako's post*

*sighs*

*Gives up on LotV*
I actually like it! Its stupid for a race as advanced as the Protoss to not use robots when lives are at a premium.

There is nothing original anymore. Every trope has already been used. Sorry to break it to u. :P

[Turalyon]

The only reason for the existence of the primal Zerg is for the sake to get the Xel'Naga back.

This is yet to be verified nor even remotely implied in HotS. Regardless, whatever the specific in-universe reason is for why they're included in the story, it is irrelevent and ultimately meaningless because their actual role in the functional movement of the plot supersedes all. For the purposes of HotS's narrative, the Primal Zerg are a barely disguised and contrived plot device.

[ragnarok]

This is yet to be verified nor even remotely implied in HotS. Regardless, whatever the specific in-universe reason is for why they're included in the story, it is irrelevent and ultimately meaningless because their actual role in the functional movement of the plot supersedes all. For the purposes of HotS's narrative, the Primal Zerg are a barely disguised and contrived plot device.

It wasn't in HotS. Zeratul only said this in Whispers of Oblivion.

[drakolobo]

I wish cybros was the name of the race and not the platform. Purifier is the name of the laser beam and the ship that launches the laser beam. Plus it's boring and generic.


I actually like it! Its stupid for a race as advanced as the Protoss to not use robots when lives are at a premium.

There is nothing original anymore. Every trope has already been used. Sorry to break it to u. :P
Exactly



the absence felt strange, but was excused with the idea of a warrior caste traditionalist with the best equipment and skills . yet so does feel strange the absence of cybernetic prostheses or medical regeneration, rather than lock them into dragoon.
this is strange even more in Eldar Warhammer 40k, boast of the value of every eldar life and their hight tech, but sent their warrior to fight in tights and have not real robot

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Eldar___Guardians_by_Rub_a_Duckie.jpg
asterian (like Eldar) corrects this, his troops are machines escorting a single living creature that serves as leader.
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Asterians-Art1.jpg

therian too use robot squad and remote control bodies

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jwa9B355bJM/T2IKfIi6coI/AAAAAAAACVk/w5A7sM4orPk/s1600/1306250118567%255B1%255D.jpg
basically Protoss has a Necron/prometheus army waiting
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/a/ac/Purifier_SC2-LotV_Cncpt1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151015082354http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/d/df/Necron_Warrior.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/250?cb=20110928172008
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/halo/images/7/70/Caballero_H4.png/revision/latest?cb=20120627210010&path-prefix=es

[Turalyon]

^ I knew it was only a matter of time before a WH40K reference started (not that I mind)! Given the medley of sci-fi influences that Starcraft is already, I'm kinda surprised that there hasn't been a faction regarding robots and AI introduced earlier than now. It'll still be interesting to see if they can put a unique spin on it even though I know it probably won't happen.


It wasn't in HotS. Zeratul only said this in Whispers of Oblivion.

Which makes what you said before even more irrelevent since we're talking about the Primal Zerg's narrative purpose in HotS and how their poor representation could be a precendent for how the Purifiers could be represented in LotV. Stay on target, Rag!

[ragnarok]

Which makes what you said before even more irrelevent since we're talking about the Primal Zerg's narrative purpose in HotS and how their poor representation could be a precendent for how the Purifiers could be represented in LotV. Stay on target, Rag!

Except in the purifier's case, this is different because nothing was really said about the purifiers in the SC1 manual. Thus it wouldn't be considered contradictory compared to the primal Zerg (since the manual said the Overmind left Zerus a lifeless burning rock)

Granted you can say this kind of popped out of nowhere and I agree with that, but then Blizzard would just use the excuse of "You have to look at what we DIDN'T say."

[Turalyon]

Except in the purifier's case, this is different because nothing was really said about the purifiers in the SC1 manual. Thus it wouldn't be considered contradictory compared to the primal Zerg (since the manual said the Overmind left Zerus a lifeless burning rock).

I understand what you're trying to say but this distinction is still irrelevent to what my original point was though. You're essentially "splitting hairs". The fact is that the Primal Zerg (oh hell, you one could just say the whole Zerus arc altogether really) were implemented as an unexpected yet convenient tool (plot device) to get Kerrigan to a certain point in her story and it is likely the Purifiers will serve an equivalent, if not similar, function to get the Protoss to a certain point in their story.

[Nissa]

This is yet to be verified nor even remotely implied in HotS. Regardless, whatever the specific in-universe reason is for why they're included in the story, it is irrelevent and ultimately meaningless because their actual role in the functional movement of the plot supersedes all. For the purposes of HotS's narrative, the Primal Zerg are a barely disguised and contrived plot device.

This is exactly why I don't like the purifiers. They're a tacked on race who have to be retconned into the past of the Protoss. To make it worse, Blizzard is going the not only the cliche route of rebel robots, but the cliche route of "it's all the Conclave's fault." Newsflash, Blizz: the dumber you make the Conclave look, the dumber everyone else is for following it. Besides, wouldn't Templar prejudice make more sense? They'd be working with the cybernetics on a closer level, so their feelings would have more of an affect.

I know every trope has been used, Gradius, which is why Blizz should avoid them! Especially the dumb ones that have been done to death. It's entirely possible to have cybernetics that aren't generic rebels. It's possible to have technology that isn't very sentient. Stapling a trope to a game that doesn't need it is exactly why I have no more respect for the "storytellers" in Blizzard anymore.

Well, if you'll excuse me, I have to go have a cynical fit now. Carry on.

[ragnarok]

I understand what you're trying to say but this distinction is still irrelevent to what my original point was though. You're essentially "splitting hairs". The fact is that the Primal Zerg (oh hell, you one could just say the whole Zerus arc altogether really) were implemented as an unexpected yet convenient tool (plot device) to get Kerrigan to a certain point in her story and it is likely the Purifiers will serve an equivalent, if not similar, function to get the Protoss to a certain point in their story.

Yes but as of this moment we don't know WHAT role the purifiers will play in LotV. They're 100% machine. They cannot be used in a way to revive the Xel'Naga like the primal Zerg can.

I will agree with the primal Zerg being used in a way to reach a certain point in the story. Hell without them she would have lost in the "Death From Above" mission

[ragnarok]

This is exactly why I don't like the purifiers. They're a tacked on race who have to be retconned into the past of the Protoss. To make it worse, Blizzard is going the not only the cliche route of rebel robots, but the cliche route of "it's all the Conclave's fault." Newsflash, Blizz: the dumber you make the Conclave look, the dumber everyone else is for following it. Besides, wouldn't Templar prejudice make more sense? They'd be working with the cybernetics on a closer level, so their feelings would have more of an affect.

I know every trope has been used, Gradius, which is why Blizz should avoid them! Especially the dumb ones that have been done to death. It's entirely possible to have cybernetics that aren't generic rebels. It's possible to have technology that isn't very sentient. Stapling a trope to a game that doesn't need it is exactly why I have no more respect for the "storytellers" in Blizzard anymore.

Well, if you'll excuse me, I have to go have a cynical fit now. Carry on.

This is the problem for the Conclave ruling Aiur for 3000 years. That being said however, you have to remember that until the recent years of SC1, Aiur DID prosper into a Golden Age, which was why people supported the Conclave for so long.

You have to look at it from the Khalai POV during those years BEFORE everything went to hell.

This is no different than the Nazi Party during the pre-war years. From the German people's POV, they were the ones who rescued Germany from economic depression and made the nation great again. The same was true during the early years of conquest. It was only by the end of 1942, and increasingly during late 1944 until the end of the war, that the people tried to distance themselves more and more from the regime and accused them as victims, completely forgetting the early years of what the regime did for them.

This isn't to say the Nazi regime was good in any way, but merely to explain why the German people had held on to the regime for so long, and then all of a sudden as the western allies and Russians overran Germany from Jan 1945 onwards, found the German people rejected the regime. Do not forget, even AFTER the war, and all the way until the early 1950s, the German impression was that National Socialism was nothing more than "a good idea that was incompetently carried out."

Thus if we return to reflect this in the SC universe, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if during their time on Shakuras, some of the Khalai Protoss lamented the "good years" on Aiur and what the Conclave had done, only to suddenly have everything go to hell when the swarm invaded and overran the planet. Thus to those Khalai Protoss, they would feel that the rule of the Conclave was a good thing, but the people who were in charge of the Conclave at the critical time were very stupid and THAT was why Aiur fell.

I'm sure you can see where this is going....

[Turalyon]

This is exactly why I don't like the purifiers. They're a tacked on race who have to be retconned into the past of the Protoss. To make it worse, Blizzard is going the not only the cliche route of rebel robots, but the cliche route of "it's all the Conclave's fault." Newsflash, Blizz: the dumber you make the Conclave look, the dumber everyone else is for following it. Besides, wouldn't Templar prejudice make more sense? They'd be working with the cybernetics on a closer level, so their feelings would have more of an affect.

It's kinda unfortunate that the official background of the Purifiers is pretty typical of all other sci-fi rebel AI's (they fought their masters and fled to build up their own civilisation in order to spite thier masters) which is why I was hoping for a slight spin where there was perhaps the beginnings of a conflict (why the Collosi were eventually stored away for example) but it got ultimately resolved through the AI making a decision to leave the Protoss because they were violent and didn't want to be a part of that and the Protoss just let them go because they're enlightened enough to know those robots were right by guilt-tripping them about their violent past and holding them to their Dae'Uhl (the purifiers being lesser race). It's a way for them to acknowledge their shame without acting on it and makes the Conclave seem smarter and competent at one point in their rule. They must have done something right in the all that time, right?

It could inform why the Sc1 Protoss robotic elements in their armies don't have obviously sapient AIs (interceptors, reavers) or that they're used mostly in support roles (probes, shuttles, observers). It's interesting to note that the Reaver has its origin in being a civilian manufacturing unit rather than being created solely for military purposes.

Course, none of this will be explored in any great detail because their inclusion will purely be a mechanical (can you spot the puns?) means to move the plot forward. In the end, they're just one piece to the army that will overthrow Amon and his Hybrids. Just like how the Primal Zerg could've been more but were not. *Sigh*


Yes but as of this moment we don't know WHAT role the purifiers will play in LotV.

There you go again with the irrelevent trivialities and semantics that have nothing to do with the point. It doesn't really matter that they're Purifiers or robots or what their motivations are or what their ties to the Protoss are since you could just as easily put something else (like an orange?) in its place to fulfil the plot device function that it (whatever "it" may happen to be) essentially is.

[ragnarok]

There you go again with the irrelevent trivialities and semantics that have nothing to do with the point. It doesn't really matter that they're Purifiers or robots or what their motivations are or what their ties to the Protoss are since you could just as easily put something else (like an orange?) in its place to fulfil the plot device function that it (whatever "it" may happen to be) essentially is.

For the most part I see that will only be like what happened in "Death from Above" in HotS.

[Nissa]

Thanks for understanding, Tura. I'm just so boggled that an older than dirt scifi trope gets put in, and it's probably making me more than a little irritating.

[drakolobo]

It's kinda unfortunate that the official background of the Purifiers is pretty typical of all other sci-fi rebel AI's (they fought their masters and fled to build up their own civilisation in order to spite thier masters) which is why I was hoping for a slight spin where there was perhaps the beginnings of a conflict (why the Collosi were eventually stored away for example) but it got ultimately resolved through the AI making a decision to leave the Protoss because they were violent and didn't want to be a part of that and the Protoss just let them go because they're enlightened enough to know those robots were right by guilt-tripping them about their violent past and holding them to their Dae'Uhl (the purifiers being lesser race). It's a way for them to acknowledge their shame without acting on it and makes the Conclave seem smarter and competent at one point in their rule. They must have done something right in the all that time, right?

It could inform why the Sc1 Protoss robotic elements in their armies don't have obviously sapient AIs (interceptors, reavers) or that they're used mostly in support roles (probes, shuttles, observers). It's interesting to note that the Reaver has its origin in being a civilian manufacturing unit rather than being created solely for military purposes.
Course, none of this will be explored in any great detail because their inclusion will purely be a mechanical (can you spot the puns?) means to move the plot forward. In the end, they're just one piece to the army that will overthrow Amon and his Hybrids. Just like how the Primal Zerg could've been more but were not. *Sigh*



Purifier not fall simply on the cliche of robotic rebellion, the background is implicit that emerged as an experiment linked to the Product search, immortality, preserve great heroes, failed experiment because it was not consciousness preserved by 100%, to see failure They recycled the project as an auxiliary of the Templar caste
but they disregarded, they were basically trampling the children of great heroes as heroes. because the purifiers are not mere IA are mainly: Protoss outstanding in mechanical bodies taht simply deactivated like ultimate army. the idea that there will probably be a negotiation with purifiers, for history purifiers is also similar to the story of Narazim



There you go again with the irrelevent trivialities and semantics that have nothing to do with the point. It doesn't really matter that they're Purifiers or robots or what their motivations are or what their ties to the Protoss are since you could just as easily put something else (like an orange?) in its place to fulfil the plot device function that it (whatever "it" may happen to be) essentially is.


these is a closed perspective, this would deny any new thing to expand the universe . While the new annex is a plausible lore with the starcraft universe, it is acceptable. As you mentioned purifiers history consistent with the modus operandi of the Protoss of moderate or prohibit controversial and dangerous technology, such destructive machines (colossus) or genetic modification (frontline)

[Gradius]

There you go again with the irrelevent trivialities and semantics that have nothing to do with the point.
Welcome to Ragnarok.

[ragnarok]

these is a closed perspective, this would deny any new thing to expand the universe . While the new annex is a plausible lore with the starcraft universe, it is acceptable. As you mentioned purifiers history consistent with the modus operandi of the Protoss of moderate or prohibit controversial and dangerous technology, such destructive machines (colossus) or genetic modification (frontline)

But there in lies Blizzard just abusing their vagueness to have it mean whatever they wanted. The Colossi, for example, wasn't really a retcon or anything, it was merely something born out of "because past experiences forced it to be prohibited."

And Blizzard never said in detail just how much was banned with the new traditions (which technically are the old traditions by the time of SC1), so therefore now they're saying they can pull whatever they want out of thin air because of just that.

[Turalyon]

For the most part I see that will only be like what happened in "Death from Above" in HotS.

That mission pretty much cements the Primal Zerg as being mere plot device. It wasn't enough for them to just be there to conveniently empower Kerrigan to fulfill the story of her ultimate victory, they had to remind us how shameless of a plot device they were (in case it wasn't clear the first time) by being the only thing capable of getting around yet another horrendous out-of-the-blue plot device.


Purifier not fall simply on the cliche of robotic rebellion, the background is implicit that emerged as an experiment linked to the Product search, immortality, preserve great heroes, failed experiment because it was not consciousness preserved by 100%, to see failure They recycled the project as an auxiliary of the Templar caste
but they disregarded, they were basically trampling the children of great heroes as heroes. because the purifiers are not mere IA are mainly: Protoss outstanding in mechanical bodies taht simply deactivated like ultimate army. the idea that there will probably be a negotiation with purifiers, for history purifiers is also similar to the story of Narazim

It's a bit hard to comprehend what you're saying so sorry if it doesn't like I'm responding correctly to what you intended above. The conception of the AI (which I take as you trying to explain the Protoss wanting to preserve the minds of their past leaders/thinkers by recreating them as AI) is not the cliche, it's the rebellion and the nature of it that is cliche. The "treating them badly" and "then they rebelled violently" is what's cliche and a disservice to the Protoss, especially in light of their history with the Nerazim. To have them be another Nerazim expy in which they made the same mistake just makes them utterly incompetent and more unenlightened - something that the Protoss should not be thought of as.

I like my version of the "split" better since at least I'm trying to give the homeworld Protoss some dignity and awareness of their failings. Also, it's different than the typical robot rebellion since it's not technically a rebellion (which is the worst part of that particular cliche) thereby differentiating them further from the Nerazim. You don't need the Purifiers to mirror the Nerazim in thematic value because we already have the actual Nerazim for that!


these is a closed perspective, this would deny any new thing to expand the universe . While the new annex is a plausible lore with the starcraft universe, it is acceptable. As you mentioned purifiers history consistent with the modus operandi of the Protoss of moderate or prohibit controversial and dangerous technology, such destructive machines (colossus) or genetic modification (frontline)

No, no, you misunderstand. I'm not saying that the purifiers were wholly created and included to serve as plot device but the way they will likely be used will come across as them being felt as nothing more than plot device. The Primal Zerg are a clear example of this. I'm sure there is a way to make them interesting and fleshed out, but the way they were used in the actual narrative doesn't really endear the audience to think of them more than being in service to move the plot.

Contrast this with the plot devices used in Sc1. The Psi emitter not only move the plot but it fuels character progression and informs us about the nature of what makes the Terrans tick. The focus is not about the device itself but the reactions generated from its existence. The Dark templar in The Stand (Episode III) can also be seen as a plot device to move the story forward and to allow for the convenient defeat of the Zerg but they are clearly more than that because we see them through interactions with a specific Dark Templar character in Zeratul and that the focus is on their ancient conflict with the Khalai. It just so happens that they serve the current story but are not seemingly there just to serve that story. It's a subtle difference but this is what makes or breaks appropriate world-building.

[ragnarok]

That mission pretty much cements the Primal Zerg as being mere plot device. It wasn't enough for them to just be there to conveniently empower Kerrigan to fulfill the story of her ultimate victory, they had to remind us how shameless of a plot device they were (in case it wasn't clear the first time) by being the only thing capable of getting around yet another horrendous out-of-the-blue plot device.


Personally I didn't see the point if Kerrigan was fully remade on Zerus. If that was true she would be considered primal Zerg herself, and therefore wouldn't need Dehaka's help in that mission.

[Sheliek]

Welcome to Ragnarok.

I've been wanting to out-Rag Ragnarok for a few months now, but I don't know I've got it in me.

#shitpost

[ragnarok]

I've been wanting to out-Rag Ragnarok for a few months now, but I don't know I've got it in me.

#shitpost

Not impressed, Muspelli, if that's all you're going to see of me

[Sheliek]

Not impressed, Muspelli, if that's all you're going to see of me

I say these things out of love. You're unique. I just wanna see if you're argument style works against you, though. I'm not sure it would. Likely, it'd be stalemate. Like Russia-USA relations from 1945 til present.

Hopefully with less WMDs, mind. Y'all remember the great nuking of the fifty-first state? Yeah, no one does. That was at least 90 years ago...

[ragnarok]

I say these things out of love. You're unique. I just wanna see if you're argument style works against you, though. I'm not sure it would. Likely, it'd be stalemate. Like Russia-USA relations from 1945 til present.

Hopefully with less WMDs, mind. Y'all remember the great nuking of the fifty-first state? Yeah, no one does. That was at least 90 years ago...

Everyone is unique in some way, you know this.

[Visions of Khas]

Everyone is unique in some way, you know this.


You're a special little snow flake.

Just like everyone else.

[ragnarok]

You're a special little snow flake.

Just like everyone else.

Right you are. No two snowflakes have EVER proven to be identical (at least not that we know of).

[TheEconomist]

Protoss culture, extremely underdeveloped for this point in the franchise, is bound to be way more complex than robots with brains.

Organisms are just biological machines. Even if you believe humans have souls, there's no reason that that cannot be put into a robotic machines. I see no reason why robots can't have complex stories as well. I'm reading two good examples right now, Neal Asher's Polity and Iain M Banks' Culture series.

[insert social justice warrior joke about the oppression of robotic lifeforms by the bio-archy.]


I'm just so boggled that an older than dirt scifi trope gets put in, and it's probably making me more than a little irritating.

As opposed to the even older hivemind, insectoid trope or the advanced, but immature aliens trope? Read a couple books by Olaf Stapledon from the 30's with these tropes and I doubt they were original then.


Also, it's good to see that the experience with Ragnarok is universal. Never ceases to entertain me.

But seriously, Rag, get some treatment.


Right you are. No two snowflakes have EVER proven to be identical (at least not that we know of).

Another CLASSIC

ANOTHER classic

....

whatever

[Visions of Khas]

They never explicated the significant threat Preservers posed to Ulrezaj or Amon. After some leaked material revealed a Fenix portrait, possibly in Purifier form, I wonder if the Purifiers will delve into Rohana's memories to collect the experience and personalities of long dead Templar... Like Fenix.

[RODTHEGOD]

Interesting topic.

As for the "primal Zerg." I thought the concept was interesting of survivor organisms that were able to escape the initial phase of the zerg development.
But the way Blizzard handled it was retarded.
1. it made no sense that Kerrigan would even be able to get there.
2. they were there exclusively to provide a reason for specific game play elements they wanted ie: evolve Kerrigan, an additional character for Kerrigan to talk to (I mean what would have been wrong if there were multiple queens in the "briefing room"), the "psi destroyer" mission...
3. the idea of Zerus being a jungle world and not an ash world like char pissed me off
4. a reason (if you can call it that) for Zeratual to be in the campaign

As for the Purifiers (Never liked the name)
I think their backstory lies in their name and one of the colossi backstories.
Basically they were TOO good at killing to the point where they wiped out entire civilizations.
Eventually the Protoss developed their guardian of lower lifeforms philosophy and determined the purifiers to be an illegal weapon of war

I don't mind the concept of the purifiers, but I think that someone here might be right and they'll just be a stupid plot device.
I would like it if they were just a sub faction of the Protoss rather than "the key to solve mission x"

[drakolobo]

Interesting topic.

As for the "primal Zerg." I thought the concept was interesting of survivor organisms that were able to escape the initial phase of the zerg development.
But the way Blizzard handled it was retarded.
1. it made no sense that Kerrigan would even be able to get there.
2. they were there exclusively to provide a reason for specific game play elements they wanted ie: evolve Kerrigan, an additional character for Kerrigan to talk to (I mean what would have been wrong if there were multiple queens in the "briefing room"), the "psi destroyer" mission...
3. the idea of Zerus being a jungle world and not an ash world like char pissed me off
4. a reason (if you can call it that) for Zeratual to be in the campaign

As for the Purifiers (Never liked the name)
I think their backstory lies in their name and one of the colossi backstories.
Basically they were TOO good at killing to the point where they wiped out entire civilizations.
Eventually the Protoss developed their guardian of lower lifeforms philosophy and determined the purifiers to be an illegal weapon of war

I don't mind the concept of the purifiers, but I think that someone here might be right and they'll just be a stupid plot device.
I would like it if they were just a sub faction of the Protoss rather than "the key to solve mission x"
totaly agree with point 2, about point 3 is easy these jungle is not vegetal all are zerg life form, this is Zerus jungle :
http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/images/drawgoon/StarCraft_Drawgoon034c.jpg
http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/images/drawgoon/StarCraft_Drawgoon032c.jpg
http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/images/drawgoon/StarCraft_Drawgoon033c.jpg
http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/images/drawgoon/StarCraft_Drawgoon035c.jpg
http://www.sonsofthestorm.com/viewer.php?artist=drawgoon&cat=starcraft&art=36

[Turalyon]

After some leaked material revealed a Fenix portrait, possibly in Purifier form, I wonder if the Purifiers will delve into Rohana's memories to collect the experience and personalities of long dead Templar... Like Fenix.

I sincerely hope not. The whole idea of it (if Purifier Fenix does make an appearnce in LOtV that is) makes me wonder whether Blizz is just overcompensating to negative fan reaction for his non-reference in WoL and the subsequent singular shoehorned-in and inane reference in HotS. They've ruined enough dead/thought-to-be-dead characters already, let Fenix rest in peace.

[ragnarok]

I sincerely hope not. The whole idea of it (if Purifier Fenix does make an appearnce in LOtV that is) makes me wonder whether Blizz is just overcompensating to negative fan reaction for his non-reference in WoL and the subsequent singular shoehorned-in and inane reference in HotS. They've ruined enough dead/thought-to-be-dead characters already, let Fenix rest in peace.

Putting him back as a purifier would defeat the whole point of retribution. Fenix needs to stay deceased for the sake of reminding the Protoss that Kerrigan cannot be considered trusted AT ALL.

The best way to bring Fenix back and have the players be content with it is via flashbacks. Thus if we get to use Fenix in a flashback mission, that'd be fine.

[Visions of Khas]

To be fair, a Purifier Fenix would only be an echo of the original, echos of his thoughts resounding through the Khala.

[ragnarok]

To be fair, a Purifier Fenix would only be an echo of the original, echos of his thoughts resounding through the Khala.

And those echoes won't be heard at all anymore once Amon corrupts the Khala.

[Visions of Khas]

And those echoes won't be heard at all anymore once Amon corrupts the Khala.

I guess that depends on how Rohana is able to resist Amon's corruption. Though it would be interesting if these Corrupted Echos did slip into the Purifiers and turned on the Protoss towards the end.

[ragnarok]

I guess that depends on how Rohana is able to resist Amon's corruption. Though it would be interesting if these Corrupted Echos did slip into the Purifiers and turned on the Protoss towards the end.

The way I saw it, it could be a little bit like what we saw in "A Sinister Turn", when Maar corrupted the Zhakul Guardians. Remember, he wasn't able to do that to the preservers.

It's possible that what Maar did was on a much smaller scale of what Amon will be able to do in LotV, that's why Maar's actions was only able to affect Zhakul, and not ALL of the Khalai Protoss. It proves the whole Khala corruption concept is imperfect.

[Turalyon]

To be fair, a Purifier Fenix would only be an echo of the original, echos of his thoughts resounding through the Khala.

I guess we can chalk up any unusual characterisation then as it being an imperfect copy or something. Still sounds kinda lame but at least it's a better out compared to the other resurrected Sc2 characters (which amounted to them never actually dying at all it seemed :rolleyes:) I suppose.

[drakolobo]

I guess we can chalk up any unusual characterisation then as it being an imperfect copy or something. Still sounds kinda lame but at least it's a better out compared to the other resurrected Sc2 characters (which amounted to them never actually dying at all it seemed :rolleyes:) I suppose.

has always seemed exaggerated reaction to the "resurrection" of Tassadar, from manual it was noted that part of the Protoss survive in the khala as disorganized memories, the only difference is that Tassadar has maintained his consciousness unbroken, possible effect to use the two types of khala / void energies as a twilight protoss.

[Turalyon]

has always seemed exaggerated reaction to the "resurrection" of Tassadar, from manual it was noted that part of the Protoss survive in the khala as disorganized memories, the only difference is that Tassadar has maintained his consciousness unbroken, possible effect to use the two types of khala / void energies as a twilight protoss.

The problem isn't only that they come back/resurrect at all but how poor handling and representation of this comeback just compounds the problem. For example, Tassadar's comeback is only given the most cursory of reasons but worse it seems to be purely in the service of plot (verified later by the writers because they wanted someone that Zeratul would just implicitly trust when Tassadar reeled off his exposition). It's mechanical, pointless and cheapens his character even more. The Overmind's treatment in WOL is in the same league - this hurt more for me since I'm a Zerg fan since I do want the Overmind back, but never in a contrived way like this!

The same concern arises with the potential of a "purifier Fenix". It just seems to be fanservice for the sake of fanservice since I can't really see the point of having his character revisited. Case in point is with Infested Stukov's cameo in HotS which was utterly pointless. I still don't know why he just happened to be there....

[ragnarok]

The same concern arises with the potential of a "purifier Fenix". It just seems to be fanservice for the sake of fanservice since I can't really see the point of having his character revisited. Case in point is with Infested Stukov's cameo in HotS which was utterly pointless. I still don't know why he just happened to be there....

With Stukov's case, it's because Blizzard was trying to show they didn't COMPLETELY forget about the BW. Unfortunately that was a pitiful attempt, since Stukov was not revived and infested by Kaloth until AFTER the BW. BW alone only showed he was killed.

It would have been better to bring mentions of Raszagal back.

In Fenix's case, it's little different since the community feels Blizzard is being way too negligent on the matter. His death was an important part in the BW, and the way SC2 went acted like the events of BW never happened.

[Turalyon]

With Stukov's case, it's because Blizzard was trying to show they didn't COMPLETELY forget about the BW.

In Fenix's case, it's little different since the community feels Blizzard is being way too negligent on the matter. His death was an important part in the BW, and the way SC2 went acted like the events of BW never happened.

So, in comparison to Stukov in HotS, adding in Fenix in LotV is Blizz somehow not showing us they didn't completely forgot about BW? :confused:

We don't actually need a literal reference, namecheck (like in HotS) or embodiment of Fenix as long as his death had some sort of ongoing effect on someone - which in this case was supposed to be Raynor (the out-of-context, sudden about-face rant that Raynor gives to Kerrigan after having been rescued by her on the Moros makes no sense. Would've been more believable if he was just angry at her for choosing to look ugly again :p). That's were the real beef lies when people talk about Fenix's "exclusion" in Sc2. It's not about wanting him to physically comeback but an issue regarding continuity. Really, there is no real reason for him to comeback beyond either being a cameo for cameo sake or as plot device, either of which is painfully transparent and contrived. Course, if it did happen, at least Sc2 will be consistently contrived... if one can take that as a good thing that is.

[ragnarok]

So, in comparison to Stukov in HotS, adding in Fenix in LotV is Blizz somehow not showing us they didn't completely forgot about BW? :confused:

We don't actually need a literal reference, namecheck (like in HotS) or embodiment of Fenix as long as his death had some sort of ongoing effect on someone - which in this case was supposed to be Raynor (the out-of-context, sudden about-face rant that Raynor gives to Kerrigan after having been rescued by her on the Moros makes no sense. Would've been more believable if he was just angry at her for choosing to look ugly again :p). That's were the real beef lies when people talk about Fenix's "exclusion" in Sc2. It's not about wanting him to physically comeback but an issue regarding continuity. Really, there is no real reason for him to comeback beyond either being a cameo for cameo sake or as plot device, either of which is painfully transparent and contrived. Course, if it did happen, at least Sc2 will be consistently contrived... if one can take that as a good thing that is.

In some ways yes, but the problem is if you didn't know about what Kaloth did, it makes even less sense.

The whole part of raising the issue with Fenix, as far as I'm aware, is that Blizzard knew that the community wasn't one bit happy that Fenix was left in the dark in the whole of WoL, as that was supposed to have been an important part on Raynor's end.

Sure, Kerrigan reminded Raynor of that vow in the Flashpoint book, but not everyone read the book. Thus probably what happened was they felt if they left Fenix out completely in HotS, it would only prove they're negligent. After all, if they remembered Stukov and everything, how could they possibly forget about Fenix's death and Raynor's vow that day?

[drakolobo]

haha I think blizzard, suffers this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8I5LJG0GIw

was not strictly necessary that Jim reminds Fenix, it would have been a good tool to highlight their affection, but not required, people do not say everything they think, in fact jim avoided speaking of the Queen of Blades in WoL. jim for hatred was not only the death of Fenix, the death of people, their main loss was the transformation of a person that he appreciated one of the worst forms, becoming a monster, which in Broodwar looked like she had salvation and everything turned out to be a farce. this is seen as a real opportunity to save, he took this, now it made it impossible, and he saves kerrigan, after is kidnapped after being saved, Raynor sees that all he did was useless again betrayed that was a good time to burst of anger again like when he was betrayed for her and fenix died in Broodwar

[ragnarok]

was not strictly necessary that Jim reminds Fenix, it would have been a good tool to highlight their affection, but not required, people do not say everything they think, in fact jim avoided speaking of the Queen of Blades in WoL. jim for hatred was not only the death of Fenix, the death of people, their main loss was the transformation of a person that he appreciated one of the worst forms, becoming a monster, which in Broodwar looked like she had salvation and everything turned out to be a farce. this is seen as a real opportunity to save the take, now it makes it impossible, and he saves kerrigan, after is kidnapped far save him, but sees that all he did was useless again betrayed that was a good time to burst of anger again as when he was betreyed for her and fenix died in Broodwar

Yes that was exactly the case in the "Believe in Me" cutscene. To Raynor, that was the last betrayal. As he saw it, that meant the Kerrigan he fell in love with died on Tarsonis, since (as he saw it) the only thing she regretted after the deinfestation was losing her power and was determined to get it back no matter the cost. Kerrigan knew Raynor would think that and it would be pointless to try to convince him otherwise, he wasn't going to listen.

[Turalyon]

^ BUT SHE, THE QUEEN OF BLADES, SAVED RAYNOR ON THE MOROS!!!

This act alone is as far removed from what the BW Queen of Blades (God! Now I have start delineating that there are two QoBs. Yeesh!) would have ever done. It's a clear indicator she's different, apart from looking tentacly and gross, and would've dissolved any fears that Raynor had about Kerrigan possibly being "evil" again. Raynor is just being a complete dick for calling her out about Fenix after this supposedly blackly evil person rescued his damned hide. That Fenix line is not only just a namecheck, but a poorly contrived one as well.

Like I said, it would've been more believable if he'd just been angry and repulsed by her physical appearance after he had made her beautiful again in WoL. Then again, maybe he was and was just namechecking Fenix to hide his utter shallowness as a human being. :p

[ragnarok]

^ BUT SHE, THE QUEEN OF BLADES, SAVED RAYNOR ON THE MOROS!!!

This act alone is as far removed from what the BW Queen of Blades (God! Now I have start delineating that there are two QoBs. Yeesh!) would have ever done. It's a clear indicator she's different, apart from looking tentacly and gross, and would've dissolved any fears that Raynor had about Kerrigan possibly being "evil" again. Raynor is just being a complete dick for calling her out about Fenix after this supposedly blackly evil person rescued his damned hide. That Fenix line is not only just a namecheck, but a poorly contrived one as well.

Like I said, it would've been more believable if he'd just been angry and repulsed by her physical appearance after he had made her beautiful again in WoL. Then again, maybe he was and was just namechecking Fenix to hide his utter shallowness as a human being. :p

Oh I know what you mean. Blizzard only put Fenix's mention in that cutscene simply because they felt it was necessary to still acknowledge the guy. In the end it was still just an afterthought.

[drakolobo]

^ BUT SHE, THE QUEEN OF BLADES, SAVED RAYNOR ON THE MOROS!!!
This act alone is as far removed from what the BW Queen of Blades (God! Now I have start delineating that there are two QoBs. Yeesh!) would have ever done. It's a clear indicator she's different, apart from looking tentacly and gross, and would've dissolved any fears that Raynor had about Kerrigan possibly being "evil" again. Raynor is just being a complete dick for calling her out about Fenix after this supposedly blackly evil person rescued his damned hide. That Fenix line is not only just a namecheck, but a poorly contrived one as well.


Kerrigan also sounded very friendly before betraying them all, "oh god please help me I am a victim." jim is fair to expect other than despair and convinced and he need more that only words something more substantial.
In addition, in the context of the average person kerrigan they ruined the possibility of being together all for revenge, truth jim outside the cosmic issues, to rescue him and Kerrigan were a normal woman.

Oh I know what you mean. Blizzard only put Fenix's mention in that cutscene simply because they felt it was necessary to still acknowledge the guy. In the end it was still just an afterthought.

ha blizzard Actually, had not an obligation to talk to Fenix, Jim was not talking profoundly about emotional problems , so I put the fable "old of the boy and the donkey",
Blizzard try to please fans of Fenix (including me) but inevitably there will be people who are not compliant. Now the trouble is that blizard, did obviously in response to complaints from the absence of Fenix, it's funny. the mention of Fenix, is not out of place and fits well to the stressful situation that suffers Jim, give more importance, it is unnecessary

[drakolobo]

.......

[ragnarok]

ha blizzard Actually, I had not an obligation to talk to Fenix, Jim was not talking profoundly about emotional problems , so I put the fable "old of the boy and the donkey",
Blizzard try to please fans of Fenix (including me) but inevitably there will be people who are not compliant. Now the trouble is that blizard, did obviously in response to complaints from the absence of Fenix, it's funny. the mention of Fenix, is not out of place and fits well to the stressful situation that suffers Jim, give more importance, it is unnecessary

Having emotional problems for Raynor was fine, I had no objections to that. But not to remember him would be considered almost like a betrayal to the alliance with the Protoss. This is made worse for the Haven mission when Selendis reminded Raynor of his actions to the Protoss people (before you even make a choice).

[drakolobo]

Having emotional problems for Raynor was fine, I had no objections to that. But not to remember him would be considered almost like a betrayal to the alliance with the Protoss. This is made worse for the Haven mission when Selendis reminded Raynor of his actions to the Protoss people (before you even make a choice).

so try to say that Jim does not speak openly about their loss, is reserved the sensitive issues, which had not mentioned Fenix does not mean they have forgotten.
*
To my WoL shows that the relationship between Jim and the Protoss(in general) is not exactly the same in both directions, Jim felt affection for specific individuals Tassadar first, then Fenix and less Zeratul and Artanis. While Protoss react Raynor as another ally, Jim while respecting the protoss as race, go with some suspicion about protoss actions.
I hope to correct and become canonical the choice of Selendis, obviously knowing the history of the protoss Jim should be correct.

Finally seems to LotV has gestated a scene in honor the relationship of Jim and Protoss

[ragnarok]

Finally seems to LotV has gestated a scene in honor the relationship of Jim and Protoss

Initially it shouldn't. I'm expecting at the beginning, one of the first things Artanis would do is accuse Raynor, "hundreds of thousands of my people are dead because of your inability that the Kerrigan you loved died on Tarsonis all those years ago."

[Turalyon]

Kerrigan also sounded very friendly before betraying them all, "oh god please help me I am a victim." jim is fair to expect other than despair and convinced and he need more that only words something more substantial.
In addition, in the context of the average person kerrigan they ruined the possibility of being together all for revenge, truth jim outside the cosmic issues, to rescue him and Kerrigan were a normal woman.

Raynor is hardly in a position to be of any use to Kerrigan or anyone at this point in HotS story. She's clearly more powerful than ever before and what power Raynor did have in WoL has completely evaporated by that time we see him in jail for HotS. That she is even there to rescue him is an act that would've spoken more loudly that she's not like what she was. Raynor being angry at her is unreasonable and superficial. His first reaction to a selfless action from a person that would not have really benefited from this action is met with a value judgement based on what she looks like (we often call these type of people "arseholes"). Like I said, it seems more that he's just angry probably because Kerrigan ruined his hard work in making her beautiful again.

[ragnarok]

Raynor is hardly in a position to be of any use to Kerrigan or anyone at this point in HotS story. She's clearly more powerful than ever before and what power Raynor did have in WoL has completely evaporated by that time we see him in jail for HotS. That she is even there to rescue him is an act that would've spoken more loudly that she's not like what she was. Raynor being angry at her is unreasonable and superficial. His first reaction to a selfless action from a person that would not have really benefited from this action is met with a value judgement based on what she looks like (we often call these type of people "arseholes"). Like I said, it seems more that he's just angry probably because Kerrigan ruined his hard work in making her beautiful again.

And here I thought you hated the HotS story, Turalyon. It really makes me wonder how much of this you're being sarcastic on (assuming it's less than 100%)

[Turalyon]

Any sarcasm you detect is my way of highlighting the absurdity of how some things in the story are presented. Funnily enough, if Blizz actually meant/intended Raynor to be a total douche like I said above, that would've felt more honest than treating his hamfisted tirade against Kerrigan as being more than just the blatant namecheck that it was. He's supposed to be in love with her isn't he? That's what the story in Sc2 up to that point is trying to sell isn't it? Compared to that, I just find it ironically funny that all it took to put Raynor's love for her on hold here was just the mere sight of her looking ugly again despite him holding a frickin torch for her for 4+ years prior to this.

Also, where did I say I ever liked it? Regardless, subjective preference of something doesn't preclude me from making an observation about how trite Raynor's reaction is toward Kerrigan at the Moros.

[ragnarok]

Any sarcasm you detect is my way of highlighting the absurdity of how some things in the story are presented. Funnily enough, if Blizz actually meant/intended Raynor to be a total douche like I said above, that would've felt more honest than treating his hamfisted tirade against Kerrigan as being more than just the blatant namecheck that it was. He's supposed to be in love with her isn't he? That's what the story in Sc2 up to that point is trying to sell isn't it? Compared to that, I just find it ironically funny that all it took to put Raynor's love for her on hold here was just the mere sight of her looking ugly again despite him holding a frickin torch for her for 4+ years prior to this.

Also, where did I say I ever liked it? Regardless, subjective preference of something doesn't preclude me from making an observation about how trite Raynor's reaction is toward Kerrigan at the Moros.

You can argue all you want the relationship matter is absurd. I felt it was fine had Blizzard not stressed it so badly. The main problem is because no one ever learns in the SC universe. I would expect Artanis to accuse Raynor of having WAY too clouded a judgement on this.

[UrunOfTheAuriga]

"I noticed no real discussion about the Purifiers."

Because probably none is thrilled about the prospect of out of freaking nowhere hamfisted faction, not even with their stupid sexy alien-gynoids.

[UrunOfTheAuriga]

To make it worse, Blizzard is going the not only the cliche route of rebel robots, but the cliche route of "it's all the Conclave's fault." Newsflash, Blizz: the dumber you make the Conclave look, the dumber everyone else is for following it. Besides, wouldn't Templar prejudice make more sense? They'd be working with the cybernetics on a closer level, so their feelings would have more of an affect. .
AMEN!

[Visions of Khas]

wouldn't Templar prejudice make more sense? They'd be working with the cybernetics on a closer level, so their feelings would have more of an affect. .

I'd say they'd have the exact opposite reaction. Working alongside the Purifiers would allow the Templar the chance to see them as more than servants, much like Artanis and the crew of the Spear.

The Conclave are a class unto themselves, clearly out of touch with the world the rest of their race inhabits. Having never worked with the Purifiers or genuine AI, they'd naturally pass legislation demoting the Purifier's "social class."

[ragnarok]

AMEN!

Let's just say this is one of the reasons the Conclave have to impose draconian measures at times. And this is why people are afraid to rebel

- - - Updated - - -


I'd say they'd have the exact opposite reaction. Working alongside the Purifiers would allow the Templar the chance to see them as more than servants, much like Artanis and the crew of the Spear.

The Conclave are a class unto themselves, clearly out of touch with the world the rest of their race inhabits. Having never worked with the Purifiers or genuine AI, they'd naturally pass legislation demoting the Purifier's "social class."

That's how it works with evil regimes all the time even in real life. They always tend to be out of touch with the people, have no grasp on reality

[Visions of Khas]

That's how it works with evil regimes all the time even in real life. They always tend to be out of touch with the people, have no grasp on reality



It's impossible for you and me to understand the rationale behind the Conclave's judgments. But we've never lived through war, either.

This is how I imagine it:

I put myself in the shoes of a refugee in Syria, then I modify it. (I've spoken to Syrian refugees, and things are totally fucked up over there.) In a war that's been raging. For decades. The entire technological might of humanity has rendered the earth a barren wasteland. There is so much history written in blood and violence that nothing else matters. My parents were killed, leaving me in the care of my half-mad uncle who's taught me the basics of living, shooting a gun, and that's it. Through some miracle, I find out about literature. Maybe some propaganda poster. I ask Mad Uncle Henry, "What's this?", and he reads it to me.

Reading? Symbols can mean things? My mind is blown.

I slowly eek out small tidbits about reading and writing from my Uncle. And I start writing a book. No reason, it just provides something for me to do in the dying light of the campfire each night. I don't know the word, "Journal." I'm just writing. About everything I've seen, heard, and done. I don't write down any plans, though. I don't know what "planning" is. Why would I, when I'm not sure I'll be alive to see tomorrow's sun?

He also tells me rumors of someone ending the war. Ending the war? What does that mean? This is just every-day life, after all. Isn't it?


***

Some day, down the line, after the war has died, someone might read that journal. Then they'll get their hands on another from a soldier. Then another from a dictator. More journals are found: orphans and doctors and refugees and scavengers and rapists and murderers and hermits -- they all add their voices to a growing conversation. The students of tomorrow read of the horrors humanity is capable of creating, and instate laws to not only restrict the populace and liberties, but also restrict technological capacity. All in the name of saving us from our selves. It makes sense, doesn't it?


Now imagine you're a protoss. All these acts of horror, desperation, and destruction are magnified. And they span not just this world, but scores of worlds. In centuries of war and strife. You're taught to access your race's communal history, and experience it all first hand. You are filled with fear and disgust. You HAVE to prevent ANY of this from ever happening again.

At any cost.




This is how I imagine the Conclave.

A small group of elders, a class unto themselves forming an echo chamber. Each day they turn to Preservers, individuals that can tell us everything from the dawn of our species with absolute and flawless precision. And these individuals -- a score of them, at most, guiding an entire species living across the stars -- are paralyzed by fear.

Wouldn't you be, too?

[ragnarok]

This is how I imagine the Conclave.

A small group of elders, a class unto themselves forming an echo chamber. Each day they turn to Preservers, individuals that can tell us everything from the dawn of our species with absolute and flawless precision. And these individuals -- a score of them, at most, guiding an entire species living across the stars -- are paralyzed by fear.

Wouldn't you be, too?

Possibly. However I always felt Nissa had a point about the whole Conclave matter for making the Protoss somewhat stupid in following them. Sure there's the fear factor, but that alone isn't enough. I think overall the problem is that the Protoss Templar and Khalai caste kept using the "out of sight, out of mind" mentality. It was only by the time of the swarm invasion of Aiur that this finally changed.

[Turalyon]

The Conclave are a class unto themselves, clearly out of touch with the world the rest of their race inhabits. Having never worked with the Purifiers or genuine AI, they'd naturally pass legislation demoting the Purifier's "social class."

How "out of touch with the world the rest of their race inhabits" could the Conclave be when the Aiuran Protoss have a psionic communal link that connects them to every other individual of their race? Unlike humans who can't read/feel/understand the thoughts of the leaders who represent them, the Protoss can. The wider Protoss population must've been agreeable and/or complicit to some degree with how the Conclave acted otherwise they would have been removed long ago due to this very communal link. Therefore, the Conclave cannot take full responsibility alone for their supposed misjudgement since the link actually makes them more representative of the Protoss as a whole compared to any other species. Pigeon-holing the Conclave as being some sort of specific and separate aberration to Protoss society that must be be expunged because they are clearly evil and wrong seems like a typical reductionist perspective to take in regards to aliens who have greater capabilities than humans.

Having said that though, it would make sense for them denounce anything that is outside of their communal link. The Nerazim being the primary example what with how the Aeon of Strife came about due to Protoss who wilfully disconnected from this communal link. It would naturally make sense for Protoss to think even lesser of other races, like Terrans. AI wouldn't even stand a chance.

[Visions of Khas]

I agree that the Khalai were partly to blame, being complicit in the Conclave's decisions. How much did Khalai society manifest underlying psychological issues? How much of the individual's psyche was influenced/repressed/magnified by the emotional feedback loop of the Khala?

What I'm really interested in is the FUTURE of the Khala. Some protoss will not want to let it go, but the only ones who can adopt it now are converted Tal'darim. Will the High Templar teach it to them? What kind of bad asses will they become?! :D

[ragnarok]

I agree that the Khalai were partly to blame, being complicit in the Conclave's decisions. How much did Khalai society manifest underlying psychological issues? How much of the individual's psyche was influenced/repressed/magnified by the emotional feedback loop of the Khala?

What I'm really interested in is the FUTURE of the Khala. Some protoss will not want to let it go, but the only ones who can adopt it now are converted Tal'darim. Will the High Templar teach it to them? What kind of bad asses will they become?! :D

No, the newer generations of Protoss born can still have the Khala because they're born with the nerve chords. I can imagine it's something hard to let go, since it's something they've had for the last 3000 years. Karax mused that all this time, the Nerazim endured without it, meaning for the Khalai who cut off their chords, it's going to be hell in the days ahead.

[KaiserStratosTygo]

Blizzard games are asshole.

Muspelli, get sad, mate.

[ragnarok]

Blizzard games are asshole.

Muspelli, get sad, mate.

Seriously Stratos, you really have to stop blaming them like this. If you really hate them so much, then just stop buying the games. I think this is a reason why there are youtubers who dislike you, because to them, all you have EVER commented on is how crappy the games are and how the whole Blizzard team should be executed for their failures.

This is one of the reasons why I never felt the the critics on the battlenet forums has EVER seen Blizzard succeed, unless you want to count "they succeeded at failing EVERYTHING."

[KaiserStratosTygo]

"Seriously Stratos, you really have to stop blaming them like this."

No.

I think I'll do it more.

trash company deserves trash treatment!

"If you really hate them so much, then just stop buying the games. "

it's almost as if I made a post on this forum saying I'd do just that!

Oh look! there it is! http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?16339-Do-not-buy-games-from-blizzard&p=200534#post200534

". I think this is a reason why there are youtubers who dislike you"

I couldn't care less for why people dislike me, it makes no difference to me.

I will not change my personality for some worthless cunts on the internet.

I hope blizzard crashes and BURNS.

FEEL THE BURN

[ragnarok]

I keep telling you, this isn't smart....

[Turalyon]

I agree that the Khalai were partly to blame, being complicit in the Conclave's decisions. How much did Khalai society manifest underlying psychological issues? How much of the individual's psyche was influenced/repressed/magnified by the emotional feedback loop of the Khala?

I don't necessarily think of the Conclave's decisions (as represented by Aldaris) were really indicative of the Khalai Protoss having "underlying psyhological issues" generally. They were really just doing things in the interest of the greater good of their own people - like most living things do. It's interesting though since if we want to talk about the problems of Khalai society and want to pin it all on the Conclave, we're not really blaming collectivism as the real reason behind their society's failure but rather the individualistic pursuit of a certain few (in this case, the Conclave). There's a great deal of irony in that given that individualism, especially in Sc2, is touted as always being the best.


What I'm really interested in is the FUTURE of the Khala. Some protoss will not want to let it go, but the only ones who can adopt it now are converted Tal'darim. Will the High Templar teach it to them? What kind of bad asses will they become?! :D

Like Rag said, new Protoss would be born with nerve cords so unless they want to deny their children the opportunity by cutting them off for each birth for whatever reason, I'm sure it'll comeback. Afterall, the source of the taint (Amon) is gone now. The Khala is safe so there's no reason why it shouldn't make a comeback.

[Jconant]

The taint would still be there turalyon; it is apparent amon made flaws in the protoss and the zerg such that he could manipulate both. with amon gone, it would take a very powerful being to usurp protoss through the khala, but it could still be done.

[Turalyon]

^ The key component to all this is Amon. He is not there anymore so therefore, no actual problem exists (it wasn't problem until LotV happened either).... unless another retcon is made where someone even more powerful than Amon was "behind it all". Then again, since Amon set a precedent for this sort of thing already, I can't see why they just can't keep on "pulling that rabbit out" indefinitely if they wanted to. Blizz has been blamed for revisionism for the treatment of their lore with Sc2, so I guess being blamed for being recursive in any follow-up as well shouldn't faze them much either. :p

[ragnarok]

Like Rag said, new Protoss would be born with nerve cords so unless they want to deny their children the opportunity by cutting them off for each birth for whatever reason, I'm sure it'll comeback. Afterall, the source of the taint (Amon) is gone now. The Khala is safe so there's no reason why it shouldn't make a comeback.

It's too risky. I would start it off where only a very small amount are allowed the Khala, over an indefinite period of time, and go from there

[Turalyon]

It's too risky.

What risk can you possibly be talking about? Amon was the only risk the Khala had and he is gone. There are no more other Xel'Naga around except for Kerrigan and she's an angel now, so the Protoss are free to Khala away really.

[Nissa]

What Rag appears to be saying is that the 'Toss have no way to guarantee that the Khala won't get curbstomped again. Granted, they have no reason to believe it will, so it's pretty much open ended at this point. We can be mostly sure that the Khala will appear again. Except for the fact Blizz hates everything non-DT....

Actually, if it weren't for LotV, we could be pretty certain that the DT might mostly have disappeared instead. While DT teachings wouldn't be abandoned, there would be no reason to rebel anymore against the Khala, if the factions can get along. Tassadar proved you can have nerve cords and still do DT stuff, so the young people who would have become DT are free to choose both, or even just the Khala, if they really wanted to. Hence, fewer DT over time.

Tura, I also agree super hard with your statement about Protoss society and the Conclave. So many times Blizzard has acted like the Conclave was the source of all the 'Toss problems, when really you have to look at the society as a whole -- surely it wasn't just Judicator who had an anti-DT bias, especially since potential DT could have come from any tribe. In fact, the manual basically states that there were two waves of DT -- the ones that Adun attempted to protect, and the ones that followed after, the ones that cut their nerve cords in solidarity. Seriously, read the manual again. That means there's probably families out there with memories of certain relatives joining the DTs.

In any case, I will continue to pretend that SC2 is bad fanfiction. Onwards and upwards.

[ragnarok]

I'd allow a small number of Protoss to keep the Khala, but tell them of the dangers of it so that they'd be ready to sever their chords at a moment's notice if need be.

This number has to be kept small in the event something goes wrong with the Khala again, other Protoss can forcibly sever it for them if they can't do it themselves

[Visions of Khas]

Do we know if all Aiur Protoss severed their nerve cords? There must have been many across the galaxy, as well as those in orbit fighting the Spear. They couldn't have all heard Artanis' call to sever themselves -- unless Selendis sent out a broadcast to all Khalai through the Khala.

[Turalyon]

What Rag appears to be saying is that the 'Toss have no way to guarantee that the Khala won't get curbstomped again. Granted, they have no reason to believe it will, so it's pretty much open ended at this point.

"Won't be curbstomped" by whom though? It's like we, the audience member, is supposed to expect that the Protoss to expect, in some "meta" way, that there'll be a force even more evil and powerful than Amon that will control them through the Khala if they tried going back to it.


Actually, if it weren't for LotV, we could be pretty certain that the DT might mostly have disappeared instead. While DT teachings wouldn't be abandoned, there would be no reason to rebel anymore against the Khala, if the factions can get along.

Unless I'm mistaken, I thought the DT don't get along swimmingly with the Khalai Protoss even before LotV came out though. Eitherway, since BW I don't really see much of a difference between the Khalai or Nerazim Protoss aside from superficial differences.


I'd allow a small number of Protoss to keep the Khala, but tell them of the dangers of it so that they'd be ready to sever their chords at a moment's notice if need be.

This number has to be kept small in the event something goes wrong with the Khala again, other Protoss can forcibly sever it for them if they can't do it themselves

The Tal'Darim were able to not be part of the Khala yet still keep their nerve chords (and somehow remain impervious to being forced back into Amon's servitude when they rebelled against him), so I'm sure there's a way that they can disconnect from it without resorting to vigilant self-mutilation. The Protoss were able to just disconnect from the Khala like their ancestors did to initiate the Aeon of Strife so I can't see why they can't just do that.


Do we know if all Aiur Protoss severed their nerve cords? There must have been many across the galaxy, as well as those in orbit fighting the Spear. They couldn't have all heard Artanis' call to sever themselves -- unless Selendis sent out a broadcast to all Khalai through the Khala.

The Tal'Darim sure didn't and yet they are still not part of the Khala. I'm assuming all Khala using Protoss would have had to sever their chords though, otherwise, Amon wouldn't have been completely banished to the Void to be later killed by Ourrigan. Doesn't matter now anyway - Amon's gone and future Protoss children will have nerve chords so "no harm, no foul" in the end.

[TheEconomist]

To make it worse, Blizzard is going the not only the cliche route of rebel robots, but the cliche route of "it's all the Conclave's fault." Newsflash, Blizz: the dumber you make the Conclave look, the dumber everyone else is for following it. Besides, wouldn't Templar prejudice make more sense? They'd be working with the cybernetics on a closer level, so their feelings would have more of an affect. .

I agree with this. The whole thing just dumbed down the entire Protoss lore. They turned it into another human-like, French Revolution, which is not what I wanted from the Protoss. All that talk of freedom fromt he khala, and the caste system, just makes them feel more like fantasy elves instead of Protoss. Probably what they were going for.

I wanted the Protoss to change and get less stupid (they've done their bid as comedic relief) which requires a lot of changes, but, once again, handled poorly.


This act alone is as far removed from what the BW Queen of Blades (God! Now I have start delineating that there are two QoBs. Yeesh!)

Let's just call the new Kerrigan the Angel of Blades, for simplicity sake.

[ragnarok]

\Let's just call the new Kerrigan the Angel of Blades, for simplicity sake.

No, econ. I still want to see her actually act for redemption. She still can do just that, if she can just learn

[TheEconomist]

That's really dumb, but how does calling her the Angel of Blades have anything to do with that?

Also,

*ragpalm*

[Nissa]

I agree with this. The whole thing just dumbed down the entire Protoss lore. They turned it into another human-like, French Revolution, which is not what I wanted from the Protoss. All that talk of freedom fromt he khala, and the caste system, just makes them feel more like fantasy elves instead of Protoss. Probably what they were going for.

I wanted the Protoss to change and get less stupid (they've done their bid as comedic relief) which requires a lot of changes, but, once again, handled poorly.

Not to mention that it's rectonning the dark/light unity of the Protoss, as set up in BW.


Let's just call the new Kerrigan the Angel of Blades, for simplicity sake.

I dunno, I kinda like "Ourrigan".


"Won't be curbstomped" by whom though? It's like we, the audience member, is supposed to expect that the Protoss to expect, in some "meta" way, that there'll be a force even more evil and powerful than Amon that will control them through the Khala if they tried going back to it.

The problem with what you're saying is that you're using the logical part of your brain. Think a minute about Blizz writers. If they felt the need to go out of their way to make the Khala bad, what stops them from making it permanent?

In sentiment, I agree with you. But, ah, when was the last time logic was the basis of the SC story?



Unless I'm mistaken, I thought the DT don't get along swimmingly with the Khalai Protoss even before LotV came out though. Eitherway, since BW I don't really see much of a difference between the Khalai or Nerazim Protoss aside from superficial differences.

Well, that's more or less my point. The upcoming unity of the Protoss over time means that the cultural lines will blur. There won't really be any need for severing nerve cords in the future, more than likely.

[ragnarok]

That's really dumb, but how does calling her the Angel of Blades have anything to do with that?

Also,

*ragpalm*

Redemption isn't dumb, and calling her that only implies more killing.

[Gradius]

I've just been calling her Retardigan.

[ragnarok]

I've just been calling her Retardigan.

Just like PsioniX. This is why it's going to be hard to find a way to work out redemption in fanfics, but I will try to find a way, if I can find the time to write one

[TheEconomist]

Redemption isn't dumb, and calling her that only implies more killing.

*Ragpalm*

[ragnarok]

*Ragpalm*

What? It is. That being said, it's very difficult to see something to her beyond just killing

[drakolobo]

What Rag appears to be saying is that the 'Toss have no way to guarantee that the Khala won't get curbstomped again. Granted, they have no reason to believe it will, so it's pretty much open ended at this point. We can be mostly sure that the Khala will appear again. Except for the fact Blizz hates everything non-DT....

Actually, if it weren't for LotV, we could be pretty certain that the DT might mostly have disappeared instead. While DT teachings wouldn't be abandoned, there would be no reason to rebel anymore against the Khala, if the factions can get along. Tassadar proved you can have nerve cords and still do DT stuff, so the young people who would have become DT are free to choose both, or even just the Khala, if they really wanted to. Hence, fewer DT over time.

Tura, I also agree super hard with your statement about Protoss society and the Conclave. So many times Blizzard has acted like the Conclave was the source of all the 'Toss problems, when really you have to look at the society as a whole -- surely it wasn't just Judicator who had an anti-DT bias, especially since potential DT could have come from any tribe. In fact, the manual basically states that there were two waves of DT -- the ones that Adun attempted to protect, and the ones that followed after, the ones that cut their nerve cords in solidarity. Seriously, read the manual again. That means there's probably families out there with memories of certain relatives joining the DTs.

In any case, I will continue to pretend that SC2 is bad fanfiction. Onwards and upwards.

me too i am pro-khalaa and hoped that the Dark Templar lost their fear of the unit that was logic path, while the Khalai lost the fear of narazim life, well it was a surprise lose something that defined the protoss but not reject the concept of legacy of void, I like, really this increase on the hazardous condition and loneliness of artanis , I hope the khala is not discriminated against, because in the end despite being modified, primitive khala was a natural heritage of the protoss.

[ragnarok]

me too i am pro-khalaa and hoped that the Dark Templar lost their fear of the unit that was logic path, while the Khalai lost the fear of narazim life, well it was a surprise lose something that defined the protoss but not reject the concept of legacy of void, I like, really this increase on the hazardous condition and loneliness of artanis , I hope the khala is not discriminated against, because in the end despite being modified, primitive khala was a natural heritage of the protoss.

Except Blizzard retconned that too and made it seem like Amon was the one who created the Khala in the first place

[Nissa]

me too i am pro-khalaa and hoped that the Dark Templar lost their fear of the unit that was logic path, while the Khalai lost the fear of narazim life, well it was a surprise lose something that defined the protoss but not reject the concept of legacy of void, I like, really this increase on the hazardous condition and loneliness of artanis , I hope the khala is not discriminated against, because in the end despite being modified, primitive khala was a natural heritage of the protoss.


That's true. If you look at the manual, the instinctive link between the Protoss was what attracted the Xel'Naga to them in the first place.

[ragnarok]

That's true. If you look at the manual, the instinctive link between the Protoss was what attracted the Xel'Naga to them in the first place.

Yet ruined in LotV by saying this is only what attracted Amon for his plans. Makes me really wonder if we go by the LotV lore, did the regular Xel'Naga really care about the Khala.

[DDay]

Yet ruined in LotV by saying this is only what attracted Amon for his plans. Makes me really wonder if we go by the LotV lore, did the regular Xel'Naga really care about the Khala.

all signs point to NO

next question

[ragnarok]

Regardless, Nissa, I believe the Protoss would eventually find ways to get the Khala back into their society. According to the wiki, after Amon was banished into the void, Artanis vowed to have their society united by more than just the Khala, so it could mean it's not being discarded COMPLETELY

[Jconant]

That and it seems the taldarim have a method to keep themselves from being controlled by amon. They all have their nerve cords intact (although covered by armor) and even when Alarak rebells, they weren't forced to submit like the khalai.

As for the future, protoss can find a way to finess their khala connection by either finding a greater understanding the secrets of the taldarim or expanding on their technology to accommodate this weakness.

[ragnarok]

That and it seems the taldarim have a method to keep themselves from being controlled by amon. They all have their nerve cords intact (although covered by armor) and even when Alarak rebells, they weren't forced to submit like the khalai.

As for the future, protoss can find a way to finess their khala connection by either finding a greater understanding the secrets of the taldarim or expanding on their technology to accommodate this weakness.

The former will require cooperation with the Tal'darim. I don't see it happening any time soon, since their only similarity was the hatred for Amon. With him gone....