So what if Kerrigan doesn't survive LotV?

[Sheliek]

I see this being discussed frequently on the Blizzard equivalent of /b/ that is the US story forum, and I got to thinking. Now, this is just my opinion, and I'm quite positive it could be way off base, but does it really matter if Kerrigan dies or not? Blizzard has said that Legacy of the Void will be the end of the Raynor-Kerrigan story. That doesn't mean they kill one or the other (or both) off, though—as much as some of us might hope it does. It just means that arc is done.

An example from another franchise: yeah, the Empire was crippled in Return of the Jedi: Darth Vader was redeemed and died, Emperor Sheev (srsly) Palpatine was assassinated (rightly so, but let's not mince words), and the Empire's (most likely gratuitously expensive and hard to replace) superweapon was destroyed. And also dead ewoks hopefully. The Empire as it stood for decades was pretty much neutered and the good guys won. That story arc is over. But the Empire is still a major player, if not as much as it used to be (in the old EU, anyway; no idea how that'll play out in the new movie), and conflict still happened frequently. I guess you can see where I'm going.

So I'm gonna copy-paste my random story theorycrafting from a thread there, see what you guys think, hear your opinions.

I'm cool if Kerrigan survives and becomes this background entity in future installments. Basically masterminding the Swarm. She's there, and while she is the big-wig in that race's 'political' interactions with the other races, she's calling the shots and everything, I'd really prefer they explore the new-found independence of her minions. She's got the fully independent Stukov, the independent-but-loyal brood-mothers, pretty much the entire notable parts of the primals on her side. She's got a diverse set of minions, and I'd love to see this internal power-play between them. I can definitely see Zagara being a main figure in the zerg after this game regardless of whether Kerrigan lives or not.

In SCIII, here's what I'd love to see:

The StarCraft artbooks so far show a variety of different queen body configurations and roles. Keep the normal queen as we know it, keep Zagara with her iconic queen variation look. All well and good. But bring back the half a dozen other designs Blizzard has revealed, have each brood-mother look different, look like they're perfectly designed for the role they play and have their personalities reflect that. And that's not even pointing out the Swarm in-lore is currently using two (possibly three if the SC1 queen makes a return in AC or LotV; let's call that one the brood queen because she's all about broodlings and parasites): the swarm queen from HotS and what I'd call the hatchery queen from multiplayer.

If Kerrigan remains, we can have Zagara and Naktul and Kilysa (the three currently-living BMs mentioned most frequently), each with different biological makeups, and thus psychological makeups. They play different roles, they have different character, and they could really interact well with each other and the other races (not to mention Stukov and the primals -- and I'm sure there will end up being other primals in a suitably epic zerg story).

If Kerrigan doesn't survive, everything I just said but with a lot of power-play added into the mix. Broodmothers fighting over Kerrigan's legacy and memories in the form of Iszha. Attempting to gain control over Abathur, or create an equivalent to gain an edge over the others. Wars of assimilation throughout the sector and beyond to find the most powerful fauna and flora to incorporate -- we could see diverse broods with diverse units akin to the terrans in WoL and the protoss in LotV. It could be really interesting.

[TheEconomist]

To put it shortly, I will do a happy dance. Not that I didn't like how the character started, but, well, you know ...

Kerrigan in her current interpretation makes the Zerg too human, too emotional, too irrational, for what they are and what they should be. At the very least, Admiral Stukov or some one like him should take over, but it might be even better if its purely a Brood Mother or Cerebrate operation. Resurrection of an Overmind? I can only dream.

[Sheliek]

To put it shortly, I will do a happy dance. Not that I didn't like how the character started, but, well, you know ...

Kerrigan in her current interpretation makes the Zerg too human, too emotional, too irrational, for what they are and what they should be. At the very least, Admiral Stukov or some one like him should take over, but it might be even better if its purely a Brood Mother or Cerebrate operation. Resurrection of an Overmind? I can only dream.

That's why I prefaced with an explicit desire that if she does survive, she's an Orcus on the throne style leader, mostly appearing for diplomatic purposes with her reluctant allies. If she survives, I'd be disappointed if she were the main character in the zerg campaigns of tomorrow. Present? Yeah. Make her the DuGalle of the campaign. She's there, she's ordering you around. But you'd be the one getting things done in your part of the sector.

[sandwich_bird]

Having any kind of power figure(such as BMs) is a step in the wrong direction imo because this reflects too much our own society. What I'd rather see is the zerg act more like a true swarm intelligence with the complete decentralization of "government". Basically, absolutely no one is ruling them but somehow, the swarm as a whole makes coherent decisions towards self growth. You could see this change of mindset occur as some kind of "cancer" grow in their psi-link. Kerrigan or/and her BMs would be then faced with stopping this new tumor(hopefully, eventually being consumed by it). This would effectively remove any kind of crap introduced in SC2 and return to what I believe the Zergs were meant to be.

Of course, having the Zerg be enemy #1 again would kinda be deja-vu so I'd try to fix this problem by introducing some kind of political/sci-fi intrigue that leads to a new threat. For example(keep in mind that I'm making this up as I go), Valyrian's grandson (screw Valyrian.. he's just a boring WoW's Anduin clone.. better have someone new), being fed fake history lessons about the once "grand Dominion", wants to bring back the glory of his forebear. To achieve this, he takes a page right off of Mengsk book and try to control the zerg swarm to destroy his enemies. Hence, the creation of the tumor. Now, I know that having evil swarm and Mengsk 2.0 is again deja-vu, but this would be my way of paying homage to SC1 while introducing the new big bad threat: psi-energy beings.

Honestly, I thought Xel-Naga were gonna be psi-beings from the start but since Blizzard decided to instead go with upgraded god Protoss or whatever; their loss!.. We'd then learn that psi energy is actually the result of a universe collapsing into SC's universe right at the Kropulu sector. This collision would have been the cause of both the creation of the psi-energy and the void energy. Psi-energy would have been caused by the introduction of new matter into SC's universe while void energy would be caused by the energy released of the destruction of matter.

Mengsk 2.0, by messing with psi-matter would have effectively created a large breach between the 2 universes leading to an increase in psi matter. In the end, concentrated psi-energy would eventually give birth to the psi beings. Psi-beings motive could be to try and increase the breach or something(which would eventually lead to the destruction of SC's universe)...

Ok I'm done...

[Turalyon]

Having any kind of power figure(such as BMs) is a step in the wrong direction imo because this reflects too much our own society. What I'd rather see is the zerg act more like a true swarm intelligence with the complete decentralization of "government". Basically, absolutely no one is ruling them but somehow, the swarm as a whole makes coherent decisions towards self growth. You could see this change of mindset occur as some kind of "cancer" grow in their psi-link. Kerrigan or/and her BMs would be then faced with stopping this new tumor(hopefully, eventually being consumed by it). This would effectively remove any kind of crap introduced in SC2 and return to what I believe the Zergs were meant to be.

+1 to this.

I would rather this "cancer" (only Kerrigan would see this as a "cancer" given that it would be eroding her power over the Zerg) be a natural development of the Swarm rather than a plot gimmick introduced by Terrans though. It'd be a nice way to give back some agency to the Zerg. Having them evolve to overcome their weakness of having lost the Overmind shows growth and it'll harken back to the inherent power and specialness of their purity of essence being incontrovertible/ something that no outsider (like can Kerrigan) can subvert. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that it'd be the exact same Overmind coming back again since that'd be repetitious but we could tweak the motivation of this new hive intelligence to something that incorporates having to tolerate the existence of other powers that are equal to them for example.

It'd also give them a chance to have a proper reason for inter-Zerg conflict (which we didn't really see in BW) since it brings back something that Kerrigan actually fears (being controlled again) and gives her something else of more equal threat to fight. Having internal wars would also minimise the Zerg from being the #1 threat all the time, too. That's the only reason I can see for keeping Kerrigan around since her current position and power level sort of restricts her from having any more worthwhile forward momentum. Like Mengsk, she's sort of written into a corner such that the only thing they can do with her is to remove her somehow. Would've been nice (like it would've been for Mengsk if they went down that path) had they diminish a character without outright removing them but yet keep it interesting since it's something they haven't really done.

Either way,it has more scope than the current iteration of the Primal Zerg which really just came off as a sudden invention that served only to oh-so-conveniently power-up the Zerg "but in a good way". I can't really see how much more they can be used beyond mechanical plot progression since they have no depth like the Dark Templar/Nerazim.

[TheEconomist]

The more I think about that possibility, the more I like it.

[Jconant]

Turalyon, your idea is why I like the zerg supporting characters. Abathur serves as the zerg "purist", the agent that will logically keep the swarm malleable, efficient and controllable, dehaka is the rogue/ anarchist, who'd only care about himself / individual zerg not being dominated by a single entity; he is loyal to kerrigan because of mutual gain. He can gain essence and thrive in the manner he is accustomed to so long as he doesn't undermine the top dog.

Zagara is kerrigan's legacy. If zagara was killed off or kept as simpleminded as she was in the first encounter, zerg command would continue the overmind and cerebrate model under a different name. The overmind's death, the threat of the hybrid, the growing of the second overmind (broodwar) and amon demonstrate the need for zerg to have unity under leadership of a pack leader, but not one so dependant they are undermined by assasination. Instead zagara is a will that can think for herself and defy Amon or any other entity competing for complete control of the swarm.

I omitted other characters, but the theme is consistent with them too. Kerrigan had a selfish intent behind her actions, but the consequences are a foundation set in motion for the swarm to compensate for the weakness Amon purposely implemented in his design.

[Turalyon]

^ Yeah, it would be nice to somehow have Kerrigan's "New Swarm" (with supporting "individual" Zerg characters) face off against "Old Swarm" (purity of essence in that the Zerg maintain being Zerg despite change/hivemind/emergent Overmind equivalent). We never really had that before. Honestly, I would actually find that idea more interesting than the current Kerrigan (or everyone) vs Amon thing they have got going on.

[Nissa]

While inter-Zerg conflict would be great, I'd prefer that the BMs be left out of it. They're...well, lame. Zagara is insultingly unintelligent, and it's weird to have any Zerg named "mother." Kerrigan having rivals would be great, though. The "cancer" idea is great.

As far as Kerrigan dying goes, I agree that it doesn't matter now (if she'd died in LOTV that would've been great). I doubt the story will much improve either way, as things are. I just hope they don't end her with a "noble sacrifice." In the end, my personal preference would be that Kerrigan is either (1) allowed by the other races to remain queen of blades to keep any Overmind-like control over the Zerg in check, since she's a human and always lacked the motivation to destroy things the way the Overmind intended -- or (2) Kerrigan is ultimately removed from the swarm, her life in ruins. She then spends the rest of her life in a lab as a test subject to help people become de-infested, and fades out of the plot.

[TheEconomist]

I imagine effective Brood Mothers being mobile Cerebrates, basically :D

[Nissa]

I imagine effective Brood Mothers being mobile Cerebrates, basically :D

Re-named moble cerebrates. With entirely different personalities. And voice actors.

[Turalyon]

While inter-Zerg conflict would be great, I'd prefer that the BMs be left out of it.

As much as I dislike them too (well, more about how they were written and represented rather than mere the idea of them), they're an essential part of Kerrigan's "New Swarm" now. They would provide a clear difference between new and old Swarm since their greater independance could be explored as a wild-card. Do they want to bow to Kerrigan or go back to the unity that the old Swarm brings? Plus, it could be another source of inter-Zerg conflict within Kerrigan's new Swarm since her power over them isn't absolute. It'd be more interesting than the half-baked dynamic with Kerrigan and Zagara we had in HotS where the latter just acquiesces to the formers every whim just because.


As far as Kerrigan dying goes, I agree that it doesn't matter now (if she'd died in LOTV that would've been great). I doubt the story will much improve either way, as things are. I just hope they don't end her with a "noble sacrifice."

The more I think about this, the more I actually want Kerrigan to remain alive as part of the Zerg since that'd be harder (and interesting) to write for moving forward. Having her removed (not necessarily dying mind you) nobly or ignobly by the end of LotV is seemingly more and more of an easy "out" for the direction of her character. Like Mengsk in Sc2 being rail-roaded into his demise due to a lack of imagination of the writers (I never believed Mengsk's character was exhausted of opportunities as the reason to justify his removal), I can only hope that the outcome of Kerrigan isn't so "pat".


In the end, my personal preference would be that Kerrigan is either (1) allowed by the other races to remain queen of blades to keep any Overmind-like control over the Zerg in check, since she's a human and always lacked the motivation to destroy things the way the Overmind intended -- or (2) Kerrigan is ultimately removed from the swarm, her life in ruins. She then spends the rest of her life in a lab as a test subject to help people become de-infested, and fades out of the plot.

The way things are, it's hard to fathom option (1) ever being possible since the Protoss would never suffer Kerrigan to live in any capacity given the amount of trauma she's caused them. Once Amon is removed, I'm pretty sure their priorities would be to try removing Kerrigan and the Zerg. Also, Kerrigan's continued presence and control of the Zerg is sort of at odds with her "supposed" burgeoning and rediscovered humanity. If she was intent on keeping the Overmind from coming back and doing the universe some real good having found her "goddness" again, she would just direct the entire Swarm into a star after Amon was defeated. Without her, the Zerg are nothing more than dangerous uncontrolled weapons and with her, she's a target because no-one will trust her with that power over the Zerg. If she's supposedly good, she wouldn't want to be in control of them anymore... unless they make her a bitch again or retcon that she was never good to begin with.

Option (2) would be an interesting choice, especially if she's stuck as a lab rat for the Protoss... One could make that out as both a redemption and justice for Kerrigan's actions whilst still keeping her alive!

[TheEconomist]

Re-named moble cerebrates. With entirely different personalities. And voice actors.

Disagree on all accounts.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moble
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mobile?s=t

[Nissa]

As much as I dislike them too (well, more about how they were written and represented rather than mere the idea of them), they're an essential part of Kerrigan's "New Swarm" now. They would provide a clear difference between new and old Swarm since their greater independance could be explored as a wild-card. Do they want to bow to Kerrigan or go back to the unity that the old Swarm brings? Plus, it could be another source of inter-Zerg conflict within Kerrigan's new Swarm since her power over them isn't absolute. It'd be more interesting than the half-baked dynamic with Kerrigan and Zagara we had in HotS where the latter just acquiesces to the formers every whim just because.

I agree. They're just executionally bad, and with a bad name. As a concept, they are fine.


The more I think about this, the more I actually want Kerrigan to remain alive as part of the Zerg since that'd be harder (and interesting) to write for moving forward. Having her removed (not necessarily dying mind you) nobly or ignobly by the end of LotV is seemingly more and more of an easy "out" for the direction of her character. Like Mengsk in Sc2 being rail-roaded into his demise due to a lack of imagination of the writers (I never believed Mengsk's character was exhausted of opportunities as the reason to justify his removal), I can only hope that the outcome of Kerrigan isn't so "pat".

Well, the reason why I say she should have died in LotV is because that would have been more emotionally satisfying than Mengsk dying. I'll be honest, I was rooting for him in the end. As far a the future goes, she really should live.


The way things are, it's hard to fathom option (1) ever being possible since the Protoss would never suffer Kerrigan to live in any capacity given the amount of trauma she's caused them.

I disagree. I think the current story makes it waaay more likely this is a possibility. Not only does the prophecy nonsense confirm her general usefulness, Zeratul went out of his way to save her. That's bound to influence the opinion of the other Protoss. Not to mention that Mengsk is an expert at tolerating people he really shouldn't when he thinks it will serve his purposes. Clearly Kerri is important for doing something big, and that potentially could work out for her remaining in charge of the swarm, unlikely as it may seem.

It will, however, be a more likely option depending on what Amon does. If he, or someone likewise more willing to kill indescriminately than Kerrigan, attempts to get the swarm back, the more logical humans and 'Toss can be willing to let Kerrigan keep her position, even for only the length of one game. Or Kerrigan keeps her power herself, and the others decide that stopping the hybrids is more important than chasing her, for the time being. At this point it can go either way.


Option (2) would be an interesting choice, especially if she's stuck as a lab rat for the Protoss... One could make that out as both a redemption and justice for Kerrigan's actions whilst still keeping her alive!

If Kerri gets more emo, this is the one I want.


Disagree on all accounts.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/moble
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mobile?s=t

I know what mobile means. What I don't know is what the heck you're talking about. Unless you meant to say that you wanted the queens to be hooded.

[TheEconomist]

Oh the miscommunication!

[Turalyon]

I disagree. I think the current story makes it waaay more likely this is a possibility. Not only does the prophecy nonsense confirm her general usefulness, Zeratul went out of his way to save her.

Yeah, but we're talking about at the end of LotV right? The prophecy stuff will have finished up by that point and Kerri's part would've been fulfilled. Besides, it seems Kerri's battle against Amon seems to be more self-serving than as a genuine means to mend fences with the Protoss. If Zeratul did manage to get the Protoss to unite with Kerrigan, it would only be against this common enemy. Once Amon is removed, the Protoss would have no reason to tolerate her continued existence and potential threat if she remains in control of the Zerg.


Not to mention that Mengsk is an expert at tolerating people he really shouldn't when he thinks it will serve his purposes.

What's Mengsk got to do with it?


It will, however, be a more likely option depending on what Amon does. If he, or someone likewise more willing to kill indescriminately than Kerrigan, attempts to get the swarm back, the more logical humans and 'Toss can be willing to let Kerrigan keep her position, even for only the length of one game. Or Kerrigan keeps her power herself, and the others decide that stopping the hybrids is more important than chasing her, for the time being. At this point it can go either way.

Kerrigan still kills indiscriminately (and gives mercy indiscriminately as well) - she does it as recently as in HotS!!

The option also exists where after they've dealt with Amon, they could just "remove" (not necessarily killing) Kerrigan right after and then subsequently destroy the Zerg entirely as they fight amongst themselves. It's more practical than just trusting someone (again!) who has done nothing but abuse any trust that was given previously. Do you think the Protoss would want to risk letting Kerrigan do her own thing again after what she did to them during BW. She's totally unreliable and untrustworthy when it comes to things other than her own personal self-interest.

It can't be too difficult to get rid of feral Zerg. The Protoss are getting ready to take back Aiur from feral Zerg and we know that it's possible for feral Zerg to be contained easily since we see the Terrans alone being capable of managing the remaining Zerg on Char when Kerri became deinfested at the end of WoL. It only went pear-shaped because Kerrigan came back to rally the Zerg. With the Protoss behind/assisting the Terrans, they could just wipe out all the feral Zerg, thereby ending any future potential threat the Zerg could ever possess altogether.

[Nissa]

Yeah, but we're talking about at the end of LotV right? The prophecy stuff will have finished up by that point and Kerri's part would've been fulfilled. Besides, it seems Kerri's battle against Amon seems to be more self-serving than as a genuine means to mend fences with the Protoss. If Zeratul did manage to get the Protoss to unite with Kerrigan, it would only be against this common enemy. Once Amon is removed, the Protoss would have no reason to tolerate her continued existence and potential threat if she remains in control of the Zerg.

It all depends on how it's written. While yes, it's more temporary than a permanent state of existence, but we are talking about one game. Even if her quest against Amon is self-serving, Amon's going to freakin' destroy everything. Kerrigan is far less of a threat than that, so she can be tolerated. Plus, the prophecy is so obfuscated at this point that it can mean absolutely anything, so there's no way of adding a time limit to it.


What's Mengsk got to do with it?

Everything. Kinda hard for Kerrigan to be considered the lesser of two evils if Mengsk doesn't agree.

OH! Wait, I forgot, he's dead. *curses internally because I'm a lady* Well, okay, let's say by "Mengsk", I mean the primary human governments that know enough about her to want to destroy her.

.....

Blizz, if you're reading this, and I know you are, I don't think I can forgive you for killing Mengsk.



Kerrigan still kills indiscriminately (and gives mercy indiscriminately as well) - she does it as recently as in HotS!!

Kerrigan kills people because they're in her way. If someone's not in her way, hasn't done anything to her, and doesn't have anything she wants, she doesn't bother. Unlike the Overmind, which planned on dominating the universe.

It's not that Kerri's a good person, it's just that she lacks the strong will of the Overmind for universal conquest. Because her motivations are personal, she wouldn't see the point.


The option also exists where after they've dealt with Amon, they could just "remove" (not necessarily killing) Kerrigan right after and then subsequently destroy the Zerg entirely as they fight amongst themselves. It's more practical than just trusting someone (again!) who has done nothing but abuse any trust that was given previously. Do you think the Protoss would want to risk letting Kerrigan do her own thing again after what she did to them during BW. She's totally unreliable and untrustworthy when it comes to things other than her own personal self-interest.

That's true, but it's all a matter of power. It depends on if they can destroy the zerg themselves, or if something/one else with more potent motivations than Kerrigan can steal them for his own. Basically, almost any option is open, depending on how Blizz wants to spin it.


It can't be too difficult to get rid of feral Zerg. The Protoss are getting ready to take back Aiur from feral Zerg and we know that it's possible for feral Zerg to be contained easily since we see the Terrans alone being capable of managing the remaining Zerg on Char when Kerri became deinfested at the end of WoL. It only went pear-shaped because Kerrigan came back to rally the Zerg. With the Protoss behind/assisting the Terrans, they could just wipe out all the feral Zerg, thereby ending any future potential threat the Zerg could ever possess altogether.

Uh, well, maybe. It's still a matter of power and competition. It's a bit hard for me to believe that Kerri is the only one who wants control of the Zerg, but hey, that won't necessarily stop Blizz from writing things that way.

[TheEconomist]

I disagree. I think the current story makes it waaay more likely this is a possibility. Not only does the prophecy nonsense confirm her general usefulness, Zeratul went out of his way to save her.

There's a precedent for this, you know :D Kind of like how all of StarCraft and Brood War was setting Kerrigan up to the one to kill then StarCraft 2 forces her to be the one to save and then to kill/save/something.

[Turalyon]

Plus, the prophecy is so obfuscated at this point that it can mean absolutely anything, so there's no way of adding a time limit to it.

As I read this, a certain meme featuring Steve Carell's Michael Scott drifted into my mind...


Kerrigan kills people because they're in her way. If someone's not in her way, hasn't done anything to her, and doesn't have anything she wants, she doesn't bother. Unlike the Overmind, which planned on dominating the universe.

Yeah, but only she knows whom or what is in her way based on her own twisted logic and current mood at any given time. To the rest of us, it seems like she's indiscriminate. And sure, this could also apply to the Overmind and it's pursuit of perfection, but because it had planned or decided on "assimilating the best whilst killing the rest" as it's sacred mission from the get-go, the audience knows that it's actions are not inherently indiscriminate.


It depends on if they can destroy the zerg themselves, or if something/one else with more potent motivations than Kerrigan can steal them for his own.

The Protoss think they can retake Aiur whilst Kerrigan is still around, so getting rid of the Swarm would be even easier without Kerrigan being in the way and controlling them. The threat that the Zerg could still be used as weapons against them would expedite their decision to kill Kerrigan after taking care (or even during) of Amon because, well, you know, she's the only other person that can control those weapons.

Besides, I'm sick of seeing the Zerg as merely being weapons and tools (ie: plot device) to be used. It irked me a little in BW that the Zerg were treated this way though I accepted this as a plausible and interesting change/consequence in the dynamics of the Zerg after what happened to them in Sc1 (Kerrigan being a badass certainly helped). However, I don't want this (needing a leader or being controlled or being used as plot device by some other force) to be a permanent defining feature of them since it devalues everything that was interesting about them and it sort of devalues the Protoss since the Zerg are supposed to be the opposing and equal half of the Protoss. The Zerg need their own sense of agency back - they won't get that being under control by someone/thing else, especially if that someone is still Kerrigan.

[Nissa]

As I read this, a certain meme featuring Steve Carell's Michael Scott drifted into my mind...

I'm not familiar with it.


Yeah, but only she knows whom or what is in her way based on her own twisted logic and current mood at any given time. To the rest of us, it seems like she's indiscriminate. And sure, this could also apply to the Overmind and it's pursuit of perfection, but because it had planned or decided on "assimilating the best whilst killing the rest" as it's sacred mission from the get-go, the audience knows that it's actions are not inherently indiscriminate.

That's not the point. And yes, outsiders do know that Kerrigan is less willful and more personal than the Overmind. Kerrigan has treated Mengsk, Raynor, DuGalle, Zeratul like little pawns, and she informed Mengsk and Zeratul directly that her motives were less about promoting the Zerg and more about her own revenge -- Mengsk lives because she wants him to witness her greatness, and Zer lives because Kerrigan wants him to suffer for having killed Raszagal. Her behavior is always one of consistent self-service, whereas the Overmind thought of nothing outside the glory of the swarm -- remember too that Zeratul touched his mind.

Basically put, Kerrigan, even in Zerg form, acts like a human. Natural Zerg do not. It's as plain as the eyes on her face to anyone who's met her.


The Protoss think they can retake Aiur whilst Kerrigan is still around, so getting rid of the Swarm would be even easier without Kerrigan being in the way and controlling them. The threat that the Zerg could still be used as weapons against them would expedite their decision to kill Kerrigan after taking care (or even during) of Amon because, well, you know, she's the only other person that can control those weapons.

Besides, I'm sick of seeing the Zerg as merely being weapons and tools (ie: plot device) to be used. It irked me a little in BW that the Zerg were treated this way though I accepted this as a plausible and interesting change/consequence in the dynamics of the Zerg after what happened to them in Sc1 (Kerrigan being a badass certainly helped). However, I don't want this (needing a leader or being controlled or being used as plot device by some other force) to be a permanent defining feature of them since it devalues everything that was interesting about them and it sort of devalues the Protoss since the Zerg are supposed to be the opposing and equal half of the Protoss. The Zerg need their own sense of agency back - they won't get that being under control by someone/thing else, especially if that someone is still Kerrigan.

I'm not saying you're wrong, because you aren't. It's just that everything is open at this point, and Blizz can logically justify many kinds of situations. Besides, the Zerg have always been a race of peons. They're going to be controlled by somebody, natural Zerg or otherwise.

Yeah, I know, Econ. It's just that SC2 is way less subtle about it.

[Turalyon]

I'm not familiar with it.

See here (http://giphy.com/gifs/the-office-no-steve-carell-12XMGIWtrHBl5e).


That's not the point.

I'm not really sure what point your exactly making but all I'm saying is that Kerrigan's choice of targets is seemingly more indiscriminate in contrast to the Overmind's choice of targets on an objective level.


Besides, the Zerg have always been a race of peons. They're going to be controlled by somebody, natural Zerg or otherwise.

If that's true, then Kerrigan is nothing but a big peon herself. Either way, I feel that this is a big misconception about the Zerg that's been fostered since Kerrigan took control of them in BW - it's part of the thing I said previously that irked me about this ongoing direction of the Zerg.

In their initially conceived state, the Zerg are not controlled by a leader (ie: Overmind) because there is no leader in a collective hive-mind per se. The Overmind character is merely a simplification to describe the gestalt of all the drives of each individual Zerg - the instinct to survive, self-preserve, grow, expand at all costs but writ large as a whole. The concept being that the Zerg and the hivemind are so intertwined such that one part can't be wholly removed without the other part being wholly removed also - "the Overmind/the hivemind" and "the Zerg" should be considered synonymous.

[Nissa]

I'm not really sure what point your exactly making but all I'm saying is that Kerrigan's choice of targets is seemingly more indiscriminate in contrast to the Overmind's choice of targets on an objective level.

I'm saying the exact opposite of this. Kerrigan is not indiscriminate, seemingly or otherwise. She makes the exact choices of targets as an insecure human with too much power would. Everybody's a target to the Overmind.




If that's true, then Kerrigan is nothing but a big peon herself. Either way, I feel that this is a big misconception about the Zerg that's been fostered since Kerrigan took control of them in BW - it's part of the thing I said previously that irked me about this ongoing direction of the Zerg.

In their initially conceived state, the Zerg are not controlled by a leader (ie: Overmind) because there is no leader in a collective hive-mind per se. The Overmind character is merely a simplification to describe the gestalt of all the drives of each individual Zerg - the instinct to survive, self-preserve, grow, expand at all costs but writ large as a whole. The concept being that the Zerg and the hivemind are so intertwined such that one part can't be wholly removed without the other part being wholly removed also - "the Overmind/the hivemind" and "the Zerg" should be considered synonymous.

Kerri isn't a peon. She's "special" because "the greatness of her spirit has been left to her." She's capable of making her own decisions, whereas a zergling is directionless without a stronger mind controlling it. That's what I mean by "peon" -- a minion incapable of unified, clear action in the absence of a greater mind guiding it (overmind, cerebrate, Kerri, whoever). The Zerg have always been that way. They aren't the pre-Borg queen Borg.

[Turalyon]

Kerrigan is not indiscriminate, seemingly or otherwise. She makes the exact choices of targets as an insecure human with too much power would. Everybody's a target to the Overmind.

Oh, but she is indiscriminate and we can make that judgement of her objectively speaking. Her actions speak for themselve eg: she goes from sparing Mengsk to then killing him for the exact same reason (that he tried to kill her) and kills a plethora of people/aliens that are unrelated to her purported main goal of killing just one man. She then goes out of her way not to kill some other people later only because she was called out on being evil - when she couldn't even govern/censor herself to do the same thing with those other Terran worlds she casually overran before when expediency was her excuse - why not use this excuse in the last instance on Korhal? She's wishy-washy/indiscriminate, that's what! Part of being not indiscriminate is that she needs to show some sense of considered judgement and planning in her decisions/actions. There is none to be had to explain those actions I mentioned. It's that or she is indeed carefully planning those actions (which is arbitrary since there's no realy way we can tell) which would be fine as long as she is also labelled as being pure evil without question (yeah, some people think she can still be defined as morally good.... go figure).

The Zerg are very discriminating - they only attack the Terrans to get at their psionics and once they did, they left Terran space altogether. This backs up their ethos of targeting only species that would seek to improve them. Everybody is only a target insofar as there being something the Overmind wants out of them or if they're a direct threat to them (naturally). Therefore, the Zerg are not indiscriminate.


Kerri isn't a peon. She's "special" because "the greatness of her spirit has been left to her." She's capable of making her own decisions, whereas a zergling is directionless without a stronger mind controlling it. That's what I mean by "peon" -- a minion incapable of unified, clear action in the absence of a greater mind guiding it (overmind, cerebrate, Kerri, whoever). The Zerg have always been that way. They aren't the pre-Borg queen Borg.

If Kerrigan is a Zerg then she is, by your logic, a peon as well. Kerri seems to know this since she fears being under the control of the hivemind again which, if you regard Zerg as being peons, makes her just another potential peon but with a longer leash... still a peon. Note that this "specialness" is based on the condition that no Zerg can stray from the Overmind's will.

If Kerrigan is not a Zerg, than what the hell is she still doing there controlling them (assuming she survives LotV and continues leading the Swarm)? If they're so a terrible and evil, why not just move them all into the nearest star and be done with them? There is no need for them to exist on a practical level and pose more danger than what they're worth since they can be usurped by anyone with power greater than Kerrigan (which in this universe, could be any invention the writers decide to cook up later).

Besides, a Zergling without the hivemind just act like a normal animal. It's only "mindless/directionless" in comparision to human sapience and unified action in numbers. They still have their instinctual need to survive, self-preserve, grow and expand, (it's the same cornerstone of the Overmind/Hiveminds motivations) just not on a "larger" (more than one individual) level. We don't call animals or pets without owners/"greater directing minds" peons, do we?

[DonnyZeDoof]

Even if Kerrigan dies, shes going to respawn.

[ragnarok]

I'm saying the exact opposite of this. Kerrigan is not indiscriminate, seemingly or otherwise. She makes the exact choices of targets as an insecure human with too much power would. Everybody's a target to the Overmind.


That's hard to say given her actions in HotS in killing millions just for the sake to get to Mengsk. Granted it's not like the Dominion military would have stepped aside anyway, but still.

With regards to specifically targeting, that's harder to say. If Amon's threat never existed, she might have done just that in the aftermath of the BW.


Oh, but she is indiscriminate and we can make that judgement of her objectively speaking. Her actions speak for themselve eg: she goes from sparing Mengsk to then killing him for the exact same reason (that he tried to kill her) and kills a plethora of people/aliens that are unrelated to her purported main goal of killing just one man. She then goes out of her way not to kill some other people later only because she was called out on being evil - when she couldn't even govern/censor herself to do the same thing with those other Terran worlds she casually overran before when expediency was her excuse - why not use this excuse in the last instance on Korhal? She's wishy-washy/indiscriminate, that's what! Part of being not indiscriminate is that she needs to show some sense of considered judgement and planning in her decisions/actions. There is none to be had to explain those actions I mentioned. It's that or she is indeed carefully planning those actions (which is arbitrary since there's no realy way we can tell) which would be fine as long as she is also labelled as being pure evil without question (yeah, some people think she can still be defined as morally good.... go figure).


For the whole excuse of why she didn't do this prior to Korhal, let's just say this required Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros. Only THEN did she finally begin to see she had gone too far. That's her main problem: without Raynor around, she doesn't understand restraint.

[Turalyon]

For the whole excuse of why she didn't do this prior to Korhal, let's just say this required Raynor's reaction to her on the Moros. Only THEN did she finally begin to see she had gone too far. That's her main problem: without Raynor around, she doesn't understand restraint.

That's a terrible development of Kerrigan's characterisation, especially in light of BW, when all her actions there were wholesale discriminate and Kerrigan owned her decisions no matter what others thought of her. At worst, this position can be terribly sexist as there's implications of a real woman (because Kerrigan was apparently not in BW) not being able to be "good" without intervention from a man. Yeeesh! I'm staying away from that one!!!!!

[ragnarok]

That's a terrible development of Kerrigan's characterisation, especially in light of BW, when all her actions there were wholesale discriminate and Kerrigan owned her decisions no matter what others thought of her. At worst, this position can be terribly sexist as there's implications of a real woman (because Kerrigan was apparently not in BW) not being able to be "good" without intervention from a man. Yeeesh! I'm staying away from that one!!!!!

Well, even if she DID understand restraint, her arrogance factor still remains.

All you have to do is look at the LotV prologue.

Granted she did not attack Zeratul's base, but she threatened him to stay out of her way. Some had argued that she refused to help him save his people because they could be used for hybrids.

However, assuming that really WAS her reasoning, this would still imply self-righteousness:

Essentially what Kerrigan is saying is that only SHE knows what the right thing to do is, whereas all the Protoss are just too damn stupid to do anything.

[Nissa]

That's a terrible development of Kerrigan's characterisation, especially in light of BW, when all her actions there were wholesale discriminate and Kerrigan owned her decisions no matter what others thought of her. At worst, this position can be terribly sexist as there's implications of a real woman (because Kerrigan was apparently not in BW) not being able to be "good" without intervention from a man. Yeeesh! I'm staying away from that one!!!!!

There's nothing sexist about being rescued by a man. However, Kerrigan owning her decisions was always the more interesting take.

[ragnarok]

There's nothing sexist about being rescued by a man. However, Kerrigan owning her decisions was always the more interesting take.

Except Kerrigan took Raynor for granted for way too long. Only during the cold reception on the Moros did she begin to understand that.

[Turalyon]

There's nothing sexist about being rescued by a man.

Didn't say it was. I said it had the potential for some unfortunate implications, that's all. Besides, who said anything about being rescued? It's not that Kerrigan actually needed "rescuing" anyways - that was Raynor's delusion.

[ragnarok]

Didn't say it was. I said it had the potential for some unfortunate implications, that's all. Besides, who said anything about being rescued? It's not that Kerrigan actualled needed "rescuing" anyways - that was Raynor's delusion.

Actually she did, she just didn't understand it. Hell by the end of HotS I'm still not sure she understood that.

[drakolobo]

See here (http://giphy.com/gifs/the-office-no-steve-carell-12XMGIWtrHBl5e).



If that's true, then Kerrigan is nothing but a big peon herself. Either way, I feel that this is a big misconception about the Zerg that's been fostered since Kerrigan took control of them in BW - it's part of the thing I said previously that irked me about this ongoing direction of the Zerg.

In their initially conceived state, the Zerg are not controlled by a leader (ie: Overmind) because there is no leader in a collective hive-mind per se. The Overmind character is merely a simplification to describe the gestalt of all the drives of each individual Zerg - the instinct to survive, self-preserve, grow, expand at all costs but writ large as a whole. The concept being that the Zerg and the hivemind are so intertwined such that one part can't be wholly removed without the other part being wholly removed also - "the Overmind/the hivemind" and "the Zerg" should be considered synonymous.

I agree that Kerrigan was a peon to the end of WoL, after the destruction of the supermind something remained thaat she obeys, a thing that I'll call the "will of the Swarm" kerrigan although independent but was under the control of the Zerg guidelines:destroy, assimilate , evolve and supremacy zerg, its independence, but only made unique way to do it, it was we really zerg,focused on the zerg supremacy. in Heart of the Swarm something is broken, Abathur and zagara is reminding us that are the Zerg in the old school. in the end she was molding the Zerg around herself, transform, that since she has easy to kill, superficially made no big difference.

[ragnarok]

I agree that Kerrigan was a peon to the end of WoL, after the destruction of the supermind something remained thaat she obeys, I'll call the "will of the Swarm" kerrigan although independent but was under the control of the Zerg guidelines:destroy, assimilate and evolv, its independence, but only made unique way to do it, it was we really zerg,focused on the zerg supremacy. in Heart of the Swarm something is broken, Abathur and zagara is reminding us that are the Zerg in the old school. in the end she was molding the Zerg around herself, transform, that since she has easy to kill, superficially made no big difference.

That wasn't really too much different in HotS you know. Granted at least there she had another focus in dealing with Mengsk, but the fact still stands that at least hundreds of thousands were killed for her quest for revenge. Not to mention her actions in willing to sacrifice ANYTHING to get it left the terrans defenseless against Amon's assault, as seen in the LotV preview and everything.

For the whole molding the Zerg around herself, the main problem was her mentality was still the whole "might makes right" concept. Only on the Moros and meeting up with Raynor did she try to turn away from that.

[Turalyon]

I agree that Kerrigan was a peon to the end of WoL, after the destruction of the supermind something remained thaat she obeys, I'll call the "will of the Swarm" kerrigan although independent but was under the control of the Zerg guidelines:destroy, assimilate and evolv, its independence, but only made unique way to do it, it was we really zerg,focused on the zerg supremacy. in Heart of the Swarm something is broken, Abathur and zagara is reminding us that are the Zerg in the old school. in the end she was molding the Zerg around herself, transform, that since she has easy to kill, superficially made no big difference.

I would hesitate to say Kerrigan's actions in BW would be defined as the "will of the Swarm". She sure does a lot of destroying (and giving cruel mercy which the Overmind would never have done) but not much in the way of evolving or assimilating. Mind you, she wasn't ensuring Zerg supremacy for the sake of Zerg, it was purely for her own selfish desire for supremacy. She still keeps doing that in HotS, which was hardly a surprise.

[ragnarok]

I would hesitate to say Kerrigan's actions in BW would be defined as the "will of the Swarm". She sure does a lot of destroying (and giving cruel mercy which the Overmind would never have done) but not much in the way of evolving or assimilating. Mind you, she wasn't ensuring Zerg supremacy for the sake of Zerg, it was purely for her own selfish desire for supremacy. She still keeps doing that in HotS, which was hardly a surprise.

It has nothing to do with the will of the swarm in BW. Back then she was merely trying to rule over the WHOLE of the swarm. She was certainly telling the truth about the threat from the 2nd Overmind in that respect.

HotS was a little different. It wasn't about supremacy. Remember the original goal was to use the swarm, kill Mengsk, and walk away. Even in the last HotS mission, she admitted to Abathur it was all about retribution

[Turalyon]

HotS was a little different. It wasn't about supremacy. Remember the original goal was to use the swarm, kill Mengsk, and walk away. Even in the last HotS mission, she admitted to Abathur it was all about retribution

Nah, it's much of a muchness since in HotS, it's supremacy over Mengsk specifically rather than supremacy in general for BW. It's still Kerrigan seeking supremacy.

[ragnarok]

Nah, it's much of a muchness since in HotS, it's supremacy over Mengsk specifically rather than supremacy in general for BW. It's still Kerrigan seeking supremacy.

Fine if that's what you want to call it. The Q now is will she revert back to the original ways. Personally I don't think so, as she did not actively attack Zeratul's base in Whispers of Oblivion. Of course, from the outside view, this is hardly a change.

[Nissa]

Nah, it's much of a muchness since in HotS, it's supremacy over Mengsk specifically rather than supremacy in general for BW. It's still Kerrigan seeking supremacy.

I don't think "supremacy" is the right word. All she wanted was to take down Mengsk in HotS, even ignoring much more important, relevant threats to do so. She wanted the power to destroy him, and was maybe mildly interested in the stuff Zer was saying. Given that she was at one point ready to run off with Raynor, any quest for power was purely to have control over her personal situation.

[ragnarok]

I don't think "supremacy" is the right word. All she wanted was to take down Mengsk in HotS, even ignoring much more important, relevant threats to do so. She wanted the power to destroy him, and was maybe mildly interested in the stuff Zer was saying. Given that she was at one point ready to run off with Raynor, any quest for power was purely to have control over her personal situation.

The problem is what will she do now that she finally got her revenge. After all, she admitted many times in HotS that she'd have to face retribution. Every arrogant person has had to pay the price for their actions in the SC universe. She's so far the only exception to this rule.

I expect that to finally change in LotV. As already seen in the trailer, her confrontation with Artanis proved to be quite hostile.

[drakolobo]

old Kerrigan is not "will swarm" she serves this unconsciously, kerrigan keeps some independence and individualistic attitudes: as his hatred for Arcturus, piety with Raynor, and his desire not to be governed.
With the Overmind was pretty docile. with the death of the Overmind Zerg she did not deny his nature (she belonged to the superior species and lived agree to it bringing her mind for overall survival), this absence, only stimulated individualistic aspect, that incited be on top. but during Broodwar follows the patterns of behavior Zerg, seeks to evolve the swarm for domination, following the unattainable perfection.

old Kerrigan was the only one who really seemed to know what happened with Amon, when she retired with the Zerg during Broodwar was not mainly personal reasons (for her Kerrigan Arcturus is insignificant compared to the zerg destination), was forming an army to stop Amon, the top threat, while having a fatalistic attitude, she tried to get the Xel'naga device that we now know is the key to defeating the fallen. Her position it was survival Zerg no other creature.

New Kerrigan is more disconnected from the zerg, making evolve them to get as possible to Arcturus. if Amon had not appeared as a threat, possibly the swarm had left adrift after completing his revenge, what we saw was what a woman with a weapon and with a great hatred.
Kerrigan has developed empathy for the Zerg, but from a human perspective, not as a Zerg. along its transformation, their mentality has not been affected in comparison with old Kerrigan. now her go to fight like an anti-heroine into space to kill a galactic god who threatens all, knowing she had ruine everything with the only person she cares

[Turalyon]

I don't think "supremacy" is the right word.

...and yet...


All she wanted was to take down Mengsk

...a man that defines himself by trying to be better than everyone else, including Kerrigan such that...


She wanted the power to destroy him, and was maybe mildly interested in the stuff Zer was saying.

Sounds like she wanted supremacy over Mengsk if you ask me.

[ragnarok]

old Kerrigan is not "will swarm" she serves this unconsciously, kerrigan keeps some independence and individualistic attitudes: as his hatred for Arcturus, piety with Raynor, and his desire not to be governed.
With the Overmind was pretty docile. with the death of the Overmind Zerg she did not deny his nature (she belonged to the superior species and lived agree to it bringing her mind for overall survival), this absence, only stimulated individualistic aspect, that incited be on top. but during Broodwar follows the patterns of behavior Zerg, seeks to evolve the swarm for domination, following the unattainable perfection.

old Kerrigan was the only one who really seemed to know what happened with Amon, when she retired with the Zerg during Broodwar was not mainly personal reasons (for her Kerrigan Arcturus is insignificant compared to the zerg destination), was forming an army to stop Amon, the top threat, while having a fatalistic attitude, she tried to get the Xel'naga device that we now know is the key to defeating the fallen. Her position it was survival Zerg no other creature.

New Kerrigan is more disconnected from the zerg, making evolve them to get as possible to Arcturus. if Amon had not appeared as a threat, possibly the swarm had left adrift after completing his revenge, what we saw was what a woman with a weapon and with a great hatred.
Kerrigan has developed empathy for the Zerg, but from a human perspective, not as a Zerg. along its transformation, their mentality has not been affected in comparison with old Kerrigan. now her go to fight like an anti-heroine into space to kill a galactic god who threatens all, knowing she had ruine everything with the only person she cares

I hope you realize that's not how people are going to see it.

Remember, her arrogant mentality was shown in the LotV prologue. As far as she was concerned, everyone else was just too stupid to do anything. She thought only SHE knew what the right thing was.

I have a feeling that's going to end up backfiring on her severely in LotV.

As was already shown, the hybrids can corrupt and mind control Protoss (Maar did this to the Zhakul Guardians). They can do the same to the terrans, as shown in the LotV prologue when Zeratul commented that the Moebius terrans' minds have been consumed and they're now slaves to the hybrids. And as the 1st LotV mission had shown, if left in their feral state, the hybrids can do the exact same thing to the Zerg.

This is the problem she's going to have to answer at some point in LotV: since taking over the Zerg at the end of BW, has she EVER realized that there are limitations to the swarm, and to herself?

[Nissa]

Sounds like she wanted supremacy over Mengsk if you ask me.

Trouble is, you're letting "supremacy" be the key word, when really "Mengsk" is. If supremacy were really the point, it would have had more relevance. For example, she wouldn't have been willing to admit she wants someone to take her place if something happens to her. Anyone truly obsessed with supremacy would have made more decisions concerning the Zerg's general power and the power to make her own choices -- not letting Jimmy boy's ethics get in the way ("don't kill civilians"), or purely pursuing individual primal mutation while ignoring more relevant threats for the sake of a guy she really didn't need to be primal to beat.

[ragnarok]

Trouble is, you're letting "supremacy" be the key word, when really "Mengsk" is. If supremacy were really the point, it would have had more relevance. For example, she wouldn't have been willing to admit she wants someone to take her place if something happens to her. Anyone truly obsessed with supremacy would have made more decisions concerning the Zerg's general power and the power to make her own choices -- not letting Jimmy boy's ethics get in the way ("don't kill civilians"), or purely pursuing individual primal mutation while ignoring more relevant threats for the sake of a guy she really didn't need to be primal to beat.

Raynor's ethics rang that bell to Kerrigan because she understood if she chose otherwise, all she'd end up proving is in the end, she learned nothing after all these years. Granted she didn't learn too much anyway, but a little is still better than none at all.

And actually she did need to be primal to beat. After all, she wouldn't have succeeded with the Psi Destroyer without Dehaka's help

[Turalyon]

Trouble is, you're letting "supremacy" be the key word, when really "Mengsk" is.

Not really. That's why I said "supremacy over Mengsk" in the first place in regards to HotS. Afterall she's willing to kill Protoss and justify that under the umbrella goal of getting one over on Mengsk. That and she doesn't really need to kill Mengsk at all in order to go fight Amon.

[ragnarok]

Not really. That's why I said "supremacy over Mengsk" in the first place in regards to HotS. Afterall she's willing to kill Protoss and justify that under the umbrella goal of getting one over on Mengsk. That and she doesn't really need to kill Mengsk at all in order to go fight Amon.

Of course not, but revenge is personal. In many cases, such personal vendettas can lead to a LOT of people getting caught in the crossfire.

The main problem on Kaldir is because she found out Nafash's brood was killed, and then woke up the hive. If she hadn't done that, the Protoss wouldn't have noticed her, and none of this had to happen.