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Thread: Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

  1. #1

    Default Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

    TL: To follow that up, what types of challenges do you face when trying to balance the needs of the casual player versus the rage of hardcore players like in the progaming community. You had mentioned the macro mechanics being a big one.

    DB: Sure that's definitely a big one – it's a place where we feel we can definitely do better but it then does break other systems. You know a great example I love reading on Teamliquid and elsewhere were not so much that you guys were missing clicks – some people said that and I didn't agree with that – but that we were missing the difference between a macro player and a micro player. That we were destroying the sense of style of the player. I could be playing a micro game and you could be playing a macro game with both the same race, and we are still playing a very different game from one another. And when I saw that I was like “Ohh!” I was opening my eyes like “Thanks! THERE IT IS! That's great! That's genius! That's exactly what we need to try to accomplish”.
    -Dustin Browder



    n00bonicPlague:
    In SC1, all abilities that don't require a target can be cast through the minimap. I'm assuming that this use of the minimap as a target area designation interface still holds true for SC2. But I want to ask specifically: Does this hold true for Proton Charge?


    Yup, you will be able to use the mini-map to cast the ability.

    While this may make it easier in compared to the other 2 races, warping-in with the highest efficiency is much more difficult than having queued units of Terrans with reactors or Zerg with their many extra larvae and all units being built from hatcheries.

    They are different yet will be balanced
    -Karune

    http://forums.battle.net/thread.html...o=1&sid=3000#4



    Part 1
    ArcherofAiur:
    What happens to the minerals the MULE is holding when the MULEs timed life expires? Do they dissapear or does the player get them?
    Karune:
    Currently, the minerals the MULE is holding when it dies are lost unfortunately.


    ArcherofAiur:
    Can you drop the MULE directly on a mineral patch and it will automatically start harvesting?
    Karune:
    Yup.


    ArcherofAiur:
    Also, how effective are the Obelisk's Shield and Energy Recharge abilities?
    Karune:
    The Obelisk's shield regeneration is currently at a 1:1 ratio and the energy transfer ability is at a 2:1 ratio (Obelisk energy to unit casting energy). These ratios are of course subject to balance. Originally, the energy transfer ability was at a 1:1 and that proved to be much too easy to fire off consecutive Psi Storms on incoming enemies while defending and attacking.


    ArcherofAiur:
    Are the Shield and Energy Recharge abilities useful enough of the time to compete with Proton Charge?
    There is allot of concern that they may not be as good an alternative as say comsat is to MULE.
    Karune:
    In my opinion, both recharge abilities are very useful, but often times it is better to build a second Obelisk when you can afford it to then use those abilities. If you are 100% efficient with probe buff, your first Obelisk should never have extra energy for the use of other abilities.

    http://forums.battle.net/thread.html...o=1&sid=3000#5

    Karune:
    Calling down the MULE is much more effective in terms of collecting additional resources (each will gain more than +100 during it's duration) but if those supplies keep you at cap by mistake, the supply depot call down can quickly get you back on track for your build order/timed push.


    ArcherofAiur:
    So will pros with set BO always just use MULE?
    Do you know how much exactly does the MULE gather in its lifetime?
    Does the Orbital Command have a cooldown like Gearvosh says? Do the queen and Obelisk?
    Karune:
    The amount that the MULE gathers is subject to balance, but it will be more than the cost of a supply depot by a generous amount.

    The Orbital Command, Queen, and Obelisk do not have cooldowns. This means 'yes' you can drop down several MULEs all at the same time. The abilities for the Queen and Obelisk will not be as forgiving if you forget to use the abilities, as you can only queue one set of larva at a time per hatchery, and probes with additional probe buffs will not stack, but it will reset its duration.

    http://forums.battle.net/thread.html...22&sid=3000#26






    Part 2
    From Gifted recent Dev "Friend"

    ArcherofAiur:
    "Can you ask him what he thinks of the obelisk? Does it bother the dev team that certain obelisks are used only for casting PC and others for only shield and energy recharge? Does it bother the dev team that PC requires your to target a mienral field when there is only one mineral field you would want to target?"

    Jack Doe:
    "hahahaha, a lot of things bug the dev team! I'm a strong believer that the obelisk looks bad on paper, but works in experience. Whether you believe it or not, it's been a constant conversation in meetings between peers off and on. A lot like salvage. Both of those have the potential to show unbalance in so many ways, but we can't see it in the games. We're really looking forward to a larger pool of data from the beta test. I know I didn't answer his f*****ng question right, ask him to elaborate on the last part."


    ArcherofAiur:
    "A big complaint from the fanbase here at SCLegacy is that a obelisk that just casts Proton Charge doesnt require any decision making. For instance there is alot of decision making that goes into when to make a worker. Likewise their is allot of decision making that goes into deciding where you cast psi storm.

    Proton Charge requires no decision making for when you cast it since you have to cast it every X seconds for every "Proton Charge" Obelisk.

    Proton Charge also requires no decision making for where you cast it since there is only one mineral field near the obelisk. If I always want to cast it in the same place why is the game asking me to choose a location?

    We were wondering if the dev team shares any of these concerns. I cant tell you how many threads weve had on this subject and if he could give us the developers thoughts it would be greatly appreciated ."

    Jack Doe:
    "This is all my opinion and not the "public" opinion. It "feels" like the mule or the queen's abilities. You go to a "unit" select an ability and select a target. You may feel it's obvious to put it over the probes, but the mule and queen have obvious targets as well. On paper it can be a lot more "ezmode", but in gameplay it feels the same in use.

    About "when", that's one of the fears I have about imbalance. In one way of testing it, it feels as spammable as zerg queens, make more and you get more use out of the abilities. On another point of testing, it feels like the decision of making too many gateways without building enough units from the gateways. You can see repercussions in late game when you wish you had those extra minerals.

    In some cases, it feels like you built too many expensive shield batteries, if you get what I mean. For that, I think that the decision of "when" you create it can be viewed differently on the different scopes of the game.

    Direct quote he wanted to say: "We can't wait for beta, we want people to butcher the mechanics and show us how good they truly are. I can personally say that they all "feel" good right now. I hope that's reassuring""






    Part 3
    Slashdot: There has been some talk that the streamlining of commands has been moving the focus away from actions per minute [APM]. How important is APM as a metric for you and will we see a decline in the importance of this metric?
    Dustin Browder: That type of feedback is incredibly important for us. We want players making smart decisions all the time and we want a lot of skill required to play this game at the highest levels. We absolutely want the best players to be the best players. We're not looking to even out or flatten the skill curve so that "everybody can be a winner." This is not the first grade. We want this to be tennis, baseball, football, whatever, we want this to be a game that requires real skill. But at the same time we don't want this to be a bunch of bogus skill. We have definitely gotten rid of some clicks, but we have also added some clicks back in. We got rid of some clicks in terms of how you had to select your buildings and how you had to give build commands, but we also made sure that we had the finest amount of control at the same time.

    When we originally put it out there we said you could double-click the barracks and hit 'M,' and you get five marines, one from each barracks for instance. The fans were outraged and we kind of ignored them, saying, "Whatever, this is a better gameplay experience," but as we played it, we realized that it wasn't a better gameplay experience. Maybe when you hit 'M,' what you really wanted was three marines and two marauders, and you couldn't do that. Instead we have said you can select all of your barracks at once, but each click sends a build command individually to each of those barracks. So now you are able to hit "M, M, M, D, D." This gave us a decent amount of clicks, but actually the correct amount of control. That's actually the control you wanted as a player. We weren't looking to hurt you by giving you too many clicks or hold your hand by taking away some of the gameplay experience. We were actually giving you the controls that made you powerful by having the correct balance between the two.

    Also we have a bunch of macro mechanics in the game to encourage players to control their economy better, because as you know in Starcraft, economy is king. One of the things that we loved about the original Starcraft was not so much that we want you to click a bunch, but that there was a lot of tension between players who were micro-oriented and players who were economy-oriented. For instance, if you are playing Zerg and are micro-oriented and I'm playing Zerg and I'm economy-oriented, we're kind of playing two different races — not exactly, but a little bit. We're having a very different experience, and that style difference now becomes the interesting problem for both of us, and that is what we're really pursuing with a lot of this stuff. So, we've definitely taken some clicks away, but we have added some back, and I think the fans will be fine with it. Certainly the hardcore fans I've spoken with, who have actually had a chance to play the game, seem to be very positive about the experience.
    Last edited by ArcherofAiur; 12-04-2009 at 11:28 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Proton Charge sound dreadfully boring, yet for some reason I'm ok w/ the other mechanics.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Blazur View Post
    Proton Charge sound dreadfully boring, yet for some reason I'm ok w/ the other mechanics.

    I think its missing flair.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur View Post
    I think its missing flair.
    I think its missing common sense. Like, how exponential mechanics > additive ones.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    I think its missing common sense. Like, how exponential mechanics > additive ones.
    Didnt we already establish that it gives about the same as a MULE.

    Like really man. Do you think Blizzards been playing with it this entire time and never realized its as (scary voice) EXPONENTIALLLY POWERFUL as you say?
    Last edited by ArcherofAiur; 07-13-2009 at 09:17 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur View Post
    I think its missing flair.
    Any idea it make it more fun? I guess there's some tension in using it, but it still sounds like a monotonous task which is compulsory. What can we suggest which might make it sound more exciting to use?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur View Post
    Didnt we already establish that it gives about the same as a MULE.

    Like really man. Do you think Blizzards been playing with it this entire time and never realized its as (scary voice) EXPONENTIALLLY POWERFUL as you say?
    I believe its possible. Because only two members of their team ever played competitively.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur View Post
    Didnt we already establish that it gives about the same as a MULE.

    Like really man. Do you think Blizzards been playing with it this entire time and never realized its as (scary voice) EXPONENTIALLLY POWERFUL as you say?
    Not only that, but an average base will have 15-20 probes on minerals, thats about the same as a mule (which gathers 15).

    I usually dont get into this discussion (because its something I feel should be left for the beta) but I had to say it.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny View Post
    Not only that, but an average base will have 15-20 probes on minerals, thats about the same as a mule (which gathers 15).

    I usually dont get into this discussion (because its something I feel should be left for the beta) but I had to say it.
    15-20? Do you actually play SC? I've never seen a game with less than 30 workers.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    15-20? Do you actually play SC? I've never seen a game with less than 30 workers.
    Maybe if Im playing BGH. If 1 base has 8-9 mineral fields, I dont see why you need more than 20 probes ON MINERALS. In total though, when you add the workers and gas probes, it comes out to 25-30. Its way more for terran and zerg.

    You also need to consider not all of them gather at the same time, unlike the mule which bypasses the scv.

    And if the mechanic is imbalenced, they can simply strengthen the other abilities, or say, slighly lower the gather speed during charge. Something like that.
    Last edited by Crazy_Jonny; 07-13-2009 at 09:26 PM.

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