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Thread: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

  1. #11

    Default Re: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalarsco View Post
    Yet another person who confuses "mistakes" with "plot decisions I didn't like".
    Well said.
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  2. #12

    Default Re: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalarsco View Post
    Yet another person who confuses "mistakes" with "plot decisions I didn't like".
    It's not a question of "mistakes", just bad, poorly thought out writing.

    You are of course welcome to explain why one's outlook on most of the writing decisions in SC 2 would qualify as a matter of taste rather than quality.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

    Quote Originally Posted by Eligor View Post
    It's not a question of "mistakes", just bad, poorly thought out writing.

    You are of course welcome to explain why one's outlook on most of the writing decisions in SC 2 would qualify as a matter of taste rather than quality.
    ^This

  4. #14

    Default Re: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

    for me the Overmind was not displeased with absorbing the protoss, the zerg purpose is the perfection, but the problem is that inevitably this would lead to exticion zerg. the Overmind could tolerate this

    perhaps it was simply a subtle manipulation of the dark voice impetus to the zerg to attack xelnaga to know protoss the nature of the Overmind inevitably led him to become obsessed with them, even when culminating in the exticion of all life, as opposed to the idea of the perfect race, that Overmind want
    Last edited by drakolobo; 08-23-2010 at 05:18 PM.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius
    These things were prevalent in the Dark Templar saga, not other SC games. Sure, Protoss characters exhibited these qualities sometimes, but it's not remotely "central" to the Protoss IMO.
    To me it certainly is. Main events of SC and BW can be purely blamed for those Protoss qualities. Everyone except Tassadar show these qualities in many missions (Tassadar only shows this in the mission where he's captured by the Conclave). Zeratul might be all cool with teaching Tassadar about the Void, but when he's confronted with the Conclave he's tippy toes and humble like hell. Aldaris is also much more preoccupied with the issues of the past, than with the whole Zerg problem. The Conclave keeps underestimating the Zerg, because they always consider the Protoss race to be the most dangerous one. And I think the OP from the SC2 forum really nailed that point.

    Quote Originally Posted by drakolobo View Post
    for me the Overmind was not displeased with absorbing the protoss, the zerg purpose is the perfection, but the problem is that inevitably this would lead to exticion zerg. the Overmind could tolerate this

    perhaps it was simply a subtle manipulation of the dark voice impetus to the zerg to attack xelnaga to know protoss the nature of the Overmind inevitably led him to become obsessed with them, even when culminating in the exticion of all life, as opposed to the idea of the perfect race, that Overmind want
    Sorry but if the Overmind wanted total perfection, then I believe it would WELCOME a Xel'Naga (not Hybrid) rebirth when the Protoss would be assimilated and the Zerg would evolve into the new Xel'Naga.

    Point is... I still don't see how that "planted directive" ruined the Overmind's plan. The only difference between the creation of a next generation of Xel'Naga and the Hybrids, is that the Zerg were not guided by the Xel'Naga fully. How that difference comes into play when "assimilating" the Protoss, I don't understand.
    If the Overmind had been more evolved, had the Protoss welcomed the assimilation?
    Last edited by BusinessMonkey; 08-24-2010 at 01:00 AM.
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  6. #16

    Default Re: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

    Quote Originally Posted by Eligor View Post
    It's not a question of "mistakes", just bad, poorly thought out writing.

    You are of course welcome to explain why one's outlook on most of the writing decisions in SC 2 would qualify as a matter of taste rather than quality.
    Damn near everything is opinion. It is incredibly arrogant to believe that everything you don't like must be of poor quality, but I'll try to explain some common complaints from a different viewpoint.

    1. The Overmind change. People think it damaged the character to be someone's pawn. Personally, I think it's sort of neat that the Overmind was being twisted by some greater force, but still found a way to beat them with a crazy round-about plan. But I was never a big Overmind fan. I can see why some fans of the character might not be happy with it, but it's not objectively bad.

    2. Kerrigan's purification. First off, it wasn't confirmed that Kerrigan is reformed. She might be incredibly pissed with Raynor for having taken away her Zerginess. But even if it is, I like it. I like the idea of the character having to deal with what she did as head of the Zerg, when her rage was in control. She wasn't fully herself, but everything she did she knows she wanted to do in some dark place. If you don't want that kind of story then that's fine, but I do.

    3. The Prophesy. The complaint about this is always that it's too fantasy for a sci-fi world. Pure BS. Have you ever read Dune? Dune is one of the greatest sci-fi novels of all time and it's all about prophesy. And what about Star Wars? Fantasy and sci-fi have this whole retro Reese's ad thing where touches from one make the other better. If you don't like this then I'll sigh and ignore your opinions about fiction, but neither one of us is objectively right. It's just our tastes.

    Anything else you want explained by someone who bothers to look at other viewpoints?

  7. #17

    Default Re: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

    Quote Originally Posted by BusinessMonkey View Post
    To me it certainly is. Main events of SC and BW can be purely blamed for those Protoss qualities. Everyone except Tassadar show these qualities in many missions (Tassadar only shows this in the mission where he's captured by the Conclave). Zeratul might be all cool with teaching Tassadar about the Void, but when he's confronted with the Conclave he's tippy toes and humble like hell. Aldaris is also much more preoccupied with the issues of the past, than with the whole Zerg problem. The Conclave keeps underestimating the Zerg, because they always consider the Protoss race to be the most dangerous one. And I think the OP from the SC2 forum really nailed that point.
    I always took it as the Protoss being arrogant, stubborn and set in their ways; as in it would take a lot to change their mind once it has been made up. That is why they seem so headstrong and brash in their decision-making; because they are genuinely convinced that they are right. However, once convinced otherwise, they will strongly defend their new view (e.g. Tassadar's adoption of the Void) and be genuinely apologetic for their past mistakes (e.g Aldaris' rather 'cowed' behaviour around Zeratul once he realised the Conclave's error).

  8. #18

    Default Re: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalarsco View Post
    3. The Prophesy. The complaint about this is always that it's too fantasy for a sci-fi world. Pure BS. Have you ever read Dune? Dune is one of the greatest sci-fi novels of all time and it's all about prophesy. And what about Star Wars? Fantasy and sci-fi have this whole retro Reese's ad thing where touches from one make the other better. If you don't like this then I'll sigh and ignore your opinions about fiction, but neither one of us is objectively right. It's just our tastes.
    As you're pointing out yourself, Dune was fully about Prophecy, Star Wars "retconned" episodes 4-6 though with introducing the prophecy of "The Chosen One", which puts focus on Vader, a focus that ultimately ends up neglecting the role of Luke and the Alliance and says: By throwing the Emperor into a chute, he's the GREATEST JEDI THAT EVER WAS... Jeez Louise...
    And ultimately, you use these arguments to go against the complaint you say is the most common one, yet the thread made by the OP in the SC2 forums isn't about Prophecies in SCI-FI, it's about how retconning through a prophecy, that never was to begin with, ruins the overall story arch.
    Following that argument, I stil say the OP has a very valid point in all this. Your counterarguments don't do anything to that.

    Your first and second point, are much more subjective opinions though, I give you that. Even though making the Leader of the Zerg, be nothing but a massive programmed AI, does sound a bit lame. By making the Xel'Naga and The Dark Voice so potent, I better hope Blizz lives up to that "hugeness".
    But I guess it's going to be like Sargeras in WC. We'll never see those gargantuan entities in the games. SC3 anyone?
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  9. #19
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    Default Re: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

    Quote Originally Posted by BusinessMonkey View Post
    To me it certainly is. Main events of SC and BW can be purely blamed for those Protoss qualities. Everyone except Tassadar show these qualities in many missions (Tassadar only shows this in the mission where he's captured by the Conclave). Zeratul might be all cool with teaching Tassadar about the Void, but when he's confronted with the Conclave he's tippy toes and humble like hell. Aldaris is also much more preoccupied with the issues of the past, than with the whole Zerg problem. The Conclave keeps underestimating the Zerg, because they always consider the Protoss race to be the most dangerous one. And I think the OP from the SC2 forum really nailed that point.
    Then that has to do with the Protoss' resistance to change, and therefore fanaticism, like peasant said. Those aren't examples of "barely contained rage" or "deep regret/shame". Those things just seem like fancy phrases from the DT Saga that the OP was throwing around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalarsco View Post
    Damn near everything is opinion. It is incredibly arrogant to believe that everything you don't like must be of poor quality, but I'll try to explain some common complaints from a different viewpoint.
    Retcons are not subjective. And I definitely don't agree that everything is opinion. If you can't point out the value of something, then it sucks. Fenix for example - the reason he isn't mentioned at all in the SC Story recaps is because he's totally irrelevant; he could have not existed and it would have zero effect on the plot. Many fans, including me, liked him, but he's a superfluous character - this is not subjective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalarsco View Post
    1. The Overmind change. People think it damaged the character to be someone's pawn. Personally, I think it's sort of neat that the Overmind was being twisted by some greater force, but still found a way to beat them with a crazy round-about plan. But I was never a big Overmind fan. I can see why some fans of the character might not be happy with it, but it's not objectively bad.
    You don't mind the fact that Blizzard basically shafted the original game because they failed to work with the lore that they already have?

    The Prophesy. The complaint about this is always that it's too fantasy for a sci-fi world.
    The complaint was that it's poorly written. The guy elaborates on this: there was zero prophecy in SC, and that's because it wouldn't make any sense that the coming of the Zerg was foretold. Who foretold the coming exactly, and if it was foretold why was everyone so surprised? It just seems like a bunch of nonsense.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

    I didn't read beyond the first couple paragraphs on the Overmind, because I think this guy is seriously misinformed . I believe that the Dark Voice put that 'directive' into the Overmind in order to destroy the Xel'Naga, not that the Xel'Naga were the ones enslaving the overmind .
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