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Thread: Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

  1. #1

    Default Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

    I've been doing some thinking about the Obelisk, comparing it to the Orbital Command.
    In this thinking I have found what the OC has in surplus and the Obelisk lacks heavily:
    -- the ability to save you time and resources
    -- a virtually limitless level of mobility

    MULE Drop saves time and resources you would've spent on building SCVs. Call Down Extra Supplies saves time and resources you would've spent on building Supply Depots. Scanner Sweep saves time and resources you would've spent on building Turrets, Sensor Towers, and Ravens. This creates true competition between all of the abilities that the OC has. Also, the OC can cast all of its abilities anywhere on the map, making them useful no matter what the situation.

    The Obelisk, however, has only one ability that can save you significant time and resources: Proton Charge. The other two abilities -- Shield Regeneration and Energy Regeneration -- can save you some time and maybe some resources, but the Obelisk's lack of mobility and its limited casting range prevents those two abilities from being readily available, thus causing them to be rarely used, which then leads to poor competition between the abilities. Ultimately, the only ability that is frequently used is Proton Charge.

    To solve this problem, there are two major things that need to be done. First, we need at least one more ability that can save a significant amount of time and resources, and thus provide enough weight to balance against Proton Charge. Second, we need to give these abilities mobility, but without directly copying the OC's unlimited range. There are many ways that this can be achieved, but I suggest the following.

    First, make the Nexus and Obelisk share a communal energy bank, where each Obelisk increases the storage size of the bank and each Nexus increases the recharge rate of the bank. Next, create an ability called Psionic Flux, which permanently increases a target pylon's psi supply and radius of psionic influence, but only once per pylon. This ability will save time and resources that would've been spent on constructing additional pylons. Then, give Proton Charge and Psionic Flux to the Nexus, while leaving Shield Regen. and Energy Regen. with the Obelisk. Finally, the Obelisk should not provide psi supply, but it should provide a small radius of pylon power which allows it to act as a warp-in point for Warp Gates.

    The suggestions in the above paragraph should solve the Obelisk's problems and provide a well integrated macro system for the Protoss. Naturally, all numbers are subject to balance.



    Anyway, wadda yous guys think?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

    The other two abilities -- Shield Regeneration and Energy Regeneration -- can save you some time and maybe some resources, but the Obelisk's lack of mobility and its limited casting range prevents those two abilities from being readily available, thus causing them to be rarely used, which then leads to poor competition between the abilities.
    Total fail on your analysis. What leads to poor competition between these abilities is the fact that it is cheap. You have have lots of them.

    OCCs require a command center, so you can't exactly spam them. You are therefore bound to the energy recharge rate of 2-3 of them at most. Obelisks are fairly cheap. If you have a position you want to hold, you can easily throw one or two down and use its abilities to help you hold it. This is in addition to the ones in your base that are throwing down Proton Charge.

    There's no contention because each Obelisk is separate.

    Anyway, wadda yous guys think?
    It's a patch. It's taking a mechanic that doesn't work and putting in arbitrary rules to make it work.

    It would be better to tear the mechanic down and start over from scratch.
    "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C. S. Lewis

    "You simply cannot design a mechanic today to mimic the behaviour of a 10-year old mechanic that you removed because nearly nobody would like them today." - Norfindel, on the Macro Mechanics

    "We want to focus the player on making interesting choices and not just a bunch of different klicks." - Dustin Browder

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

    I'd like to add more, but I think Nicol's already covered all the bases.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

    Quote Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague View Post
    I've been doing some thinking about the Obelisk, comparing it to the Orbital Command.
    In this thinking I have found what the OC has in surplus and the Obelisk lacks heavily:
    -- the ability to save you time and resources
    -- a virtually limitless level of mobility

    MULE Drop saves time and resources you would've spent on building SCVs. Call Down Extra Supplies saves time and resources you would've spent on building Supply Depots. Scanner Sweep saves time and resources you would've spent on building Turrets, Sensor Towers, and Ravens. This creates true competition between all of the abilities that the OC has. Also, the OC can cast all of its abilities anywhere on the map, making them useful no matter what the situation.

    The Obelisk, however, has only one ability that can save you significant time and resources: Proton Charge. The other two abilities -- Shield Regeneration and Energy Regeneration -- can save you some time and maybe some resources, but the Obelisk's lack of mobility and its limited casting range prevents those two abilities from being readily available, thus causing them to be rarely used, which then leads to poor competition between the abilities. Ultimately, the only ability that is frequently used is Proton Charge.

    To solve this problem, there are two major things that need to be done. First, we need at least one more ability that can save a significant amount of time and resources, and thus provide enough weight to balance against Proton Charge. Second, we need to give these abilities mobility, but without directly copying the OC's unlimited range. There are many ways that this can be achieved, but I suggest the following.
    Wow you have a great understanding of the situation. I think your approach might actually work. One question, how does this idea of saved resources relate to the queen? I wouldnt do the upgrade pylon idea simply because call-down supplies and (i think) overseer already increase supply.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas View Post
    Total fail on your analysis. What leads to poor competition between these abilities is the fact that it is cheap. You have have lots of them.
    Queen only costs 150 minerals and it still has good competition between abilities.
    Last edited by ArcherofAiur; 06-20-2009 at 10:54 AM.

  5. #5
    Pandonetho's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

    Don't Queen's cost food?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

    In BR3 we saw the zerg player get 4 or 5. In comparison the protoss player had 1 or 2 at each of his bases. But you never see threads worried about spamming queens.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

    Because Queens are units that cost food.

    And they're capped by your number of hatcheries... and they don't technically have abilities that give you minerals.


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  8. #8

    Default Re: Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
    Because Queens are units that cost food.

    And they're capped by your number of hatcheries... and they don't technically have abilities that give you minerals.
    All true points. None the less you still see queens being spammed more than Obelisks. I think we might be overreacting here.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur View Post
    All true points. None the less you still see queens being spammed more than Obelisks. I think we might be overreacting here.
    We only have one video of multiple Queens, and there were multiple because Lee kept losing his in attacks, and they're the earliest GtA. If you aren't good enough to keep them alive I fully expect you to have multiples because the only way you can compete is with that constant stream of larva. DK only built two Obelisks because, as I have said DOZENS of times, that's likely the number needed to maintain a steady Proton Charge because the ability is nothing but a fucking APM sink.
    Last edited by DemolitionSquid; 06-20-2009 at 12:14 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

    DK only built two Obelisks because, as I have said DOZENS of times, that's likely the number needed to maintain a steady Proton Charge because the ability is nothing but a fucking APM sink.
    The video provides direct physical evidence that 2 is not enough to keep Proton Charge up 100% of the time. Remember the Banelings that killed a bunch of Probes in the main? They didn't have Proton Charge up for the duration of that attack.

    That's not to say that PC isn't an APM sink, however. Only that 2 Obelisks isn't enough to keep PC up permanently.
    "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C. S. Lewis

    "You simply cannot design a mechanic today to mimic the behaviour of a 10-year old mechanic that you removed because nearly nobody would like them today." - Norfindel, on the Macro Mechanics

    "We want to focus the player on making interesting choices and not just a bunch of different klicks." - Dustin Browder

    StarCraft 2 Beta Blog

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