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Thread: The 2v2 Thread

  1. #1

    Default The 2v2 Thread

    Alright, so, I've been nursing my wounds (being insulted by the incessant focus the entire gaming community has on 1v1), and I am ready to pioneer 2v2 in SC2.

    Here's the thing: To learn 2v2 in SC1, you NEED a friend at or above the A- level to teach you builds, timings, strategies, etc. 2v2 is an entirely different animal than 1v1, and even if you analyze the old professional 2v2 replays, it will do you little or no good. 2v2 has progressed for years at the higher level...without any 'publicized' strategies or guides developed.

    I don't think that this sort of elitism and secrecy should also develop in SC2. On ICCUP, the same top 8 players are top 8 every single season.

    I came back to SC:L after 5 years and back to SC after 3 years a few months ago; I found some old friends who had progressed to the A- level and boy did they have a few things to teach me.

    Granted, I probably never would have integrated myself into modern 2v2 if I didn't have friends who knew exactly what they were talking about to explain to me everything.

    Now, as a pioneer concept, I want to hear everyone's ideas on how 2v2 should operate in SC2 - I have a record of 137-22 in 2v2 overall, partnering some players who are 1900+ in random 2v2 and #1 in multiple arranged divisions.

    Tell me about strong 2v2 players and strategies you have encountered: one of the goals of this thread is to seek players who might qualify for one of the FIRST EVER 2v2 cash-money tournament invitationals!

    I came back to SC:L with the intention to make 2v2 big...and hopefully with your help, we can do that!

    Feel free to post replays, links to other discussion threads, builds, comments, philosophies on the macro, micro, or metagame!
    Call me PK`

  2. #2

    Default Re: The 2v2 Thread

    :[ Nobody cares!
    Call me PK`

  3. #3

    Default Re: The 2v2 Thread

    i do. this looks promising

    2v2's in sc2 seem like a lot of fun, but there's much in it to consider; potentially more stuff than in 1v1's .... at this point, im rarely concerned with anything but when to expect / prepare a rush and when to try to stay safer & tech to something.

    as o now, im letting the maps decide entierly: if there seems to be a shared chokepoint and / or long distances, we might try to tech up a bit.


    ... going beyond that, it takes time to get a true grasp of any sort of 2v2 metagame; in 1v1 im able to do so already; i have a sense of what my oponent is doing in 1v1, a feeling of when it may or may not be OK to attack. in 2v2, its much more unclear; i have to consider the positions of two opponents, often even 2 races. plus i need to have a grasp on my allys position. it gets hard to know when to do what. at least in those situations where you make that initial decision to "not engage at this time" ... then its so easy to just get so focused on keeping a rational gameplan for yourself, that it becomes hard to keep on interacting with the enemy in a rational way.

    ... in my experience, the best games come from hardcore rush vs rush, that are close, and evolves into something else - in situations where you DO have a sense of where you stand from those first confrontations, and base decisions around this + keep on interaction regularly without big one-sided decisive battles.


    best of luck with this PK. really.
    I am an enthusiast of good strategy games, sc2Esports and rollplay, although i dont really play anything atm.
    I work an internship at a government agency this fall, and have a good time at it.
    I'm being more social, active and honest lately. in all forums.

    Hi.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The 2v2 Thread

    Heh Its not that I don't care but it seems to me 2v2 strats are very limited to just openings.


    I've played mostly 2v2 in the beta and the way me and my partner play is simple. (both random)


    We open up with safe builds ( unless we spawn terran in which case reaper rush)

    Our goal to to secure our natural expo, and get 2 bases going while staying alive and making the necessary units based on what we scout. And ending the game if we ever feel like we have a advantage.

    I mean i've seen cute attack plans by people but I think a good solid 2v2 strat is so flexable that its hard to really discuss =/

    2v2 Is also really unforgiving, its really really hard to make a come back victory ( it caaan happen but not often) So I feel like, your forced into a build that is both safe, and somewhat passive.

    And then theres the horribly broken feed builds, its not cool to have 20 mutas at the same timing as 6 would normally show up T_T But I don't do those builds so not much to say about them.

    I love 2v2 to death, but I don't really have much feedback on solid builds heh


    Though one thing I would like to discuss is how do you guys feel about the current 2v2 map pool?
    "No matter what side of the argument you are on, you always find people on your side that you wish were on the other."
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  5. #5

    Default Re: The 2v2 Thread

    As others I don't know much about specialized tactics for 2v2 and I would like to support Island's idea of safe builds. On the other hand, we have the 2 players who literaly play as one. Different mechanics in SC2 make this possible: shared control and resource sharing.

    During the first weeks of beta, I followed the staff closely in the legacy observer and in replays. LoA, Gifted and Crota played an abundant amount of 2v2 games in which they regularly shared control of their units, but it was not untill this video a couple of days ago that I actually reflected on what could be done with the share units mechanic:



    The last video works with 3 partners but it might still be pretty useful to let your teammate tech/macro up while you harrass.

    Another advantage of shared unit control is that a single player can micro out the spellcasters of both races and prevent casual catastrofies of casting storms on your ally or any kind of friendly fire.

    Regarding the map pool...

    I feel it is complete enough to show different kind of games. Twilight fortress allows some fast teching and macro, while decena might show early rushes. I just feel we might need an island map; but as soon as custom maps are available for the public, we will get a larger variety of maps.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The 2v2 Thread

    I dont get to play 2v2 all that much, but i have had a few chances to experiment with it. I 1v1 as protoss cuz thats what I am best at, but in 2v2 I have been experimenting with zerg with my friend who is protoss. After many hours of teaching him the timing and what to look for with scouting with the same six zealot double gate rush that i saw PK and Gifted using on PK's first day back, I started to mix in the 'arkhswarm' as it is now being called. It is the +1 speedling double hatch build that Gifted has been using.

    And while the timings are not exactly the same, the results are devastating. It usually ends up I swarm the lings around the little bit of units the enemy has, and he sends his zealots to attack the workers unhindered. If either of the opponents are terran then i do a quick tech switch to banelings while my teammate starts getting stalkers and/or sentries cuz of the guardian shield and some anti air. Usually the terran does not last long after I do the baneling bust but then again I have been playing against not so good opponents cuz I suck as zerg and at 2v2. But this is just an idea that I had that works pretty well.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: The 2v2 Thread

    meh. that tri-7-pool doesnt look more broken than any cheese.

    huskey and his friends beating n00bs 15 times doesnt mean anything. i love it how he doesnt even mention the possibility of countering that with strong roach and/ or banelings play, or at least to follow the rush up with baneligs to nail any persistant turtling defenders!

    you ar right though: as i mentioned in the 3v3 thread, shared unit control has tremendous potential in this game...
    I am an enthusiast of good strategy games, sc2Esports and rollplay, although i dont really play anything atm.
    I work an internship at a government agency this fall, and have a good time at it.
    I'm being more social, active and honest lately. in all forums.

    Hi.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The 2v2 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Blade View Post
    As others I don't know much about specialized tactics for 2v2 and I would like to support Island's idea of safe builds. On the other hand, we have the 2 players who literaly play as one. Different mechanics in SC2 make this possible: shared control and resource sharing.

    During the first weeks of beta, I followed the staff closely in the legacy observer and in replays. LoA, Gifted and Crota played an abundant amount of 2v2 games in which they regularly shared control of their units, but it was not untill this video a couple of days ago that I actually reflected on what could be done with the share units mechanic:



    The last video works with 3 partners but it might still be pretty useful to let your teammate tech/macro up while you harrass.

    Another advantage of shared unit control is that a single player can micro out the spellcasters of both races and prevent casual catastrofies of casting storms on your ally or any kind of friendly fire.

    Regarding the map pool...

    I feel it is complete enough to show different kind of games. Twilight fortress allows some fast teching and macro, while decena might show early rushes. I just feel we might need an island map; but as soon as custom maps are available for the public, we will get a larger variety of maps.
    3 good terrans could destroy them easy. reaper rush + choke blocks + fast tech to hellions = gg.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The 2v2 Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    3 good terrans could destroy them easy. reaper rush + choke blocks + fast tech to hellions = gg.
    That may be! But the thing is that it's a frickin 7-pool .

    It seems a bit unfair for your team to have to send a super-early SCV scout, or be forced to play with the assumption that the Zergs are all going to rush. Either way, your team could potentially have their economy hampered just because the other team all spawned as Zerg. :S

    I haven't played on that 3-player map though, but unless you immediately begin the game with a plan to handle a rush, even sending one of your starting SCVs might be too late to react to seeing a 7 pool. But if you don't scout at all and instinctively prepare for a rush, then you'll be behind if the Zerg players just decided to power economy.

    But yeah, it's a 3v3 and in my opinion, not a super-competitive format, so I'm not too bothered .

  10. #10

    Default Re: The 2v2 Thread

    I think a lot of these objections are realistic, but at the same time, not:

    The fact of the matter is, whether it's 3v3 or 4v4, an arranged-team of either full of good, serious players will result in an exciting, competent game.

    I think WC3 is a good example of this - I've mentioned earlier the idea of Z/Z/P, which would be roach/roach to 50 supply + feed toss to voidrays (Frost wyrm much?).

    Other sorts of resource oriented strategies could develop - straight feed? Roaches are SO damn similar to huntresses, if you think about it. A common 2v2 strategy would be straight feeding the NE for mass huntresses. Similarly, you can mass roaches with a feeding partner.

    Shared control operates the same way in SC2 as it does in WC3 - many of you have noted the potential of controlling all the same types of units. But it also means that players who lose their base are still useful in a team game. While the benefit is marginal, the other player can hypothetically spend all their time macroing...

    I will brainstorm some more 2v2 strategies...but I feel some of the more powerful ones are:

    P/P -> 2gate zeal pressure. This seems very, very elementary but it's effective against any team that isn't T/T.

    I will develop the metagame of this more and explain, but basically, hitting the Z with 12 zealots (6 each) is a solid timing attack against a transition to roaches and/or FE drone saturation. If they have a toss, you can obviously overrun them.

    I mean yes, there are counters to this build, but it's extremely effective, given that there are counters to every build, and this one has mid/late game options than most.

    Otherwise, I think Z/T is the strongest combo. A low-econ Z who masses lings as the T gets strong, denying and pressuring expansions, will carry the game. T should optimally double-expo (if he's not confident that he can take out both players mid-game).
    Call me PK`

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