Void Rays Discussion -- Air to Ground Attack Only

[//MavericK\\]

I think a fundamental problem with the void ray as a unit is that it can attack both air and ground targets, with virtually no penalties to its charge up system when switching from a ground target to an air target and vice versa. Unless the target can run far enough away quickly enough, which is made even more difficult when the void ray has its speed upgrade.

I believe this is why we are seeing so much VR massing. Even a well balanced, mixed force has a hard time countering a ball of these things.

I will admit that I am bias a bit, as I am a Terran player, but my next race after them is Protoss, so I want Protoss to be as well balanced a race as possible. What I fear is happening is that the VRs are fast becoming the Carriers of SCI. Mass up 10 or 12 and stomp your opponent. I don't like one-dimensional armies nor do I like facing them. It gets boring.

In an earlier thread, I proposed a solution to this problem. Take away the Void Ray's ability to target air units. Make its attack air to ground only. I can provide five sound reasons for doing this:

1. This change will stop or limit to some degree the Mass Void Ray attack.

2. It will force the Protoss player to provide VRs with air cover in the form of Stalkers and Phoenixes.

3. The Protoss Carrier will now have more value in the mid-to-late game. I feel like the VR and the carrier are stepping on each others toes a bit right now. This is why people are forsaking the carrier, I think. Why use it, when you have a cheaper more efficient version in the VR?

4. The Phoenix will have even more value as a defensive unit. It all ready can dog-fight with the latest patch. Let's make it even more needed.

5. This change will create more resource tension for the Protoss player. i.e Void Rays require escorts to be effective, so can my economy support this investment?

Just an idea. What do you all think?

Good Idea? Bad Idea? Not sure?

And please say why you think so.

[coolswampert]

I completely agree with what you're saying, but I'd also like to add that Void Rays are supposed to be described as "surgical strike craft". This doesn't imply massing large amounts of them. The way I see it, Void Rays would be best served if they were specifically used to "snipe" buildings in a base, and then when opposition appears, run away with their speed boost.

I also think that the carrier should be more respected than it is. You're right in saying that people are using the cheaper Void Ray as an alternative.

[Krikkitone]

I think instead it should lose the Speed upgrade... replace it with something that causes the void ray to charge up faster (and maybe make the normal charge up slower)

[Hoywolf]

I agree with this change, I understand the reasoning behind it, but they it will mirror the function of a BL which I think blizzard will not like. Its also like a T2.5 unit as well, as you dont need an extra building to start producing it unlike the BL which need hive and then a greater spire.

Another good solution is to give the VR a separate anti-air attack, maybe something weaker, so it doesn't get to cont to charge the beams on air units. This will make their function still different from a BL but at the same time, stop them from the real issue of being able to use their charge on air units.

[//MavericK\\]

I like this idea and think that it might be a start...but I still feel like the Void Ray is being used in the wrong way. A previous poster has it right. The Void Ray is, first and foremost, a building sniper.

A much weaker anti air attack sounds good. However, you then run into the problem of it overlapping with the Carrier and the Phoenix.

[DesertRose]

Imo the Void Ray is only problematic on specific maps in PvT because T needs Vikings to drive the Void Rays back. But either the Viking comes out so late that the Void Ray rush was able to inflict significant damage or it leaves the T open to non Void Ray pushs.
I doubt that changing the Void Ray to ground only would chance this situation to the better, but would make it far harder for P to deal with armored air units.

Also I'm not sure if T struggles so much with Void Rays because they never tried something different then the 3Barracks build against 4Gate or 3Gate+Robotics. Would it be possible to defead P ground pushs by going Barracks, Factory and then another Barracks if the goes 4Gate, using Infantery and Siege Tanks, or go Ghost Academy, Barracks if the goes 3Gate+Robotics, using Infantery, Siege Tanks and Ghosts?

[TheRabidDeer]

Erm, if you give the VR only a AtG attack, then how would they perform their role of being capital ship destroyers?

[phazonjunkie]

Actually they had a few builds where void rays only attacked ground iirc.

But personally I think there's a much easier change that could be implemented that would enable a Terran player to be able to deal more effectively with mass Rays & VR rushes:

Reclassify Vikings as light (air mode only). This would negate the VR's bonus against them when fully charged up, and thus make Vikings a much more viable counter. Conversely, this would also make Phoenixes more cost effective vs Vikings than they are now, and give Protoss players more of a reason to build them.

[//MavericK\\]

Reclassify Vikings as light (air mode only). This would negate the VR's bonus against them when fully charged up, and thus make Vikings a much more viable counter. Conversely, this would also make Phoenixes more cost effective vs Vikings than they are now, and give Protoss players more of a reason to build them.

I like this idea. Its much more simplified than mine.

After a little more experimentation, I have found that Vikings can be a pretty good counter to void rays, with two very BIG caveats.

1. Vikings must, must, have at least the first air weapons upgrade and then the first armor upgrade. This gives them a fighting chance (with proper micro) against VRs. (Phazon's suggestion would enable a Terran player to hold off getting the armor upgrade for a little while).

2. You have to micro the crap out of the Vikes and snipe VRs from extreme range, one at a time.

Erm, if you give the VR only a AtG attack, then how would they perform their role of being capital ship destroyers?

I understand where your coming from, but the VR is strong against everything when massed. More than 7 or 8 VRs, by themselves, can tear the crap out of most early to mid-game forces because of the charge-up ability.

Look at this another way...the Thor is a great unit against light air units and armored, slower units. It sucks wind against small units like zerglings, zealots and marines, even when you have five or six Thors massed up. Brood Lords can't go anywhere without air support, Seige Tanks fall prey to small fast units, Colossi get owned by air units, immortals fall to small units. Nothing really scares VRs at the moment, when enmass and upgraded. Sure, there are counters to them, but not like some of the other above units I mentioned.

[DesertRose]

Reclassify Vikings as light (air mode only). This would negate the VR's bonus against them when fully charged up, and thus make Vikings a much more viable counter.

The problem isn't that Vikings aren't a good counter, the problem is that Vikings come out up to a minute to late. Making them light would not change the main reason why T struggle so much against a Void Ray rush.
Also, while making Vikings light instead of armored would make them easier to use against Void Rays, but would make them much, much weaker against Phoenixes; currently Vikings just barly stand their ground against Phoenixes.