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Thread: GDC 2010: Rob Pardo regrets original Starcraft hero design

  1. #21

    Default Re: GDC 2010: Rob Pardo regrets original Starcraft hero design

    I found a lot of the Heroes to be pretty useful... Well, except Jimmy.

    See, that's the source of his alcoholism -- not that he was used by Mengsk and Kerrigan, but that he wasn't used by the players.

    Kerrigan was the most useful in my opinion. I remember beating the Braxis Protoss mission with her at the battlefront constantly.

    I wouldn't mind a WC3-style Hero system. It was very fun and engaging. What I don't want is for Heroes to be respawned at an Alter of Heroes or something. Hmm... in those Zerg missions involving the Chrysalis, whenever it was out of sight for a short duration the mission would end in failure. I'd like something like this to be used; whenever Jim is on his knees, you have to go back and rescue him in an allotted span of time, or fail.
    Last edited by Visions of Khas; 03-28-2010 at 07:07 PM.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  2. #22

    Default Re: GDC 2010: Rob Pardo regrets original Starcraft hero design

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex06 View Post
    Protoss heroes technically could "warp-out" when their health reaches 0 and be retrainable at a Nexus, but I don't see any other way for Terran and Zerg units (that remains within the confines of realism).
    No problem: an unkillable dropship that evacs the Terran hero, and Zerg heroes generally are just an enhanced strain, or if it's one of the intelligent Infested Terrans, they could burrow and dissapear, to be buyed again at the Hatchery, or just use an unkillable Nydus Worm.

  3. #23

    Default Re: GDC 2010: Rob Pardo regrets original Starcraft hero design

    Such simple mechanics seem to eliminate any fear of losing a Hero, though.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  4. #24

    Default Re: GDC 2010: Rob Pardo regrets original Starcraft hero design

    I think the two most usable heroes were Zeratul (with his immense health and attack power) and Infested Kerrigan (with her immense health and attack power and her large array of abilities). I really do hope that they go out of their way to make the campaign heroes really unique.

  5. #25

    Default Re: GDC 2010: Rob Pardo regrets original Starcraft hero design

    Quote Originally Posted by n00bonicPlague View Post
    I think the two most usable heroes were Zeratul (with his immense health and attack power) and Infested Kerrigan (with her immense health and attack power and her large array of abilities). I really do hope that they go out of their way to make the campaign heroes really unique.
    And of course they could both cloak.

    I thought Infested Kerrigan was the coolest hero in the game personally. :P

    I think if Zerg heroes have fairly good regen out of combat, then they'll be fine with the SC1 system. (Terran heroes can be healed/repaired, Protoss heroes have shield regen, Zerg heroes would have this.)


    The Mother of all Queens!

    Thanks to Dynamik- for the signature!

  6. #26

    Default Re: GDC 2010: Rob Pardo regrets original Starcraft hero design

    Pardo used the original Starcraft as an example to one of their failures: the Heroes (such as Jim Raynor, Sarah Kerrigan, and Fenix -- to name a few). The heroes were fragile, and players would keep them sitting at the base to avoid failing the mission.
    *sigh*

    This is simply not true. In the original SC, most heroes were vehicles, meaning they could be repaired. BW introduced medics, allowing heroes to be healed. Sure, maybe there were some missions where heroes are biological, but that's usually to create a sense of desperation - namely, the compound missions. Granted, the ones where fenix was a zealot were boring as hell, but those were the pointless and boring filler missions.

    Even in the zerg missions in BW, I was able to make good use of dragoon fenix - so far, he's proved quite useful in taking out tanks and can absorb enough hits that he can involve himself in many battles, whether or not they turn out a failure and he has to retreat! So long as I'm careful and the tanks don't chase him.

    Raynor's presence saves you more than a few marines and this can even be discovered in the first mission of episode 1. Heroes do a lot to turn the tide of battle. But keeping with the theme of military sci-fi, all they do is turn the tide of battle - alone, they are useless and need to be rescued like everything else. Rather then distinct heroes, they're more like rugged veterans of war - which SC drove to preserve. Heroes are military commanders, experienced assassins, and battle scarred veterans. They aren't magical.

    SC 2 contradicts this by allowing Raynor to destroy up to three or four sunkens in a straight line with a sniper rifle. A target that requires entire kill teams. It's... well retarded would be an understatement.

    A team of four heroes together taking on an entire army is also retarded. There's no feeling of franticness - only sometimes do you have to maneuver to prevent being outnumbered (which SHOULD happen a little more than once or twice; it should happen all the time! On Brutal especially, it should be a dance to survive), and even then, there's tricks to get away from it easily. The belly of the beast fucking sucked. I hated that level. I hated it.

    Even the boss fight was annoying as shit. -_-

    Pardo feels that Blizzard failed in this task with the original Starcraft, specifically when it came to hero units. By their nature, heroes should be the character that is the most powerful unit on the field who leads armies and can turn the tide of battle. In Starcraft, though, the hero units were fragile, especially in battles involving 50-plus units, so players ended up sheltering their hero back at their base.
    Which is silly, considering a larger battle is naturally more chaotic and naturally an army's leader probably will fall if he's leading the charge!

    It's almost like blizzard doesn't know basic game design, so they decide to change the entire theme of the game and its universe, with each gameplay adjustment, or something.

    But what am I saying?! That's just crazy. Crazy me for thinking that.

    See, that's the source of his alcoholism -- not that he was used by Mengsk and Kerrigan, but that he wasn't used by the players.
    No, it was because developers told him that he'd have to become a brilliant schizophrenic and love kerrigan again in a 'get the girl' plot he was hoping to avoid.
    Last edited by solidsamurai; 05-30-2012 at 11:42 PM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: GDC 2010: Rob Pardo regrets original Starcraft hero design

    There you people go, using the word schizophrenic incorrectly again.

  8. #28

    Default Re: GDC 2010: Rob Pardo regrets original Starcraft hero design

    I actually took that from the wings of liberty review - an article posted on this very website.

    No problem: an unkillable dropship that evacs the Terran hero,
    In age of empires 3, heroes fall unconscious and it's the presence of other soldiers that revive them. They can remain unconscious for hours and the enemy will ignore them.

    That said, there should be some situations where if the player is really stupid, then their hero will die permanently. Ie. In a 'lava rising' mission like the devil's playground, if Raynor gets burned in lava too long, he will die and it's a mission restart (he can't fall unconscious when there's lava all around). Other missions might have a 'no coming back!' where you're fighting a merciless enemy like the zerg, and heroes that pass out are promptly attacked and you see a cut scene of them getting eaten (very fast and startling like).

    You can, of course, stop it, if you get a force to beat back the enemy in time. But you only have a few seconds to maybe a minute.


    All that said, I think blizzard should make loading times faster and make restarting quicker.
    Last edited by solidsamurai; 06-04-2012 at 01:54 AM.

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