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Thread: Stalker Lore Question

  1. #71

    Default Re: Stalker Lore Question

    Pffft, this is just your explanation for everything: because Blizzard is so damn stupid. At the very least try to come up with a better reasoning.
    I mean, Misla's probably right in this instance. The Tal'Darim of WoL act against the wishes of Narud in WoL, then are suddenly his servants in HotS, and are completely transformed in LotV into DEldar expies. That's classic Making Shit Up As You Go.TM

    Khas explained that the lack of the khala made the protoss literally crazy and, combined with their resentment of the xel'naga, resulted in racial warfare.
    We know this is false, given that Dark Templar do not succumb to madness; the Aiur-based Tal'Darim did not lose their sanity when their communal link was severed by Sundrop; and the Daelaam's stability post-Amon. Of course, Khas and co. may perceive the heightened sense of individuality as insanity in the context of their society and culture, even though it's not a true case of clinical mental illness or psychosis.
    Last edited by Visions of Khas; 08-27-2019 at 06:17 AM.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  2. #72

    Default Re: Stalker Lore Question

    Speaking of... I am working on an AU proposal. I re-characterized the ihanrii as mad scientists rather than taldarim clones. The taldarim view of xel’naga is entirely mythical, whereas the ihanrii actually met and learned from them. Hence the mad scientist preoccupation.

    For example, their “animated stone” is an engineered coral/lichen.

    They aren’t happy about the first contact war.

  3. #73

    Default Re: Stalker Lore Question

    For example, their “animated stone” is an engineered coral/lichen.
    *shrug* I just assumed it was the same material as the Keystone, and was likewise a type of programmable matter whose true form was in some implicate order or quantum non-local hidden variables; or perhaps its mechanical systems are sealed away in an extrusion into the void, with the stone itself being but a small fraction extending into material space, like a tesseract.

    But I see you're taking the Yuuzhan Vong route. 😆
    Last edited by Visions of Khas; 08-27-2019 at 06:38 AM.

  4. #74

    Default Re: Stalker Lore Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    *shrug* I just assumed it was the same material as the Keystone, and was likewise a type of programmable matter whose true form was in some implicate order or quantum non-local hidden variables; or perhaps its mechanical systems are sealed away in an extrusion into the void, with the stone itself being but a small fraction extending into material space, like a tesseract.

    But I see you're taking the Yuuzhan Vong route. 😆
    It can still be both. Rather than manufacturing the animated stone, they use the coral/lichen to grow it.

    The mad scientist thing is meant to make them culturally distinct and emphasize their emulation of the xel'naga, because otherwise their fluff is mostly redundant to both the khalai and the tal'darim.

    The khalai protoss empire believed themselves the inheritors of the xel'naga's legacy, but their attitude toward the xel'naga was... mixed? Just read the backstory:

    Khas, gathering many young Protoss together, was able to teach the new generation of warriors how to access their latent psychic bond. These young ones, suddenly free to distance themselves from the horrendous strife around them, were able to see clearly that the conflict of their race was folly. They believed that the Xel’Naga had been right to abandon them and that because their racial essence had been corrupted by the rise of ego, they were indeed a failed creation. They maintained, however, that because their inherent failure was not of their own doing, the inner conflict of the Protoss and racial turmoil was baseless and hollow.
    In keeping with the strict codes of the Khala, the Protoss took upon themselves the burden of the Dae’Uhl, or ‘Great Stewardship’. Following the ancient traditions of the Xel’Naga, the Dae’Uhl called for the Protoss to protect and safeguard the lesser races that lived under their shadow. Unlike their predecessors, however, the Protoss refused to manipulate or interfere in the evolutionary processes of the lesser races under their protection. Ever vigilant against xenomorphic threats, the Protoss kept a close watch over their unsuspecting wards.
    The Shelak Tribe was the Tribe closest to the ancient Xel’Naga race. Therefore, they were appointed by the Judicator to study and protect the powerful Khaydarin Crystals that empower the awesome technologies of the Protoss. The Shelak, intrigued by the legacy of the Xel’Naga, continuously study their ancient texts. Although the Judicator have banned all Xel’Naga teachings, the Shelak are still allowed access to the archives. The Judicator hope that the Shelak can unravel the mysteries of the Xel’Naga and thus expand their knowledge through the Khala.
    The xel'naga were right to abandon the protoss as a failure, but their failure was the xel'naga's fault to begin with (apparently?). The Empire took up the mantle of the xel'naga as stewards, yet prohibited the same level of genetic and social manipulation. The Conclave banned all xel'naga teachings, allowing only the Shelak's librarians to study and reverse-engineer them.

    That's basically the sum of the Conclave's beliefs, but you wouldn't know it from all the other fiction depicting them as cargo cultists who worship the xel'naga.

    Meanwhile, the tal'darim are generic psychotic warrior race pirate dudes who mindlessly worship the xel'naga without apparently knowing anything about them. It isn't clear if they worship xel'naga in general or just Amon, since their fluff says both at different points.

    I find it really strange that the ihanrii seemingly behave like cargo cultists in some instances, like putting literal magic runes on their tech and believing that fighting really good will get them a place in the afterlife. That feels far more appropriate for the tal'darim to do.

    Especially given other tal'darim lore bits. The slayers (stalker) only became such because they loved fighting so much; although this means they cannot advance the Chain of Ascension, but apparently they don't care anymore. The vanguard (dragoon/immortal) are considered disgraced for either failing to die in battle or failing to win.

    So I think it would make sense to take the cargo cultist elements from the ihanrii and move them to the tal'darim. It would give more color to the tal'darim anyway if they placed runes on their tech to repel heretics and indicate their faith, and to fight hard because they believe it guarantees a place for them in the afterlife.

    The ihanrii could be more agnostic, atheist, or even autotheist. They consider themselves the inheritors of the xel'naga legacy like the Empire does, but aren't restricted by the Great Stewardship. Quite the opposite, they like to experiment on other species just like the xel'naga did.




    For that matter... I doubt even Blizzard knows what the xel'naga are supposed to be anymore, since different contexts treat them completely differently and sources contradict on basic details. The wiki just copies the backstory from the decades old manual, adding tiny clarifications that these scientist xel'naga were Amon's followers because Rohana said so in LotV. At the same time, Rohana says everything she knows is literally myth. Myth that the protoss apparently knew forever but was never revealed until LotV.

    Whatever. It seems pretty clear to me that, in-universe and out-of-universe, nobody actually knows the deal with the xel'naga. They're a plot device of the worst kind. But I digress.

    I spun all that into my AU proposal's depiction of the Conclave's belief system. The protoss have at best fragmentary records of the first age, so they don't have concrete facts. Religious tribes, like the tal'darim, believe that the xel'naga are literal space gods who live forever in heaven or whatever. Atheist tribes believe that the xel'naga were aliens who uplifted the protoss and/or their own genetic ancestors.

    The Conclave is technically atheist (they engage in ancestor worship but that's not the same thing since the Khala is literally a technological afterlife) and believes the xel'naga are mythologized versions of their own ancestors. They're factually wrong, as the xel'naga were actually aliens, but it's a reasonable conclusion based on what little they do know. The zerg are the only ones who know the xel'naga were aliens, because the zerg exterminated the xel'naga.

    I'm ignoring the infinite cycle nonsense because it adds nothing of value but only creates needless confusion. The zerg want to eat the protoss to achieve perfection and conquer the universe, and that's all you need to care about.

    The nerazim are questionably agnostic. They don't know anything about the xel'naga so they believe worshiping them is pointless, but they suspect that horrible Lovecraftian mythos deities exist in the dark energy of outer space. The Voice in the Darkness is one example. Too spooky for me!

  5. #75

    Default Re: Stalker Lore Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post

    The khalai protoss empire believed themselves the inheritors of the xel'naga's legacy, but their attitude toward the xel'naga was... mixed? Just read the backstory:


    The xel'naga were right to abandon the protoss as a failure, but their failure was the xel'naga's fault to begin with (apparently?). The Empire took up the mantle of the xel'naga as stewards, yet prohibited the same level of genetic and social manipulation. The Conclave banned all xel'naga teachings, allowing only the Shelak's librarians to study and reverse-engineer them.

    That's basically the sum of the Conclave's beliefs, but you wouldn't know it from all the other fiction depicting them as cargo cultists who worship the xel'naga.

    The Khalai vision is that the xelnagas are alien forerunners, and such that they surpassed their cult as divinities that are critical to retake their philosophy and avoid doing the same in a role of race protectors who now take their place as protected by being primitive

    Meanwhile, the tal'darim are generic psychotic warrior race pirate dudes who mindlessly worship the xel'naga without apparently knowing anything about them. It isn't clear if they worship xel'naga in general or just Amon, since their fluff says both at different points.
    they are not psychotic believe in the philosophy of power with a Darwinian nature, they believe that ascends by force in fact their worship is exclusive to AMon because the idea of the first ascendant is to be below Amon and in the interpretation of Alarak AMon is just one more step to the divinity, a paropiated analogy could be that the followers of Khas are Athens while the Taldarim are a Spartan culture that as a single value the ability to be warlike, arts and other things of the most sophisticated cultures things of weak people

    I find it really strange that the ihanrii seemingly behave like cargo cultists in some instances, like putting literal magic runes on their tech and believing that fighting really good will get them a place in the afterlife. That feels far more appropriate for the tal'darim to do.
    since they consider their home tyrador iX they could suffer isolation when migrating in a warp gate to another planet when the relations with the Xelnagas were quite positive, (basically the name of the tribe is a name that the protoss of Aiur give to the Xelnagas) and they did not experience events like the Aeon of Strife but even the isolation of the demystification of the Xelnagas and consider them divine, and likewise they demigods
    Especially given other tal'darim lore bits. The slayers (stalker) only became such because they loved fighting so much; although this means they cannot advance the Chain of Ascension, but apparently they don't care anymore. The vanguard (dragoon/immortal) are considered disgraced for either failing to die in battle or failing to win.
    very spartan
    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    I mean, Misla's probably right in this instance. The Tal'Darim of WoL act against the wishes of Narud in WoL, then are suddenly his servants in HotS, and are completely transformed in LotV into DEldar expies. That's classic Making Shit Up As You Go.TM


    in legacy or void they argue that basically Amon doesn't care about the Taldarim, he has watched them chase their tail for millennia celebrating it when they die while they think that amon was celebrating the force, that there is conflict where they die does not present any inconvenience, it is also mentioned that in realms Amon doesn't care about time basically who is impatient with his return is -narud
    Last edited by drakolobo; 08-29-2019 at 01:40 PM.

  6. #76

    Default Re: Stalker Lore Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Especially given other tal'darim lore bits. The slayers (stalker) only became such because they loved fighting so much; although this means they cannot advance the Chain of Ascension, but apparently they don't care anymore. The vanguard (dragoon/immortal) are considered disgraced for either failing to die in battle or failing to win.
    You don't know that. The skin lore merely said not all ta'darim seek ascension, and would rather sharpen their killing skills.

  7. #77

    Default Re: Stalker Lore Question

    Quote Originally Posted by drakolobo View Post
    The Khalai vision is that the xelnagas are alien forerunners, and such that they surpassed their cult as divinities that are critical to retake their philosophy and avoid doing the same in a role of race protectors who now take their place as protected by being primitive


    they are not psychotic believe in the philosophy of power with a Darwinian nature, they believe that ascends by force in fact their worship is exclusive to AMos because the idea of the first ascendant is to be below Amon and in the interpretation of Alarak AMon is just one more step to the divinity, a paropiated analogy could be that the followers of Khas are attentive while the Taldarim are a Spartan culture that as a single value the ability to be warlike and arts and other things of the most sophisticated cultures things weak people


    since they consider their home tyrador iX they could suffer isolation when migrating in a warp gate to another planet when the relations with the Xelnagas were quite positive, (basically the name of the tribe is a name that the proti of Aiur give to the Xelnagas) and they did not experience events like the Aeon of Strife but even the isolation of the demystification of the Xelnagas and consider them divine, and likewise demigods

    very spartan


    in legacy or void they argue that basically Amon doesn't care about the Taldarim, he has watched them chase their tail for millennia celebrating it when they die while they think that amon was celebrating the force, that there is conflict where they die does not present any inconvenience, it is also mentioned that in realms Amon doesn't care about time basically who is impatient with his return is -narud
    The messiness of the canon lore is the reason why I prefer to devise an alternate universe where I may clean things up to make a modicum of sense and remain consistent.

    Amon is a pretty poorly written villain. The Overmind was much more interesting. Despite being a galactic space monster, the Overmind was not malicious or cruel. It displayed virtues like compassion and devotion toward its children. Its motive was reasonable.

  8. #78

    Default Re: Stalker Lore Question

    Which once again is just you saying to just smash the whole thing and start over because you don't want to make any attempt to clarify it up

  9. #79

    Default Re: Stalker Lore Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Which once again is just you saying to just smash the whole thing and start over because you don't want to make any attempt to clarify it up
    Recycling all the factions, like Confederacy, Dominion, UED, Ihanrii, Protoss Empire, etc to coexist is hardly smashing everything. Sometimes a reboot can be a good thing for an IP, particularly if the continuity has become so convoluted and unwieldy that nobody even knows what is going on anymore.




    Also, Blizzard has clarified it many times. The fandom wiki has extensive explanations of just about everything. That still does not solve the irreconcilable contradictions and plot holes brought about by the rewrites during development and the retcons between sources.

    Every attempt to rationalize these irreconcilable contradictions only introduces more problems elsewhere, hence why I label them irreconcilable. Fanboys have to rely on doublethink and handwaves because there is no rational way to explain it while maintaining the same series of events.




    For example, the zerg's initial invasion of Koprulu is chock full of plot holes because Metzen was making things up as he went with zero regard for consistency and then retconning everything later.

    The zerg discovered the terrans decades ago and subtly invaded Koprulu for years before starting open warfare. The Confederacy deployed psi-emitters, causing the zerg to congregate on those emitters. Why did the zerg do that?

    Well, the zerg were in the sector to assimilate the terrans because of their potential for purity of form to weaponize against the protoss. The implication is that the zerg will attempt to exterminate humanity, just as they did to every other species they encountered because that's their shtick. Terran genes lead to all sorts of weird results like the aberration and the changeling that have never been explained. This ultimately goes back to the terrans engaging in rampant transhumanism.

    But following the emitters makes no sense. The zerg would know it's all a trap since they historically used the same ploy themselves. It would be more efficient to harvest human population centers and process them for useful genes. Sending large forces to investigate emitters is strategic stupidity. We know that the organized zerg aren't mindlessly attracted to emitters because the emitters are never used after episode 1 except to attract feral zerg, because if they were then it would be a viable strategy against them. But even this isn't consistent, since in Speed of Darkness they divert forces from the assault on Mar Sara City to investigate a random psi-emitter and this gives the Magistrate time to evacuate.

    But Metzen immediately forgets all that and has the zerg abandon everything to focus entirely on Kerry, and then abandon the conflict against the terrans once they have her. The reason for this is because if they continued their assault, the Dominion would be destroyed. Because Metzen gave the zerg arbitrarily infinite resources, turning them into a plot device. Since the zerg are now a plot device, Metzen needs to shoehorn more plot devices to explain how they are defeated, like only the dark templar killing their leaders. I believe SC2 retcons this as Kerry being infested to assassinate Amon, which is nonsensical but it actually does make some degree of sense: they were never interested in the terrans per se, but in creating a new generation of xel'naga to kill Amon by finding another species with purity of form. Given that Ouros could sent Zeratul psychic visions through the Overmind's corpse, one could posit that Overmind and Ouros were collaborating all along. Or something like that, I'm rationalizing here because Metzen clearly had no idea what he was doing.

    Then Metzen forgets what he just wrote again, and decides that the real reason the zerg were in Koprulu was because they were looking for Aiur. Which he later tries to paper over by claiming Amon's programming forced them to invade. Despite having all the knowledge of the xel'naga, and deep space probes actively monitoring protoss space (and these probes led the empire and nerazim to terran space in the first place), and being told to go there specifically by Amon, the zerg cannot find Aiur. The moment they find it they invade immediately, so the detour to terran space was completely superfluous until the later retcon that it was done ultimately as a plot against Amon.

    Although considering that Amon/Duran kept the tal'darim around without the khala despite intending the khala specifically as a mind-control mechanism and spending millions of years doing nothing when he could trivially finish his plans by taking some tal'darim to Zerus and fusing them with the Overmind, I'm guessing that Amon/Duran was severely retarded and kept making blatantly stupid mistakes that sabotaged his own plans.




    Many other people have pointed out the plot holes that resulted from Metzen making things up as he went along without regard for consistency. The plot of SC1 relies entirely on plot contrivances, although it's remembered most fondly because nobody acts blatantly stupid. The plot of BW is more controversial, since the characters often act in blatantly stupid ways to allow the plot to advance and the plot contrivances are much more obvious. Pretty much everyone agrees that SC2 is blatantly stupid on every level since the poor writing is so painfully obvious.

    I'm not interested in rationalizing Metzen's bad writing. It simply isn't possible to do that, at least not without making everything needlessly convoluted and impossible to keep track of. That's the whole problem with making things up on the fly without regard for consistency. That's what happened to Warcraft and everybody knows it and we make a game of mocking the nonsensical lore.

    I want to write a new plot that makes sense from the start and isn't needlessly complicated. I prefer a simple premise like "terrans have their own complex politics as we can relate to, the zerg invade koprulu to assimilate terrans for planned war against protoss, the protoss get involved anyway and things spiral out of control from there." While liberally recycling everything I find remotely interesting from the official continuity, like the cerberus zerg and the ihanrii.

    I actually found the ihanrii so interesting that I recycled them into my alternate continuity proposal as mad scientists who the protoss empire provoked into war, while moving their cargo cult aspects to the tal'darim to give them more color because I think the tal'darim can be interesting. I've probably given more though to tal'darim culture than Blizzard ever has.




    I don't understand why you are so obsessed with trying to justify Metzen's bad writing. Almost nobody else is interested in doing that, and for good reason. There are more people who want SC2 to be rewritten from the ground up, or even for BW to be rewritten to plug its plot holes.

    What is it that you like about Starcraft? For me, it's the aesthetics, politics, blah blah. The sorts of things that I can easily recycle into a reboot. What about Starcraft do you like that can or cannot be recycled into a reboot?

    You said you liked Kerry, right? While I dislike using the zerg as a plot device who obey anyone holding their leash, I am open to the idea of recycling QoB as a zerg avatar. I don't think redemption makes much sense because someone who is infested clearly isn't the same person anymore, I am open to the idea of Kerry being partly de-infested (becoming what lore calls a "mutate") and allowed to pursue a character arc where she lives in fear of the zerg. Like Ripley 8 or Seven of Nine.

  10. #80

    Default Re: Stalker Lore Question

    Not everything is meant to explained in a 100% rational manner.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    I mean, Misla's probably right in this instance. The Tal'Darim of WoL act against the wishes of Narud in WoL, then are suddenly his servants in HotS, and are completely transformed in LotV into DEldar expies. That's classic Making Shit Up As You Go.TM
    I keep telling you, Blizzard simply didn't tell us the reason why the WoL Tal'darim wouldn't hand the keystone pieces to Duran. It wouldn't surprise me if Duran was actually testing Raynor or something.....

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