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Thread: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

  1. #11

    Default Re: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Huh ,if you guys are interested, I have a list of things I didn't like about the main plot points of S8 and a potential rewrite of those plot points almost done. I think everything has been said on the internet about the smaller details..
    Fire away. I'm likely going to be in agreement in advance anyway, heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    They talk about sociological story vs psychological story but what they really mean, based on their examples, is that the later seasons are full of author fiat.
    Yeah, it all boils down to mechanical/lazy writing at the end of the day. Still, the series slowly leaned toward a core of larger than life characters that you know wouldn't really die (... until there was no plot development left for them, ie: like in a final season), which sort of undermined their established idea of each character potentially dying at any point/that each individual, whilst shining bright, are bound to forces greater than the individual (as exemplified with Ned Stark).
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  2. #12

    Default Re: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

    Fire away. I'm likely going to be in agreement in advance anyway, heh.
    Prepare for a wall of text then! Here goes

    Some things I didn't like about the major plot points

    -The white walkers are too easily defeated for an antagonist that was hyped for 7 seasons
    -After the fall of the night king, it's hard to care about Cersei or mad Danny because the scope of their threat is minor compared to what the Others represented.
    -Imo, a good finale should build tension to a maximum, release and then end. In season 8, the tension climbs to its max, then it has a huge release when the night king is defeated and then it builds again but never higher than at the night king’s fight. See, that last bump is my problem.
    -Jon's role is not important enough for someone that was resurrected. Sure, he united people but to me that's still not enough.
    -Bran is OP but doesn't do anything important. It is assumed that he's this great mastermind but the story doesn't really portray that enough.
    -It's never explained wtf Melisandre did in Volantis and then she comes out of nowhere.
    -Cersei didn't have any cards up her sleeves other than surrounding herself with people which I find kinda lame.


    Some things that limit what I can do

    -I must fix the problems I mentioned earlier (obviously)
    -I can't change season 7. This is a bit of a problem because season 7 made some decisions that put the story in a corner.
    -I can only write major plot points to season 8 and in 6 episodes
    -I must write this in the universe of the show, not the books. At the same time, I need to respect the wishes of both type of fans as much as possible(or anyways, what I think they want). This is important because a lot of book fans want the full Azor Ahai prophecy to be fulfilled in the show but the prophecy doesn't have as much traction in the show. If Jon stabs Danny and his sword catches fire, no average watcher would understand wtf is happening unless it's properly contextualized first. At the very least, the viewers need to be reminded of that stuff.
    -It must respect what made this show great: shock moments based on destroying fantasy tropes (eg: Ned doesn't magically escape getting his head cut off), political intrigues, grittiness of semi-reality, etc. At the same time, the show has been increasing the amount of fantasy tropes. Especially with season 7 so I guess a balance must be met.
    -GRRM apparently wants to have Bran on the throne in the last book. I don't mind this but with how the show is setup at the end of season 7 and with only 6 ep for season 8, it's too hard to make a story that would compel me based on that premise. There's just too many things to resolve and I don't find that they developed Bran's character enough to do it. I had an idea for it based on the 3 eyed raven = Jesus of the lord of light but for some reason it just doesn't feel right to me for the 2 to be same person. Also, not a fan of Bran = Night king ideas. So anyways, I'll skip this restriction.
    -I'm sure mad queen Danny is part of GRRM directions too. Again, I don't feel like there's enough room for it. I'll try to add some of that idea in though.

    My rewrite

    Some notes
    -Sorry for the low quality. Hopefully you can understand it.
    -I don't know if I'll finish it.
    -Hopefully not too cringy and better than D&D version
    -Details are just general ideas to make some points easier to follow.



    ep1
    -Danny's army arrive at Winterfell like in the show
    -Later on, Bran and Sam meet with Jon and reveal to him that he's a Targaryen. Bran explains the 3 eyes raven and his powers to Jon. Jon reacts to his heritage like he did in the show (denial, anger, etc.) but also part of his reaction is being angry and confused at bran due to his new apathetic/emotionless personality and the fact that he’s not who he remembers him to be. Jon tries to reason Bran out of this new 3 eye raven persona and tries to remind him that he's his young brother. The conversation ends with Jon saying something along the lines of “if you can really see the past and change it, why don't you do something to help us" before storming out. Bran doesn’t answer back but it is shown subtly that this did affect him.
    -There is a gathering of the main leaders to discuss the current situation. Danny and Sansa don’t really get along just like in the show. There is talk of how divided the kingdoms are and how hard it was to gather this army. Danny mentions that everyone was once together under her father's banner and if this was still the case, it wouldn’t have been a problem. Sansa shuts her down by reminding her that her father is also the reason why the kingdoms are divided. Following this comment, Bran has a sudden realization and quietly excuse himself.
    -Jon has an argument with Sansa about Danny. Sansa talks to Jon about how her queen is not who she appears to be. She claims that she’s just a Tyrant and wouldn’t respect the independence of the north. Jon promises to talk to Danny about it.
    -Jon does speak to Danny and they discuss how she came to power. There is an emphasis on the brutality of some of her actions. Jon asks her what she would do if Sansa would not submit the north, Danny starts rambling about her delusions of a perfect world and how unity is mandatory for it to work and that it must be achieved at any cost. Jon seems to agree with her about the dream but not at the cost of bloodshed. Their argument escalates and Jon storms off after telling her that she shouldn’t be a leader if she’s not willing to think about other way than violence to win the north. Something along those lines.
    -Bran retreats alone in his chamber. He travels to the past in the time of the mad king to try to change his way. He tells the mad king the current situation and how he was betrayed because of his cruelty. The mad king doesn't believe Bran so in a desperate attempt, bran tries to warg into him but can't keep control. Time starts running faster and we see scenes of the mad king doing cruel acts (like burning people alive) while bran fights him for control. One scene in particular, we see the mad king raping Tywin's wife. Finally, we see Jamie come to kill the king and bran gets out of his body. Bran has a “what have I done” kind of expression. He's the reason why the mad king was mad.

    ep2
    -Jamie arrives at Winterfell. Things happen like in the show and he goes on trial with Brienne vouching for him. Jamie tells them that Cersei has a secret force, the golden company, and they boarded Euron’s ships and are heading here to betray them. Theon and Yarra leaves to intercept Euron’s fleet and prevent them from landing.
    -Yara and Theon are in position near White harbor. They think they spotted Cersei's ship coming back. To their surprise, the boats’ flag have the lord of light symbol on them. It's Melisandre, she came back from her trip from Valantis with red priest warriors. Theon and Yarra tells her that they were expecting Euron. Melisandre smirk and tells them that they have nothing to fear and that the Lannister’s soldiers will fight against the undeads. She has seen it in her visions. She shows it to them in the fire. They ask about the Golden company, Melisandre claims to know nothing of it.
    -Defenses are being prepped in Winterfell. There is a food shortage and Sansa asks Danny to use the Dothraki’s horses for food. This obviously creates even more tension between the 2 and Danny strongly refuses. She is accused of holding back because killing the horses would obviously lower her power standing. The importance of the horse in Dothraki culture is explained.
    -Euron’s ships are finally spotted. Very reluctantly, Theon and Yarra decides to not fire right away and talk to Euron first. They inspect Euron’s ships and after it is clear that there is no trace of the Golden Company, they agree to let the soldiers land at the condition that Euron be held as a hostage.
    -Tyrion learns that Bran has been given green seer powers from Jon. Jon tells him that Bran has changed and he doesn’t care about the world anymore. Tyrion decides to try to go reason with Bran. They get interrupted by strong noises outside. Jon goes to investigate while Tyrion leaves to go talk to Bran.
    -The noise outside is due to tension between the armies (mostly caused by the lack of food). Jon breaks a fight between a group of Dothraki and northmen. He gets burned in the process but realizes that there is no burnt mark. Jon remarks that he’ll need to confront Danny again.
    -Tyrions talk to Bran about using his powers. Bran is somewhat indifferent and asks Tyrion about his mother’s physical appearance (throwback to when he saw her get raped by the mad king). Tyrion confirms her mother’s physical appearance. Tyrion change back the subject to the greenseer’s powers. Bran refuses to go look at the past again but tells Tyrion that he is willing to use his warg ability to scout for the army of the dead. He goes into a raven where he witnesses Tormund and Beric entering house Umber’s seat (this is the last scene of episode 1 in the real season 8). The group is somewhat spooked out by noises before entering the building. The noises turn out to be just wolves running away. Nymeria is spotted among the wolves. Then things happen similar to the end of ep 1 except that Beric gets split from the group through the chaos.

    ep3
    -Melisandre arrives in Winterfell with her red priest warrior. She approaches Jon. She tells him again about how there’s a reason why he was brought back and she knows he’s a Targaryen. She tells him about how azor ahai defeated the others. That he plunged his blade in the breast of his lover. Davos walks in and tells Jon about how great her prophecies had been in the past (in reference to Stannis). Melisandre reminds Jon that he brought her back to life and reminds Davos of the shadow baby that he witnessed.
    -Jon goes to talk to Danny. There is a lot of tension because of their last conversation. Finally, he tells her that he’s a Targaryen. He proves it by putting his hand in the fireplace or something. And then he tells her that he wants to marry her and that their union would solve every problem. Danny tells him that she never planned to share the throne but would think about it.
    -Yarra and Theon arrive at Winterfell with Cersei’s army and Euron in chain. Jamie tells them not to trust Euron. Yarra tells the cast about Melisandre’s vision and how there was no trace of the Golden Company. Euron swears that there is no trickery and then taunt Jamie (probably a line that reference his former love for Cersei or something). Jamie is triggered and draw his sword to go kill Euron. He is easily stopped and someone mentions that it is probably better if both gets locked up. Both of them are be held in cells.
    -There’s a strategy meet up. The plan is for Arya and the red priests to attack the back lines (white walker generals) from one side and the Dothraki to charge from the other side while everyone else holds up the main attack behind the castle walls. The dragons must stay behind because of the threat of the ice spears. Once the generals are busy, then Danny on the back of Drogon followed by Rhaegal will come finish the job. Jon, ghost and Jorah will follow the Dothraki.
    -Everyone breaks to hold a “end of the world” drinking party like in the show. The Dothrakis and Danny are not there. Then she comes in with a few armed Dothrakis. Tension builds until she announces that the Dothrakis following her have killed their horses to provide food. She later tells Jon that she will marry him.
    -Beric (who was previously separated from Tormund and etc) is seen following the white walkers in secret while they arrive at the doorsteps of Winterfell.

    ep4
    -The battle starts with everyone holding up at Winterfell.
    -Arya makes her way around the battlefield with the red priest warriors. She meets up with Beric on the way.
    -Danny with her 2 dragons are roasting a lot of undeads from the rampart.
    -Some of the red priests with Arya starts killing each other. They were actually faceless men. Jaqen Ahgar is there. In some dialogue, its understood that the god of death is the same god that drives the white walker. They fight. (this is kinda extra, could be replaced by zombies).
    -The WW generals raise the dead. The dead attacks in the crypt, people get killed.
    -Brienne takes Jamie out of prison. Euron is left unguarded among the chaos.
    -Arya gets saved by Nymeria and her pack. She jumps on Nymeria and attack the generals. Beric and some red priests still alive join her.
    -The Dothraki charge from the other side but then Viserion falls from the sky and roasts them, kills Jorah.
    -Danny, seeing her Dothrakis getting butchered and the WW generals still up, decides to charge even though the threat of the ice spears is not null at this point (only one side of the pincer move was complete and the wolves can't even kill white walkers).
    -Drogon + Danny and Rhaegal engage the undead dragon. This allows Jon and the dothrakis to continue the attack.
    -The night king is seen in the distance with other WW generals that have spears. They throw their spears and hit Drogon in the wings. Danny falls down and Drogon crashes somewhere else. Meanwhile, Viserion knocks down Rhaegal.
    - The night king comes to Danny and finishes her off with an ice sword while she’s on the ground. The sword is left in her chest.

    ep5

    -Bran wargs into Rhaegal to shake him out and then prevents viserion from re-engaging the remaining Dothrakis + Jon
    -The Dothrakis and Jon finish off the WW generals. The night king recalls Viserion and retreats. The undead around Winterfell fall like in the show.
    -Jon rushes to see Danny. Beric comes along (he was fighting alongside Arya) and gives his life to her but it doesn’t revive her. Instead the ice sword becomes a fire sword and Jon takes it out of Danny’s chest (not exactly the prophecy and kinda too extra but meh, w/e). Rhaegal comes. Jon hops on him and pursue the night king.
    -Dawn breaks. Drogon(who's not dead but very injured) goes to Danny’s corpse and has a sad moment. Then, he’s killed by a ballista shot. Cersei has arrived with the golden company. She had planned to betray them once the battle was “won”. The golden company attacks Winterfell.
    -The Lannisters soldiers turn on everyone else.
    -Theon is with Yarra and Bran at the time. They try to escape but they encounter Euron on the way out. Yarra gets killed, Bran is fatally wounded. Theon kills Euron. Bran wargs into Theon before dying. Unfortunately, he loses some of his powers that way.
    -The mountain comes to claim Sansa by Cersei’s orders. Sansa is with Brienne at the moment. The hounds tells them to get out while he fights the mountain. They both die.
    -Cersei seizes Tyrion
    -Sansa escapes with Brienne. They meet Jamie. Brienne tells him that Cersei got Tyrion. They both go back to save Tyrion.
    -Cersei burns Tyrion alive, Jamie is too late but in anger kills Cersei.

    ep6
    -Tyrion walks out of the fire because he’s a Targaryen.
    -Jon loses track of the night king. He's far beyond the wall.
    -He gets ambushed by the night king on the undead dragon.
    -Both eventually falls down and have a sword fight. They're at the place where the night king turn babies into WW. Jon kills him but the night king marks him before dying. Rhaegal dies from injuries suffered from the fight against Viserion. Jon is lost up north.
    -Epilogue: Tyrion is king and he married Sansa to unite the kingdoms again. Bron is master of coin. Sam is maester. Not everyone is happy and there’s an unstable peace at best. There are rumors that Robin Arryn is planning a rebellion because he claimed to be Sansa’s husband or something. Lyanna Mormont is also planning a revolt because she felt betrayed by Sansa’s decision to marry Tyrion. Some surviving Dothrakis became bandits and are raiding the lands.
    -Theon who is bran along with Arya and ghost venture north to recover Jon's body. You see them walk past the wall and then the camera zooms out and reaches far north. You see blue eyes.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

    Here's my two cents:

    I like the idea of the whole season being focused in and around the White Walkers in order to give them their due and to sell the magnitude of their threat.

    Not so sure about Bran discovering the double whammy of being the cause of the Mad King's madness and revealing that Tyrion is a secret Targeryon. Sure it's twisty and all, but it's kinda on the nose and repetitious of the "origin of Hodor" twist and "Jon Snow is a Targeryon" twist as well as being too sudden and convenient just to set up your ending of having Tyrion be the King at the end. I suppose having Tyrion be King is just as unexpected as having Danny just die without her even having chance to contest for the throne or be all "mad" and Jon Snow becoming the next frickin' Night King(!), but it just seems to good a thing to be true. It's may be in more keeping with the compounded misery that is GoT to have Tyrion actually dying or being severely crippled by Cersei's/Lannister soldiers hands and then having Jaime avenge that by killing/or trying to Cersei.

    As to Cersei's involvement - I like that she's taking some more direct action to clean up her opposition after the battle but I can't for the life of me, justify her actually spending all that time to trek up to Winterfell personally. It'd sort of be beneath her and out of character for her to actually show up there, but I know she kind of has to in order to resolve the story without having to spend more time going down to King's Landing! Perhaps you could have it that the Iron Bank of Braavos do something since the Lannisters have racked up a debt even though it was magically paid off in season 7. It could be tied into the Golden Company is actually under the employ of the Iron Bank (as I believe it often is in the books) and them turning on Cersei in King's Landing and holding her prisoner or something because they don't trust her leadership or her ability to pay off future loans. Also, it would be interesting if the writing took the harder and braver choice to actually have Cersei live at the end since that would subvert expectations that she has to die for all her crimes.

    I would actually prefer a nobody be the King to signify the theme that I think the series was trying to actually subtly convey: that being the King/ that the Iron Throne is meaningless. I don't think people would actually accept a Targeryon as a monarch given their recent and ongoing bad reputation for, you know, madness. Even though Jaime got flak for being a Kingslayer, pretty much everyone was secretly happy that House Targeryon was removed from power. Also, given that the recent bout of monarch's were all illegitimate (being Lannisters) who were at varying degrees being unloved or effective, the one true heir of lineage from the last proper King would be someone from a bonafide Baratheon bloodline (despite being a usurper). The only person we know of that line would be Gendry (given all the purges of Roberts bastards in the first few seasons). Sure, he's a bastard without any renown but so was Jon Snow and I like the idea of it subverting expectations but still making sense.

    I like the idea of having Bran be more active in general and using his warging abilities more - especially with the dragons. Not so sure about the bit about him being wounded by Euron and warging into Theon though. Why would Euron harm/target Bran? Or somehow harm him before making sure Yara and Theon are dealt with first? I can imagine Yarra taking a killing blow so that Theon can then use that distraction to land one of his own on Euron, but I can't figure out how Bran would be injured so severely in this fight that he would then have to warg into Theon.

    Lastly, Bron still ending up as Master of Coin? That's gotta be a joke. He's the most irresponsible person to be in such a position. Sure, he's Lord of Highgarden but it's not clear how wealthy that position can still be given that most of Highgarden's wealth was used to pay off the Iron Throne's debt and any left would've been tied to the family/relatives of the Tyrells.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  4. #14

    Default Re: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

    Not so sure about Bran discovering the double whammy of being the cause of the Mad King's madness and revealing that Tyrion is a secret Targeryon. Sure it's twisty and all, but it's kinda on the nose and repetitious of the "origin of Hodor" twist and "Jon Snow is a Targeryon" twist as well as being too sudden and convenient just to set up your ending of having Tyrion be the King at the end. I suppose having Tyrion be King is just as unexpected as having Danny just die without her even having chance to contest for the throne or be all "mad" and Jon Snow becoming the next frickin' Night King(!), but it just seems to good a thing to be true. It's may be in more keeping with the compounded misery that is GoT to have Tyrion actually dying or being severely crippled by Cersei's/Lannister soldiers hands and then having Jaime avenge that by killing/or trying to Cersei.
    Yeah you're right it's a bit too much to have both revelations like this. I can cut the Tyrion = Targaryen. I'm not sure I'm willing to have him die though I see your point. It would be very GoT for him to die but at the same time it doesn't feel right. Jamie could save him in time. Then again, that would feel forced as well. Not sure what I prefer.

    If I remove that Tyrion portion of the time travel, do you think it's more acceptable? I get that it's still repetitious for him to be the cause of the mad king but I need to have him use his time travel power again (because why wouldn't he?) while also giving him a reason not to do it. Him going to the past to try to change the Mad King only to end up failing anchors the idea that it's useless to time travel. It keeps this god like power in check. I think in the show the reason is just that he doesn't control when he can travel to the past which I find too easy.

    Speaking of repetitious, I also find it a bit repetitious to have Danny get hit by an ice spear. I thought you were going to mention that one too.

    The only person we know of that line would be Gendry (given all the purges of Roberts bastards in the first few seasons). Sure, he's a bastard without any renown but so was Jon Snow and I like the idea of it subverting expectations but still making sense.
    That's actually brilliant! It's so obvious yet it didn't occur to me at all. It has been build up subtly enough too. hmm yup, Gendry on the throne is perfect.

    As to Cersei's involvement - I like that she's taking some more direct action to clean up her opposition after the battle but I can't for the life of me, justify her actually spending all that time to trek up to Winterfell personally. It'd sort of be beneath her and out of character for her to actually show up there, but I know she kind of has to in order to resolve the story without having to spend more time going down to King's Landing! Perhaps you could have it that the Iron Bank of Braavos do something since the Lannisters have racked up a debt even though it was magically paid off in season 7. It could be tied into the Golden Company is actually under the employ of the Iron Bank (as I believe it often is in the books) and them turning on Cersei in King's Landing and holding her prisoner or something because they don't trust her leadership or her ability to pay off future loans. Also, it would be interesting if the writing took the harder and braver choice to actually have Cersei live at the end since that would subvert expectations that she has to die for all her crimes.
    I guess the idea was that she would want to be present at the time of her victory to gloat and what not but yeah... it is forced. Originally, I had an undeveloped idea where the battle of Winterfell fails and they retreat to King's Landing. Cersei doesn't want to let them in but gets betrayed by the Iron bank/golden company because her debt was not actually paid or something like that. I could re-explore this but I'd have to rewrite a lot of stuff. Otherwise, she really needs to be at Winterfell somehow. I have mixed feelings about her just being a prisoner because I want one last conflict between Cersei/Jamie/Tyrion and I don't know how it could happen if she's a prisoner.

    I like the idea of having Bran be more active in general and using his warging abilities more - especially with the dragons. Not so sure about the bit about him being wounded by Euron and warging into Theon though. Why would Euron harm/target Bran? Or somehow harm him before making sure Yara and Theon are dealt with first? I can imagine Yarra taking a killing blow so that Theon can then use that distraction to land one of his own on Euron, but I can't figure out how Bran would be injured so severely in this fight that he would then have to warg into Theon.
    The way I was imagining it, Euron isn't alone. He arrives with a bunch of Cersei's thugs. The thugs are here for Bran so Euron doesn't necessarily care about Bran but he's still part of a group that wants the kid dead. That's why Bran gets injured. In retrospect, I'm not sure if I'd keep it. It's probably better if Euron kills Yarra -> Theon avenges her -> Theon escapes with Bran.

    Lastly, Bron still ending up as Master of Coin? That's gotta be a joke. He's the most irresponsible person to be in such a position. Sure, he's Lord of Highgarden but it's not clear how wealthy that position can still be given that most of Highgarden's wealth was used to pay off the Iron Throne's debt and any left would've been tied to the family/relatives of the Tyrells.
    I have to admit that it's the one dumb thing that I actually liked from the show even though it is really dumb.. What can I say, I like Bron But yeah, I guess it should be cut. Him getting Highgarden is good enough honestly.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Yeah you're right it's a bit too much to have both revelations like this. I can cut the Tyrion = Targaryen.

    I get that it's still repetitious for him to be the cause of the mad king but I need to have him use his time travel power again (because why wouldn't he?) while also giving him a reason not to do it. Him going to the past to try to change the Mad King only to end up failing anchors the idea that it's useless to time travel. It keeps this god like power in check. I think in the show the reason is just that he doesn't control when he can travel to the past which I find too easy.
    Yeah, it kinda depends on whether you still want to end up with Tyrion on the Iron Throne I suppose. Both revelations are tied to or lead into one another though, so if you remove the Tyrion = Targaryon, then do we really need the Bran being the cause of the Mad King's madness?

    Also, upon thinking on this more, Bran (he identifies himself as the 3-eyed Raven now afterall) should be more aware of his capabilities now what with the causal loop he created with Hodor earlier on. I think the fact that he is responsible for the creation and ultimate death of his most loyal companion, Hodor (poor, poor Hodor) sells the fact that this form of "time travel" is useless/pointless and the transitioning of him becoming the wiser 3-Eyed Raven. "Bran" would know that any attempts to reshape the past will all just lead to the current present, so he wouldn't really try this again anyway.

    Another thing to note/chew on is this theory that Bran, or rather the 3-eyed Raven, is the one true threat/villain (and no, not the Night King!) who has been manipulating things all for its benefit (much like how I suspect Ouros in Sc2 is doing) and becoming King of the Iron Throne is part of its plan to destroy humanity. Afterall, the white-walkers and Night King were created by the Children of the Forest, of which the 3-eyed Raven is part of, and they made them expressly to kill humans because they were losing against them in ages past. In the series 8 we did get, Bran does give off some ominous vibes and doesn't give much away. He states he is no longer Bran and even suggests at the end that he knew he was going to be King because he says something along the lines of "why else would he be here" at that meeting in the final episode.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    I'm not sure I'm willing to have him die though I see your point. It would be very GoT for him to die but at the same time it doesn't feel right. Jamie could save him in time. Then again, that would feel forced as well. Not sure what I prefer.
    Maybe not die but suffer a grievous injury perhaps? One that would have a lasting and severe consequence at least (unlike the "disfiguring" scar - which is worse in the books and makes him really ugly apparently - he got in Season 2 at Black water). It'd help sell the "all bets are off and that anyone can die" shtick the show kinda lost in the last third of GoT's seasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Speaking of repetitious, I also find it a bit repetitious to have Danny get hit by an ice spear. I thought you were going to mention that one too.
    Nah, there's no problem with this one. It maybe repetitious to us viewers but in terms of verisimilitude, it was proven effective against dragons, so why wouldn't they continue to keep using them?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Originally, I had an undeveloped idea where the battle of Winterfell fails and they retreat to King's Landing. Cersei doesn't want to let them in but gets betrayed by the Iron bank/golden company because her debt was not actually paid or something like that. I could re-explore this but I'd have to rewrite a lot of stuff. Otherwise, she really needs to be at Winterfell somehow. I have mixed feelings about her just being a prisoner because I want one last conflict between Cersei/Jamie/Tyrion and I don't know how it could happen if she's a prisoner.
    Wow, that's a long retreat! What with the butchery of distance and travel times in the later seasons (season 7 was most egregious), I suppose you can do it this way.

    Like I said before, I actually wouldn't mind Cersei actually surviving and not having any part of the final battle with the White Walkers. Afterall, the focus on your series is restricted to Winterfell/the North, so to cram in Cersei just to resolve a plot, however important it is, would reek of artifice. And yeah, I get that it's cathartic to have Jaime serving that justice upon Cersei but it seems kind of in-keeping with the fantasy tropes that GoT was all about subverting (and that later seasons of GoT were undoing the work they established in the beginning/reverting to cliched tropes...). I know it'd be very anticlimactic to have Cersei dealt with off-stage but then again the focus is on Winterfell and King's Landing, Cersei's domain, is far away. It's a tricky one.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    The thugs are here for Bran so Euron doesn't necessarily care about Bran but he's still part of a group that wants the kid dead.
    Woah, so Yara and Theon take on a team of Lannister/Greyjoy goons (loyal to Euron) and Euron? I'm assuming there's some Stark loyal troops to back Yara and Theon up, I suppose. But then again, you'd think that Bran would be more protected (being a Stark and all) if that was the case.
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  6. #16

    Default Re: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

    Also, upon thinking on this more, Bran (he identifies himself as the 3-eyed Raven now afterall) should be more aware of his capabilities now what with the causal loop he created with Hodor earlier on. I think the fact that he is responsible for the creation and ultimate death of his most loyal companion, Hodor (poor, poor Hodor) sells the fact that this form of "time travel" is useless/pointless and the transitioning of him becoming the wiser 3-Eyed Raven. "Bran" would know that any attempts to reshape the past will all just lead to the current present, so he wouldn't really try this again anyway.
    That is true but at the same time I feel like it wasn't properly hammered-in to the audience and I want to give him something to do with the past. I think it's important that he at least goes back in time once more . He doesn't have to warg into anyone or try to change anything but he should do "something" with that power again. I guess if I'd try to rationalize why I feel like he should do it again; the reason is that time travel would be too much like a random plot device rather than something that's actually part of the universe. In the real season 8, we can assume that he used the power off-screen to plan his moves but in this fanfic version, if he doesn't do it like I said then he needs to do something else with it.

    Another thing to note/chew on is this theory that Bran, or rather the 3-eyed Raven, is the one true threat/villain (and no, not the Night King!) who has been manipulating things all for its benefit (much like how I suspect Ouros in Sc2 is doing) and becoming King of the Iron Throne is part of its plan to destroy humanity. Afterall, the white-walkers and Night King were created by the Children of the Forest, of which the 3-eyed Raven is part of, and they made them expressly to kill humans because they were losing against them in ages past. In the series 8 we did get, Bran does give off some ominous vibes and doesn't give much away. He states he is no longer Bran and even suggests at the end that he knew he was going to be King because he says something along the lines of "why else would he be here" at that meeting in the final episode.
    The other purpose of this plot with the bran/mad king was so that I can avoid having him be the master villain. If he's not the master villain, then he needs to be more humanized than how he was previously portrayed. Admittedly, it was a bit shoehorned to try and give him a bit of humanity but I think it can be believable.

    As I'm writing this, I just came up with a possible alternative that could fix a lot problems. Kinda tie back in with my original light lord Jesus idea but meh. Not sure yet if it can all fit into 6 episodes or if it actually makes sense yet but:

    -There was 2 faction of children of the forest. One led by the 3ER that wanted to enslave humanity through warging an what not. The light lord is the god of the 3ER faction. The other faction, created a form of human (the WW) that are immune to warging.
    -The night king is after Bran because it's the 3ER.
    -The 3ER wants the night king dead so he can enslave everyone. To enslave everyone, he wants to be the new king of the 7 kingdoms.
    -Underneath the tree at winterfell, there's a children of the forest seed or something that could make them come back.
    -The 4d chess plan is for jon to kill Danny (hence the prophecy) and then for jon to be controlled by the 3er or something.
    -Defense of winterfell fails. Bran escapes with the seed. Everyone else retreats to kings landing
    -Cersei is betrayed by the golden company so Jon and co goes inside king landing.
    -There's a coup to kill danny initiated by sansa that fails and danny, in revenge, wants to kill sansa. Jon either A. kill danny or B. is stopped in time by someone that knows of Bran's plan
    -A. Jon defeats the night king and then Bran takes control of everything
    -B. Jon go kill Bran. The night king returns north or is also defeated or something. (I'd prefer something like that personally)

    Anyways, that would need more work but I think I got something there.

    Wow, that's a long retreat! What with the butchery of distance and travel times in the later seasons (season 7 was most egregious), I suppose you can do it this way.
    The way I see it, they escape to white harbor and board ships from there. I think time scale wise, I can make it work in a logical manner.

    Like I said before, I actually wouldn't mind Cersei actually surviving and not having any part of the final battle with the White Walkers. Afterall, the focus on your series is restricted to Winterfell/the North, so to cram in Cersei just to resolve a plot, however important it is, would reek of artifice. And yeah, I get that it's cathartic to have Jaime serving that justice upon Cersei but it seems kind of in-keeping with the fantasy tropes that GoT was all about subverting (and that later seasons of GoT were undoing the work they established in the beginning/reverting to cliched tropes...). I know it'd be very anticlimactic to have Cersei dealt with off-stage but then again the focus is on Winterfell and King's Landing, Cersei's domain, is far away. It's a tricky one.
    I thought about it and I think the best thing would be to compound all possible explanations for her to be there. So

    1. Going in person would be her way to demonstrate that she is like her father. Her father was very much commanding the troops on the field so she'd want to take things in her own hands in the same way.
    2. She wants to gloat
    3. The golden company only agreed to serving her assuming that winterfell would be easy to win. They insist on her coming along because if it turns out to be false, they"ll kill her.

    If it's all properly contextualized, I think it can work personally.

    As for her surviving, ugh... I guess she doesn't have to die if you rearrange the events and she's saved by Jamie. That's the only way it can be made acceptable to the audience I think and even then..

    Woah, so Yara and Theon take on a team of Lannister/Greyjoy goons (loyal to Euron) and Euron? I'm assuming there's some Stark loyal troops to back Yara and Theon up, I suppose. But then again, you'd think that Bran would be more protected (being a Stark and all) if that was the case.
    Yeah some Starks loyalists + Bran could help in the fight by warging in and out and stuff. That could be interesting to watch actually.

  7. #17

    Default Re: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    That is true but at the same time I feel like it wasn't properly hammered-in to the audience and I want to give him something to do with the past.
    I dunno. I think the value of Bran's visions/visits to the past is in knowing/seeing things that are not known to anyone and using that information in the now, not that he has actual agency/action over or in the past. Otherwise, it opens itself up to time travel shenanigans and gimmickry that takes the focus away from the real crux of the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    The other purpose of this plot with the bran/mad king was so that I can avoid having him be the master villain. If he's not the master villain, then he needs to be more humanized than how he was previously portrayed. Admittedly, it was a bit shoehorned to try and give him a bit of humanity but I think it can be believable.
    I thought the point of becoming the 3ER was that Bran was having to become less human as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    As I'm writing this, I just came up with a possible alternative that could fix a lot problems.
    You know, I actually like the idea of Winterfell falling since it sells the threat of the WW but it's also a convenient excuse for us to get back to King's Landing. Still, the distance and time required to get there is still a problem technically even though this was kinda waved off in the later seasons and the undead don't exactly get tired...

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    1. Going in person would be her way to demonstrate that she is like her father. Her father was very much commanding the troops on the field so she'd want to take things in her own hands in the same way.
    This doesn't sound like Cersei though nor what her character would do and I don't think Cersei really looked up to nor wanted to emulate Tywin.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    2. She wants to gloat
    That's a lampshade excuse to hide giving her the idiot ball.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    3. The golden company only agreed to serving her assuming that winterfell would be easy to win. They insist on her coming along because if it turns out to be false, they"ll kill her.
    The Golden Company are mercenaries and have no stake, power or motivation beyond being paid to do whatever job they've been paid for. I could imagine the Iron Bank having control of the Golden Company - paying them to pretend being bought by Cersei's - and then playing their hand in King's Landing, but I still can't fathom why they'd then force her to Winterfell without it being gimmicky/just for the sake of resolving that Tyrion/Jamie/Cersei plot with a nice little bow.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    As for her surviving, ugh... I guess she doesn't have to die if you rearrange the events and she's saved by Jamie. That's the only way it can be made acceptable to the audience I think and even then..
    Or it could be that the plot is resolved with Cersei killing Jamie.... How's that for both a subversion and being downright depressing at the same time!? I mean, it's supposed to be GoT, amirite?
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  8. #18

    Default Re: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

    I dunno. I think the value of Bran's visions/visits to the past is in knowing/seeing things that are not known to anyone and using that information in the now, not that he has actual agency/action over or in the past. Otherwise, it opens itself up to time travel shenanigans and gimmickry that takes the focus away from the real crux of the story.
    I agree that it takes the focus away but they opened that door already, so it's a balancing act

    I thought the point of becoming the 3ER was that Bran was having to become less human as well.
    Which I didn't like because the 3ER motivations aren't explained. We're just left to assume that he's a selfish power seeking (for the sake of power) baddie. By giving back humanity to Bran, you lessen the need to explain the 3ER. On the other hand, if Bran is truly only the 3ER, it's unsatisfying to make him take the throne and 'win' without explaining anything. Even if he didn't win, I wouldn't leave a major character unexplained.

    This doesn't sound like Cersei though nor what her character would do and I don't think Cersei really looked up to nor wanted to emulate Tywin.
    IIRC, there's very clear references to this at multiple points (though I might be thinking of the books, not sure). I'll have to go dig it up. Though I guess if it's not obvious enough that you yourself don't remember it (assuming there is something to remember ) then it would be harder to sell.


    That's a lampshade excuse to hide giving her the idiot ball.
    No you see huhh.... well, yes it is Hey, Littlefinger was at the battle of the bastards (looking cool in the wind and all) sooo I can do it too!

    The Golden Company are mercenaries and have no stake, power or motivation beyond being paid to do whatever job they've been paid for. I could imagine the Iron Bank having control of the Golden Company - paying them to pretend being bought by Cersei's - and then playing their hand in King's Landing, but I still can't fathom why they'd then force her to Winterfell without it being gimmicky/just for the sake of resolving that Tyrion/Jamie/Cersei plot with a nice little bow.
    was poorly explained on my part. What I meant was->

    Cersei: I can pay you guys a crap load if you help me take Winterfell.
    Golden Company: k but we have a lot to risk on the possibility that you honor your words
    Cersei: nah, it's going to be easy no worries. I'd bet it on my life
    Golden Company: We'll take you on that. If we go there and it's hard, we kill you. Otherwise, we have a deal.

    Or it could be that the plot is resolved with Cersei killing Jamie.... How's that for both a subversion and being downright depressing at the same time!? I mean, it's supposed to be GoT, amirite?
    Jesus man! Cersei wins, everyone you liked is dead but hey, the war is over, yay? The fans would lose their minds XD

  9. #19

    Default Re: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    I agree that it takes the focus away but they opened that door already, so it's a balancing act
    Eh, if Bran could do anything in the past, why can't he just go further back and stop the Night King from being created? I've heard of this as being part of even more wackier time travel shenanigans to explain the "Bran is Night King" theory - that he warged into the human that got turned into the Night King and got stuck there, being forced to reenact everything up to that point and subtly guiding the Night King to its present actions to create a closed time loop. Sure, these theories are fun but they're distracting and too sci-fi for GoT.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Which I didn't like because the 3ER motivations aren't explained. We're just left to assume that he's a selfish power seeking (for the sake of power) baddie. By giving back humanity to Bran, you lessen the need to explain the 3ER. On the other hand, if Bran is truly only the 3ER, it's unsatisfying to make him take the throne and 'win' without explaining anything. Even if he didn't win, I wouldn't leave a major character unexplained.
    Agreed. They really crapped out on explaining just what exactly the 3ER is about. I was hoping for some more exploration of its nature along with more history of the White Walkers. All we get is some vague description of it a being a memory repository of the world and that that's important for... reasons. Oh and also so that Tyrion can have a speech at the end about it somehow making a good story to justify Bran's choice as King because stories and memories are cool/worth it... or something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    IIRC, there's very clear references to this at multiple points (though I might be thinking of the books, not sure). I'll have to go dig it up. Though I guess if it's not obvious enough that you yourself don't remember it (assuming there is something to remember ) then it would be harder to sell.
    I think it's more that she thinks of herself as a female version of Tywin and feels entitled to have power and command over others, not that she's like him or wants to be like him.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Hey, Littlefinger was at the battle of the bastards (looking cool in the wind and all) sooo I can do it too!
    That was probably more about staying by Sansa's side so he could continue to "advise"/manipulate/keep his claws in her than going along just to gloat.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Golden Company: k but we have a lot to risk on the possibility that you honor your words

    Golden Company: We'll take you on that. If we go there and it's hard, we kill you. Otherwise, we have a deal.
    What kind of crappy mercenary group accepts a task without payment first? They're the ones risking life and limb afterall and they're not exactly begging for money, so they shouldn't be beholden to any of their customers nor be on the more riskier end of such a deal. This is not even mentioning that it's tactically bad since they have to spend some of their army protecting Cersei, instead of fighting their employers enemies, lest their meal ticket gets killed. Besides, what does "killing her if things go bad" accomplish? It just means that they won't get paid even more and copping heat/bad PR for killing royalty. Lastly, Cersei would never put herself in such a dire situation where she could be potentially harmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Jesus man! Cersei wins, everyone you liked is dead but hey, the war is over, yay? The fans would lose their minds XD
    Well, the Night King can still comeback in your version, so it'll balance out in the end. Death for everyone!
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  10. #20

    Default Re: Game of Thrones' writing is so bad now...

    Oh and also so that Tyrion can have a speech at the end about it somehow making a good story to justify Bran's choice as King because stories and memories are cool/worth it... or something like that.
    That pit scene...despite the strong competition, it's probably my no1 most hated moment of S8

    I think it's more that she thinks of herself as a female version of Tywin and feels entitled to have power and command over others, not that she's like him or wants to be like him.
    hmmm fair enough

    That was probably more about staying by Sansa's side so he could continue to "advise"/manipulate/keep his claws in her than going along just to gloat.
    I meant that neither of them should have been present at that moment on the battlefield technically. They of course had reasons to be there afterward that Cersei does not.

    What kind of crappy mercenary group accepts a task without payment first? They're the ones risking life and limb afterall and they're not exactly begging for money, so they shouldn't be beholden to any of their customers nor be on the more riskier end of such a deal. This is not even mentioning that it's tactically bad since they have to spend some of their army protecting Cersei, instead of fighting their employers enemies, lest their meal ticket gets killed. Besides, what does "killing her if things go bad" accomplish? It just means that they won't get paid even more and copping heat/bad PR for killing royalty. Lastly, Cersei would never put herself in such a dire situation where she could be potentially harmed.
    If Cersei wins the war, they would have contracts for years to come and they would only commit IF it was easy. If it isn't, they kill Cersei and walk away. Or, they don't kill her and walk away anyways. If she's willing to go all the way there, it should be a good proof that she's not lying and she's confident. Cersei is not putting herself at risk in her mind because she assumes an easy victory.

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