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Thread: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

  1. #61

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Originally the zerg needed powerful psychics to counter the protoss, but as the plotholes and retcons accumulated this became irrelevant. In the most recent iteration of lore this plot point makes no sense, since the zerg never needed terran psychics to defeat the wimpy dying protoss.

    I doubt it is possible to determine what the writers wanted since they changed their minds so often and could not keep track of their own writing. The lore is an irrational mess and I made peace with that fact long ago. Now I just pick a set of consistent rules and force everything else to conform.
    That changing minds happened more in the case for the SC2 lore. We could easily see that just from the HotS storyline.

    As for the need for terran psychics, that's because the Overmind didn't know the Conclave refused to change their ways. Zeratul made to clear to Aldaris that the Conclave's actions were only helping the Overmind.

  2. #62

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    That changing minds happened more in the case for the SC2 lore. We could easily see that just from the HotS storyline.
    No, it has been present since the beginning. The 1996 website had a dramatically different pitch, th 1998 website included details never referenced again, the manual has a few internal contradictions, and the SC1 game dramatically diverges from the manual in key plot points. The BW website included a noticeably different pitch for the plot and interviews mentioned that at one point the zerg were intended to invade Earth but this was scrapped.

    The writers have always changed their minds. The SC1 manual has the least internal contradictions of any source, but it still has a few. In fact, there are two drafts of the manual floating on the internet with slightly different statistics for some units like wraiths and defilers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    As for the need for terran psychics, that's because the Overmind didn't know the Conclave refused to change their ways. Zeratul made to clear to Aldaris that the Conclave's actions were only helping the Overmind.
    Those facts are unrelated.

    As of the first game, the zerg were searching for Aiur and got lost in Koprulu because plot contrivance. There was no reason they could not steamroll the protoss. They never needed psychics because that plot point was dropped by the writer. You can tell because Kerry Sue was intended to fight undefined "enemies" then was assigned to fight the dark templar instead even though they were not the enemies she was intended to fight since the zerg did not know the dark templar existed when the zerg infested her. The writer was clearly making this up on the fly without planning any arc beforehand.

    The Conclave's actions made no difference because the zerg were too powerful either way. They only won because of a plot contrivance and one that was immediately invalidated in the very next campaign.

    The plot contrives to make the Conclave into idiotic villains because the writer could not handle moral ambiguity. In the manual, the backstory explains that the rogues nearly destroyed their home planet so the Conclave's fears of them are justified.

    Think about it from a rational perspective. The dark templar have not destroyed themselves, so that implies they have learned to control these storms. Would it not make sense they would want revenge on the Empire for exiling them?

    The only stupid decision the Conclave made was sending the Executor to retrieve Tassadar on Char. There was absolutely no reason to do that since Tassadar sounded like a raving lunatic (he claims only dark templar can kill cerebrates), wanted them to come anyway, and the Executor was a friend of Tassadar who might believe him. It was forced by the plot being the writer could not come up with an elegant way to insert the terrans into the campaign because the writer had previously wrapped up the Koprulu sector arc even though the premise of the game was the three races fighting over Koprulu.

    It is pointless for us to keep arguing. The canon is an irrational mess that no amount of arguing can ever explain. It is vastly more constructive for me to write a rational fixit alternate universe fanfiction which addresses all the problems I have with the lore.

    If you want something to argue about, pick a universe with consistent rules that allows the audience to make predictions about what can happen.

  3. #63

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The problem is that the authors writing the fiction seemingly forgot this and treated the psi-emitter as a generic zerg terrorism device.
    I'm not sure if you can really say that conclusively because what we see and know of the psi-emitter as being a generic terrorism device is limited/filtered through the Terran perspective, and a particular Terran at that (Mengsk). The psi emitter is just an object on its own but it's how the characters perceive it and react to it that makes it an effective plot device beyond just rote narrative utility. Contrast this with the crystals/temple and the psi-disruptor in BW, where those two plot devices serve nothing more to the story beyond their actual utility and how the characters don't really develop beyond merely using/accessing the plot device.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That is more complicated than the zerg being unconcerned about their numbers. The zerg may not be aware that the protoss fought an Aeon of Strife which decimated their civilization, but they are aware that the protoss are powerful and could wipe the floor with them. Throwing zerg at the protoss fleet would accomplish nothing and only alert the protoss to their intelligence, but studying their tactics might give the zerg insight into avoiding their destruction before they can weaponize the determinant. Right now their strategy has shifted from solely harvesting humanity to avoiding destruction by the protoss before the harvest yields fruit.
    But the Zerg did exactly as you said above in the manual at Chau Sara - and can be surmised to be continuing doing so throughout the start of the Sc campaign. Are you saying that the Zerg/Overmind didn't know what they were doing in their initial forays with the Terrans or purposefully trying to expose themselves by constantly going after leads that could lead to its determinant? Do you think that the Overmind didn't know what it was doing and the consequences of allowing its Zerg to go after those Psi-emitter signals before doing so? Besides, how else is the Overmind going to find its determinant without sending out raiding parties when leads show up and risk Protoss being alerted to them at the same time?

    The Zerg are only ever "exposed" once they start incorporating Kerrigan into the Swarm. Before then, it wasn't clear where they were, how strong they were or if they were ever going to make themselves openly and wholly known at all, so they had the advantage of initiative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Sure, but as I have said before the narrative contrives to place the three on roughly equal footing in the Koprulu context.

    I don't think the terrans could survive a prolonged conflict without allying with the protoss.
    These statements don't really gel. I can't tell whether you really consider each race to be equal with the others or not. Sure you can have factional Terran and Protoss alliances but this doesn't resolve the issue that the Terrans as a whole are not equal to the Zerg (or Protoss) as a whole. Also, according to you the Zerg are not equal to the Protoss without the determinant, which makes your claim of them all being "equal" from the start confusing. What happens when the Zerg do get their determinant? Will they be more powerful than the Protoss assuming they were "roughly equal" from the start or will they then only be equal to the Protoss with the determinant as the Overmind intends it to be (which suggests they weren't equal to begin with...)? Will the Terrans become unequal with the Zerg when they get their determinant or even more unequal than initially, given that the Terrans are comparatively weaker than the others from the get-go? Sustaining a status quo that all 3 being viable and "equal" over a lengthy period of time of conflict wouldn't be "realistic" when the 3 aren't really "equal" to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    They need to have objectives and logistics that make sense from their own perspective.
    But they did have this in Sc1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    In the limited context of the Koprulu conflict, their local presence is roughly equivalent when we do not include super weapons and so forth unaccounted for in gameplay.
    That's super vague. What do you mean by "local presence"? What metric do you use to gauge such equivalence? Does this factor in actual capability and efficiency of the use of armed forces for each race?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The way Blizzard did things, there was no real distinction.
    Really? Sc1 could've easily been a "one and done"/ended without continuation. Sure, there was sequel bait but most of the broad plots and themes it setup were hit upon and resolved adequately (whether it was satisfactory is a subjective matter). The manual is just a set up and not necessarily reflecting that it is the status quo forevermore.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  4. #64

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    No, it has been present since the beginning. The 1996 website had a dramatically different pitch, th 1998 website included details never referenced again, the manual has a few internal contradictions, and the SC1 game dramatically diverges from the manual in key plot points. The BW website included a noticeably different pitch for the plot and interviews mentioned that at one point the zerg were intended to invade Earth but this was scrapped.

    The writers have always changed their minds. The SC1 manual has the least internal contradictions of any source, but it still has a few. In fact, there are two drafts of the manual floating on the internet with slightly different statistics for some units like wraiths and defilers.
    Well no one here is saying the SC1 lore was flawless, it's just that the SC2 lore you could see the inconsistency problems much quicker, even for those who knew NOTHING of the SC universe.

    And as for the whole arguing point, you're the one who feels the whole SC universe lore since day 1 was total BS. I may not be as critical to the SC2 lore as others, but still

  5. #65

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    I do not have any good answers for you.

  6. #66

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I do not have any good answers for you.
    And much of what I read from you basically just comes down to the same thing: that you feel the SC lore since day 1 was so crappy the writers should be locked in the insane asylum. Know this: no matter what kind of SC fic YOU write, there's bound to be those who will still insist you were inconsistent.

  7. #67

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    And much of what I read from you basically just comes down to the same thing: that you feel the SC lore since day 1 was so crappy the writers should be locked in the insane asylum. Know this: no matter what kind of SC fic YOU write, there's bound to be those who will still insist you were inconsistent.
    If that is supposed to intimidate me, it does not. I am a perfectionist and I constantly doubt myself because of that. I have noticed inconsistencies in my own work before and I have constantly made minor edits to past work for the sake of consistency or avoiding writing myself into a corner.

    I doubt anyone can write a work of fiction without inconsistencies. That's why publishers hire editors and why fanfic writers contact beta-readers.

    I get that you are butthurt because I criticized StarCraft for being badly written. You need to get over it and recognize that video games generally have crappy stories and video game writers are mostly untalented, unskilled hacks. Even video games with generally decent writing may have extreme flaws in other areas, especially if multiple writers were involved and the writers invoke complex concepts they have no real understanding of.

  8. #68

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    If that is supposed to intimidate me, it does not. I am a perfectionist and I constantly doubt myself because of that. I have noticed inconsistencies in my own work before and I have constantly made minor edits to past work for the sake of consistency or avoiding writing myself into a corner.

    I doubt anyone can write a work of fiction without inconsistencies. That's why publishers hire editors and why fanfic writers contact beta-readers.

    I get that you are butthurt because I criticized StarCraft for being badly written. You need to get over it and recognize that video games generally have crappy stories and video game writers are mostly untalented, unskilled hacks. Even video games with generally decent writing may have extreme flaws in other areas, especially if multiple writers were involved and the writers invoke complex concepts they have no real understanding of.
    I wasn't trying to intimidate you, I'm merely saying you'll never achieve a perfect fic goal because there will always be critics. And as for the whole perfectionist mentality, there will be times this backfires on you.

    For the whole games have crap stories, that's your view. Me, I mostly accept them for what they are. Though ironically enough, I DID criticize the Doom game a lore more when it came out all the way back in 2016 because I felt you spent the whole 10 hours doing nothing but rip and tear and there was virtually no story AT ALL

  9. #69

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I'm not sure if you can really say that conclusively because what we see and know of the psi-emitter as being a generic terrorism device is limited/filtered through the Terran perspective, and a particular Terran at that (Mengsk). The psi emitter is just an object on its own but it's how the characters perceive it and react to it that makes it an effective plot device beyond just rote narrative utility. Contrast this with the crystals/temple and the psi-disruptor in BW, where those two plot devices serve nothing more to the story beyond their actual utility and how the characters don't really develop beyond merely using/accessing the plot device.



    But the Zerg did exactly as you said above in the manual at Chau Sara - and can be surmised to be continuing doing so throughout the start of the Sc campaign. Are you saying that the Zerg/Overmind didn't know what they were doing in their initial forays with the Terrans or purposefully trying to expose themselves by constantly going after leads that could lead to its determinant? Do you think that the Overmind didn't know what it was doing and the consequences of allowing its Zerg to go after those Psi-emitter signals before doing so? Besides, how else is the Overmind going to find its determinant without sending out raiding parties when leads show up and risk Protoss being alerted to them at the same time?

    The Zerg are only ever "exposed" once they start incorporating Kerrigan into the Swarm. Before then, it wasn't clear where they were, how strong they were or if they were ever going to make themselves openly and wholly known at all, so they had the advantage of initiative.



    These statements don't really gel. I can't tell whether you really consider each race to be equal with the others or not. Sure you can have factional Terran and Protoss alliances but this doesn't resolve the issue that the Terrans as a whole are not equal to the Zerg (or Protoss) as a whole. Also, according to you the Zerg are not equal to the Protoss without the determinant, which makes your claim of them all being "equal" from the start confusing. What happens when the Zerg do get their determinant? Will they be more powerful than the Protoss assuming they were "roughly equal" from the start or will they then only be equal to the Protoss with the determinant as the Overmind intends it to be (which suggests they weren't equal to begin with...)? Will the Terrans become unequal with the Zerg when they get their determinant or even more unequal than initially, given that the Terrans are comparatively weaker than the others from the get-go? Sustaining a status quo that all 3 being viable and "equal" over a lengthy period of time of conflict wouldn't be "realistic" when the 3 aren't really "equal" to begin with.



    But they did have this in Sc1.



    That's super vague. What do you mean by "local presence"? What metric do you use to gauge such equivalence? Does this factor in actual capability and efficiency of the use of armed forces for each race?



    Really? Sc1 could've easily been a "one and done"/ended without continuation. Sure, there was sequel bait but most of the broad plots and themes it setup were hit upon and resolved adequately (whether it was satisfactory is a subjective matter). The manual is just a set up and not necessarily reflecting that it is the status quo forevermore.
    At this point, I decided to go with the zerg sent forces to attack Confederate beacons for multiple reasons. 1) the Confederates are trying to lure zerg but are unprepared for the volume that arrives so their forces are lost, 2) prevents the terrans from realizing the zerg are really intelligent, 3) dissuades the terrans from using beacons (they distract zerg psychic detectors), etc
    Last edited by Mislagnissa; 09-04-2018 at 03:55 PM.

  10. #70

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    At this point, I decided to go with the zerg sent forces to attack Confederate beacons for multiple reasons. 1) the Confederates are trying to lure zerg but are unprepared for the volume that arrives so their forces are lost, 2) prevents the terrans from realizing the zerg are really intelligent, 3) dissuades the terrans from using beacons (they distract zerg psychic detectors), etc
    It was said after the SoK discovered the emitters that the Confederacy did this to rid of their enemies, and to look like heroes for killing the zerg. As far as I know, the Confederacy never really saw the zerg as anything but mindless animals.

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