Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 74

Thread: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

  1. #51

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    I still haven't read the Speed of Darkness book, I wouldn't know.

    The psi-emitter was an experimental Confederate project. It's not like they knew just how much zerg it'd REALLY end up attracting. The main problem was when it was used at Tarsonis. You'd think there'd have to be a lot more zerg in the sector for it to work, not for them to be so far away and such.
    Precisely. There are not enough zerg in the sector and they are too spread out. Not only that, but the zerg are already fighting elsewhere. They cannot devote many resources to investigating the beacon, especially when all they know is that they can sense a single mind across interstellar distances.

    Metzen fudged the plot to force it in the direction he wanted, even though that was a bad direction.

  2. #52

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Precisely. There are not enough zerg in the sector and they are too spread out. Not only that, but the zerg are already fighting elsewhere. They cannot devote many resources to investigating the beacon, especially when all they know is that they can sense a single mind across interstellar distances.

    Metzen fudged the plot to force it in the direction he wanted, even though that was a bad direction.
    That depended on just how much resources the zerg had in the first place.

  3. #53

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Seems like you're implying that any story that uses plot device is "bad". You do realise that every story in existence runs on plot device/artifice/conceit, right? The Psi emitter's function and role in moving the plot is somewhat secondary to its importance in bringing about character development (ie: Mengsk's resolve in seeing his mission through and his growing egomania, Kerrigan's questioning about the lengths that they're resorting to) - which is what most people find more memorable than what it actually does. This is how plot devices are used effectively - to balance or override the obvious nature of it just moving a plot along. Contrast this with the use of the Psi Disruptor plot device, where it's purely used to mechanically move the plot and the characters into specific positions and situations.
    I did not say the psi-emitter was inherently bad. The bad comes from Metzen ignoring the implications of logistics because he wanted to conclude the Koprulu war in the first act rather than use it as the backdrop for the entire game. The zerg are both intelligent and have limited numbers, so this affects when and how they investigate beacons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I highly doubt that. Even were it not for the game to demonstrate it (the Confeds - the mightiest Terran faction at the time - can barely control or resist them even when they know the most about them), the manual clearly pits the Terrans as being weak and defenceless against the Zerg.
    The zerg sent a scouting force, as evidenced by the tiny broods. The presence of the protoss throws a wrench into that. An alliance between the Umojans and Akilae was teased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I've always taken the Zerg "attraction" to the Psi Emitter as being tied to the Overminds motivation in finding a Terran psionic - as in they are not mindlessly compelled but that it is a wilful response/reaction of the Overmind chasing down a lead. As to whether the Zerg forces sent to "overwhelm a planet" is meant to be taken literally, I just consider that the scope of Sc1 was actually pretty small and that what amounted to a "planet" was really just the colony on that planet.
    It does not make sense the Overmind would invest so much effort into chasing down a single psychic when there are millions of others they can detect.

    It feels to me like Metzen forgot why the zerg were there in the first place and he ended up treating them as a plot device rather than a side in a war in order to advance the plot in a direction he wanted regardless of whether it made sense in the larger context. Part of that may be due to the cinematics being made separately from the game script so he was forced to write around those, but that does not excuse the decisions he made since those cinematics are vague enough to mean a lot of different things.

    Reducing the scale does solve a lot of problems with the plot, since the writers clearly did not understand the scales involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    That depended on just how much resources the zerg had in the first place.
    The way the manual set up things up, the three races looked to be evenly matched. Metzen fudged this so that he could conclude the Koprulu war in the first act rather than use it as the backdrop for the entire series.

    Ironically, the conflict we got in canon takes place entirely in Koprulu sector (since Aiur was retconned to be in Koprulu) so in a roundabout way the games actually did focus entirely on the Koprulu war.

  4. #54

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I did not say the psi-emitter was inherently bad. The bad comes from Metzen ignoring the implications of logistics because he wanted to conclude the Koprulu war in the first act rather than use it as the backdrop for the entire game. The zerg are both intelligent and have limited numbers, so this affects when and how they investigate beacons.
    I'm unsure as to just how much the Overmind knew about the terrans. If nothing else I'd say he could have investigated for the sake of curiosity. But even then that wouldn't have drawn in that much zerg.

  5. #55

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    I'm unsure as to just how much the Overmind knew about the terrans. If nothing else I'd say he could have investigated for the sake of curiosity. But even then that wouldn't have drawn in that much zerg.
    The manual states that the Overmind sent a scouting brood to infest the dozen or so terran planets. Later lore, IIRC the game exposition slides, retconned the sector to an arbitrarily high number of worlds and those mentioned in the manual were the "core" worlds. The terminology is weird and inconsistent ("fringe" and "outer" are somehow different astrogeographical terms in the lore), but basically they were worlds of strategic value to the Confederacy and were located across their territory. Why a penal colony like Chau Sara would be considered a key world, much less have a population in the millions according to the most recent lore, is beyond me.

    In any event, the manual does not give any time table for this. The novel Uprising states that the Confederacy discovered the zerg presence in 2487 (over a decade before the Battle of Chau Sara) and somehow started an interstellar cholera epidemic to depopulate the fringe worlds so they could study the zerg in secret. This explanation is pretty absurd since by all rights something like that should be noticed by everyone in the sector as the largest humanitarian disaster in history, and I pointed out as much in my fanfiction.

    The Battle of Chau Sara itself is one of the vaguest and contradictory events in the lore. Despite being a core world, nobody noticed when the Confederacy quarantined the planet during the battle with the zerg. Why they were battling the zerg is unknown, since it was only after this that the zerg started mobilizing on the other worlds. The lore on the psi-emitter claims that the Confederacy started the battle by attracting too many zerg to Chau Sara or something, but again this ignores the problem of logistics I mentioned before. The Confederacy had been trying to breed and weaponize the zerg for years before the Battle, so it is entirely possible that the zerg made a pre-emptive strike against what they considered a threat. It does not really help that the logic of RTS games means that single missions might realistically cover days or weeks of in-universe time but the authors of the story, who are not military buffs, easily forget this and give ridiculously scales for absolutely everything.

    This is the sort of stuff I have to explain while writing my fanfiction.

  6. #56

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The manual states that the Overmind sent a scouting brood to infest the dozen or so terran planets. Later lore, IIRC the game exposition slides, retconned the sector to an arbitrarily high number of worlds and those mentioned in the manual were the "core" worlds. The terminology is weird and inconsistent ("fringe" and "outer" are somehow different astrogeographical terms in the lore), but basically they were worlds of strategic value to the Confederacy and were located across their territory. Why a penal colony like Chau Sara would be considered a key world, much less have a population in the millions according to the most recent lore, is beyond me.

    In any event, the manual does not give any time table for this. The novel Uprising states that the Confederacy discovered the zerg presence in 2487 (over a decade before the Battle of Chau Sara) and somehow started an interstellar cholera epidemic to depopulate the fringe worlds so they could study the zerg in secret. This explanation is pretty absurd since by all rights something like that should be noticed by everyone in the sector as the largest humanitarian disaster in history, and I pointed out as much in my fanfiction.

    The Battle of Chau Sara itself is one of the vaguest and contradictory events in the lore. Despite being a core world, nobody noticed when the Confederacy quarantined the planet during the battle with the zerg. Why they were battling the zerg is unknown, since it was only after this that the zerg started mobilizing on the other worlds. The lore on the psi-emitter claims that the Confederacy started the battle by attracting too many zerg to Chau Sara or something, but again this ignores the problem of logistics I mentioned before. The Confederacy had been trying to breed and weaponize the zerg for years before the Battle, so it is entirely possible that the zerg made a pre-emptive strike against what they considered a threat. It does not really help that the logic of RTS games means that single missions might realistically cover days or weeks of in-universe time but the authors of the story, who are not military buffs, easily forget this and give ridiculously scales for absolutely everything.

    This is the sort of stuff I have to explain while writing my fanfiction.
    A key world relative to who? You have to remember what is a fringe and crappy world to one person doesn't have to be to another.

  7. #57

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I did not say the psi-emitter was inherently bad. The bad comes from Metzen ignoring the implications of logistics because he wanted to conclude the Koprulu war in the first act rather than use it as the backdrop for the entire game. The zerg are both intelligent and have limited numbers, so this affects when and how they investigate beacons.
    How do you know that the Zerg being lured to the planets with Psi Emitters weren't actually a calculated risk/move that the Overmind was willing to take? The manual states the Overmind was more than willing to allow the Protoss to hamper its initial efforts in order to observe them, which doesn't sound like the Overmind was overly cautious about its limited numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The zerg sent a scouting force, as evidenced by the tiny broods.
    It's kinda relative though. The Terran numbers are not stated but since they consider the Zerg quite numerous, it's implied they are outmatched compared to the Zerg numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    An alliance between the Umojans and Akilae was teased.
    You're stretching mightily hard there. Besides, we're talking specifically about the Terran's capability of resisting the Zerg on their own here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    It does not make sense the Overmind would invest so much effort into chasing down a single psychic when there are millions of others they can detect.
    It would if it thought it was worth it. The Psi-Emitters do amplify the inherent signal of a Ghost afterall, so the Overmind could've thought that this singular strong human psychic presence that popped up was an easy get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    It feels to me like Metzen forgot why the zerg were there in the first place and he ended up treating them as a plot device rather than a side in a war in order to advance the plot in a direction he wanted regardless of whether it made sense in the larger context.
    Of course the Zerg are a plot device. They're the antagonists. So what? At least there's character to them and they're memorable through the Overmind. Compare this to BW where they truly are nothing more than a thing to be fought over, controlled or talked about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The way the manual set up things up, the three races looked to be evenly matched.
    But they're not really, in terms of lore, is it? You yourself have said that the Protoss are more powerful than the Zerg in all practical circumstances and I've said the Terrans have always been weaksauce compared to the other two, with the manual potentially backing these two things up. "Evenly matched" is only important for gameplay reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Metzen fudged this so that he could conclude the Koprulu war in the first act rather than use it as the backdrop for the entire series.
    "One and done" isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's no worse than "potentially ongoing".
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  8. #58

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    A key world relative to who? You have to remember what is a fringe and crappy world to one person doesn't have to be to another.
    As defined by the Confederacy. "Core world" is a term in the lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    How do you know that the Zerg being lured to the planets with Psi Emitters weren't actually a calculated risk/move that the Overmind was willing to take?
    Since the zerg were intelligent, invaded the sector specifically to harvest psychics, and were probably aware of the Confederacy's experiments through their telepathic communication network, by definition the forces investigating psi-emitter beacons were a calculated move. The problem is that the authors writing the fiction seemingly forgot this and treated the psi-emitter as a generic zerg terrorism device.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The manual states the Overmind was more than willing to allow the Protoss to hamper its initial efforts in order to observe them, which doesn't sound like the Overmind was overly cautious about its limited numbers.
    That is more complicated than the zerg being unconcerned about their numbers. The zerg may not be aware that the protoss fought an Aeon of Strife which decimated their civilization, but they are aware that the protoss are powerful and could wipe the floor with them. Throwing zerg at the protoss fleet would accomplish nothing and only alert the protoss to their intelligence, but studying their tactics might give the zerg insight into avoiding their destruction before they can weaponize the determinant. Right now their strategy has shifted from solely harvesting humanity to avoiding destruction by the protoss before the harvest yields fruit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It's kinda relative though. The Terran numbers are not stated but since they consider the Zerg quite numerous, it's implied they are outmatched compared to the Zerg numbers.
    Sure, but as I have said before the narrative contrives to place the three on roughly equal footing in the Koprulu context.

    Speaking of, the manual stating that the zerg infesting Koprulu are a scouting brood (broods?) implies that there are more zerg not infesting the planets. These might be where the extra zerg come from in the game to enable the psi-emitter terrorism, but it makes no tactical sense for the zerg to keep numbers in reserve if they are fighting a life or death battle against the protoss and terrans to acquire the determinant. In fact, since the protoss are arguing over the safety of the terrans then it is in the best of the zerg not to give the protoss reason to purify planets by, say, annihilating the terrans who could instead be used as hostages.

    The invasion of Brontes is the only example where this sort of makes sense, since the protoss fight each other to the point where they cannot effectively repel the zerg. Plus, the zerg actually take at least some protoss as hostages and are willing to exploit the zerg worshiper cults that popped up.

    We don't know how the exact output of the carrier's planetary bombardment, but Syndrea seemed to think that Andraxxus' 7th Fleet was sufficient to bombard Brontes IV. By cross-reference with other parts of the lore, every Executor commands a carrier as flagship of his fleet so there are at least fifty fleets in the Koprulu expedition if we assume that the fleet of fifty ships that bombarded Chau Sara were referring to the carriers.

    On the other hand, the zerg keeping most of the swarm in reserve makes sense if they do not wish to alert the protoss to the true extent of their presence as a galactic power. The Koprulu scouts who harvest human psychics can use their telepathy to send the genes they acquire to the swarms waiting elsewhere where they can engage in more detailed analysis and mass production.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    You're stretching mightily hard there. Besides, we're talking specifically about the Terran's capability of resisting the Zerg on their own here.
    Precisely. I don't think the terrans could survive a prolonged conflict without allying with the protoss. Even in the face of two alien invasions they still cannot get other their differences and actually try to exploit the aliens for their own purposes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It would if it thought it was worth it. The Psi-Emitters do amplify the inherent signal of a Ghost afterall, so the Overmind could've thought that this singular strong human psychic presence that popped up was an easy get.
    Noted. The psi-emitter amplifies the neurograph of any psychic who activates it, not just a ghost. If ghosts were sufficiently rare, and the wiki states that the Confederacy only employed a few hundred at the height of the Ghost Program, then I could understand diverting forces to acquire one.



    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Of course the Zerg are a plot device. They're the antagonists. So what? At least there's character to them and they're memorable through the Overmind. Compare this to BW where they truly are nothing more than a thing to be fought over, controlled or talked about.
    They are a playable faction in a military context. They need to have objectives and logistics that make sense from their own perspective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    But they're not really, in terms of lore, is it? You yourself have said that the Protoss are more powerful than the Zerg in all practical circumstances and I've said the Terrans have always been weaksauce compared to the other two, with the manual potentially backing these two things up. "Evenly matched" is only important for gameplay reasons.
    In the limited context of the Koprulu conflict, their local presence is roughly equivalent when we do not include super weapons and so forth unaccounted for in gameplay.



    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    "One and done" isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's no worse than "potentially ongoing".
    The way Blizzard did things, there was no real distinction. If you ignore the stupider plot points and gloss over pretty much everything, the games' story could be easily re-framed as an implementation of the Koprulu conflict promised in the manual because. The EU depicts the three races as being in a constant state of war anyway, even if Blizzard's absurd story renders all that nonsensical. The status quo remains essentially the same across the series because the limitations of logistics do not exist in the StarCraft universe, and every trilogy essentially rehashes the same basic plot.

  9. #59

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Since the zerg were intelligent, invaded the sector specifically to harvest psychics, and were probably aware of the Confederacy's experiments through their telepathic communication network, by definition the forces investigating psi-emitter beacons were a calculated move. The problem is that the authors writing the fiction seemingly forgot this and treated the psi-emitter as a generic zerg terrorism device.
    The whole harvesting psychics was because at that point, the infestation and assimilation of protoss didn't seem to work, so the Overmind needed another species with psionics in order to fill the gap. That way, it'll strengthen the swarm to the point where it can have better chances against the protoss. Thus INITIALLY it was about investigating the beacons. But since you need a ghost for the emitter to work, it's possible the writers wanted the Overmind to have the mentality of sending the swarm the moment there's a beacon, so a ghost could be harvested.

    After all, the point is to assimilate what's USEFUL. Therefore, the writers might have wanted the Overmind to have as many ghosts as possible captured, then decide for himself who's the best candidate for assimilation or infestation.

  10. #60

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    The whole harvesting psychics was because at that point, the infestation and assimilation of protoss didn't seem to work, so the Overmind needed another species with psionics in order to fill the gap. That way, it'll strengthen the swarm to the point where it can have better chances against the protoss. Thus INITIALLY it was about investigating the beacons. But since you need a ghost for the emitter to work, it's possible the writers wanted the Overmind to have the mentality of sending the swarm the moment there's a beacon, so a ghost could be harvested.

    After all, the point is to assimilate what's USEFUL. Therefore, the writers might have wanted the Overmind to have as many ghosts as possible captured, then decide for himself who's the best candidate for assimilation or infestation.
    Originally the zerg needed powerful psychics to counter the protoss, but as the plotholes and retcons accumulated this became irrelevant. In the most recent iteration of lore this plot point makes no sense, since the zerg never needed terran psychics to defeat the wimpy dying protoss.

    I doubt it is possible to determine what the writers wanted since they changed their minds so often and could not keep track of their own writing. The lore is an irrational mess and I made peace with that fact long ago. Now I just pick a set of consistent rules and force everything else to conform.

Similar Threads

  1. Phase Prism technology IRL
    By Alex06 in forum StarCraft Universe Lore Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-23-2014, 03:08 PM
  2. Protoss and Terran Technology
    By TheProgramer in forum StarCraft Universe Lore Discussion
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-22-2012, 04:50 PM
  3. 10 Reasons Why GOD HATES FRANCE!
    By floppy10 in forum Off-Topic Lounge
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-19-2010, 10:25 PM
  4. Need good Zerg build for SCII
    By Xadr in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-29-2010, 03:00 PM
  5. Valid reasons for lack of info?
    By Nenol-phoenix in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 52
    Last Post: 07-30-2009, 03:06 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •