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Thread: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

  1. #71

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    At this point, I decided to go with the zerg sent forces to attack Confederate beacons for multiple reasons. 1) the Confederates are trying to lure zerg but are unprepared for the volume that arrives so their forces are lost, 2) prevents the terrans from realizing the zerg are really intelligent, 3) dissuades the terrans from using beacons (they distract zerg psychic detectors), etc
    Number 1 isn't specifically a reason for the Zerg to attack Confederate beacons. Also, "Confederates trying to lure Zerg" is an assumption on Mengsk's part. The audience is led to believe Mengsk's rhetoric in this instance due to his being a voice of reason (at the time) and our knowledge of the Confeds history, but there's the possibility of Mengsk being potentially wrong about this too. Afterall, he also assumed the Zerg were actually created/bred by the Confeds specifically as weapons due to his negative bias against them and we know this is wrong because the audience has privileged information (ie: Zerg history) that he doesn't. It could just be that the Confeds developed the Psi-emitter for some other unspecified reason (which could be more or less nefarious than what Mengsk thought it'd be) because there's inherently a problem with the idea of the Confeds knowingly developed the Psi-emitter especially for attracting Zerg. If they really did know enough about the Zerg to manipulate them wholesale (it would've taken years of study to observe and verify such a fact/effect, for example), they surely would have also known the extent of the threat they possessed to some degree and would've made contingencies against them - they have afterall been the top-dog amongst the Terrans for about a century and no despotic reign can remain that long without being prepared, paranoid and on-guard all the time. As such, that the Confeds were largely unaware and incapable of handling the Zerg (as shown through Duke) suggests the possibility they didn't actually know much about the Zerg as we're led to believe.

    I don't really get number 2. Why would Zerg being attracted to and targeting what would essentially be the innately most powerful and dangerous human beings be considered an unintelligent move by the Terrans? From a Terran/human perspective (and being one myself), I'd find that the specificity of the Zerg attraction to enhanced individuals of our species to be very alarming rather than comforting.

    Number 3 makes sense but not with Number 1. If the aim for the Terrans is to lure Zerg via beacons and the Zerg become "lured" with the intent of wanting the Terrans to stop "luring" them, the result of the Terrans aim still supersedes the Zergs aim. Also, I thought the idea of Zerg encroachment on the Terrans was supposed to be subtle (as far as what Zerg consider subtlety I suppose) as to avoid direct Protoss contact and to observe them (as stated in the manual). The Zerg are not supposed to be "outright attacking" the Terrans as such in their invasions of the Terran worlds - though the subtlety/ difference of that may be lost when seen from the Terran perspective.

    Lastly, of the multiple reasons, you've omitted the supposed fundamental conceit of the Zerg wanting to find a Terran psychic to incorporate into their fold in order to effectively assist their engagements with the Protoss. I'm assuming you still hold that conceit but just didn't mention it since you presumed it was a given? All in all, this still doesn't resolve the issue of assuming all 3 races are "equal" when there's an inherent disparity/unequalness/general weakness of the Terrans when compared to the other two.
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  2. #72

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Number 1 isn't specifically a reason for the Zerg to attack Confederate beacons. Also, "Confederates trying to lure Zerg" is an assumption on Mengsk's part. The audience is led to believe Mengsk's rhetoric in this instance due to his being a voice of reason (at the time) and our knowledge of the Confeds history, but there's the possibility of Mengsk being potentially wrong about this too. Afterall, he also assumed the Zerg were actually created/bred by the Confeds specifically as weapons due to his negative bias against them and we know this is wrong because the audience has privileged information (ie: Zerg history) that he doesn't. It could just be that the Confeds developed the Psi-emitter for some other unspecified reason (which could be more or less nefarious than what Mengsk thought it'd be) because there's inherently a problem with the idea of the Confeds knowingly developed the Psi-emitter especially for attracting Zerg. If they really did know enough about the Zerg to manipulate them wholesale (it would've taken years of study to observe and verify such a fact/effect, for example), they surely would have also known the extent of the threat they possessed to some degree and would've made contingencies against them - they have afterall been the top-dog amongst the Terrans for about a century and no despotic reign can remain that long without being prepared, paranoid and on-guard all the time. As such, that the Confeds were largely unaware and incapable of handling the Zerg (as shown through Duke) suggests the possibility they didn't actually know much about the Zerg as we're led to believe.

    I don't really get number 2. Why would Zerg being attracted to and targeting what would essentially be the innately most powerful and dangerous human beings be considered an unintelligent move by the Terrans? From a Terran/human perspective (and being one myself), I'd find that the specificity of the Zerg attraction to enhanced individuals of our species to be very alarming rather than comforting.

    Number 3 makes sense but not with Number 1. If the aim for the Terrans is to lure Zerg via beacons and the Zerg become "lured" with the intent of wanting the Terrans to stop "luring" them, the result of the Terrans aim still supersedes the Zergs aim. Also, I thought the idea of Zerg encroachment on the Terrans was supposed to be subtle (as far as what Zerg consider subtlety I suppose) as to avoid direct Protoss contact and to observe them (as stated in the manual). The Zerg are not supposed to be "outright attacking" the Terrans as such in their invasions of the Terran worlds - though the subtlety/ difference of that may be lost when seen from the Terran perspective.

    Lastly, of the multiple reasons, you've omitted the supposed fundamental conceit of the Zerg wanting to find a Terran psychic to incorporate into their fold in order to effectively assist their engagements with the Protoss. I'm assuming you still hold that conceit but just didn't mention it since you presumed it was a given? All in all, this still doesn't resolve the issue of assuming all 3 races are "equal" when there's an inherent disparity/unequalness/general weakness of the Terrans when compared to the other two.
    Quite frankly the psi-emitter plot device just does not make sense. It never did. Metzen just added it to force the plot to go in a direction he wanted at the time even though logistics would have prohibited that. I cannot think of a way to make the psi-emitter make sense without ignoring the way it was used in canon.

    It does not make sense for the zerg to chase the psi-emitter when they are already looking for psychics elsewhere. After the Confederacy piqued their interest by trying to lure them to frontier worlds with psi-emitters (and their token forces got overwhelmed because they severely underestimated the zerg's numbers), I am quite sure the zerg have figured out what the psi-emitter is and what it does. It makes no sense that they would, as in Speed of Darkness, divert forces from Mar Sara City to an abandoned base with only one confirmed psychic when there would logically be hundreds more in Mar Sara City.

    The only explanation I can think of that does not sound absurd, or has holes like you mention, is that the psi-emitter interferes with zerg detection of terran psychics. Essentially, every psychic mind is a bonfire and the psi-emitter is the sun, or every psychic is a person talking at a concert and the emitter is the band. Whatever. As long as the psi-emitter is broadcasting, it drowns out the individual psychics. (Logically this should interfere with all psychic detection, but whatever!)

    As you have pointed out, and I have pointed out, there are numerous holes in the backstory of the Battle of Chau Sara. Near as I can tell from the wiki account, it was started by the Confederacy when they lured too many zerg (from somewhere?) with psi-emitters and were overwhelmed. The militia fought the zerg and the Confederacy jammed transmissions to keep the rest of the sector from panicking. This went on for days or weeks. Then the protos arrived and (after an unspecified period of time to ascertain what was going on) glassed the planet (only deep underground bunkers survived), then Tassadar immediately regretted the act and decided (as seen in Revelations) to fight on the surface of Mar Sara and rescue terrans. The Confederacy launched a counter-attack to deal with the aliens, then the Sons of Korhal got involved and started a revolt. In canon this plot thread was severed by Metzen but I see no reason why the Mar Saran Revolt could not have been the overarching plot of the game, especially considering by SC2 it was magically restored to normalcy and Raynor fought oppression then.

    The holes come in because: 1) the zerg had to have pulled those numbers from somewhere (they have limited numbers, since they did not immediately streamroll all opposition) and they needed a decent reason to start a war since for whatever reason they decided to subtly infest the terran worlds (protoss patrols? terran aggression? what?), 2) the Confederacy somehow did not arouse suspicion when they effectively quarantined a core world (a penal colony with a population in the millions whose main export was construction materials including wood and "neosteel") for days or weeks (although this is consistent with their other activities like genociding Korhal, infecting the fringe worlds with "cholera", annexing the Kel-Morian Combine, and so forth), 3) the protoss expedition's sudden dramatic change in strategy is poorly explained (without invoking the Ara/Akilae schism, suggesting that Oong, Tassadar, Andraxxus and the other executors were following orders).

    What would you suggest to explain... well, anything?

  3. #73

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The holes come in because: 1) the zerg had to have pulled those numbers from somewhere (they have limited numbers, since they did not immediately streamroll all opposition) and they needed a decent reason to start a war since for whatever reason they decided to subtly infest the terran worlds (protoss patrols? terran aggression? what?), 2) the Confederacy somehow did not arouse suspicion when they effectively quarantined a core world (a penal colony with a population in the millions whose main export was construction materials including wood and "neosteel") for days or weeks (although this is consistent with their other activities like genociding Korhal, infecting the fringe worlds with "cholera", annexing the Kel-Morian Combine, and so forth), 3) the protoss expedition's sudden dramatic change in strategy is poorly explained (without invoking the Ara/Akilae schism, suggesting that Oong, Tassadar, Andraxxus and the other executors were following orders).

    What would you suggest to explain... well, anything?
    1. The zerg were looking for psychics needed to assimilate into the swarm to help them fight the protoss. But I'm sure it didn't take the Overmind very long to realize unlike the protoss people, the average terran had no psionic abilities, which means finding psychics are rare. It'd therefore be necessary to send large numbers of zerg to terran worlds, and to as many terran worlds as possible, in order to collect the psychics (assuming there's even any on a certain world to collect)

    2. I'm not convinced the Confederacy achieved THAT, more like there were a lot of people who simply felt the numbers weren't adding up, but they couldn't put their finger on what was really going on, and then Tarsonis fell and that was the end of the matter. If that's the case it'd be similar to the UNN broadcasts in WoL after the Cutthroat mission, where there were those who suspected Mengsk might have had a hand in the zerg invasion of Tarsonis because the timing seemed a bit too perfect.

    3. Which part of the change in strategy? If you're referring to Tarsonis, Tassadar merely felt it was wrong to carry out the Conclave's orders like that. Sure, we know from the manual the protoss weren't exactly happy with the terrans' actions even before the zerg entered the picture, but it's possible Tassadar felt it'd be wrong to classify ALL terrans like that.

  4. #74

    Default Re: What are good reasons for the zerg to not use technology?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Quite frankly the psi-emitter plot device just does not make sense. It never did. Metzen just added it to force the plot to go in a direction he wanted at the time even though logistics would have prohibited that. I cannot think of a way to make the psi-emitter make sense without ignoring the way it was used in canon.
    The Psi-emitter is relatively simple as a plot device. All it does is broadcast an amplified psionic signal derived from psionic terrans. That's all it does. It is not actually known what the initial Confederate intent/reason behind the development of the device was (an alternate reason could've been that it was a Confederate ploy to attract/draw in latent psionic Terrans into their clutches/Ghost programs) beyond the one that Mengsk ascribes it to be. That is an important distinction to make because the attraction of the Zerg was possibly an unintended/unexpected consequence of the device. I can say this with some (not complete) degree of confidence because the Terrans were largely unaware and taken by surprise with the appearance of the Zerg and have no means of defending themselves against the Zerg despite supposedly knowing so much about them as to create a device specifically targeting Zerg. I think the problem you have is that you conflate the Psi-emitter plot device as being made specifically to attract Zerg on a Doylist/out-of-universe one as the same as the Watsonian/in-universe level when it possibly could not be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    It does not make sense for the zerg to chase the psi-emitter when they are already looking for psychics elsewhere.
    Why? It's stated in the manual that the Overmind didn't find it amongst the many other species it had encountered and assimilated on its long travels and was despairing until it discovered the Terrans. That a large psionic presence then makes itself known within this Terran space is too good an opportunity for the Overmind to just pass up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    After the Confederacy piqued their interest by trying to lure them to frontier worlds with psi-emitters (and their token forces got overwhelmed because they severely underestimated the zerg's numbers), I am quite sure the zerg have figured out what the psi-emitter is and what it does.
    Yeah, but this is based on Mengsk's assumption that the Confeds were indeed using Psi-emitters on Chau Sara and were specifically attracting Zerg there with them. Like I said, we actually don't know the Confed side of things at the time. The Confeds may have been completely and specifically innocent in regard to using psi emitters to attract Zerg on their worlds. They could've had some other undisclosed purpose. Afterall, the manual states in the Terran history that the Zerg were the second race to be encountered/reported (on Mar Sara, not Chau Sara) and that the Overmind was able to infest several Terran worlds without their knowledge in the Zerg history. This doesn't gel with Mengsk's statement in The Jacobs Installation about seeing Zerg in Confederate pens for at least a year prior to this current flashpoint of events we're seeing. We know that some of Mengsks' statements like the Zerg being created by the Confeds are wrong (since we have privileged information he doesn't), so the manual seems to have a more higher authority than Mengsk's hearsay. Even if Mengsk was correct that the Confeds did actually know about the Zerg and how Psi-emitters are involved in this in some way, how do we know the Confeds were not just testing them as a means to try and control the Zerg? Maybe the Psi emitters were perhaps intended as a rudimentary defensive function. Or, maybe the Confeds were just as oblivious and blind like Duke (their only representative) was. Also, it's not known whether a psi-emitter was what attracted the Overmind to Chau Sara nor whether the Zerg ever found out about psi-emitters.

    Now, I realise that I am ignoring the retcons and knowledge gained after the fact to make my point here but it's an important distinction to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The holes come in because: 1) the zerg had to have pulled those numbers from somewhere (they have limited numbers, since they did not immediately streamroll all opposition) and they needed a decent reason to start a war since for whatever reason they decided to subtly infest the terran worlds (protoss patrols? terran aggression? what?), 2) the Confederacy somehow did not arouse suspicion when they effectively quarantined a core world (a penal colony with a population in the millions whose main export was construction materials including wood and "neosteel") for days or weeks (although this is consistent with their other activities like genociding Korhal, infecting the fringe worlds with "cholera", annexing the Kel-Morian Combine, and so forth), 3) the protoss expedition's sudden dramatic change in strategy is poorly explained (without invoking the Ara/Akilae schism, suggesting that Oong, Tassadar, Andraxxus and the other executors were following orders).

    What would you suggest to explain... well, anything?
    I can only base my possible explanations/resolutions of these issues from the perspective of limited knowledge I had at the time - namely this'd be the manual. The Zerg did infest several worlds unbeknownst to the Terrans before the Protoss caught their attention. I'd say that the Zerg numbers weren't that "large" on Chau Sara for the Terrans at large/Confeds to figure anything out (that or they were just blind due to the stuff happening on the fringe because of their infighting), because the Protoss wiped it out before the Terrans/Confeds even knew about the Zerg. They only knew about the Zerg when the Protoss started to encroach on Mar Sara. This covers point 1 and 2. As to point 3, the manual effectively explains this already. Tassadar had a pang of conscience after performing what he felt to be a morally reprehensible thing to do, hence the change in tactics.
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