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Thread: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

  1. #91

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    They’re not really fighting over the galaxy though, just a small section of space. The UPL was way more “galactic” than all the races combined.
    The zerg and protoss were galactic powers prior to retcons. The zerg stripped the biospheres of countless planets and the protoss claimed many hundreds of worlds. The UPL had no stated territories beyond the solar system until they were retconned into colonizing Koprulu deliberately.

  2. #92
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    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    The zerg didn't stay at each planet though, they just went in a straight line to the k-sector. All the broods combined in the manual didn't even add up to 15 million. The protoss conquered hundreds of worlds "in their corner of the galaxy" but that might not even be enough to conquer a whole star cluster (of which our galaxy has like 150). And the Protoss watched over each planet per the Dae'Uhl, so it's not like they had a thriving civilization on each one.

    You could easily argue that the conflict in StarCraft all takes place within one star cluster, which is impressive but not exactly "galactic". Yeah, the UPL could have been wracked by war and never expanded, but the manual didn't exactly imply that. Instead the Koprulu terrans built up giant empires from three UPL seed ships, which implies that the UPL population and empire was pretty scary in comparison by that point and could have actually been "galactic" or at least far more numerous than the zerg or protoss (15 million zerg is kind of a joke; we have 7 billion humans).

  3. #93

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    It should not be possible for you to misunderstand anything I say anymore since I spent the past year waxing poetic about how much I hate QoB since her birth and how I think the franchise should be rebooted back to basics without her in it. The franchise is called StarCraft, not The Adventures of Kerry. If you want to write Kerry-centric fanfiction then make a new franchise solely about her rather than turn StarCraft into a farce. StarCraft should be a military scifi political drama about three races fighting for morally grey reasons, not a romantic comedy soap opera about a cartoonish supervillain and her equally cartoonish boyfriend.
    You might as well have spent the last year saying how since SC1 everything had been so crappy the developers should be locked in the insane asylum for doing a job that drug ridden monkeys could do better. Some of us are not as critical.

  4. #94

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The zerg didn't stay at each planet though, they just went in a straight line to the k-sector. All the broods combined in the manual didn't even add up to 15 million. The protoss conquered hundreds of worlds "in their corner of the galaxy" but that might not even be enough to conquer a whole star cluster (of which our galaxy has like 150). And the Protoss watched over each planet per the Dae'Uhl, so it's not like they had a thriving civilization on each one.

    You could easily argue that the conflict in StarCraft all takes place within one star cluster, which is impressive but not exactly "galactic". Yeah, the UPL could have been wracked by war and never expanded, but the manual didn't exactly imply that. Instead the Koprulu terrans built up giant empires from three UPL seed ships, which implies that the UPL population and empire was pretty scary in comparison by that point and could have actually been "galactic" or at least far more numerous than the zerg or protoss (15 million zerg is kind of a joke; we have 7 billion humans).
    Those calculations are narratively absurd and contradict other parts of the manual.

    The zerg consumed countless planets for countless millennia before making a beeline to Koprulu once their probes found humans. The protoss claimed an 8th of the many thousands of worlds across the galaxy supposedly once claimed by the xel’naga. “Corner” in this context implies they claim at least one contiguous quadrant of the galaxy, not some tiny obscure fiefdom.

    The military organizations listed in the manual were not intended to represent the entirety of their civilizations. The zerg used many billions of warriors as ammunition against the xel’naga ships. The protoss obviously had far more than six tribes.

    Furthermore, the population numbers are not consistent between different sources. In the manual Koprulu was limited to a single star system of over a dozen colonized planets, a la Battlestar Galactica.

  5. #95
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    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Those calculations are narratively absurd and contradict other parts of the manual.
    No, you’re confused or misinterpreting the manual as usual. I’m just quoting basic astronomy and numbers from the manual.

    The zerg consumed countless planets for countless millennia before making a beeline to Koprulu once their probes found humans. The protoss claimed an 8th of the many thousands of worlds across the galaxy supposedly once claimed by the xel’naga. “Corner” in this context implies they claim at least one contiguous quadrant of the galaxy, not some tiny obscure fiefdom.
    What is this quadrant stuff? That’s not from the manual. The protoss have hundreds of worlds, which is a medium sized star cluster. It could be spread out over more than one, but that’s less likely and wouldn’t make as much sense.

    The military organizations listed in the manual were not intended to represent the entirety of their civilizations. The zerg used many billions of warriors as ammunition against the xel’naga ships. The protoss obviously had far more than six tribes.
    Wat? Where is this from? You can’t just make stuff up...

    “Billions” of Zerg are from SC1, but the manual paints a different picture.

    Furthermore, the population numbers are not consistent between different sources. In the manual Koprulu was limited to a single star system of over a dozen colonized planets, a la Battlestar Galactica.
    Theres nothing to imply it was like BSG. The stars in BSG were insanely close. In SC, the colonies were isolated until they developed warp drives. I feel like you’re confusing star system and solar system.

  6. #96

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    the manual specifies that the main broods, nothing omits other secondary that as already stated there are many cerebrates that do not deserve a name, and the billions comes from the death counter of the UED in broodwar in char after death in prevous wars(AIur tarsonis for exmples)

  7. #97

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    No, you’re confused or misinterpreting the manual as usual. I’m just quoting basic astronomy and numbers from the manual.
    Please stop saying this. I am not confused and I am not misinterpreting the manual. I have always interpreted the manual more or less literally even though I think the numbers have always been questionable. I have drawn conclusions and made predictions based on the manual, such as that the zerg's intent is to assimilate humans into psyolisks or whatever just like they do for other species they consume. You personally disagree with everything I say for reasons that mystify me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    What is this quadrant stuff? That’s not from the manual. The protoss have hundreds of worlds, which is a medium sized star cluster. It could be spread out over more than one, but that’s less likely and wouldn’t make as much sense.
    Here are the relevant quotes from the manual:

    "Although only fragmented documentation remains, ancient Protoss texts speak of a highly advanced race that ruled over thousands of worlds in the galaxy, tens of millions of years ago. "

    "Over the course of only a few hundred years, the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds within their corner of the galaxy, and spread the fruits of their great civilisation to many of the more advanced races that they encountered. All in all, the Protoss inadvertently succeeded in reclaiming an eighth of the worlds once presided over by the Xel’Naga."

    "But, much like the Xel’Naga many millennia before, the Protoss kept their presence hidden from the lesser races in their care. Many hundreds of species grew and thrived on the various worlds within their space, never knowing that they were secretly guarded from on high."

    So it is reasonable to assume they hold at least a thousand worlds.

    There is no reason to assume that all these planets are right next to each other. Since the protoss have FTL, they can skip all the boring distance between their holdings. It is entirely possible that most of the space they officially claim is unexplored. If you take "their corner of the galaxy" literally, then it could easily refer to a quadrant of the galaxy.

    However, the single most telling statement is "hundreds of species". Based on the context, I assume these are meant to be intelligent species at the very least capable of language. Assuming that intelligent species are rare since we rarely see any, then that means the protoss empire extends across at least many thousands of habitable worlds much less uninhabitable worlds.

    In any event, the exact numbers are not important and I doubt the author really thought them through. The intent is that the protoss hold a massive galactic empire and are the most powerful civilization in the galaxy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Wat? Where is this from? You can’t just make stuff up...

    “Billions” of Zerg are from SC1, but the manual paints a different picture.
    The manual states "Although there is very little known about the different Broods that comprise the Zerg Swarms, some Terran scientists have attempted to document and classify a few of the larger Broods that have ransacked their colonies." The six broods listed in the manual do not represent the entirety of zerg forces.

    The zerg burned through countless worlds over countless millennia, stripping them of all resources. At the very least, it means the swarms are arbitrarily large or beyond the ability of human minds to keep track of.

    The exact numbers are not important and I doubt the author thought them through. The intent is that the zerg are a galactic power that could rival the protoss if not for their inferior military. Why is their military inferior? Because the protoss may warp reality using their psychic powers and technology. The zerg need to assimilate a race with similar potential, like humans, before they can stand a chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Theres nothing to imply it was like BSG. The stars in BSG were insanely close. In SC, the colonies were isolated until they developed warp drives. I feel like you’re confusing star system and solar system.
    The manual states: "Eventually, the warp-drive engines of the four supercarriers reached critical meltdown. After twenty-eight years of warp travel, the huge ships emerged into real space near the edge of a habitable star system. Some 60,000 light years from the Earth, their engines destroyed and their life-support batteries nearly exhausted, the ships engaged their emergency protocols and plummeted towards the nearest habitable worlds in the system."

    The Confederacy, Umojans and Morians were originally located in the same system. It is not stated if the system has one star or multiple stars, but that distinction is academic. However, the naming schemes of several planets in manual (Tyrador IX, Dylar IV) suggests that terrans have colonized multiple systems. I suspect that this is a mistake due to poor proofreading (since the author's ideas clearly changed over the course of development), and that the three power blocs are meant to be in separate systems.

    BSG had the twelve colonies based in a multi-star system.

  8. #98
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    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I have drawn conclusions and made predictions based on the manual, such as that the zerg's intent is to assimilate humans into psyolisks or whatever just like they do for other species they consume.
    But you can't treat a predication like that as fact, which you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    So it is reasonable to assume they hold at least a thousand worlds.
    No. It says right there how many they have:

    "the Protoss conquered hundreds of worlds "

    If the Xel'Naga would have about 10000 worlds (thousands), then the protoss have about 1200 (hundreds). The manual is pretty consistent about this. Nowhere does it say the protoss have thousands. If the Protoss had thousands, it would have said so, and it would have said the Xel'Naga have tens of thousands. But it doesn't.

    There is no reason to assume that all these planets are right next to each other.
    I never said they are.

    Since the protoss have FTL, they can skip all the boring distance between their holdings. It is entirely possible that most of the space they officially claim is unexplored. If you take "their corner of the galaxy" literally, then it could easily refer to a quadrant of the galaxy.
    Yeah, it could. It could also be in a single star cluster. But you're the one who keeps saying the protoss are "galactic" so you need to provide evidence. Merely saying "they could" is not evidence of anything. And even if they were spread out so far apart, they still don't actually control the worlds in between and therefore still aren't anywhere near "galactic". So I really don't get your logic here.

    However, the single most telling statement is "hundreds of species". Based on the context, I assume these are meant to be intelligent species at the very least capable of language. Assuming that intelligent species are rare since we rarely see any, then that means the protoss empire extends across at least many thousands of habitable worlds much less uninhabitable worlds.
    wtf?

    - why are you assuming they're all intelligent? It doesn't say so anywhere. Stop inserting words that don't exist into the manual.
    - Earth has millions of species. You can't use this figure to extrapolate the number of planets...

    The intent is that the protoss hold a massive galactic empire and are the most powerful civilization in the galaxy.
    A star cluster can contain thousands of planets, so no, it could very well be (and is more likely) that the protoss only hold a single star cluster and the UPL controls more planets than they do. The manual doesn't even actually mention other colonies with cities/civilizations on them; all it says is that the protoss watch other species in secret. There's no proof of this "galactic protoss empire" in the manual.

    The manual states "Although there is very little known about the different Broods that comprise the Zerg Swarms, some Terran scientists have attempted to document and classify a few of the larger Broods that have ransacked their colonies." The six broods listed in the manual do not represent the entirety of zerg forces.
    Except that if Fenris and Baelrog brood with it's 5000 & 6000 zerg is one of the "larger broods" then that's pretty damn small and not really helping your case or implying that the zerg are "galactic"...

    The zerg burned through countless worlds over countless millennia, stripping them of all resources. At the very least, it means the swarms are arbitrarily large or beyond the ability of human minds to keep track of.
    1. ShadowArchon is not a valid source. Quote me the manual only since that's what your bible is.
    2. The manual says the terrans consume the resources of a whole planet. Doesn't say that about the zerg.
    3. No it does not mean that. It means they've been invading planets for a long time. The manual implies the swarm all moved together as one instead of lingering at each conquered planet.

    The exact numbers are not important and I doubt the author thought them through. The intent is that the zerg are a galactic power that could rival the protoss if not for their inferior military.
    You haven't proven that they're galactic at all though, just that the zerg traveled across the galaxy over thousands of years. What makes you think the author didn't think the numbers through? They seem to make sense to everyone but you.

    The manual states: "Eventually, the warp-drive engines of the four supercarriers reached critical meltdown. After twenty-eight years of warp travel, the huge ships emerged into real space near the edge of a habitable star system. Some 60,000 light years from the Earth, their engines destroyed and their life-support batteries nearly exhausted, the ships engaged their emergency protocols and plummeted towards the nearest habitable worlds in the system."

    The Confederacy, Umojans and Morians were originally located in the same system. It is not stated if the system has one star or multiple stars, but that distinction is academic. However, the naming schemes of several planets in manual (Tyrador IX, Dylar IV) suggests that terrans have colonized multiple systems. I suspect that this is a mistake due to poor proofreading (since the author's ideas clearly changed over the course of development), and that the three power blocs are meant to be in separate systems.

    BSG had the twelve colonies based in a multi-star system.
    I mean, they can be a light year apart and have multiple stars in the system, but that's not exactly helping your case. It just makes the Koprulu terrans look like a joke compared to the zerg and protoss, and definitely nowhere near "galactic".

    You're saying the manual set the stage for this giant galactic never-ending war, except that if that's the case the Koprulu terrans wouldn't even be in the game.

  9. #99

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Except that if Fenris and Baelrog brood with it's 5000 & 6000 zerg is one of the "larger broods" then that's pretty damn small and not really helping your case or implying that the zerg are "galactic"...
    no "Tiamat is the largest and most powerful Brood within the extended Swarm". powwith 6.5 million fenris and baelrog are brood specialist
    and the point is that there are many more brood than those mentioned in the manual that would equate to elite forces with specific paper and discounted that the numbers of cerebrate or brood was determined and at least another 5 minors are mentioned and thus remains open the existence of many moreerful Brood within the extended Swarm."
    there are more unknown strangers in addition to the 6 mentioned in the manual

  10. #100
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    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by drakolobo View Post
    no "Tiamat is the largest and most powerful Brood within the extended Swarm". powwith 6.5 million fenris and baelrog are brood specialist
    and the point is that there are many more brood than those mentioned in the manual that would equate to elite forces with specific paper and discounted that the numbers of cerebrate or brood was determined and at least another 5 minors are mentioned and thus remains open the existence of many moreerful Brood within the extended Swarm."
    there are more unknown strangers in addition to the 6 mentioned in the manual
    Ok? I never said there weren't more. The point is that the manual says the broods listed are some of the largest (ones with only 5000). Yeah, there could be more, but even if there's a hundred more Tiamat broods the zerg still wouldn't have a billion, let alone billions (just going off the manual).

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