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Thread: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

  1. #31

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Kinda wondering why Misla is a "fan" of Starcraft at all.

    I feel like he wants a backdrop for his own fiction -- which isn't a bad thing. A genocidal judicator? What's this about?
    He's here merely to point out the flaws, since even SC1 and BW had its share, though I feel he's pushing it too far.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    The wiki is full of unlabeled retcons and other inconsistencies. The most consistent source we have is the original manual.
    But Sandwich, Mags want to criticize the SC2 lore while simultaneously not taking the SC2 lore/retcons into account. Quoting facts from the wiki makes that kinda hard, don't you think? :P
    Righttttt, silly me

    Also the statement about them being nourished and refreshed by the khala contradicts them being photosynthetic.
    There can be multiple ways to be nourished and refreshed. Not much of a hard contradiction.

    Honestly, I think them being literally nourished by the psychic internet is far more interesting and evocative than unscientific photosynthesis. I have been having loads of fun imagining what Khala withdrawal is like.
    I agree, I prefer this idea as well. I do think photosynthesis is unnecessary and just add problems.

    You would not know that from playing Starcraft, since it does nothing to make the judicator sympathetic or believable. The narrative contrives to make them into caricatures. That is precisely the sort of stuff I wrote about when I tried to make the judicators look sympathetic and of at least average intelligence.

    See, Episode 3 did nothing to make Aldaris' actions look remotely sane. When I had to explain their motivations and make their Nazi-esque pogrom look justifiable, I basically wrote that during the Aeon of Strife the protoss were so advanced and immoral that they used their god-like power to turn the hell of their ancient religions into reality. In hell, nobody could ever die or stop suffering even if their body was atomized. In my world, Aldaris thinks it is justified to commit genocide because he fears the nerazim will literally send his people to hell. While we the audience know his fears are unfounded concerning the nerazim, we now know that the ancient protoss were advanced enough to create hell itself and that the tal'darim would probably be happy to bring it back.
    Good luck trying to insert all your justifications in ~15 lines of mission briefing. Can't really blame the writers here. The medium was far more limited and had other considerations as well.

    Your fanon is kinda cool though.

    I find your rebuttal a weak justification of the status quo. Starcraft is bland, banal, cliche and unbelievable. I prefer to explore something new, interesting, thought-provoking and believable.
    How is it weak? Do you think it doesn't fit the lore or do you mean it's weak in the sense that you don't like it?

    Starcraft can't be that bland to you if you come shitpost on a fan site. Otherwise, really don't know what you're doing here. You're sadomaso?

    Yes, I am terribly irrational.
    Honestly not sure if this is acceptance or sarcasm.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    I am extremely bitter, I admit that. Starcraft had a great premise for a multimedia franchise in the manual but the games botched that premise in execution.

    This all stems from one problem: that SC1 had a ridiculously cramped narrative that glossed over a galactic war and neatly severed all the plot threads introduced by the manual. You could have made a dozen games exploring the events occurring during Rebel Yell alone. Defeating the Overmind was the sort of thing you would save for the end of the franchise, not the beginning. So unsurprisingly the following games had nonsensical plots full of retcons and contrivances.

    But this is the wrong thread to discuss that so I will stop myself now.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    I mean, it definitely seems like you have narrative ideas for the universe. You could share your ideas for something like a parallel universe in which your story takes place, like Alternity. I wouldn't mind hearing more about this judicator of yours.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I am pretty sure the copy itself and everyone who interacts with it will contest this. A copy of a living person would be an identical twin.
    The impression that they're the same thing will potentially hold until they're told it's a copy... then doubt can start on both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    This all stems from one problem: that SC1 had a ridiculously cramped narrative that glossed over a galactic war and neatly severed all the plot threads introduced by the manual. You could have made a dozen games exploring the events occurring during Rebel Yell alone. Defeating the Overmind was the sort of thing you would save for the end of the franchise, not the beginning. So unsurprisingly the following games had nonsensical plots full of retcons and contrivances.
    I'd say the problem stems from you assuming that the first game at the time was always going to be successful enough to become a franchise. Back then, the developers sure would've liked the surety of knowing it would've gone gangbusters but they didn't, so they put everything on the table to get the best thing out at the time in case they don't get another chance and it shows. Sc1 is complete in that it had a setup, a story that continued from that premise and a well-paced and engaging plot that wrapped everything up neatly in the end, which is all one can really hope to get with any new IP. It didn't need to be continued and that's awesome if the game didn't do well. But... it did do well, so continuation/sequels were a no-brainer. "Luckily", they put in sequel-bait to justify churning out more.
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  6. #36

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    I mean, it definitely seems like you have narrative ideas for the universe. You could share your ideas for something like a parallel universe in which your story takes place, like Alternity. I wouldn't mind hearing more about this judicator of yours.
    I made a thread for that already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I'd say the problem stems from you assuming that the first game at the time was always going to be successful enough to become a franchise. Back then, the developers sure would've liked the surety of knowing it would've gone gangbusters but they didn't, so they put everything on the table to get the best thing out at the time in case they don't get another chance and it shows. Sc1 is complete in that it had a setup, a story that continued from that premise and a well-paced and engaging plot that wrapped everything up neatly in the end, which is all one can really hope to get with any new IP. It didn't need to be continued and that's awesome if the game didn't do well. But... it did do well, so continuation/sequels were a no-brainer. "Luckily", they put in sequel-bait to justify churning out more.
    That is precisely the problem. Starcraft was never intended to have sequels, so it suffered from a terrible case of sequelitis that turned it into an unrecognizable mess. It needs a reboot that does a better job with the original premise given by the manual. Which I made a thread about.

    Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Starcraft was never intended to have sequels, so it suffered from a terrible case of sequelitis that turned it into an unrecognizable mess.
    Sequelitis isn't a direct consequence of the first iteration being complete in and of itself, it's a direct consequence of the first iteration being successful and the developers wanting to wring more money from that IP. Course, that's not to say that sequelitis is going to be a given for every successful first iteration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    It needs a reboot that does a better job with the original premise given by the manual.
    The expansion/sequels maybe but Sc1 doesn't really need it since the game is concordant with the manual at a basic level, it did well and it is fondly remembered - asking for even more consistent details and minutiae is a privilege that was yet to be earned nor expected at the time. No-one is really clamouring for a reboot of Sc1, except you.
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  8. #38

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The expansion/sequels maybe but Sc1 doesn't really need it since the game is concordant with the manual at a basic level, it did well and it is fondly remembered - asking for even more consistent details and minutiae is a privilege that was yet to be earned nor expected at the time. No-one is really clamouring for a reboot of Sc1, except you.
    ”At the time?” I don’t give a flying fuck. The franchise is shit now.

    Nostalgia blinds your ability to appraise SC1. SC1 was a pretty piss poor implementation of the manual. Barely any of the factions explained in the manual showed up due to the ridiculous levels of shoehorning. So they were written out of the story going forward, and Metzen replaced them with shit.

    There is no good way to continue the existing story since the writers constantly shot themselves in the foot. Among other things, the moral relativity and history that made the factions interesting and instigated an indefinite conflict is completely gone in favor of an absurd Disney ending. The UED would just be a rehash of Amon where everyone teams up to stop them just because, since Blizzard is terrible at writing. It cannot be salvaged.

    It is best to reboot the franchise in order to remove all those obstacles to a decent, believable story driven by politics rather than writer fiat.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    It’s obviously your favorite sci fi game since you spend all this time talking about it. You could be on some Warhammer forum, but nope.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Are Dragoons "Realistic?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    ”At the time?” I don’t give a flying fuck. The franchise is shit now.
    Then limit your criticism to what happened now rather than rely on presumption of past things as being some conspiratorial misdeed/ad hominem. You may sound a bit more credible if you do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Nostalgia blinds your ability to appraise SC1. SC1 was a pretty piss poor implementation of the manual.
    Oh, I bow to the authority of your forthrightness. You declare with such conviction that I am compelled to agree!

    Wait a sec, lemme have a go: "Your negative bias blinds your ability to appraise Sc1. Sc1 was an adequate implementation of the manual". Huh, who'd a thought that another opinion could be so easily countered by another opinion? Wowee

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Barely any of the factions explained in the manual showed up due to the ridiculous levels of shoehorning. So they were written out of the story going forward, and Metzen replaced them with shit.
    Yeah, you don't seem to understand the core reason for fluff and world-building. It's not meant to be a signpost/checklist for things to occur in the story, it's to build the illusion of verisimilitude and complexity in what is ostensibly a small fictional universe. Homeworlds manual has a tonne of information on factions, history and lore that don't show up in the game either. Oh noes, this must mean there was some Machiavellian conspiracy to write that stuff out according to Misla logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    There is no good way to continue the existing story since the writers constantly shot themselves in the foot.
    I'm okay with that. Sc1 wasn't perfect and serviceable at the worst but I'm happy with what I got. I didn't really want the story to continue past BW nor did I think it needed it back then either. Sc2 ended up vindicating that opinion in the end. So, I guess that means there's no more Sc for me then. Boohoo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    It is best to reboot the franchise in order to remove all those obstacles to a decent, believable story driven by politics rather than writer fiat.
    Meh. Reboots are just another form in which sequelitis to take root. It's just an excuse to mine what nostalgia one has of an IP and to capitalise on an existing fan base in order to garner interest, attention and most of all, money. Also, all stories are driven by writer fiat. Some are just better at hiding it or using it to their advantage than others.
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