View Poll Results: Should Artanis be made older?

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  • Yes, he's too young

    3 13.04%
  • No, age is but a number

    19 82.61%
  • Undecided but I decided to vote anyway

    1 4.35%
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Thread: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

  1. #11

    Default Re: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
    They have the exact same active, killing powers of zealots, which is to say none. High templar (and dark archons) are the psionic specialists of the protoss. Just because every protoss is a psychic doesn't mean they all specialize in it (to give a human example, not every strong musclebound person becomes a fireman or boxer, some have jobs like accountant and so forth; in a society of big strong people, most aren't going to get jobs where their strength is important).

    You find this even among ghosts. While all ghosts are psychic, some are pretty bad at it (like the one who was ordered to kill Corbin Phash in Orientation) while some are very good at it (like Devon Starke and the one that nearly cooked Turfa Dei's brain in the StarCraft comic).
    I wouldn't take the game units as a fact of what the Protoss can or cannot do. Here, look at this:
    The power suits worn by Zealots enhance and channel their already formidable Psionic abilities, allowing them to form a protective shield around themselves and project massive energy blades from their forearms.
    Note than they already have formidable psionic abilities, and the power suits enhance them, but they're the ones mantaining the shield and the energy blades. Also, remember that they have limited precognition and can turn their whole bodies into energy now.
    Any Protoss is likely to have high levels of telepathy, telekinesis, etc. Telepathy can probably be used to kill, or at least disable enemies.

  2. #12

    Default Re: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
    Raszagal faded mentally. The Brood War manual was quite explicit about that.
    Zeratul is 4 hundred years away from expected fading, and maybe Zeratul is more mentally capable.
    Wait, Brood War has its own manual?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
    They have the exact same active, killing powers of zealots, which is to say none. High templar (and dark archons) are the psionic specialists of the protoss. Just because every protoss is a psychic doesn't mean they all specialize in it (to give a human example, not every strong musclebound person becomes a fireman or boxer, some have jobs like accountant and so forth; in a society of big strong people, most aren't going to get jobs where their strength is important).
    You find this even among ghosts. While all ghosts are psychic, some are pretty bad at it (like the one who was ordered to kill Corbin Phash in Orientation) while some are very good at it (like Devon Starke and the one that nearly cooked Turfa Dei's brain in the StarCraft comic).
    Ok, I got the point.
    Note that Dark Templar possess energies natural to Protoss, and High Templars are using somewhat weakened form. I'll try to get a reliable proof later, that's what I heard from my friend...

  3. #13

    Default Re: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norfindel View Post
    I wouldn't take the game units as a fact of what the Protoss can or cannot do.
    I wasn't using just the units, I'm using lore.

    Note than they already have formidable psionic abilities, and the power suits enhance them, but they're the ones mantaining the shield and the energy blades.
    Formidable doesn't mean "I think, therefore you die". They're also not the ones maintaining the shields; shields has been explicitly stated by Blizzard to be technology, recently and in the manual. (Above-average zealots like Khastiana may be able to boost their shields themselves; as a hero, she does not represent the typical zealot.)

    Also, remember that they have limited precognition and can turn their whole bodies into energy now.
    Those still aren't direct attack powers.

    Any Protoss is likely to have high levels of telepathy, telekinesis, etc. Telepathy can probably be used to kill, or at least disable enemies.
    Where are you getting that from? All protoss are telepathic, but nowhere does it say telekinesis is even common, we don't see any random protoss killing or disabling people with their minds either. We only really see heroes (or named characters outside of the game itself) using powers like that (examples include Alzadar, who disabled a terran using such a power, compared to Raztural, a dark templar and thus probably more powerful than a typical zealot, who disabled the same terran by backhanding her).

    That kind of thing seems to require training, and zealots get minimal training in the Khala.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kknewkles
    Note that Dark Templar possess energies natural to Protoss, and High Templars are using somewhat weakened form. I'll try to get a reliable proof later, that's what I heard from my friend...
    I'm pretty sure high templar are more powerful, at least in terms of directly affecting the environment with their powers. The Khalai and Dark Templar both have propaganda to denigrate each other, so when a Dark Templar claims a Khalai is using a "limited" set of powers, you probably shouldn't believe them; after all, the Dark Templar have cut themselves off from the Khala, which is limiting their powers as well.

    Of course, there are far more zealots than dark templar, and the Dark Templar (faction) seems to be able to field a much higher proportion of their population as psychic warriors than the Khalai*; sort of going for a medium strategy rather than a "bunch of weak psychics and bunch of mondo psychics strategry". (Most protoss are Khalai Caste, who aren't trained to fight at all, and as we learned from Do No Harm, are pretty weak psychics too compared to the Templar Caste.)

    *Khalai = followers of the Khala. There's also the Khalai Caste. Confusing?
    Last edited by Kimera757; 10-24-2009 at 03:07 PM.
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  4. #14

    Default Re: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
    I wasn't using just the units, I'm using lore.
    Do you readed somewhere that standard Protoss cannot do something? Because there's lore saying than a standard run-of-the-mill Protoss is more powerful than even the most gifted and finely trained human psychics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
    Formidable doesn't mean "I think, therefore you die".
    No, but that doesn't means they cannot either, or at least stun, or cause injury, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
    Where are you getting that from? All protoss are telepathic, but nowhere does it say telekinesis is even common, we don't see any random protoss killing or disabling people with their minds either. We only really see heroes (or named characters outside of the game itself) using powers like that (examples include Alzadar, who disabled a terran using such a power, compared to Raztural, a dark templar and thus probably more powerful than a typical zealot, who disabled the same terran by backhanding her).

    That kind of thing seems to require training, and zealots get minimal training in the Khala.
    Kinetic power specifically addressed in BW screen:


    Also:
    The Protoss are such powerful psychics that they can inadvertently send out psychic "ripples" that are disruptive to other life forms. With careful training, High Templar learn to focus these ripples into a Storm of raw psychic energy that is capable of literally tearing apart the minds of lesser species.
    All protoss have some psionic power. Zealots focus their powers exclusively on the pursuit of war.
    We just don't see random Protoss, at all, that doesn't gives a chance of seeing them mind-killing anyone, but that doesn't means they cannot do it.

    The most obvious quote is this:
    "Sir...as I said, it was psychic, but it wasn't an attack. There was nothing hostile or harmful about it. Somehow, Ramsey managed to link our minds. Not just mine to his...all of our minds. Everyone in this immediate area. And not just thoughts, but...feelings, sensations. I -- "

    For the first time since Valerian had known the man, Starke seemed at a complete and utter loss for words. Valerian could easily believe it, if this was indeed what had happened. This was protoss psi-power, not human. Only a tiny fraction of humanity had any psychic ability at all, and only a small percentage of those could do what the ghosts could do. And from all accounts, even the most gifted, most finely trained human telepaths were pitiful compared to an ordinary, run-of-the-mill protoss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
    *Khalai = followers of the Khala. There's also the Khalai Caste. Confusing?
    Yeah, in the beginning, Khalai was the description for the artisans and inventors. Seems like someone had the "brillant" idea of giving the same name to the non-dark Protoss.

  5. #15

    Default Re: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norfindel View Post
    Do you readed somewhere that standard Protoss cannot do something?
    I haven't seen any lore saying the opposite either. There have been plenty of situations where such an ability would be useful, and they were simply not used.

    Because there's lore saying than a standard run-of-the-mill Protoss is more powerful than even the most gifted and finely trained human psychics.
    Isn't that Zamara's quote?

    Kinetic power specifically addressed in BW screen:
    That's Artanis. He's a named character. Or, more importantly, for universe purposes, a powerful character. You don't just give the Uraj to anyone.

    Also:
    Yes, they're powerful psychics, but you did notice that only high templar can use such powers. Other protoss can sometimes unleash such powers (eg dark templar, Tal'darim) but not with control. I don't think a zealot is going to start dishing out powers that might kill him and his fellows.

    We just don't see random Protoss, at all, that doesn't gives a chance of seeing them mind-killing anyone, but that doesn't means they cannot do it.
    I think we've seen plenty of situations where the ability to disable or kill an opponent at range would have been highly useful. Remember Fenix and the hydralisk? If his psi-blades (which are at least partially technology-powered) short out, why doesn't he just stun it or kill it? Or even enhance his shields? Or use telekinesis to throw it far enough away that he could escape?

    The most obvious quote is this:

    And from all accounts, even the most gifted, most finely trained human telepaths were pitiful compared to an ordinary, run-of-the-mill protoss.
    There's that other quote. I don't think I've seen proof to back that up, which is important since this is a character's thoughts and not stated universe facts. Characters often "think" wrong. (It's almost hysterical how many terrans think neural resocialization is robust, for instance.)

    Of course, the typical ghost has few powers by themselves; they can read minds and sense psionics, and that's it. I don't know if protoss can naturally sense psionics (we've seen ghosts sneak up on them a few times) but the typical protoss can mentally link with numerous others, already putting them beyond the typical ghost. But I don't see much evidence that the standard, generic zealot can match the more powerful ghosts, any more than I see evidence that even the most powerful ghosts can match a high templar.

    Ever since 2006, there's been an explosion of out-of-game lore, so we have been able to see protoss in combat in numerous situations. I don't think I've seen any evidence that a regular protoss has as much power as you're suggesting... or, at least, that they cannot control that much power.
    Last edited by Kimera757; 10-25-2009 at 09:55 AM.
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  6. #16

    Default Re: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

    I'm more than OK with Artanis's young age -- I think that's part of the point. He is young. He is in way over his head. And hopefully we'll see the consequences of this characterization addressed in Void.

    As for the age shift from SC1 to SC2, I agree with Archer. All we need to do is introduce plenty of new Protoss who are older, and make it obvious that Artanis, like Tassadar before him, is the exception that proves the rule.

    More than any other character, and not for the first time, I regret that they killed Aldaris. Not because he was necessarily my FAVORITE of the bunch, but because he filled such a necessary role in the Protoss character roster. Alas.
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  7. #17

    Default Re: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

    Have the ages gotten that much younger?

    Tassadar and Fenix were pretty young, especially the former. (Zeratul even explicitly pointed this out in Queen of Blades.) Of course, Aldaris and Raszagal were older; is that a ratio of about 2 young vs 3 older?

    Artanis and Selendis are young, but Zeratul isn't. They're basically the only protoss heroes yet and the ratio isn't that different. Of course, Artanis is almost a century younger than Tassadar, but even that got worked into his character (I think hero worship toward a younger person is pretty rare).
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  8. #18

    Default Re: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kimera757 View Post
    Have the ages gotten that much younger?

    Tassadar and Fenix were pretty young, especially the former. (Zeratul even explicitly pointed this out in Queen of Blades.) Of course, Aldaris and Raszagal were older; is that a ratio of about 2 young vs 3 older?

    Artanis and Selendis are young, but Zeratul isn't. They're basically the only protoss heroes yet and the ratio isn't that different. Of course, Artanis is almost a century younger than Tassadar, but even that got worked into his character (I think hero worship toward a younger person is pretty rare).
    None of the young characters are young in general, they're young in respect to their positions. Fenix, especially, being both older than Tassadar and a lower rank, is just your average Protoss guy, neither terribly old nor terribly young to hold the rank he did.

    A huge deal was made about Tassdar's age, and the recklessness that came with it. Now we have Artanis who is even younger and holds an even greater rank, and Selendis, who is EVEN YOUNGER and holds the same rank as Tassadar. I don't doubt that they'll address Artanis's age -- but Selendis?

    So yeah, there's quite a difference, and it does paint a somewhat skewed portion of Protoss society. Obviously 3 characters isn't going to cut it for the Protoss campaign so they're going to come up with plenty of others to fill out those ranks.
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  9. #19

    Default Re: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

    Obviously 3 characters isn't going to cut it for the Protoss campaign so they're going to come up with plenty of others to fill out those ranks.
    I think the council will fill this role most handily. The majority of them appear to be rather conservative and aged.

    Do we know hold old Selendis is, exactly?
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    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  10. #20

    Default Re: Should Artanis' Age be Retconned Up?

    Their is no way a sentient race would have a maturation time of 100 years. Its not evolutionarily viable. I would assume protoss become "teenagers" no more then at 30 years of age. They would probably enter adulthood as early as 50. At the same respect, its not viable a race has elders who are functionally useless for most physical tasks for hundred of years. Protoss probably dont become "elderly" probably at least until 800 or so years.

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