Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 21 to 28 of 28

Thread: Old School Analysis: The Overmind really WAS trying to destroy the protoss

  1. #21
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,988

    Default Re: Old School Analysis: The Overmind really WAS trying to destroy the protoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    In any event, there is no implication in the manual that the zerg will become perfect by assimilating the protoss specifically. They seek to become perfect by assimilating the strongest species in the universe, but "perfect" and "strongest" in this case are both arbitrary and situational. The zerg assimilated countless species like the slothien and mantis screamers, who are hardly the strongest species in the universe at first glance, and there is no way to predict when or if the zerg will ever qualify as perfect.
    "The Overmind's bio says "it exists to become the perfect life-form by assimilating the strongest species in the universe". The protoss are the strongest known species in the universe according to it, therefore the Overmind wants to assimilate them"

    They have purity of form and are strong enough according to the Overmind, which would complete the Xel'Naga's experiments if they could be merged with the zerg. Maybe there's a species in the Andromeda galaxy that's stronger than the protoss and has purity of form which would also make them a candidate, but this doesn't apply to Slothien or Mantis Screamers so I'm not sure what your point is with that.

    The immediate reason why the zerg are obsessed with the protoss is because the protoss constitute an existential threat, which should be obvious from reading the relevant passage in the manual. The protoss have both the means and the motivation to exterminate the zerg with ease. Whether they can/should be assimilated is a secondary concern by any sane ordering of priorities.
    Huh? They're not even in that part of the galaxy. The protoss don't even know about the zerg at that time. How are they an "existential threat"? The Overmind didn't travel thousands of lightyears to find them because it feels threatened, it traveled because it wants to assimilate them. The manual says so.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Old School Analysis: The Overmind really WAS trying to destroy the protoss

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    As for the accuracy of their home-made protoss, the overmind knows enough about the protoss to assume they have purity of form. You could assume that he understands what the requirements for such a thing are. If he knows the requirements, it's as simple as placing check-marks.
    Eh, if the Xel'Naga did have enough information to create instant-Protoss and the Zerg obtained this knowledge, it would kinda invalidate why the Zerg went to try and absorb the actual Protos,s wouldn't it? Obviously, that wasn't the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Yeah but do they know that dark Archons can exist or that the void can be manipulated this way? Do the old protoss master void energy enough to form dark archons? Do they even know about the void?
    Would these details be even meaningful? Archons and Dark Archons are "energy beings" at the end of the day. If the Xel'Naga really wanted "energy beings" they would've exhausted all scientific opportunities to at least try and get them before considering them failures and leaving. Afterall, they did wait for goodness knows how long before they lucked in by finding the Protoss in the first place. Regardless of societal quibbles getting in the way, it seems kinda blase that they would just abandon them if they knew the Protoss had the latent physical capacity to create "energy beings" if that was indeed what they were aiming for.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Meh, you could just say that the level of mastery was not advanced/refined enough during those days. XN were also psi fanatics; it's possible that they consider the void and evil energy or something. Being pure void energy would be then considered unsuitable to their own definition of perfection.
    But Xel'Naga seem to live and originate in a Void like dimension anyway according to Sc2. Besides, if the Xel'Naga considered Void energy "bad", they wouldn't have considered the Overmind/Zerg a success because the Overmind radiates energy that is similar to the Dark Templar (the Overmind specifically says this is how DTs do it harm). Indeed, the psionic potential of non-psi-link Protoss would be exactly what the Xel'Naga should've been focusing on based on your theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    The thing is that the protoss don't satisfy that at all. As I was saying, it's impossible unless you can change yourself. I can list examples again: in a gas world, the Protoss aren't adapted because they can't fly. In a jungle full of giant predators, the protoss would be prey without technology. Etc.. The only time where a protoss can be adapted to anything is when he's pure energy as an archon.
    The manual disagrees with you, I'm afraid. The Xel'Naga considered the Protoss the best life-form they could find in all their varied experiments on numerous worlds. They were stronger and faster than any other life-form they ever encountered.

    Being a "perfect life-form" doesn't necessarily entail being able to do or be everything, since the parameter of "life-form" implies limitations of some degree. On a gas planet, no sophisticated life-form can really exist or expected to survive in such an environment anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Who cares? What the Xel'Naga wanted no longer matters because they're dead and the Overmind is going to be the one to finish their experiments. Obviously the Overmind's conception of "perfection" is contextual and subjective, on top of him using flowery Abrahamic language to express what he wants.

    I thought it was obvious that unless "purity of form" shows up in your Merriam Webster, what the Overmind considers perfect and the literal dictionary definition of the word perfect clearly aren't the same.
    Good gods, this!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    In any event, there is no implication in the manual that the zerg will become perfect by assimilating the protoss specifically.
    I think you're confusing the Overmind's use of the word "perfect" as if it actually was referring to some objective, all-encompassing thing when all it really meant was a subjective one. Much as I love the Overmind character, I'm not blind to the fact that it runs on hubris, uses rhetoric and that it's not really a god.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The immediate reason why the zerg are obsessed with the protoss is because the protoss constitute an existential threat, which should be obvious from reading the relevant passage in the manual. The protoss have both the means and the motivation to exterminate the zerg with ease. Whether they can/should be assimilated is a secondary concern by any sane ordering of priorities.
    This is wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to begin... The Zerg motivation for doing absolutely anything is to incorporate other species into themselves to become top-dog - everything else stems from that primary motivation. This constancy of motivation is why they have purity of essence.

    From an outside perspective, the Protoss are in the act of self-destruction by the time the Overmind learns of their existence. There is no way the Protoss are a threat to anyone but themselves. The Overmind could've learned about the Protoss being divided and fighting themselves from the Xel'Naga as well. That they were at their weakest and billed as physically superior by the Xel'Naga would be the more likely reason the Overmind was spurred to go find them, not just to go kill them for the sake of killing them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Sandwich is still correct. The above quote states what the Protoss believed about the XN, not what the XN themselves would have said.
    Um, the first of the two quotes I provided comes from the Xel'Naga, or rather, the omniscient narrator laying out the Xel'Nagan thoughts on the matter. The second is the Protoss acquiescing to the fact that they were failures.

    There's more from the Zerg and Protoss history that unequivocally pounds home the idea that the Protoss were considered a failure to the Xel'Naga, but I don't need to quote anymore because one can just read it for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    This seems to imply that the end result of the XN experiments is infested Protoss, or somesuch. Not that anyone can really say for sure.
    It could also mean that the Overmind is continuing the Xel'Nagas experiments to create the ultimate life-form, but has subverted and twisted it into thinking that it's achieved by assimilating the Protoss.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  3. #23

    Default Re: Old School Analysis: The Overmind really WAS trying to destroy the protoss

    I'm frustrated with this argument so forgive me for not replying to every individual response.

    Extracts from the game script are hardly supporting evidence. The game contradicts the manual on numerous key plot points so it's better off ignored as Metzen's fanon/misinterpretation of Phinney's work. (I am crediting Starcraft's original lore to Phinney because Metzen explained in interview that his original idea was space vampires before Blizzard talked him out of it, so I have no reason to believe Metzen ever had a good idea.)

    Purity of whatever is an arbitrary concept prior to the SC2 retcons. It's a school of thought among the xel'naga and not the only one. You can't treat it like something that can be objectively measured and applied to multiple different species.

    Perfection is an arbitrary concept, and the manual never gives a time frame for when the Overmind expects to achieve it if ever. The idea that they will become perfect by assimilating the protoss is original to the game.

    The idea that the xel'naga would have continued their experiments on the protoss is original to the game, as the manual states they dismissed purity of form in favor of essence. There's no evidence in the manual that the zerg were completing anything by trying to combining two arbitrary quasi-religious concepts.

    All of that stuff is Metzen's fanon/misinterpretation. Or the zerg's quasi-religious beliefs if you're feeling charitable.

    The manual makes it clear that the Overmind was concerned with war against the protoss.

    Through dissecting the memories of the Xel’Naga, the Overmind was made aware of the myriad races that had at one time or another been influenced by the ancient race. The Xel’Naga had kept a detailed genetic history of each race, giving the Overmind a clear understanding of their respective strengths and weaknesses. Most importantly, the Overmind learned of an exceedingly powerful race that lived near the galaxy’s fringe known only as the Protoss. The Overmind knew then that the Protoss and the Zerg would eventually be caught in an inevitable, apocalyptic conflict.
    The Zerg left the lifeless, burning world of Zerus and laid waste to every planet they found along their path towards the Protoss Homeworld. As they progressed slowly through the trackless dark between the stars, the Zerg assimilated only the strongest of the races that they came across. The swarm continued to build steadily, ever-increasing in size and power. As they progressed, the Overmind sent out numerous deep-space probes that scouted ahead of the swarm, searching for new worlds to plunder.

    Despite innumerable victories, the Overmind was greatly disturbed. The Overmind was aware that the Protoss had become a highly psionic race, able to bend and warp the very fabric of reality to their whims. It sought a way to counter the awesome might of the Protoss, but found no answers among the genetic strains it devoured.
    The Overmind traveled to Aiur, eating everything on the way, because the zerg and protoss were destined to war. The text never specifies why. You can certainly draw the conclusion that the Overmind went on a quest to assimilate them like it does everything else, but it is clear from the text that the reality-warping protoss would squash them like... well, bugs. This regardless of whether the zerg initiated the war or not, since it was inevitable.

    The Overmind must destroy the threat the protoss pose, but it is driven to assimilate their flesh. These are the only conclusions we can draw that don't fall apart under Occam's razor by making needless postulates.

  4. #24
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,988

    Default Re: Old School Analysis: The Overmind really WAS trying to destroy the protoss

    Again, the protoss are threatening the Zerg in no way while they’re on Zerus. They’re in completely different parts of the galaxy so that makes absolutely no sense. Like, what even are you talking about? The manual clearly states the Overmind exists to assimilate the strongest species. It therefore went thousands of light years out of its way because it wanted something from them (strength and/or purity of essence), not because of “destiny”. Sorry but “destiny” is way dumber than what Metzen came up with. At least acknowledge your fanon as just that.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Old School Analysis: The Overmind really WAS trying to destroy the protoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Again, the protoss are threatening the Zerg in no way while they’re on Zerus. They’re in completely different parts of the galaxy so that makes absolutely no sense. Like, what even are you talking about? The manual clearly states the Overmind exists to assimilate the strongest species. It therefore went thousands of light years out of its way because it wanted something from them (strength and/or purity of essence), not because of “destiny”. Sorry but “destiny” is way dumber than what Metzen came up with. At least acknowledge your fanon as just that.
    The manual literally states: "The Overmind knew then that the Protoss and the Zerg would eventually be caught in an inevitable, apocalyptic conflict."

    The protoss have a history of racism and the whole "manifest destiny" shtick going for them even before the Aeon of Strife (when the xel'naga last had contact). It is reasonable for the Overmind to assume the protoss would exterminate the zerg even if the zerg did not initiate hostilities (fat chance of that happening, since their shtick is to consume the strongest species they find in never-ending pursuit of fabled perfection... surprise, surprise, the protoss almost certainly fit the bill).

    The Liberty's Crusade novel explains that the zerg describe the protoss as genetic xenophobes who exterminate any life that grows beyond their control or does not meet their standards of perfection, while the zerg by contrast are genetic survivors that hunt other species as food and raw materials. This is not stated in the manual, sure, but unlike Metzen it doesn't pointlessly contradict the manual.

    This traps the zerg in a seeming catch-22: either they can wait for the protoss to kill them for being ugly, or they can bring the fight to the protoss and get a nice pair of genes out of the ordeal assuming they can find a determinant that may not exist. No surprise they chose the latter, a la "do not go gently into that good night."

    We're arguing semantics at this point. We both know that we agree on the same basic things with regard to the zerg. Could we stop wasting each others' time, please?

  6. #26
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,988

    Default Re: Old School Analysis: The Overmind really WAS trying to destroy the protoss

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The manual literally states: "The Overmind knew then that the Protoss and the Zerg would eventually be caught in an inevitable, apocalyptic conflict."
    Yes, it's inevitable because the Overmind wants to assimilate the protoss, and it has to destroy their military to do that. The manual tells us the Overmind's motivation (to assimilate the strongest species), whereas your non-sequitur that it only went for the protoss because it felt threatened and that it was its "destiny" is out-of-the-blue and not in the manual.

    The protoss have a history of racism and the whole "manifest destiny" shtick going for them even before the Aeon of Strife (when the xel'naga last had contact). It is reasonable for the Overmind to assume the protoss would exterminate the zerg even if the zerg did not initiate hostilities (fat chance of that happening, since their shtick is to consume the strongest species they find in never-ending pursuit of fabled perfection... surprise, surprise, the protoss almost certainly fit the bill).

    The Liberty's Crusade novel explains that the zerg describe the protoss as genetic xenophobes who exterminate any life that grows beyond their control or does not meet their standards of perfection, while the zerg by contrast are genetic survivors that hunt other species as food and raw materials. This is not stated in the manual, sure, but unlike Metzen it doesn't pointlessly contradict the manual.

    This traps the zerg in a seeming catch-22: either they can wait for the protoss to kill them for being ugly, or they can bring the fight to the protoss and get a nice pair of genes out of the ordeal assuming they can find a determinant that may not exist. No surprise they chose the latter, a la "do not go gently into that good night."
    The same can be said for literally any other species they encounter, only it makes zero sense to assume this about the protoss given that by that point in time the Overmind has no clue about their military capabilities, society, or if they're even still alive and not wiped out by some meteor, disease, or hostile alien race. The determinant was also not a factor when the Overmind left to look for the protoss.

    Both the manual and game agree that the Overmind wants to assimilate the species that will most benefit the zerg. That is its motivation. Anything else you've come up with is pure fanon.
    Last edited by Gradius; 05-30-2018 at 04:12 PM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Old School Analysis: The Overmind really WAS trying to destroy the protoss

    Eh, if the Xel'Naga did have enough information to create instant-Protoss and the Zerg obtained this knowledge, it would kinda invalidate why the Zerg went to try and absorb the actual Protos,s wouldn't it?
    Well yeah, that's my original point What I said originally:

    In fact, the Zerg already possess the mean to create Protoss because they are masters of genetic engineering AND because they possess everything the XN know. So the current plot-line doesn't make much sense to me. Neither are the talks about merging both purity of essence with purity of form.

    So, if the zerg's goal has to be the assimilation of the Protoss then it needs to be for something other than getting their biological data. I'd propose instead that the zerg should want to assimilate the Protoss minds (and not bodies) for their psi-mastery
    Of course, this was before we argued on other stuff but it still stands that the protoss on paper aren't that special apart from that psi thing (and possibly the void). If you agree that this is the case, it makes sense to shift your focus of "purity of form", "perfect" and etc on psi related topics rather than physiology and etc.


    Would these details be even meaningful? Archons and Dark Archons are "energy beings" at the end of the day. If the Xel'Naga really wanted "energy beings" they would've exhausted all scientific opportunities to at least try and get them before considering them failures and leaving. Afterall, they did wait for goodness knows how long before they lucked in by finding the Protoss in the first place. Regardless of societal quibbles getting in the way, it seems kinda blase that they would just abandon them if they knew the Protoss had the latent physical capacity to create "energy beings" if that was indeed what they were aiming for.
    We're going in circle now. If a strong psi-link is fundamentally required to create archons and protoss can break away from the psi-link then you can never ascend the entire race to archons unless you can prevent individuality. If individuality is unpreventable then you can't ascend the entire race to archons which means that the protoss would be a failed creation. Maybe the Xel Naga did try some social engineering to ensure that the protoss don't break away (and there is obviously evidences of that). But when this failed to prevent individuality, they would be basically left to try to and change their biology and probably wipe out the entire race.

    This is why those details are meaningful. To support this version, the existence of dark archons must not be known/theorized. Alternatively, according to the wiki, it is said that Dark Archons are unstable and can't be stabilized for long. That's probably a better explanation.

    But Xel'Naga seem to live and originate in a Void like dimension anyway according to Sc2.
    I try to work with SC1 lore because I generally hate SC2 lore. The idea might be compatible with SC2 though but before I'd even try to adapt this with SC2, we'd need to brush up most of SC2's core story. Like, Amon left the protoss because they weren't going to submit to his plan but he can corrupt the psi-link and MC everyone int LotV? Surely he would have MCed the protoss before the rise of individuality? Too many stuff like that that needs to be explained.

    Besides, if the Xel'Naga considered Void energy "bad", they wouldn't have considered the Overmind/Zerg a success because the Overmind radiates energy that is similar to the Dark Templar (the Overmind specifically says this is how DTs do it harm). Indeed, the psionic potential of non-psi-link Protoss would be exactly what the Xel'Naga should've been focusing on based on your theory
    Fair enough. Would need another explanation to circumvent the Dark Archon issue. The stability mentioned earlier might be it. Not sure though.

    The manual disagrees with you, I'm afraid. The Xel'Naga considered the Protoss the best life-form they could find in all their varied experiments on numerous worlds.
    And yet, they are not adapted to any or most environments. You agreed previously that the manual describe purity of form as being adapted to any environment, you also agreed that the protoss are not adapted to any environment, right? You have to agree that there are other lifeforms that are adapted to more environment than the protoss(because I can give you an example such as the mantis screamer) and you have to agree that the Xel Naga likely encountered these lifeforms. If you agree with this, then how do you account the fact that the Xel Naga settled on the protoss? How do you account that the Xel Naga didn't give them wings, make them bigger and add claws or whatever? But instead, they sought to increase their psi powers. It has to be because psi is key to being adapted to any environment.

    They were stronger and faster than any other life-form they ever encountered.
    Stronger and faster at what? Under what scale? When you say stronger, you assume either fighting or lifting weight. When you say faster, you assume distance traveled by center of mass/time and both of these implied under the average atmospheric condition of the planet where that specie lives(or any planet where life as we know it can exist). Well... Mutalisks are huge. They can lift their entire weight in space by pushing against very little air pockets and they do it at ridiculous speed... They spit stuff that can kill any ground bound specie and destroy bloody spaceships with shields and whatever. Pretty sure that by most interpretations, mutalisks are the most perfect life form that this universe has if you don't talk about psi. If psi has no significance in the definition of perfect form then I don't know what to say other than it's stupid

    Being a "perfect life-form" doesn't necessarily entail being able to do or be everything
    If you're adapted to any environment, you can basically do everything.
    Last edited by sandwich_bird; 05-31-2018 at 12:48 PM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Old School Analysis: The Overmind really WAS trying to destroy the protoss

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Well yeah, that's my original point
    Your original point was that there was sufficient evidence to suggest that Xel'Naga could create insta-Protoss on the fly? That's a big assumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Of course, this was before we argued on other stuff but it still stands that the protoss on paper aren't that special apart from that psi thing (and possibly the void).
    Yeah but we're talking about purity of form and essence - which are not "special" in and of themselves. The Zerg maintaining their core/primary motivation for doing what they do despite changes being visited on them (their "purity of essence") isn't really "special" either, only their ability to assimilate and integrate and subvert alien material into their genome and improving themselves is. This ability is not what the Xel'Naga were really interested in.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    We're going in circle now. If a strong psi-link is fundamentally required to create archons and protoss can break away from the psi-link then you can never ascend the entire race to archons unless you can prevent individuality. If individuality is unpreventable then you can't ascend the entire race to archons which means that the protoss would be a failed creation. Maybe the Xel Naga did try some social engineering to ensure that the protoss don't break away (and there is obviously evidences of that). But when this failed to prevent individuality, they would be basically left to try to and change their biology and probably wipe out the entire race.
    So now the Xel'Nagas overall goal with the Protoss is to not just achieve/create "energy beings" from them but to make the whole entire race of Protoss into "energy beings"? The level of minutiae required to explain it is confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    And yet, they are not adapted to any or most environments. You agreed previously that the manual describe purity of form as being adapted to any environment, you also agreed that the protoss are not adapted to any environment, right? You have to agree that there are other lifeforms that are adapted to more environment than the protoss(because I can give you an example such as the mantis screamer) and you have to agree that the Xel Naga likely encountered these lifeforms. If you agree with this, then how do you account the fact that the Xel Naga settled on the protoss? How do you account that the Xel Naga didn't give them wings, make them bigger and add claws or whatever? But instead, they sought to increase their psi powers. It has to be because psi is key to being adapted to any environment.
    "These beings were incredibly adaptable to harsh natural conditions and climates. Their strength and speed were unparalleled amongst the other races known to the Xel'Naga."

    It ain't about being adapted to any and all environments, it's about being able to survive environments/situations that would normally kill any other life-form. I theorised that the Protoss "purity of form" is their physical structure being able to withstand punishment and not yield, bend or change to the elements or pressures being thrown against it over the long term (this is not to say they're impervious to physical harm mind you). This is in contrast to the Zerg "purity of essence", a mental or social structure being able to withstand punishment and not yield, bend or change to the elements or pressures being thrown against it over the long term. Because this "purity of form" meant the Protoss had mastered the physical aspect of survival, the Xel'Naga decided to see what they could do with their social structure next. That failed so the Xel'Naga concentrated on achieving purity of this aspect next with the Zerg.

    As such, Protoss lack purity of essence because their mental/social structure cannot withstand outside forces imposing on it whilst the Zerg lack purity of form because their physical structure constantly change due to being forced to integrate foreign aspects into it. In this light, those purities are complimentary to each other.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

Similar Threads

  1. Overmind's Vision
    By Gradius in forum StarCraft Universe Lore Discussion
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 05-06-2017, 02:56 PM
  2. Overmind's Voice - mod for SC2
    By Existor in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 08-29-2010, 07:04 PM
  3. protoswarrior's "PROOF" that Archons destroy Ultras in sc2 !
    By protoswarrior in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-21-2010, 08:24 AM
  4. Starcraft School in Korea
    By supersonic in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 09-13-2009, 09:05 PM
  5. Old school SC
    By The_Blade in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-24-2009, 12:58 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •