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Thread: 20 years of Starcraft

  1. #21

    Default Re: 20 years of Starcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The Zerg already had personalities in the form of cer-- screw it.
    The only cerebrate to have "personality" was Zasz and that was only selectively because it was railing specifically against Kerrigan seemingly having free reign. Without this foreign element that was Kerrigan, it's hard to fathom what conflict or personality would arise without feeling conceited in what is otherwise a unified Swarm. Daggoth, who is pretty dull personality-wise (I don't mean this with negative connotations mind you - I like Daggoth the way he is) and the Overmind, with it's droll affectation, are "boring" characters to most people.

    Besides, I'm just splaining the thought processes Metzen had at the time as to why Kerrigan was ultimately used in narrative as she was. It seemingly was for utilitarian purposes at the time and not much else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    It is a good thing my rip-off story went straight to the bugs invading Earth, rather than wasting words on explaining that the colonies were cut off from Earth then later revealing they really weren't.
    Eh, details. I see the value of introducing Earth in BW as being "necessary" to make the Terrans viable/continue as one of the three-way conflicts, given how the Terrans are roflstomped and clearly outmatched in SC1. Mengsk may be the new ruler of the Terrans and "all-important" in that regard - but there's not much left of them by then so it's kinda unrealistic for a three-way to keep going after Sc1. Granted this was not how Earth was actually implemented in BW though; they were instead made ultimately superfluous... which was even worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    It always has made little sense. SC was originally intended to be a three-way conflict, at least before the writers kept diluting the themes and forgetting what they wrote. That's why my rip-off combined the protoss and xel'naga into one species.
    My use of "apparently" was me commenting on the irony of Blizz themselves saying that a 4th power made little sense and yet they continued with this Hybrid/Xel'Naga path - albeit half-heartedly it seems because only the last third of the trilogy was about them ultimately anyway. It's a complete mess anyway - they obviously had no idea what direction to take the story in.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  2. #22

    Default Re: 20 years of Starcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Yeah but they didn't have to make it so that Amon was the one who did all the uplifting. Even if they HAD to put that point in there, what they could have done was this:

    The SC1 manual said that when the Xel'Naga began to depart Aiur, the Protoss weren't happy about this and rebelled. Hundreds of Xel'Naga were killed in the process, what what Blizzard could have said what was the Protoss ended up killing all the Xel'Naga loyal to the cycle they had been dedicated to, which meant the ones that survived were all the ones loyal to Amon.
    That was retconned so the Protoss were in the stone age at the time. The wiki is not reliable because it attempts to reconcile all iterations of canon even though the writers clearly had no idea what they were doing and retconned everything.

    I find it impossible to believe Amon was the leader of anything. He only wins and loses because the narrative says so. His plans make no sense. I have seen better writing in children's cartoons.

  3. #23

    Default Re: 20 years of Starcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That was retconned so the Protoss were in the stone age at the time. The wiki is not reliable because it attempts to reconcile all iterations of canon even though the writers clearly had no idea what they were doing and retconned everything.

    I find it impossible to believe Amon was the leader of anything. He only wins and loses because the narrative says so. His plans make no sense. I have seen better writing in children's cartoons.
    It was trying to take the lores from SC1 and SC2 and combine them. That's my plan as well once it's time I write another SC fanfic. Now yes they'll have to be retcons, but I'll keep those minimal.

    Having said that I did wish they had tried to explain Amon's past better.

  4. #24

    Default Re: 20 years of Starcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    It was trying to take the lores from SC1 and SC2 and combine them. That's my plan as well once it's time I write another SC fanfic. Now yes they'll have to be retcons, but I'll keep those minimal.

    Having said that I did wish they had tried to explain Amon's past better.
    Combining the lore would require extensive rewriting since most of the SC1 plot points make no sense in the context of SC2. In fact, several SC1 plot points make no sense in the context of BW. If Earth was going to show up and be invaded by the Zerg, why did the SC1 manual waste several paragraphs explaining than K-sec was completely cut off? The plot of SC2 is terrible on its own merits even without comparing it to SC1.

    You are better off writing a original setting that liberally rips-off the basic plot outline of SC, like I am doing. I have the benefit of hindsight and an appreciation for good writing.
    I think Starcraft needs rebooting. See "Enumerate" for details (links: timeline, full document, original forum thread).

  5. #25

    Default Re: 20 years of Starcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Combining the lore would require extensive rewriting since most of the SC1 plot points make no sense in the context of SC2. In fact, several SC1 plot points make no sense in the context of BW. If Earth was going to show up and be invaded by the Zerg, why did the SC1 manual waste several paragraphs explaining than K-sec was completely cut off? The plot of SC2 is terrible on its own merits even without comparing it to SC1.

    You are better off writing a original setting that liberally rips-off the basic plot outline of SC, like I am doing. I have the benefit of hindsight and an appreciation for good writing.
    To me, for all the retcons, I didn't feel the SC2 lore retconned things out of proportion that there's no way to mix it with the SC1 lore. Remember, I got into the whole SC universe from the SC2 lore (I didn't dive deeply into it all until almost a year after WoL was out).

    You can say that's an utter waste to look at it from the SC2 lore POV, but not all of us invested that much into the SC universe and not in that sense. Having said that I hadn't been too happy for HotS's lore as it forgot things stated from WoL, or interpreted them in the wrong way.

  6. #26

    Default Re: 20 years of Starcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    You can say that's an utter waste to look at it from the SC2 lore POV, but not all of us invested that much into the SC universe and not in that sense. Having said that I hadn't been too happy for HotS's lore as it forgot things stated from WoL, or interpreted them in the wrong way.
    I said SC2 is bad on its own merits, without comparing it to SC1. Most other SC2 fans fully acknowledge this.

    I did not get into the lore until a couple years ago, and I still came to the conclusion that it was marred by bad writing. Watching WoL made me cringe and I had no clue who Raynor even was. The franchise needs rebooting if it is to have a viable future.
    Last edited by Mislagnissa; 04-04-2018 at 07:35 AM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: 20 years of Starcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    To me, for all the retcons, I didn't feel the SC2 lore retconned things out of proportion that there's no way to mix it with the SC1 lore. Remember, I got into the whole SC universe from the SC2 lore (I didn't dive deeply into it all until almost a year after WoL was out).
    If SC1 was remade as a prequel to SC2, it would bear little resemblance to the original. To add insult to injury, it would probably be inconsistent with the plot of SC2 (which is inconsistent with itself, of course).

    Among other things, the Zerg immortality has been retconned in an interview with Dustin Browder where he states Kerry will keep resurrecting unless all her bases are destroyed. This completely invalidates the plot of episodes 2 and 3. Furthermore, cerebrates have more or less been retconned out of existence in favor of abathur, brood mothers and pack leaders. The only mention of the word "cerebrate" is in the recap intro of LotV, and no explanation is given to what a cerebrate is.

    So here's my attempt at predicting Blizzard's idiot thought processes for the plot of a remake for consistency with SC2:

    Episode 1 consists entirely of Mengsk being a cackling villain who betrays Kerry and Ray because he is evil.

    In Episode 2, the Zerg cast and motivations would be unrecognizable. The Overmind would be explaining how he intends to betray the idiot Amon, take control of the hybrids, and conquer the universe or something. Kerry wholeheartedly endorses this plan and all the other bland and unmemorable Zerg characters fawn over her because the writers masturbate to Kerry.

    In Episode 3, the judicators would be portrayed as idiots at the mercy of the Zerg until Tass and the dark Templar save the day.

    I think Brood War would probably be retconned out of continuity because it contributes absolutely nothing and is poorly written drek. Even the recap intro video of LotV sums up the entirety of BW in a sentence or two, which makes it obvious the writers do not give a crap about it. Here's my attempt at Blizzard's idiotic remake:

    BW is reduced to a few missions of DLC, where Kerry teams up with Raynor and Zeratul to fight some new villains named the UED for no logical reason before flying away and twiddling their thumbs for four effing years.


    EDIT: In case it is not obvious, I have very good reasons for pursuing a reboot of the franchise. The writing of BW and SC2 is just awful.

    EDIT: To refresh my memory I looked up the video for the LotV story so far, and sure enough the writers butchered the plot of the original SC/BW.

    For nearly 300 years, humans thought they were alone in the Koprulu sector. / They were wrong. / The zerg emerged, seeking to consume all in their path. / And before long the protoss, a highly advanced alien race, began wiping out infested worlds, burning zerg and terran alike. / A three-way war… unlike anything humanity had ever faced… / …erupted almost overnight.

    All the while… a human civil war raged. / Marshal Jim Raynor vowed to oppose the corrupt dictator Arcturus Mengsk for the betrayal of the woman he loved… Sarah Kerrigan.

    Kerrigan: Uh, boys? How about that evac?

    Raynor: Damn you, Arcturus! Don't do this.

    Mengsk: It's done. Helmsman, signal the fleet and take us out of orbit. Now!

    Kerrigan, a loyal operative, was left to die at the hands of the zerg. / But the zerg had other plans. / They transformed her… and unleashed her psionic power upon the Koprulu sector… / …searching for their real objective… / The protoss homeworld of Aiur.

    The protoss were unaware of this danger… and slow to respond. / Their rulers, the Conclave, had dispatched Executor Artanis to hunt for Tassadar… / …a commander who had refused to wipe out infested terran worlds.

    They crossed paths with a dark templar mystic, whose kind was considered heretics by the Conclave. / Through great effort, Zeratul convinced Tassadar and Artanis that he was not their enemy. / Together they rallied more protoss from both factions against the zerg. / Despite the Conclave’s fury, they achieved significant victories against the Swarm.

    But when Zeratul struck down one of the Overmind’s Cerebrates… / …his own mind was left vulnerable. / From his thoughts, the Overmind gleaned Aiur’s true location… / …and the Swarm descended upon the protoss homeworld… / …with all their might and fry.

    It was Tassadar who kept the templar from extinction that day. / Using the power of both the templar and the dark templar… / He sacrificed himself to kill the Overmind.

    Aiur was lost. / …but Artanis led the survivors to the dark templar’s homeworld of Shakuras. / Old prejudices were set aside. / The templar were now in the dark templar’s debt.

    Without the Overmind, the swarm fractured. / Kerrigan sought control of all the zerg… / …even enlisting the aid of old friends and enemies like Raynor, Mensk, and Zeratul.

    Once her rule was uncontested… / The Queen of Blades betrayed them all… / Billions of humans and protoss were killed. / The zerg stood unchallenged, but to the relief of all… / The war seemed to end there.

    Zeratul suspected the zerg had fallen under the control of dark forces. / He uncovered prophecies stating that an ancient entity, Amon… / …was attempting to merge protoss and zerg life forms into an unholy hybrid. / And that this evil might already have control… / …of Kerrigan and her power.

    It was during this time that Executor Artanis, hailed as a hero… / …was made leader of both the templar and the dark templar. / As Hierarch, Artanis united both factions… / …and promised to one day reclaim the glory they had lost on Aiur.
    This "story so far" suggests the terran civil war was between Raynor and Mengsk, rather than between the Confederacy and the rebels. It reorders key events (e.g. placing Zasz's death after Zeratul meets with Artanis) and outright ignores the greater context in which these events took place. The brood war is relegated to nothing more than a footnote that makes no sense in this context.

    So when I say that Blizzard would completely butcher the story of SC1/BW if remaking it as a consistent prequel to SC2, I was being charitable. They butchered it even worse than my initial suggestion.
    Last edited by Mislagnissa; 04-04-2018 at 08:17 AM.
    I think Starcraft needs rebooting. See "Enumerate" for details (links: timeline, full document, original forum thread).

  8. #28

    Default Re: 20 years of Starcraft

    I don't understand the cerebrate wipe. It was part of stone agreement between Blizzard and Games Workshop to distinguish the zerg and Tyranids, something to do with the Norn Queens. But Brood Mothers only resemble the Tyranid Norn Queens even more, not less, than Cerebrates.

  9. #29

    Default Re: 20 years of Starcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    EDIT: In case it is not obvious, I have very good reasons for pursuing a reboot of the franchise. The writing of BW and SC2 is just awful.

    EDIT: To refresh my memory I looked up the video for the LotV story so far, and sure enough the writers butchered the plot of the original SC/BW.
    I felt LotV was their attempt to try to remedy the problems in HotS, so I gave them that. If only they had been smarter with HotS.

  10. #30

    Default Re: 20 years of Starcraft

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    I don't understand the cerebrate wipe. It was part of stone agreement between Blizzard and Games Workshop to distinguish the zerg and Tyranids, something to do with the Norn Queens. But Brood Mothers only resemble the Tyranid Norn Queens even more, not less, than Cerebrates.
    I do not understand it either. Nothing about that makes any sense.

    The relevant similarity between the tyranids and zerg in this context is that both have hive fleets or broods named after monsters from Earth mythology: hive fleet leviathan versus the leviathan brood, for example. Blizzard did not change that, and actually created more similarities as you said.

    Cerebrates are copies of the brain bugs from Starship Troopers. The tyranids have "synapse creatures" in the form of warriors and hive tyrants, but the zerg analogue are the overlords and queens. Even the primal zerg pack leaders are closer to the tyranid synapse creatures than the brain bugs. The brood mothers resemble both the tyranid norn queens and the alpha concept art of more insectoid protoss, and have no resemblance to brain bugs.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    I felt LotV was their attempt to try to remedy the problems in HotS, so I gave them that. If only they had been smarter with HotS.
    Which problems? From where I am standing LotV did not fix anything and only created more problems.

    Considering the disproportionate popularity of minor characters like Tychus, Abathur and Alarak, the fans of SC never wanted the bland hero narrative we got. They seemingly wanted a bunch of anti-heroes and outright villains as the protagonists.

    Every installment of the series has essentially been a completely new story shoehorned into the brand, mutilating the lore in the process. Every single sequel has gone out of its way to sabotage the conflict of its predecessor and pointlessly rewrite the motivations and histories of its factions.

    In SC1 the zerg attacked the terrans with the intent to weaponize their latent psychic powers as a trump card against the protoss. While this plot point was seemingly forgotten in the game, the zerg still intended to assimilate the protoss and take over the universe.

    In BW, the zerg's intent to assimilate the protoss is completely forgotten in favor of making them Kerry's personal army in her cartoonish evil overlord quest. The addition of Duran's hybrid plot suggests that the zerg's motive to assimilate the protoss was forgotten or retconned away.

    In SC2, the zerg's original intent to assimilate the protoss is retconned as being impossible and then the writers contradict themselves by introducing hybrids. There is no logical difference between an assimilated protoss and a hybrid: either zerg and protoss genes are compatible or they are not, but you cannot have it both ways.

    The entire social structure and history of the protoss is tossed aside: their history is retconned so that all their achievements occur after the aeon of strife, they are retconned from being in a renaissance to being generic space elves declining because Tolkien did it first, their thousand world empire is reduced to a single planet in the K-sec, their tribal traditions are forgotten, their explicit ethnic diversity is replaced by pallid clones, their caste system is abolished, etc.

    The SC lore is not salvageable. There is nowhere to go from here. The only sequel we got was Nova and the Niadra comic, and those felt blatantly artificial. There is no logical reason for the three races to ever interact.

    The zerg no longer want to assimilate everything and could not if they did. As of SC2 human genes are completely worthless to the zerg (in contrast to SC1 alpha where those genes were key to the war effort) and protoss cannot be assimilated because plot contrivance (in contrast to SC1 where the zerg intended to assimilate the protoss to become perfect). In fact they have absolutely no purpose to exist beyond eating garbage like the primal zerg do.

    Terrans have no reason to interact with the protoss. The beta website suggested that terrans were jealous of the bountiful worlds claimed by the protoss, but as of SC2 the protoss only hold Aiur which is located in the K-sec. They no longer have a reason to wage civil war because Mengsk was the only evil person to ever exist. Gag me with a spork!

    The protoss have permanent peace because they severed their telepathic internet, which was superfluous anyway since they were unhappy with it or something similarly stupid. They cannot reproduce anymore and are slowly going extinct or something, but who cares about that? The writers will probably forget it later.

    I can only imagine how Blizzard will put together Starcraft 3, if they ever do.

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