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Thread: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

  1. #21

    Default Re: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

    I was scrolling earlier today and thought somebody drew a Sandslash...

  2. #22
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo View Post
    Eh, I agree with the OP on the "sweating out feces" thing, that's just stupid "the dur its fiction" is not a good enough excuse for that.

    there's certain levels of disbelief that can't be overcome.
    It's not excused because it's fiction, it's excused because they already have huge power sources like the khala and void. Them breathing, having mouths, nipples, etc, are literally all vestigial traits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    There is a difference between taking real biology to absurd extremes, disregarding any semblance of real science, and not trying to explain the science because any efforts would fail.

    Zerg biology is rarely explained in sufficient detail to contradict real science and what little is explained is often too alien to really quantify in terms of real science.
    I'm not sure if you've noticed, but StarCraft isn't hard sci fi.
    - biological telepathy is a pseudoscience and will never be real
    - An ultralisk would collapse on its own weight and not be able to feed itself
    - zerg can't assimilate alien genetic material because it might not be DNA, it might be opposite-handed, and they'd have no clue how to translate it. They'd have to watch the organism grow/develop.
    - psionic storms violate the laws of physics, the khala and void are not real-world phenomenon.
    - archons
    - the physics we need to overcome to go FTL is still in the realm of fantasy; the exotic matter needed only exists in math equations. Wormholes haven't been seen either and would be too unstable. And an Alcubierre drive would destroy a star system from the build up of particles after exiting the trip, and there's no way to turn the thing on or off since signals can't reach outside the ship.

    But protoss metabolism is at the top of your list? Really? :P

    You sound like I do when I get into a tizzy about people disagreeing with me when I am really just being paranoid. Why is it stupid? That feels awfully arbitrary. I mean, before the retcons everybody seemed perfectly happy to assume the protoss had mouths somewhere else, or IDK tiny mouths in their skin or something.
    It's stupid because there's no evidence for it and they already have other sources of energy. I have just as much evidence that they have a hidden third arm. I've been around since 2002 and I have not seen anybody mention a hidden mouth until you.

    That's not remotely comparable. Sweating a few pounds of diarrhea every day would be unimaginably horrific, like "punishment in hell" horrific.
    You get that they don't eat, right? Why would there be diarrhea? They have purity of form so I'm imagining them being so insanely efficient that they are constantly recycling molecules like ATP, oxidizing agents, etc.

    There was no implication that the Protoss are sustained by space magic or otherwise autotrophic. See, the different evolutionary pressures on autotrophs and heterotrophs mean that it is impossible for autotrophs to maintain complex nervous systems. If the Protoss evolved from autotrophs, then they would have lost their photosynthesis to become more energy-intensive heterotrophs. If the Protoss evolved from heterotrophs into autotrophs, then they would lose their organs and muscles and so forth because those are not efficient for autotrophs to have. Their bodies should deteriorate until they are nothing more than mindless plants attached to their pylons and the remnants of their civilization.

    Protoss cannot be both autotrophic and animals with a civilization. It simply is not feasible.
    How is there no implication that they're not sustained by space magic? That's the whole point of the race. Even the manual says the dark templar had to alter their biology after being cut off from the Khala. Also, your comparison to textbook biological evolution is completely irrelevant when they have other magical aliens modifying their genome over millennia.

    There is nothing in the lore to suggest the Protoss do not eat prior to the photosynthesis retcon.
    Other than the total lack of a mouth?

    You're insanely hung up on this sunlight thing, which doesn't even have to be a retcon or their main source of energy. They probably need sunlight for some important metabolic processes or to produce vitamin D without which they'll become frail and die. But protoss physiology hasn't been explained enough to the point where we can 100% say sunlight is their only source of energy.

    Also, that revised protoss looks like a joke, I'm sorry. Imagine Tassadar talking to you and looking like that thing lmao.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    I like your assessment of the ancient zerg biology, but we still have to square it with what we see of the modern-era Zerus, which doesn't seem nearly as inhospitable to carbon based life. Its possible Zerus underwent a Siderian oxidation event similar to Earth's. Perhaps the ancient zerg, then obligate anaerobic organisms, were able to acclimate to this environment by assimilating aerobic life. Oxygen would make for a better source of energy for their metabolism anyways.
    I generally ignore the SC2 retcons. They are generally pointless and stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Photosynthesis as we know it maybe. Saying that it's impossible according to the scientific examples and knowledge we have is the most pointless position you could ever take in a magical universe. You could only debate that it doesn't make sense if there were facts in that universe that would contradict that possibility. Your first argument is that they used to be hunters. Hell for all we know, maybe they hunted some fictive species that have light emitting organs or something.



    They're perfect in form, they've been enhanced and they have magic abilities... nothing is impossible. You don't talk about how they store the energy. You don't know how efficient their metabolism is. You don't know if sunlight is their only source of energy. etc etc etc. There's no point to this argument because again, all you know is that they eat sunlight.




    Explicitly stating? This is the only paragraph that would show hints of surprise:



    "Alarming discovery" is far from meaning "surprised due to superior genetic engineering skills".



    If they had all of their knowledge and skills, then why would they need a determinant in the first place? They would most likely have the code to produce a Protoss because if the XN enhanced the protoss, it is likely that they possessed the genetic information of the protoss. They must at least do partially if anything. For some unknown reason they can't though. Whatever that reason is, it might also be the same reason why photosynthesis, as used by the protoss, is not something that is so easily done. That is, even for masters of genetic manipulation.



    Fair observation but this is more of a rant against the writing direction than an argument against the possibility of photosynthesis These novels aren't canon anyways.



    Again, fair observation though, like I said, we don't know how their internal biology works at all. The breathing motion doesn't have to be related to typical animal breathing. If they have no orifices, then possibly their skin can breath. Maybe their facial skin is much thinner than the rest of their body which would explain the gas masks.

    Where does the field manual cites that anyways? I don't remember that. Wouldn't surprise me though.



    I'd be fine with this. Very impractical to eat if that is where you're going but otherwise that's a nice "hidden" mouth.

    I don't like the sucking idea though. I find it very lame.




    Most would disagree with you on this. Their ninja style is part of the appeal. But again, it doesn't need practical sense. Your drawing conclusions too far.



    Well there you go, maybe that's why they hide it they wouldn't want to insult your superior fashion senses



    I don't even know where he got that anyways. Who said that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    It's not excused because it's fiction, it's excused because they already have huge power sources like the khala and void. Them breathing, having mouths, nipples, etc, are literally all vestigial traits.


    I'm not sure if you've noticed, but StarCraft isn't hard sci fi.
    - biological telepathy is a pseudoscience and will never be real
    - An ultralisk would collapse on its own weight and not be able to feed itself
    - zerg can't assimilate alien genetic material because it might not be DNA, it might be opposite-handed, and they'd have no clue how to translate it. They'd have to watch the organism grow/develop.
    - psionic storms violate the laws of physics, the khala and void are not real-world phenomenon.
    - archons
    - the physics we need to overcome to go FTL is still in the realm of fantasy; the exotic matter needed only exists in math equations. Wormholes haven't been seen either and would be too unstable. And an Alcubierre drive would destroy a star system from the build up of particles after exiting the trip, and there's no way to turn the thing on or off since signals can't reach outside the ship.

    But protoss metabolism is at the top of your list? Really? :P


    It's stupid because there's no evidence for it and they already have other sources of energy. I have just as much evidence that they have a hidden third arm. I've been around since 2002 and I have not seen anybody mention a hidden mouth until you.


    You get that they don't eat, right? Why would there be diarrhea? They have purity of form so I'm imagining them being so insanely efficient that they are constantly recycling molecules like ATP, oxidizing agents, etc.


    How is there no implication that they're not sustained by space magic? That's the whole point of the race. Even the manual says the dark templar had to alter their biology after being cut off from the Khala. Also, your comparison to textbook biological evolution is completely irrelevant when they have other magical aliens modifying their genome over millennia.


    Other than the total lack of a mouth?

    You're insanely hung up on this sunlight thing, which doesn't even have to be a retcon or their main source of energy. They probably need sunlight for some important metabolic processes or to produce vitamin D without which they'll become frail and die. But protoss physiology hasn't been explained enough to the point where we can 100% say sunlight is their only source of energy.

    Also, that revised protoss looks like a joke, I'm sorry. Imagine Tassadar talking to you and looking like that thing lmao.
    Okay, the "space magic" excuse doesn't fix anything. We might as well let anything go at that point. Why not add demons and dwarves too?

    1) Blizzard are idiots and their ideas are shit. You are sullying yourselves by defending that shit.

    2) Starcraft is, or at least was, a military science fiction setting fairly grounded in a somewhat realistic world. It was not a fantasy setting with magic and wizards and shit.

    3) It doesn't matter if Protoss draw power from khala or void. They would still be subject to the same pressures as all other autotrophs. They would evolve into mindless fungi attached to the ruins of their civilization. That said, I am okay with them warping in food through the psi matrix.

    4) Psychic vampires are way cooler than some new age crystal nonsense. It ties in with the food warping: they drain food from storage through the psi matrix. It explains how they would survive in modern times without a psi matrix nearby. Eating humans in desperation would be an awesome plot point.

    5) hand and foot mouths are effing cool! No argument.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

    EDIT: Also to clear up any misconceptions:

    The DT with gills was NOT intended to be a hidden mouth. The mouths I suggested were in the hands and feet.

    I KNOW the hunchback protoss redesign does not lend itself to a warrior poet race. I actually said beneath the quote that I thought a predator should have been drawn instead. Something like this:

    https://marcuscolvard.deviantart.com...-Art-602437727

  5. #25

    Default Re: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

    EDIT: Actually, why not go further? The protoss are already lifeless, dead-eyed statues who speak in bland dramatic readings, so let's just remove their faces entirely!

    https://gcrev.deviantart.com/art/Amp...pt-2-539977755

    Having no facial features would immediately set them apart from humans and zerg, who both have expressive faces most of the time.

  6. #26
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Okay, the "space magic" excuse doesn't fix anything. We might as well let anything go at that point. Why not add demons and dwarves too?
    Because demons and dwarves are on an entirely different level than you not being able to accept that conventional evolution won't apply when the most advanced race in the universe manipulates your genetics.

    1) Blizzard are idiots and their ideas are shit. You are sullying yourselves by defending that shit.
    Didn't like the manual or SC1 or SC2? Cool, go write for some other universe then. Why are you here? Clearly you do like StarCraft more than anything else on the market right now.

    2) Starcraft is, or at least was, a military science fiction setting fairly grounded in a somewhat realistic world. It was not a fantasy setting with magic and wizards and shit.
    It's sci-fi that's as soft as pudding. How tf are archons and bugs that shrug off hypersonic spikes fairly grounded in a somewhat realistic world? Don't make me laugh.

    The appeal for me was always that the realism of the plot offset the fantastical nature of the setting and that it didn't go too off the rails with space magic (until SC2).

    3) It doesn't matter if Protoss draw power from khala or void. They would still be subject to the same pressures as all other autotrophs. They would evolve into mindless fungi attached to the ruins of their civilization.
    Nope. They'd evolve into whatever the Xel'Naga wanted because that was the plot.

    4) Psychic vampires are way cooler than some new age crystal nonsense. It ties in with the food warping: they drain food from storage through the psi matrix. It explains how they would survive in modern times without a psi matrix nearby. Eating humans in desperation would be an awesome plot point.

    5) hand and foot mouths are effing cool! No argument.
    And there's still not a shred of evidence that they have a hidden mouth vs a hidden arm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    EDIT: Actually, why not go further? The protoss are already lifeless, dead-eyed statues who speak in bland dramatic readings, so let's just remove their faces entirely!

    https://gcrev.deviantart.com/art/Amp...pt-2-539977755

    Having no facial features would immediately set them apart from humans and zerg, who both have expressive faces most of the time.
    Actually looks kinda cool.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Because demons and dwarves are on an entirely different level than you not being able to accept that conventional evolution won't apply when the most advanced race in the universe manipulates your genetics.
    In other words, "fuck you, that's how." Just admit that it's your arbitrary opinion and if the story had been written slightly different (IDK, Protoss looking more like Sangheilli than they already do) you'd think the idea of eating khala/void was stupid. Honestly, after arguing with you over this trivial fictional story I think I have an inkling how others feel about my rabid obsession with Enumerate.

    I prefer to make Protoss psychic vampires because it opens up plots involving food shortages and cannibalism. The sort of thing that adds a veneer of realism to briefings. I'll try to lookup the last campaign I remember had mentions of food shortages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Actually looks kinda cool.
    Finally, something we can agree on.
    I think Starcraft needs rebooting. See "Enumerate" for details (links: timeline, full document, original forum thread).

  8. #28
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

    I mean, no, not really. So far this conversation has boiled down to you being unable to accept that xelínaga interfered in protoss evolution, giving them the traits that made them interesting to begin with. Youíre sitting here talking about how they canít meet their energy requirements without ingesting food as if creating lightning storms with your mind is something an organism could ever do.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

    I just rediscovered the reference I was thinking of after an hour on youtube. It was The Gallantry custom campaign from 2001, which had voice acting so the author clearly knew what they were doing. Mission 01 mentions food supplies, running low on bengalaas meat, and it hasn't rained in a while.

    Jay borino plays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuoxsmVt4BA

    Feel free to spazz out about heresy or whatever. I have to go to bed now.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Protoss photosynthesis is ridiculous

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    I mean, no, not really. So far this conversation has boiled down to you being unable to accept that xel’naga interfered in protoss evolution, giving them the traits that made them interesting to begin with. You’re sitting here talking about how they can’t meet their energy requirements without ingesting food as if creating lightning storms with your mind is something an organism could ever do.
    This conversation has been inane. It doesn't matter what kind of make believe games you play, I think khala/void-eating protoss is silly and that psychic vampires are cool. I will write loads of fiction depicting breakfast at protoss homes and drink your tears as you cry heresy and tell me I can't have fun. insert sarcasm. I'm tired and going to bed. Have fun.

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