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Thread: Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

  1. #31

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Not the Nova DLC. I got the impression Blizzard wanted to close the book on Kerry and focus on other characters. Which I would have applauded if their writing was not typically crappy.
    So you (almost) applaud that campaign which does exactly what I was telling you to do? I'm confused.

    Phinneyverse/Enumerate is about encouraging creativity in the custom campaigns while allowing them to share a single universe.
    Ok but it's not like all campaigns will be magically compatible because you start using an alternate universe. What if I use your lore as a basis but still bring back all the things you hate XD Just under different names/flavours of course.

    But anyways, instead of pitching Enumerate, why don't you pitch SC1's manual? Why not ask people to reboot everything but by using the SC1 manual as the base instead? Every fan already knows it which means that there is no need to read 150 pages to make sure whatever you come up with will fit the semi-arbitrary guidelines.. It's enough of a blank slate to to tell whatever stories you might like. I'm sure whoever is interested in making custom campaigns would be a lot more willing under those circumstances.

  2. #32
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    I mean if Enumerate was a good idea, map makers would have started using it already and the thread wouldn't have died on battle.net. Unfortunately it's 2 years later and the thread is dead and there's a grand total of zero campaigns that I know that have used it.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    But anyways, instead of pitching Enumerate, why don't you pitch SC1's manual? Why not ask people to reboot everything but by using the SC1 manual as the base instead? Every fan already knows it which means that there is no need to read 150 pages to make sure whatever you come up with will fit the semi-arbitrary guidelines.. It's enough of a blank slate to to tell whatever stories you might like. I'm sure whoever is interested in making custom campaigns would be a lot more willing under those circumstances.
    I thought that is what I was doing. I get what you mean though, which is why I only quoted the timeline and zerg tl;dr since they distill all the important plot points. I have not read through all 150 pages myself and many of the details are not particularly relevant. The only vitally important details are: no QoB, no Duran, no UED, and Zeratul dies instead of Tassadar. It saves me time on thinking up my own timeline: all I have to do is pick a point in the timeline and start writing a story set at that point which takes advantage of the opportunities available then.

    Without the timeline, we would still have the same problem afflicting current custom campaigns where each one goes off in its own direction that is not compatible with others. Enumerate provides an overview of major historical periods in which custom campaigns may be set, while being flexible enough to permit a wide variety of stories. ToxicDefiler clearly went to a lot of trouble to pack in as many plot hooks as possible.

    I disagree with certain details in Enumerate, like the rewrite of the Zerg queens or Nerazim relying on sign language, but the general metaplot is something I can easily get behind. There is lots of detail about Terran and Protoss cultures, but it is the sort of thing that will not feature in most campaigns unless faction or co-op commander special mechanics are intended to be showcased. I am sure unique units or modified tech trees for the Umojans, KMC, or specific Confederate noble families might appeal to some people, but it seems hardly vital to include them in every campaign (unless they're included in a mod).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    I mean if Enumerate was a good idea, map makers would have started using it already and the thread wouldn't have died on battle.net. Unfortunately it's 2 years later and the thread is dead and there's a grand total of zero campaigns that I know that have used it.
    Are you sure that's not because Starcraft community was already on the decline or the SC2 editor is hell to work with? No one else has advanced an idea for a shared universe. Every custom campaign is going in its own direction. There are a couple dozen custom campaigns total for Starcraft 2, including ones that were cancelled or never finished. There are at least 200 custom campaigns for Starcraft 1 (not counting lost to internet decay), most of them completed.

    ToxicDefiler replied last April that he would revisit the project at some point after he forgot about it. Honestly, the sheer size is probably the only thing that kept it from becoming more popular. Walls of text are imposing, no?



    So let's spitball ideas. Don't worry about reading beyond the timeline and Zerg summary. Is anyone inspired to write a story set somewhere in that timeline or pursue the presented plot hooks?

    My only problem is that I cannot decide which plot hook to explore first. Should I focus on a Zerg brood infesting a fringe colony, a tribe of Nerazim fighting off mysterious nightmarish invaders, rebels fighting the Dominion while secretly funded by the Umojans, or a cerebrate trying to survive the brood wars? All of those are explicitly given as plot hooks.

    I am biased in favor of Zerg or Protoss PoV, but there are too many theaters to choose from. The freedom of choice is paralyzing.
    I think Starcraft needs rebooting. See "Enumerate" for details (links: timeline, full document, original forum thread).

  4. #34
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    The editor is hard as hell to use, but an external document to adhere to only adds another hoop to jump through. That's why most campaigns have just worked with existing canon or went off on their own.

    You should just make something for StarCraft: Remastered. It's a hell of a lot easier and people are playing it again.

    I vote for Cerebrate trying to survive brood war.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    So if I understand you guys correctly, you want the series to remain trapped in a tiny, stagnant box where Kerry, Raynor and Mengsk are the only characters of consequence, despite the massive size and populations of the Koprulu sector and Protoss space? And if anyone wants to tell stories about other characters, you want them to set those in another far flung region of space unconnected to the Koprulu sector?
    This is probably the time to point out that my series is about hanging out with Judicator Aldaris.

    Um, no, you're not paying attention. I'm saying (and I'm pretty sure others are too) that canon is that Kerrigan is a part of the story, like it or not. You are perfectly fine to write whatever you want, and we write/map what we want. We're simply saying that a reboot with Kerrigan removed isn't strictly necessary or desirable. Kerrigan, Mengsk, and Raynor technically speaking are the main characters, but that doesn't mean that the other character didn't get plenty of time to do their stuff, or that they can't be primary characters later on.

    Read da posts.

    The Nova DLC is actually decent.
    Seriously, Gradius? Maybe the maps are good, but the characters are so dry and stale. They're empty husks of people.


    Y'know, Mags, I'm feeling lazy. I don't really care to read a long thing about an alternate canon. What do you as an individual want to write?
    Last edited by Nissa; 11-20-2017 at 05:27 PM.


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Why are you calling out Phinney's backstory? You should be giving your appropriate dues and referring to Enumerate's actual creator, ToxicDefiler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The idea is that map makers could set stories in the same universe, rather than an unconnected morass of distant prequels (e.g. Origins), various flavors of sequels (e.g. Replicant, Noir, Wrath of the Tal'darim), tangential stories set in far flung regions of space (e.g. Annihilation, Odyssey), really bizarre alternate universes (e.g. Legacy of the Confederation, Time Convergence), or stories which cannot possibly fit anywhere in canon (e.g. Proditor, Vortex of the Void).
    Admirable as the intent is and being detailed as it is, it still is fanon at the end of the day and people will either take it or leave it. You can say it's supposed to be the canon as much as you want but it's all just fanon and should be appreciated as such. I like a good alternative take on things but I'm under no illusions that it is more than just that. Don't get surprised or offended just because people don't want to talk about your favoured fanon nor want to consider it seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Phinneyverse/Enumerate is about encouraging creativity in the custom campaigns while allowing them to share a single universe. The benefit of the Phinneyverse is that it is easy to write stories for it, because that is specifically the reason it was devised.
    You're only saying that out of subjective preferential bias for Enumerate. The given Sc1/BW universe is just as easy to write stories for, encourages creativity and is an established single universe. Just because you don't like how a certain something occurred doesn't mean it's a restriction that can't be creatively worked around. You don't like Kerrigan, fine, just ignore her and have it that she has no influence in the story you want to create. You don't really have to create a whole universe that posits she never existed (not that I mind either way), just don't say it would be objectively better without the character because that remains to be seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Arbitrary restrictions like Kerry controlling the Zerg, Earth having fleets of doom that could arrive at any time, or Duran hiding an army of hybrids do not need to be accounted for. You do not have to jump through hoops to overcome these restrictions because they no longer exist.
    And somehow creating and investing into a whole alternate history to this universe is not considered jumping though a hoop to avoid supposed restrictions? It's fiction - all of it is arbitrary. You yourself have conceded that the story is just an excuse to have 3 races fight each other afterall.

    Those "restrictions" you mentioned are not really absolute restrictions, they just lacked forethought and detail in their implementation to bridge them appropriately into the universe at the time. One could easily, if they were willing and creative, to go into as much detail as to how Kerrigan goes about controlling the Zerg, how the UED timed its arrival or Duran creates Hybrids as much as ToxicDefiler did to create his alternate universe. I suspect that even if someone did do this, you would still disregard it because of your negative bias toward the idea of Kerrigan, UED or Duran/Hybrids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    This fits with the backstory Phinney wrote in the original manual. The overall plot of assimilated Terrans being Zerg messiahs, luring Protoss to the hive worlds, and feral brain beasts competing during the Brood Wars is basically the same. (Kerry herself died on Tarsonis to give Raynor more guilt.)
    You've exposed that your position is based on subjective bias against the character called Kerrigan, not that she is objectively bad/wrong/inconsistent with the manual. Having Episode II Overmind replace all references to "Kerrigan" with generic "humans with psionic power" still won't mitigate the inherent problems in that story. This argument holds true irrespective of whether one likes or dislikes the Kerrigan character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    This fits with Phinney's original backstory. The xel'naga were eaten by the Zerg, and it was the Zerg who wanted to assimilate the Protoss and become perfect. That said, I still think hybrid units could be introduced as failed attempts to achieve perfection by both Zerg and lunatics like Ulrezaj.
    I can get behind this. The Xel'Naga aren't actually important to the Sc1 narrative being told. They're really just a footnote and used merely as fluff to inform the current state of events. The Hybrid stuff I can take or leave but I do like it as a potential development of the Zerg process of trying to assimilate Protoss. This "failure" is a good excuse to prolong the conflict and prevent the Zerg from fulfilling their ultimate goal (and to prevent having to introduce another more powerful thing for the Zerg to go nom on and breaking the 3 race conflict that Sc is about), artifice though it may be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    This fits with Phinney's backstory about K-sec being utterly cut off.
    I'm undecided on this. With the actual setup of Sc we've got, the Terrans being cut-off actually makes their continued existence somewhat unrealistic on a Watsonian level because they are inherently weak compared to the other two. This would justify the Doylist introduction of Earth coming to bolster their strength. It doesn't necessarily mean they have to be the UED/big bad antagonist though. Then again, I understand the appeal of the isolated Terrans finding ways to support themselves and become an equal force to the other two, because it is supposed to be about a 3 race conflict, not 2. Retcon is necessary to solve both problems but Earth being an additive retcon is a smoother option if handled properly than having to create an actual inconsistency via retcon ("Terrans are weak and got crushed" to "not being weak at all and only mildly damaged").

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    In terms of other changes, EN has the Zerg maintaining a presence in K-sec with the intent of exterminating the remaining Terrans. The benefit of this is that it keeps the Terrans involved in the plot rather than forgetting about them when the Zerg fight the Protoss. Raynor is briefly mentioned as fighting the Dominion in a manner that is probably identical to the plot of WoL.
    This wouldn't make much sense. The Terran presence in the Koprulu sector is only viable if the Zerg relent in their attacks because by the end of Rebel Yell, the Terran strength is completely sapped. If the Zerg maintained the momentum of their offense on the Terrans after laying waste to Tarsonis, the Terrans would still not be part of the plot. Not because they were left out, but because they'd be well and truly wiped out!

    Having Raynor around to fight the Dominion soon after Rebel Yell is too quick given that he escaped with the skin of his teeth from Mengsk and that he hasn't time to build up enough of a support base to fight Mengsk. Mengsk has also barely started being a tyrant and holds all the remaining Terran power/sentiment. If you pile on the Zerg still attacking the Terrans in this scenario, this will make Raynor an unwise idiot for attacking the only Terran force that's left to fight the Zerg. Realistically, in this scenario you propose, Raynor would have gotten the hell out of dodge and disappeared entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    the dark templar nomads are spread across Protoss space. I like this idea
    I like this idea, too. I like the idea of DT's not even having a homeworld/Shakuras to begin with!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    But if you are indeed uninterested, then I will leave and maybe return in a decade or so when Blizzard has released more Starcraft campaigns without Kerry than with and everyone has gotten over their infatuation with her. Just let me know ASAP, because attempting to discuss this with you guys has honestly been so frustrating and stressful for me that I literally had green diarrhea.
    Why so serious? We're just throwing around opinions and having fun (at least I am at any rate). It's a forum for sharing ideas, not for stressing over. You really need some help dude.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  7. #37

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The editor is hard as hell to use, but an external document to adhere to only adds another hoop to jump through. That's why most campaigns have just worked with existing canon or went off on their own.

    You should just make something for StarCraft: Remastered. It's a hell of a lot easier and people are playing it again.

    I vote for Cerebrate trying to survive brood war.
    Which brood war? Canon or Enumerate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Um, no, you're not paying attention. I'm saying (and I'm pretty sure others are too) that canon is that Kerrigan is a part of the story, like it or not. You are perfectly fine to write whatever you want, and we write/map what we want. We're simply saying that a reboot with Kerrigan removed isn't strictly necessary or desirable. Kerrigan, Mengsk, and Raynor technically speaking are the main characters, but that doesn't mean that the other character didn't get plenty of time to do their stuff, or that they can't be primary characters later on.
    I am sick of hearing about those characters! Canon is small world bullshit and it should be clear by now that I do not give a crap. Starcraft should not have main characters because it is about a galactic war that spans hundreds of worlds and billions of people. All of the various side stories that have been published over the years are vastly more interesting because they are down-to-earth and do not privilege any single viewpoint character over others.

    Y'know, Mags, I'm feeling lazy. I don't really care to read a long thing about an alternate canon. What do you as an individual want to write?
    If you are not interested, why are you replying? I took the time and effort to copypaste only the timeline and I do not expect anyone to read the full document.

    Here is the most abridged account I could do:
    1. Prelude to War: Zerg vanguard invades K-sec. Terran governments wage secret war. Protoss scouts try to contain situation but fail.
    2. Great War: Zerg armies arrive and abduct lots of psychics. Protoss purify planets. Terrans fight back.
    3. Great War Part 2: Zerg invade Protoss space with new psychic weapons. Do things like steal khaydarin crystals, hunt dark templar, plunder ancient ruins, etc. Protoss fight brief civil war due to fear of dark templar. Meanwhile, Terrans are still fighting Zerg and experiencing civil strife.
    4. Brood Wars: Last ditch Protoss assault kills the Overmind. Zerg go crazy and what brain monsters survive fight for dominance. Terrans and Protoss fight back.
    5. Post-Brood Wars: Overmind returns and prioritizes survival over perfection. Timeline does not detail this period.


    To answer your question: Enumerate. It is everything I ever wanted in Starcraft. I actually was writing something almost identical before I stumbled upon it. It saved me a load of time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Why are you calling out Phinney's backstory? You should be giving your appropriate dues and referring to Enumerate's actual creator, ToxicDefiler.
    I thought I did that multiple times. Enumerate is one implementation of the Phinneyverse; not the only possibility, but the only one written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Admirable as the intent is and being detailed as it is, it still is fanon at the end of the day and people will either take it or leave it. You can say it's supposed to be the canon as much as you want but it's all just fanon and should be appreciated as such. I like a good alternative take on things but I'm under no illusions that it is more than just that. Don't get surprised or offended just because people don't want to talk about your favoured fanon nor want to consider it seriously.
    I said it is an alternate universe, which I think is better than canon because I think canon is small world bullshit. The entire point of this thread was to get people interested. I am only offended that so many people replied only to naysay.

    Also, what the heck is "fanon"? Is that a synonym for fanfiction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Why so serious? We're just throwing around opinions and having fun (at least I am at any rate). It's a forum for sharing ideas, not for stressing over. You really need some help dude.
    I want people to get interested in writing stories for what I consider the best iteration of Starcraft lore, tailor made for custom campaigns. Almost every reply has been naysaying based on trivialities like "Kerry is the main character", "I am too lazy to read a simple timeline" or "Do not bother writing fanfiction."

    I am sorry I did not say it before, but I would like to thank you for at least skimming over the timeline. Your previous complaint about the Protoss not having their own timeline is entirely valid, and author ToxicDefiler admits he finds the Protoss to be boring. I have difficulty think up a timeline for them that is not an extract of entries from the Zerg timeline, though, since it is fairly comprehensive and even mentions they have a brief civil war.




    This discussion has been terribly and pointlessly exhausting. If I hear about Kerry Sue one more time I will go ballistic! I am going to take a long break from this fandom.
    I think Starcraft needs rebooting. See "Enumerate" for details (links: timeline, full document, original forum thread).

  8. #38

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    I am sick of hearing about those characters! Canon is small world bullshit and it should be clear by now that I do not give a crap. Starcraft should not have main characters because it is about a galactic war that spans hundreds of worlds and billions of people. All of the various side stories that have been published over the years are vastly more interesting because they are down-to-earth and do not privilege any single viewpoint character over others.
    Uh...what did I say about those characters? I am merely pointing out their existence. Also, in writing, there is always a "viewpoint character", someone through whom the story is shown. Meaning, whoever we hang out with as a player is, at least temporarily, a main character. Also, as for as much as you whine about it, the events of the K Sector all hinged on the actions of Raynor/Kerri/Mengskiepoo. No matter what story you're talking about, there are going to be characters like this.

    Are you saying that the various side stories are more interesting than canon? That's what it sounds like you're saying. I disagree, at least as far as it concerns the manual and SC/BW. Sucky fanfiction is abundant and free.

    So...what I take from this is that you really, really hate canon, are incapable of separating SC1 from SC2, and expect us to feel the same way as you do. Okey pokey, Hokey.

    To answer your question: Enumerate. It is everything I ever wanted in Starcraft. I actually was writing something almost identical before I stumbled upon it. It saved me a load of time.
    It's official; you're no writer. Writers seek to create their own stories, their own viewpoint, even if it's within the construct of a specific universe. It appears now that all you wanted was a non-Kerri Starcraft, not the opportunity to tell a story your own way. Thus, Enumerate solves your problem without you having to show any creativity, or add something only you can add to it. It's easy enough to summarize an alternate Starcraft, but if you're not willing to actually write it, why should I care?

    Oh, and "fanon" is the contrast to "canon". "Canon" is what counts, and "fanon" is what a given fan/group of fans think should have happened. For example, my fanon is the complete abandonment of anything past BW, other than the downloadable missions.

    I like this idea, too. I like the idea of DT's not even having a homeworld/Shakuras to begin with!
    Actually, I like the idea of the DTs having a "homeworld." Not so much as an Aiur analogue, but just something like a planetary waystation. Like, most of the DTs would be scattered among the stars or protecting Aiur (ala Zeratul's claims), but they would have a place for the older people to settle down, to construct more ships, and just generally to serve as a place of rest and learning between their travels.
    Last edited by Nissa; 11-21-2017 at 01:00 PM.


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Oh, and "fanon" is the contrast to "canon". "Canon" is what counts, and "fanon" is what a given fan/group of fans think should have happened. For example, my fanon is the complete abandonment of anything past BW, other than the downloadable missions.
    Tell me something Nissa, with regards to the downloadable missions, which one did you think had the best potential to continue the storyline? (Because I never paid attention to them, so I'm curious)

  10. #40

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Uh...what did I say about those characters? I am merely pointing out their existence. Also, in writing, there is always a "viewpoint character", someone through whom the story is shown. Meaning, whoever we hang out with as a player is, at least temporarily, a main character. Also, as for as much as you whine about it, the events of the K Sector all hinged on the actions of Raynor/Kerri/Mengskiepoo. No matter what story you're talking about, there are going to be characters like this.

    Are you saying that the various side stories are more interesting than canon? That's what it sounds like you're saying. I disagree, at least as far as it concerns the manual and SC/BW. Sucky fanfiction is abundant and free.

    So...what I take from this is that you really, really hate canon, are incapable of separating SC1 from SC2, and expect us to feel the same way as you do. Okey pokey, Hokey.



    It's official; you're no writer. Writers seek to create their own stories, their own viewpoint, even if it's within the construct of a specific universe. It appears now that all you wanted was a non-Kerri Starcraft, not the opportunity to tell a story your own way. Thus, Enumerate solves your problem without you having to show any creativity, or add something only you can add to it. It's easy enough to summarize an alternate Starcraft, but if you're not willing to actually write it, why should I care?

    Oh, and "fanon" is the contrast to "canon". "Canon" is what counts, and "fanon" is what a given fan/group of fans think should have happened. For example, my fanon is the complete abandonment of anything past BW, other than the downloadable missions.



    Actually, I like the idea of the DTs having a "homeworld." Not so much as an Aiur analogue, but just something like a planetary waystation. Like, most of the DTs would be scattered among the stars or protecting Aiur (ala Zeratul's claims), but they would have a place for the older people to settle down, to construct more ships, and just generally to serve as a place of rest and learning between their travels.
    This will be the last post I will make for a long time. So I will be brief, but I have to correct you.

    By side stories I am referring to the published novels, anthologies and comics. Not fanfiction.

    Yes, all I ever wanted was a Starcraft without Queen of Blades. Because of her, the Zerg have no higher aspirations. Even Abathur and Dehaka are short-sighted morons. The Zerg's quest for perfection and their hunt for the determinant was the only reason for the three races to interact. Now all the conflicts feel fake and forced. There's no way to salvage that, hence why I fell in love with Enumerate.

    I have no idea what possessed you to reply to my thread given your clear and constant hostility. Thank you for being so rude and unhelpful. It gave me the strength to finally leave this forum.

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