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Thread: Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

  1. #301

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo View Post
    Eh, Brood war seems pretty "fly by the seat of your pants" to me other than the Kerrigan is now a god tier strategist stuff.

    I also agree with Mislagnissa that the sense of scale diminished (especially in the Protoss BW campaign where its almost entirely about a treasure hunt)

    Even in Kerrigan's campaign she has like 3 different filler missions
    The treasure hunt was vital. Remember what Zeratul said, that even if killing all the zerg on Shakuras would help Kerrigan's agenda, it was still their only chance of survival.

  2. #302

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Jesus man, you don't get it. It's simple: we like the game. What you think would make it better is your opinion. It's not fact, it's an opinion. Why do you try to force it on everyone? You can share it, that's what this place is for, but you have to stop with the drama...
    I certainly try to do what you suggest, but nobody is interested in discussing it. People here only seem to be interested in discussing canon, mostly to complain and criticize it. Nobody seems to be interested in genuinely constructive discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    The treasure hunt was vital. Remember what Zeratul said, that even if killing all the zerg on Shakuras would help Kerrigan's agenda, it was still their only chance of survival.
    The xel'naga temple on Shakuras is a blatant plot device that does not even pretend to make any sense. How do they know that the temple will kill the zerg? How did they know where the control crystals were? Why were there control crystals in the first place? Why were the crystals stolen? Why could they not be replaced?

    An identical but much more sensible plot device would be the Dakaran superweapon from Stargate SG-1. While it is a blatant plot device to stop an overpowered villain, it actually has a valid reason to exist on its own and to do the things it does. The "superweapon" was a simple terraforming device, so it can be modulated to destroy specific forms of life but not others. The difficulty was in calibrating it so that the bad guys would be destroyed but not everyone else, and figuring out a way to ensure it would extend to cover the entire galaxy. It also reappeared in later episodes whenever a villain wanted to kill everyone until it was destroyed by another group of villains to prevent it from being used that way again.
    Last edited by Mislagnissa; 06-06-2018 at 09:29 AM.

  3. #303

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    People here only seem to be interested in discussing canon, mostly to complain and criticize it.
    I think you've done most of the complaining and hard criticising. I've been in plenty of discussions here with others about "canon" without resorting to complaining and hard criticism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Nobody seems to be interested in genuinely constructive discussion about Enumerate
    Fixed for ya. You only consider it "genuinely constructive discussion" when it pertains to Enumerate and not anything to do with the Sc games.

    Besides, there's not much to talk about anymore since all that there was to talk about Sc happened ages ago and that Sc2 doesn't really inspire one to talk about it for long before one quickly realises how inane such discussions get. It's why this forum's quiet.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  4. #304

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Fixed for ya. You only consider it "genuinely constructive discussion" when it pertains to Enumerate and not anything to do with the Sc games.

    Besides, there's not much to talk about anymore since all that there was to talk about Sc happened ages ago and that Sc2 doesn't really inspire one to talk about it for long before one quickly realises how inane such discussions get. It's why this forum's quiet.
    That is precisely why I think Enumerate is the only constructive avenue of discussion. Starcraft suffered from the writers writing each entry as a self-contained story and making up the overarching plot as they went along. Enumerate plans ahead to outline a galactic war as a sandbox for self-contained stories.

    Since nobody is interested in following my actual thread dedicated to enumerate, I will just recap myself here. The only contention I had with enumerate was that it completely ignored the SC2 tech trees despite ostensibly being intended for the SC2 engine, ignores the tal'darim even though evil dark templar is a perfectly functional idea (just look at Ulrezaj), forgot a few plot points from the manual that could have been explored (umojan/protoss alliance, ara/akilae schism), and kept plot points that weren't necessary anymore (cerebrate invulnerability).

    Aside from that the only problems I could see coming up would be that the timeline ends when the Overmind returns and doesn't really explore the galaxy outside the context of the Great War, although those are quite minor since it already hits all the high points most people would be interest in anyway.

    But if I had to continue that line of thought, I'd use the custom campaigns Annihilation and Ignos as my examples. Both take place outside Koprulu so they could tell their own stories without worrying about Amon and crap (although they still contradict canon even then). Both focus on independent protoss tribes that follow the Khala yet employ Nerazim (i.e. they use the SC2 protoss "daelaam" tech tree). Both include independent broods of zerg, like the Daggerfang brood who were minding their own business before evil terrans arrived to enslave them and the primal zerg hordes that are inexplicably present on planets once trod by the xel'naga or something.

    Trying to explain these in the context of enumerate is actually quite easy. The pseudo-daelaam are schismatics who accepted the Khala in concept but refused to force nonbelievers to submit to the Khala's Law and left the Empire in disgust, or even date to the Aeon of Strife (the concept of protoss schismatics who aren't nerazim is fairly common in custom campaigns dating back to BW's release, such as the Flame Knives and the Kharnikhan Empire). The daggerfang brood are part of the zerg swarm that wasn't assigned to fight the Koprulu War yet, since the zerg are a galactic civilization. The primal zerg encountered on the abandoned worlds are descended from zerg who were lost and forgotten (equivalent to the "forgotten fleets" of Tyranids in Warhammer 40k).

    In fact, primal zerg can be introduced into enumerate as the degenerate descendants of the real zerg (the opposite of their canon origin, but one which explains why they would show up wherever the plot requires) or as engineered metamorphs, if it ever becomes necessary to include them. I honestly don't see the appeal since the real zerg do everything better, so they pretty much have to be combined with the metamorph concept to make sense. Metamorphs are a concept dropped from SC2's development which generated their own mutations by eating people without those mutations, even though that makes no sense. I would reinterpret the concept as metamorphs being derived from defilers, which have re-purposed their "cancer factories" (the lore literally calls them that) to replicate the armaments of other breeds.

    But I digress... I believe that if people gave it chance, enumerate could inspire new and interesting discussions.

  5. #305

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Starcraft suffered from the writers writing each entry as a self-contained story and making up the overarching plot as they went along. Enumerate plans ahead to outline a galactic war as a sandbox for self-contained stories.
    Meh, all fictional stories are "made up as they went along", it's only just a matter of how well that aspect is taken advantage of or disguised. At the least, Starcraft 1 has a compelling story and dared to shake its status quo as that story progressed. Enumerate has nothing of the sort and is just another version of the manual/initial setup really. Hypothetically, any stories written from this alternate setup are not guaranteed to be any better/different/less "made up" than what we already have with the current setup.
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  6. #306

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Meh, all fictional stories are "made up as they went along", it's only just a matter of how well that aspect is taken advantage of or disguised. At the least, Starcraft 1 has a compelling story and dared to shake its status quo as that story progressed. Enumerate has nothing of the sort and is just another version of the manual/initial setup really.
    Yes. So is every canon game because they rehash the same plot with the names changed. Enumerate was never intended to be a story itself, it was intended to be a sandbox for other people's stories. We had this argument already, I fail to see why this is a problem, and I do not understand why you keep forgetting this because I say it pretty much every single time this comes up.

    While Rebel Yell has a fairly decent if rushed story, the zerg and protoss campaigns declined dramatically in quality. The status quo remained unchanged across the games because they rehash the exact same plot of terrans ineffectually rebelling against oppression, zerg slave masters trying to eat everyone while claiming to hold the moral high ground, and protoss doing melodramatic line readings while the zerg whoop their pansy asses before they pull a deus ex machina out of said asses. The entire time the aliens play second fiddle to terrans, ultimately being enslaved by terrans or effectively becoming funny looking terrans themselves.

    The benefit of Enumerate is that it recognizes this and seeks to improve rather than remaining painfully oblivious and repetitive. Since the canon endlessly rehashes the same plot, Enumerate just condenses all those into a couple of arcs to avoid being repetitive, with each arc shaking up the status quo of the previous by redrawing the political landscape. It stops at the point where not-Amon/Second Overmind shows up because there is no way to continue without feeling repetitive.

    In fact, the author complained that he found the protoss painfully bland and used that as the reason why the protoss are underutilized in the timeline (relatively speaking, since they are vastly over-utilized compared to canon). I think that does the protoss a disservice, but I admire the honesty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Hypothetically, any stories written from this alternate setup are not guaranteed to be any better/different/less "made up" than what we already have with the current setup.
    I have only ever seen evidence to the contrary. All of the best custom campaigns about the zerg and protoss, what few exist since most are about terrans for obvious reasons, have been those which contradicted canon to give them their own initiative. Unsurprisingly, they behave exactly as I expect they would under Enumerate.

  7. #307

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Yes. So is every canon game because they rehash the same plot with the names changed. Enumerate was never intended to be a story itself, it was intended to be a sandbox for other people's stories. We had this argument already, I fail to see why this is a problem, and I do not understand why you keep forgetting this because I say it pretty much every single time this comes up.
    I say this because Sc1's story is Ok/fine/serviceable and in-line with the initial setup in the manual. You're the only one that says it isn't.

    Enumerate being a "sandbox for other peoples stories" is not really necessary since we already have that in the form of the original manual. If one didn't like Sc1's story (which really is what your position boils down to at the end of the day), they don't need to go to Enumerate to rewrite their own fanon version, they can just use the manual to interpret it any way they want and focus on the parts they're interested in to make their own story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    While Rebel Yell has a fairly decent if rushed story, the zerg and protoss campaigns declined dramatically in quality.
    What flaws that are present in the writing can be isolated solely at the structural level (eg: plotting, pacing etc) and has nothing to do with the contextual setup of the story.
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  8. #308

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    I'm getting pretty sick of how every thread is devolving into a discussion of Enumerate. Let's make this clear: Mislag is the only one who cares, Enumerate is not the "only constructive avenue of discussion", and rebooting the franchise can mean any number of things, dependent only on the creativity of the person doing the rebooting.

    I think the series should be "rebooted" in the sense that there should be a sort of time reversal. As in, Starcraft:Ghost should have come out or else there should have been a second expansion set to settle certain story points and allow the franchise to continue unimpeded by them. Probably both. Raynor should step down from a major character to a side character, Kerrigan should either die or be somehow otherwise taken out of the plot (maybe turned into a fully-Zergified cerebrate with less independence?), Zeratul should come into focus for seeking answers about the Xel'Naga (who should in turn remain mysterious for an indefinite amount of time) and be encountered at certain points. Artie should become more prominent, but because he is so young and inexperienced, older Protoss should join him in prominent roles for the Protoss side of things.

    Mengsk should live. If Valerian, or any other child of Mengsk, exists, then they should exist either as rivals or try to diminish and hide their association with him. At no point should Mengsk be replaced, even if he is killed. If he is killed, the Dominion should either dissolve, or have a form of government other than a general monarchy/tyranny. Mengsk's value as a character hinges on the fact that he knows things and has a proper buildup. No character should come up as a major villain without comparable buildup to Mengsk.

    There should also be more Zerg characters. Given that the Overmind could have been brought back, it should likewise be possible to bring back the cerebrates, given that not all of them were killed by the DT -- it may also be possible to generate a new cerebrate. Other than this, certain humans might be infestible to create new characters, or possibly animals infested to become sentient characters.

    I could go on, but I got stuff to do.


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  9. #309

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I say this because Sc1's story is Ok/fine/serviceable and in-line with the initial setup in the manual. You're the only one that says it isn't.

    Enumerate being a "sandbox for other peoples stories" is not really necessary since we already have that in the form of the original manual. If one didn't like Sc1's story (which really is what your position boils down to at the end of the day), they don't need to go to Enumerate to rewrite their own fanon version, they can just use the manual to interpret it any way they want and focus on the parts they're interested in to make their own story.
    If I tried that I would only end up recreating enumerate. It is simply that good.

  10. #310
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    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    This all kind of makes me wish I had the budget for making a full SC1 reboot.

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