Page 3 of 53 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 527

Thread: Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

  1. #21
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,988

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Nobody is saying it couldn't have been done better, just that it was decent for video game stories.

    You want a reboot, and I think few people disagree with that. You also want more custom campaigns in an alternate universe, and nobody is stopping you from making those. So what's the problem?
    Last edited by Gradius; 11-18-2017 at 07:46 PM.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    So if I understand you guys correctly, you want the series to remain trapped in a tiny, stagnant box where Kerry, Raynor and Mengsk are the only characters of consequence, despite the massive size and populations of the Koprulu sector and Protoss space? And if anyone wants to tell stories about other characters, you want them to set those in another far flung region of space unconnected to the Koprulu sector?
    No and no. Your generalised conclusion makes we wonder whether you're just forcing yourself to see things in a certain way to reinforce your position because you're so blinded by your bias or whether you truly don't understand our position (like much in the way Rag normally goes about when he replys).

    For me, Starcraft has always felt relatively provincial, intimate and small. It's only really felt to be of greater/epic proportions because the characters within it that instill that sense, not because it actually is. This particular feel isn't directly tied to any one specific/known character (or characters) because I found that the most interesting/memorable stories that have ever come out during the entire period of Sc2's release was actually the short stories they released. Those short stories had a sort of natural epicness that was far greater than anything found in Sc2 itself (where its epicness seemed to be more forced than being naturally developed), despite their scope being extremely small and their characters being essentially "nobodys". Sc1 was much like those short stories in a way. It felt like it was just that these events happened to focus on these characters. Whilst BW was behooved to have these characters again, being a direct continuation (it occurs almost immediately after Sc1 ends) and being released so soon after Sc1, Sc2 didn't have to follow the same vein because BW easily served as a finale of sorts (downer though it may be) and there was 4 years that passed. This feeling of constraint having to use previous established characters again is an issue of sequelitis. It is more strongly and unnecessarily felt in Sc2 than it is in BW.

    Even with that said, this is not to say that the known, named characters we did have couldn't have had good/resonating stories. This is what makes BW more memorable than Sc2. The drama of Raynor being betrayed, the bad-assery of Kerrigan with hints of regret for her actions, the tragedy that befalls Zeratul; these easily trump any of the many obvious conceits used to bring that drama forward because those feels are a goal in themselves and not necessarily about plot development/movement. It's fine and consistent in a Watsonian sense to have the characters develop tangentially to the plot despite it being Doylist in how it was brought about.

    In contrast, Sc2 is nothing but conceit. Any drama that does occur feels forced and or enslaved to plot progression. Raynor's change of heart is not Watsonian in its consistency because of Doylist reasons. He ends BW being embittered and hates Kerrigan but somehow clings to a notion that she can be saved or good again because of... unexplained reasons? (Oh right, it's been 4 years... as if this is supposed to explain everything that has and has not happened since) His "redemption" is not something that can be easily found, expected to be resolved nor that he's searching for it in the Watsonian sense, but it is given to him anyway in a Doylist way like a gift from the gods. The game/authorial intent wants to position him as a hero despite his anti-hero leanings being an informed trait and having no observable negative consequence. It's really all there just to have an excuse for Kerrigan to turn good again (her being deinfested is actually unimportant and strangely irrelevent as the story progresses) because Raynor is such a "good" man for not giving up on her... or something.

    HotS and LotV fair a little better in that there is a proper and largely consistent motivation for the main character throughout most of the game but it's bad because the entire initial motivation is purposefully Doylist in inspiration. Kerrigan seeking revenge and getting redemption doesn't feel wholly Watsonian in nature because the Doylist reason to have the plot engineered to have her be instrumental in saving the galaxy is more overt/important. Artanis and the Protoss being all powerful and beating a threat that was greater than anything before is not consistent in a Watsonian way because the Protoss have been shown to be weak and weakened by weaker enemise previously.

    All in all, in a TLDR summary, the issue is one to do with the implementation of a character not the character in and of itself.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  3. #23

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Nobody is saying it couldn't have been done better, just that it was decent for video game stories.

    You want a reboot, and I think few people disagree with that. You also want more custom campaigns in an alternate universe, and nobody is stopping you from making those. So what's the problem?
    I wanted this thread to discuss the Phinneyverse I mentioned, but it seems nobody is actually interested. That is really frustrating. I do not see the point in wasting my free time writing stories and programming maps nobody will be interested in, nor being the only person in the world doing so.

    I have many other fandoms to choose from. Warhammer 40k is closest to Starcraft, even if the Tyranids are bland as saltines and the video games suck. Is Starcraft worth my time, or should I write it off and leave?
    I think Starcraft needs rebooting. See "Enumerate" for details (links: timeline, full document, original forum thread).

  4. #24
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,988

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I wanted this thread to discuss the Phinneyverse I mentioned, but it seems nobody is actually interested. That is really frustrating. I do not see the point in wasting my free time writing stories and programming maps nobody will be interested in, nor being the only person in the world doing so.
    I mean, what’d you expect? Think about the value proposition you’re offering. At least a custom campaign has gameplay value. What does this non-canon Phinneyverse have? As far as I can tell it’s just a worldbuilding document and not even an actual alternate universe story that would be entertaining to read. You want us to to pour over these giant manuscripts that nobody else is interested in because they’re never going to be canon, and help fact check or whatever? That sounds like the type of tedious job that people come on here to get away from. The best case scenario is someone reads it, thinks “welp, that’s cool, I wish we had this” and then never sees it again in their life because it’s just a forum post. :P

    Is Starcraft worth my time, or should I write it off and leave?
    What do you want out of it? A vibrant community based around Enumerate? Probably not going to happen. An AU campaign could be worth it if you’re willing to make the time trade off.

    But you clearly dislike the core canon and it’s not going away, so maybe StarCraft isn’t for you.
    Last edited by Gradius; 11-19-2017 at 10:01 AM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Custom campaigns do not have to be shoehorned into an alternate universe to be "dark and gritty", just that most of the ones coming out are made by individuals with writing styles that don't mesh well with it.

    Crimson Moon, Amber Sun and Aurolan Eclipse do a good job of being sc-universe but more gritty story.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    I mean, what’d you expect? Think about the value proposition you’re offering. At least a custom campaign has gameplay value. What does this non-canon Phinneyverse have? As far as I can tell it’s just a worldbuilding document and not even an actual alternate universe story that would be entertaining to read. You want us to to pour over these giant manuscripts that nobody else is interested in because they’re never going to be canon, and help fact check or whatever? That sounds like the type of tedious job that people come on here to get away from. The best case scenario is someone reads it, thinks “welp, that’s cool, I wish we had this” and then never sees it again in their life because it’s just a forum post. :P
    I copied excerpts that explain the basic concept and provide a timeline and list of war theaters. That alone gives a sprawling setting. The first post lists the major changes:
    - No Kerrigan, instead the Zerg will have Assimilated Terrans as units.
    - No Duran, Amon, nor major Xel'Naga Plotline such as Hybrids nor Prophecy.
    - UED is replaced by the Umojans, and the Kel-Morians will also be a major component.
    - Zeratul sacrifices himself instead of Tassadar during the Death of the Overmind.
    I have only skimmed the big book thing myself. Takes time to read it.

    What do you want out of it? A vibrant community based around Enumerate? Probably not going to happen. An AU campaign could be worth it if you’re willing to make the time trade off.

    But you clearly dislike the core canon and it’s not going away, so maybe StarCraft isn’t for you.
    Core canon? Metzen admits he invented QoB ad hoc in an interview on Polygon; before that she would have just died to motivate Jimmy and the Zerg would have kept their original motivation to eat all humanity.

    But thank you for clearing that up. I shall forget this fandom and never look back just like I did fifteen years ago. Who knows, I might come back in another decade once people have gotten over Kerry and are open to exploring how things could have been without her.
    Last edited by Mislagnissa; 11-19-2017 at 04:25 PM.
    I think Starcraft needs rebooting. See "Enumerate" for details (links: timeline, full document, original forum thread).

  7. #27
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,988

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Core canon? Metzen admits he invented QoB ad hoc in an interview on Polygon; before that she would have just died to motivate Jimmy and the Zerg would have kept their original motivation to eat all humanity.
    Your point? She's an important character for literally every SC game.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I wanted this thread to discuss the Phinneyverse I mentioned, but it seems nobody is actually interested.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The best case scenario is someone reads it, thinks “welp, that’s cool, I wish we had this” and then never sees it again in their life because it’s just a forum post.
    That's it in a nutshell.

    Besides, there's nothing to discuss since it's all just content and no narrative, so we can't really judge it and compare it to the thing we have got. The issue with the games story has never been about the content but the implementation of that content to have an affecting and effective plot. I'd imagine that even if one were to use the content you've provided, it's not an absolute guarantee that it would be implemented well.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  9. #29

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Your point? She's an important character for literally every SC game.
    Not the Nova DLC. I got the impression Blizzard wanted to close the book on Kerry and focus on other characters. Which I would have applauded if their writing was not typically crappy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That's it in a nutshell.

    Besides, there's nothing to discuss since it's all just content and no narrative, so we can't really judge it and compare it to the thing we have got. The issue with the games story has never been about the content but the implementation of that content to have an affecting and effective plot. I'd imagine that even if one were to use the content you've provided, it's not an absolute guarantee that it would be implemented well.
    Your complaint is baseless: Blizzard cannot write anything well. The Phinneyverse was written for the fans, so I certainly think there are things that we the fans may discuss about it.

    The timeline qualifies as a narrative, or maybe "metaplot" in TVtropes jargon. It is bare bones, yes, because the author expected map makers to use it as a basis for their own stories. The idea is that map makers could set stories in the same universe, rather than an unconnected morass of distant prequels (e.g. Origins), various flavors of sequels (e.g. Replicant, Noir, Wrath of the Tal'darim), tangential stories set in far flung regions of space (e.g. Annihilation, Odyssey), really bizarre alternate universes (e.g. Legacy of the Confederation, Time Convergence), or stories which cannot possibly fit anywhere in canon (e.g. Proditor, Vortex of the Void).

    Phinneyverse/Enumerate is about encouraging creativity in the custom campaigns while allowing them to share a single universe. The benefit of the Phinneyverse is that it is easy to write stories for it, because that is specifically the reason it was devised. Arbitrary restrictions like Kerry controlling the Zerg, Earth having fleets of doom that could arrive at any time, or Duran hiding an army of hybrids do not need to be accounted for. You do not have to jump through hoops to overcome these restrictions because they no longer exist. It is fairly easy to fit a number of existing custom campaigns into the Phinneyverse/Enumerate metaplot. Furthermore, the massive scale of the metaplot means that adding new factions without upsetting the status quo is fairly easy.

    Proditor, for example, may fit because the Phinneyverse does not arbitrarily make Protoss immune to infestation/assimilation, and the corrupted templar introduced therein may continue to play a role in the stories focusing on them.

    Campaigns like Annihilation, which specifically severs itself from the rest of the K-sec to avoid those restrictions, becomes easy to integrate. For example, the RSSI becomes one of many mega-corporations that dot the Dominion (remember, Terrans live in a cyberpunk dystopia), the Idu'ran tribe becomes part of the Protoss Empire rather than "independent" khala followers (?), and the Daggerfang brood becomes part of the Zerg Swarm that was following its directive (whatever that was) before the RSSI interrupted it.

    I shall take a lot at the major changes and comment on them:
    - No Kerrigan, instead the Zerg will have Assimilated Terrans as units.
    This fits with the backstory Phinney wrote in the original manual. The overall plot of assimilated Terrans being Zerg messiahs, luring Protoss to the hive worlds, and feral brain beasts competing during the Brood Wars is basically the same. (Kerry herself died on Tarsonis to give Raynor more guilt.)
    - No Duran, Amon, nor major Xel'Naga Plotline such as Hybrids nor Prophecy.
    This fits with Phinney's original backstory. The xel'naga were eaten by the Zerg, and it was the Zerg who wanted to assimilate the Protoss and become perfect. That said, I still think hybrid units could be introduced as failed attempts to achieve perfection by both Zerg and lunatics like Ulrezaj.
    - UED is replaced by the Umojans, and the Kel-Morians will also be a major component.
    This fits with Phinney's backstory about K-sec being utterly cut off. DuGalle and Stukov were already fan favorite heroes, whose only flaw was that fate (i.e. Metzen) conspired against them, so I see no problem keeping them as Umojans valiantly fighting the corrupt Dominion.
    - Zeratul sacrifices himself instead of Tassadar during the Death of the Overmind.
    I can see some people disagreeing with this, but I can also see some merit to it. Zeratul wants to atone for giving up vital military intel to the Zerg, and Tassadar wants to stay around and teach his disciples how to combine the void and khala like he does.

    In terms of other changes, EN has the Zerg maintaining a presence in K-sec with the intent of exterminating the remaining Terrans. The benefit of this is that it keeps the Terrans involved in the plot rather than forgetting about them when the Zerg fight the Protoss. Raynor is briefly mentioned as fighting the Dominion in a manner that is probably identical to the plot of WoL. I think that is an excellent use of his character. Unexplored lingering plot threads include the fate of his son, Johnny, who was most likely in the Ghost Academy on Tarsonis when it was taken by the Zerg.

    The Zerg will be attacking planets that are held by the Khala, in order to exterminate the race and collect as many Khaydarin Crystals to help the process of Assimilation for the Protoss.
    The Protoss have the sprawling empire they did in Phinney's backstory. This plot point is based on EP2 Mission 9, fleshed out and explained. I love the idea of using khaydarin crystals for psychic warfare against the khala.

    The Zerg will be attacking the Dark Templar, hunting down as many as possible with its devastating Broods in order to remove the threat of the Dark Templar and the potential harm it can do to the Swarm.
    Following from Phinney's lore, the dark templar nomads are spread across Protoss space. I like this idea, as it makes the dark templar actors in their own right rather than a plot device to save the khala. EP4 is the only campaign even close to something like this.

    The Zerg will be attacking Aiur as the primary base of operations after Char and the other Hive Worlds, to plan and start the Assimilation Process of the Protoss by first attacking the Khala that unites them.
    Aiur is the capital world and the center of the Psi Matrix uniting the empire, so this makes sense. I think this is based on Amon's plot in LotV, only the Overmind needs to work for this like a real cybercriminal.

    The Zerg will be exploring planets that once held the Pre-Aeon Protoss, finding their ruins in order to help their progress into assimilating the Protoss, and their extermination of independence from the Swarm.
    As in Phinney's lore, the Protoss were really advanced before the Aeon of Strife, and their current civilization is a pale shadow of their ancestors. Examples of this plot hook may be seen in Retribution and Shadow of the Xel'naga.

    The Brood Wars sections mentions that enslavement attempts become much easier and alludes to Enslavers, The Iron Fist (terrans enslaving Zerg with psi tech), Dark Vengeance (nerazim enslaving Zerg with argus) and even Gradius' Subjugation (khalai enslaving zerg with khaydarin).

    But if you are indeed uninterested, then I will leave and maybe return in a decade or so when Blizzard has released more Starcraft campaigns without Kerry than with and everyone has gotten over their infatuation with her. Just let me know ASAP, because attempting to discuss this with you guys has honestly been so frustrating and stressful for me that I literally had green diarrhea.
    I think Starcraft needs rebooting. See "Enumerate" for details (links: timeline, full document, original forum thread).

  10. #30
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,988

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Not the Nova DLC. I got the impression Blizzard wanted to close the book on Kerry and focus on other characters. Which I would have applauded if their writing was not typically crappy.
    The Nova DLC is actually decent.

    But if you are indeed uninterested, then I will leave
    I am interested. It sounds great. :P

    and maybe return in a decade or so when Blizzard has released more Starcraft campaigns without Kerry than with and everyone has gotten over their infatuation with her.
    As I said, she's my least favorite character. <_<
    Last edited by Gradius; 11-20-2017 at 01:07 PM.

Similar Threads

  1. GSL S2 Discussion Thread *SPOILERS*
    By Maul in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 11-13-2010, 12:10 PM
  2. Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread
    By ArcherofAiur in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 3274
    Last Post: 07-20-2010, 07:37 PM
  3. The Official SC2 Pro Names Discussion Thread
    By InpuBot in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-24-2010, 10:05 PM
  4. Press Update Discussion Thread.
    By Pandonetho in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-29-2009, 02:20 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •