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Thread: Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

  1. #11

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post

    Starcraft was about faction politics and moral ambiguity, not personal vendettas. Kerry does not contribute anything besides pointlessly shitting on the Zerg and being a plot device.
    I strongly disagree. That's part of it yes, but that's not the entirety of it. A story needs characters, not just settings and events. Ask any fan who are the first characters that come to their mind when they think of Starcraft, I'd bet you anything that Kerrigan is among the first 5 named. For better or for worst, Kerrigan is a main part of that story. She can't just be another brain monster. Would you replace wolverine in the X-Men with just another mutant? "Oh but the story is not about his personal vendetta, it's about the struggle of being different". Sure it is, but the vast majority of fans want Wolverine in X-men and that's just how it is.

    Argue all you want, she will still be on the box cover.

    I don't understand you people. Why do you want Kerry to be the main character, rather than the competing factions with their distinct morals? That's not what Starcraft was about!
    Can you point me to a good story that's strictly about factions/organizations and their struggles? A completely impersonal story but yet still a good story? I don't know any. In my mind, it's close to impossible to make such a story without it sounding like a dry history lesson. Imagine Game of Thrones/ASOIAF but no one has names and everyone is just a generic medieval person. "Princess X got back-stabbed by rogue assassin of faction Y at King X wedding which started the fifth war of...". That sounds just horrible to me but if that's your thing, consider yourself in the minority.
    Last edited by sandwich_bird; 11-17-2017 at 08:41 PM.

  2. #12
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    I hate Kerrigan because she completely replaced the cerebrates and is more powerful than a protoss, but otherwise the drama was good enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Which everyone will know is a ripoff of Starcraft 1. There's no point!
    I mean you do think 5/6 of the story is garbage, so would that be so bad? :P

    But no, I feel it. You want the same setting but better plot.
    Last edited by Gradius; 11-17-2017 at 09:59 PM.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    So much common sense coming from Birds words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    I hate Kerrigan because she completely replaced the cerebrates and is more powerful than a protoss, but otherwise the drama was good enough.
    I actually like the inclusion/idea of Kerrigan's character in BW because of the fact that I don't like her in a traditional way and because it was a brave move/huge subversion of the Zerg following the death of the Overmind.

    She was also the only true anti-hero in that universe. And much like other genre anti-heroes (Walter White and Saul Tigh come to mind so readily for me), she floated this line between being the "hate sink" for all the despicable acts and brattiness she displays and being "love to hate" for all the bad-ass Queen Bitchiness. There was a reason behind all of this behaviour, sympathisable as it may have been, but it's not easily discerned because it's buried and only comes out at rare moments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Look, Starcraft was about faction politics and moral ambiguity. That was the main allure. It was never about a specific group of characters being the movers and shakers. Metzen forced that in and ruined everything.

    I don't understand you people. Why do you want Kerry to be the main character, rather than the competing factions with their distinct morals? That's not what Starcraft was about!
    Oh, I don't know whether we can generalise the main appeal of Starcraft in this one specific way because well, I can easily say that the Zerg are not about faction politics (they are the one and only truly unified force) or moral ambiguity (they're amoral).

    I'm going to borrow from Tolkien here and say that what I think the greatest thing about Starcraft is that it has varied applicability rather than being allegorical. Seeing Starcraft as being nothing but an allegory for faction politics and moral ambiguity (whether that be from the authors intent or the viewer/audience) doesn't entirely explain/capture it's appeal in my opinion. No doubt, it is an important and interesting part but it's only one part and not the only part. In that, I mean that there is room for varied observer interpretation not just a single authorial intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    These changes make the plot follow the original manual! It is not a separate IP! If anything, it is the real IP as envisioned by Phinney before Metzen shat on it.
    As much as I too would like to give Phinney all the credit and that his particular vision of it was all great and planned out, I'm not too sure that even he really sweated out the details to the extent like ToxicDefiler has done in his treatment. I think it all just came down to good "pants writing".

    Oh, and if you're interested in seeing a solo writing work for a game that Phinney did on his own, you should check out this old game called Sacrifice. It's about this Wizard (voiced by Paul Eiding - the voice of Aldaris) who finds himself embroiled in a war amongst 5 gods. It was an underappreciated gem (it was too weird for its time because it confused everyone by mixing whimsy, humour and seriousness/darkness together) and had a very interesting narrative presentation in that it was about the Wizard relating this tale to another character whereby your gameplay choice of missions would change how the story went. I get the sneaking suspicion that Phinney probably wrote most of the flowery dialogue that we see in the Overmind and some of the Protoss characters.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  4. #14

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    I edited the first post to add some more context and a brief list of major changes.

    I spend hours writing this post so it probably has lots of redundant text. I am very frustrated and inarticulate today for some reason.

    If I seem to be rambling just ignore any irrelevant stuff. I go to sleep now. 1 AM in morning.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    I strongly disagree. That's part of it yes, but that's not the entirety of it. A story needs characters, not just settings and events. Ask any fan who are the first characters that come to their mind when they think of Starcraft, I'd bet you anything that Kerrigan is among the first 5 named. For better or for worst, Kerrigan is a main part of that story. She can't just be another brain monster. Would you replace wolverine in the X-Men with just another mutant? "Oh but the story is not about his personal vendetta, it's about the struggle of being different". Sure it is, but the vast majority of fans want Wolverine in X-men and that's just how it is.

    Argue all you want, she will still be on the box cover.
    Do you even like her or are you just basing this on stereotypes of fanboys?

    You are forcing Starcraft into a tiny, banal box. Kerry as the main character? That is such a tiny, limited view of what Starcraft is and could ever be. That is like saying WarCraft was always about Arthas, and not the dozens of other characters who appeared. Starcraft is military scifi, not a superhero comic or romance novel. It has a much larger scale than the common soap opera. Unless you are trying to say the franchise is poisoned, which I would contest.

    Kerry's story has already been exhausted and there's nothing else to do with her. What is she gonna do? Fight Duran to the death? Conquer the sector a second time? Kill everyone who is still alive? Sit on her throne of corpses and twiddle her thumbs forever? There is nowhere for her character to go.

    Saying that she is beloved by fans was never a good justification. HotS caused most players to outright hate her or at least become sick of her. Plenty of players agree she is not necessary and that the Overmind is better. See these discussions for examples:
    http://www.campaigncreations.org/for...pic.php?t=1647
    https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/8016881832
    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/topic/12471457492

    Almost every fanfic about her turns her into a lovesick puppy. In one story "Breeding the Queen", and I wish I was making this up, she fucks her pet Zergling every which way. Every time I read her name I cannot help but remember those lurid passages.

    Can you point me to a good story that's strictly about factions/organizations and their struggles? A completely impersonal story but yet still a good story? I don't know any. In my mind, it's close to impossible to make such a story without it sounding like a dry history lesson. Imagine Game of Thrones/ASOIAF but no one has names and everyone is just a generic medieval person. "Princess X got back-stabbed by rogue assassin of faction Y at King X wedding which started the fifth war of...". That sounds just horrible to me but if that's your thing, consider yourself in the minority.
    What? Where did I ever say anything like that?

    You are taking my statement way too literally. What I meant was that Starcraft was about factions and portrayed events through the eyes of members of those factions. It was not about one or two characters who controlled the fate of the universe. The stories should focus on other characters and other plots, not just the twelve or so characters who appeared in the original SC/BW. The point of SC:EN is that it expands the setting to tell many different stories about many different characters across two different wars with many different theaters.

    The campaigns of Loomings, Rebel Yell, Enslavers, Insurrection and Retribution were all personal stories that focused on a small cast of characters in a limited setting. They were meant to give a glimpse into the massive galaxy of Starcraft. They were not meant to be the be-all-end-all of the universe like Episodes 2 and beyond degenerated into.

    SC:EN was intended as a guide for mapmakers to be able to loosely collaborate and work within a shared fictional universe. It was never intended to focus solely on the same cast of twelve characters who only matter because they showed up first in the script. It is supposed to be about countless characters in countless campaigns. Not the same character over and over.

    Do you want Starcraft to be stuck in a rut around Kerry and Raynor and Zeratul and Fenix and Artanis, or do you want to see the world outside of them? The Protoss are supposed to rule like an eighth of the galaxy, which is insanely huge! We should really get to see that some time. Or are you saying that Blizzard can never deliver and we should not bother because you believe no one will like it? Did you hand out surveys to confirm that? Why even try to petition them to reboot at all if it will just be literally exactly the same thing we already got? That's not how reboots work.

    I would contest that. I do not get that impression from other discussions of sequels or reboots. Players seem to want the three races to fight each other, not team up to fight space satan or play second fiddle to romances. SC:EN is the only proposal I have seen that really provides that, since Brood War 2: Revenge of the UED will most likely end in everyone dying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    So much common sense coming from Birds words.



    I actually like the inclusion/idea of Kerrigan's character in BW because of the fact that I don't like her in a traditional way and because it was a brave move/huge subversion of the Zerg following the death of the Overmind.

    She was also the only true anti-hero in that universe. And much like other genre anti-heroes (Walter White and Saul Tigh come to mind so readily for me), she floated this line between being the "hate sink" for all the despicable acts and brattiness she displays and being "love to hate" for all the bad-ass Queen Bitchiness. There was a reason behind all of this behaviour, sympathisable as it may have been, but it's not easily discerned because it's buried and only comes out at rare moments.



    Oh, I don't know whether we can generalise the main appeal of Starcraft in this one specific way because well, I can easily say that the Zerg are not about faction politics (they are the one and only truly unified force) or moral ambiguity (they're amoral).

    I'm going to borrow from Tolkien here and say that what I think the greatest thing about Starcraft is that it has varied applicability rather than being allegorical. Seeing Starcraft as being nothing but an allegory for faction politics and moral ambiguity (whether that be from the authors intent or the viewer/audience) doesn't entirely explain/capture it's appeal in my opinion. No doubt, it is an important and interesting part but it's only one part and not the only part. In that, I mean that there is room for varied observer interpretation not just a single authorial intent.



    As much as I too would like to give Phinney all the credit and that his particular vision of it was all great and planned out, I'm not too sure that even he really sweated out the details to the extent like ToxicDefiler has done in his treatment. I think it all just came down to good "pants writing".

    Oh, and if you're interested in seeing a solo writing work for a game that Phinney did on his own, you should check out this old game called Sacrifice. It's about this Wizard (voiced by Paul Eiding - the voice of Aldaris) who finds himself embroiled in a war amongst 5 gods. It was an underappreciated gem (it was too weird for its time because it confused everyone by mixing whimsy, humour and seriousness/darkness together) and had a very interesting narrative presentation in that it was about the Wizard relating this tale to another character whereby your gameplay choice of missions would change how the story went. I get the sneaking suspicion that Phinney probably wrote most of the flowery dialogue that we see in the Overmind and some of the Protoss characters.
    IIRC in an interview Metzen said he wrote the Zerg to speak in King James style. I will need to find the link.

    I probably put it wrong, but by faction politics and morality I meant that the point of the game was that three races Terran, Zerg and Protoss were fighting each other for their own reasons and did not clearly fall into good guys and bad guys. That is what attracted players to Starcraft in the first place, not Kerry. Why do you think it is a national eSport in South Korea?

    You might admire QoB because she ruined the Zerg, but that is precisely why SC:EN writes her out of the story. Use the find function in your browser to search mentions of her in the first three posts, the quotes explain why she was dropped.
    I think Starcraft needs rebooting. See "Enumerate" for details (links: timeline, full document, original forum thread).

  5. #15

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    IIRC in an interview Metzen said he wrote the Zerg to speak in King James style. I will need to find the link.
    Only the Overmind speaks in an antiquated manner though. It was a conceit/expedient to represent that the Overmind was ancient without having to exposit or physically show it (which would be difficult anyway since its completely alien/ain't humanoid).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I probably put it wrong, but by faction politics and morality I meant that the point of the game was that three races Terran, Zerg and Protoss were fighting each other for their own reasons and did not clearly fall into good guys and bad guys. That is what attracted players to Starcraft in the first place, not Kerry. Why do you think it is a national eSport in South Korea?
    You're touching on gameplay-story segregation here. People who like Starcraft for the game, don't give much of a rats arse about the story or lore and people who like it for the lore, don't sweat the gameplay oddities too much.

    I disagree about how you disregard the importance of the characters as being one of the reasons for one's preference for Sc1 though. The characters are the lens through which one see the politics and morality at play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    You might admire QoB because she ruined the Zerg, but that is precisely why SC:EN writes her out of the story.
    I don't admire the QoB because she ruined the Zerg, I admire the idea of the character as an anti-hero. I admire the idea of having some unlikable person taking advantage of the situation the Zerg were in after the loss of the Overmind for their own benefit because it's a risky and challenging writing position to take up. This is what one thing BW has over Sc2 - the story in BW had more balls, gumption and heart whereas Sc2 felt stale and safe.

    Sure, the implementation of this idea in BW was ultimately and sorely lacking in that it tended to hyperinflate the importance/significance of the character (hence the Mary Sue accusations) and rendered everything about the Zerg into nothing more but a plot device, but it doesn't mean the idea can't be used well. Kerrigan could've been used well in a revisionist BW where she could've carved out a niche within the Zerg like Sylvanas Windrunner of Warcraft does with the undead (her undead faction, the Forsaken, is against everyone, including the mainline Undead controlled by the Lich King) instead of being the "bestest of best Zerg leaders" as BW trends towards. Alternatively, she could've been use well in an interregnum or transition phase between the loss of the Overmind and the Zerg evolving on its own to not need a hivemind or someone controlling them.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  6. #16

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    "The Overmind campaign sucked." "BroodWar wasn't great."

    I'm beginning to think you picked the wrong fandom.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  7. #17

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Do you even like her or are you just basing this on stereotypes of fanboys?
    Both. I liked the idea of episode 2. I liked hating her in BW. Everything related to her in SC2 is garbage though. What I find interesting from reading your comment is that you seem to think that SC2 is the only way that the story can go down. I think pretty much everyone here had a very different story idea for SC2 in the early 2000's. I also think that everyone here would agree that SC2 was extremely mishandled. You don't need a new blank slate to make something interesting.

    The thing is, I like the whole package that is SC1/BW. I get the feeling that you don't. You only like some broad settings of the universe. That's fine but like Grad said, you might as well just go create your own universe with whatever you cherry-pick from the franchise.

    Almost every fanfic about her turns her into a lovesick puppy. In one story "Breeding the Queen", and I wish I was making this up, she fucks her pet Zergling every which way. Every time I read her name I cannot help but remember those lurid passages.
    lmao

    You are taking my statement way too literally. What I meant was that Starcraft was about factions and portrayed events through the eyes of members of those factions. It was not about one or two characters who controlled the fate of the universe. The stories should focus on other characters and other plots, not just the twelve or so characters who appeared in the original SC/BW. The point of SC:EN is that it expands the setting to tell many different stories about many different characters across two different wars with many different theaters.
    I think the real question is: what specifically do you see that is stopping anyone from writing spin-offs inside the current universe? You can still write a story about faction wars and what not while keeping everything that happened. Yes, it's harder but again, if you want to color your own shapes, don't buy a coloring book? Or better yet, do a prequel or a sequel far into the future or far away in space. It's not hard: "The UED sent a 2nd expedition but got lost on their way and ended up in a different system far away who is inhabited by a rogue cerebrate who is trying to enslave indigenous aliens of the region. Protoss scientists of the region are trying to stop the cerebrate and etc etc etc...". Is it really this hard? Do I really need a revisionist history for this?

  8. #18

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Okay, I'm gettin' in it now. I don't know if it'll actually help, but whatever.

    Mags, my main problem here is that you're being really insistent about something none of us here are all that troubled about. Kerrigan is a vital character to what happened in the story, and we all recognize that. Yeah, SC2 was a pile of garbage, but it didn't have to be that way. You also appear (forgive me if I have misinterpreted the appearance) to be associating BW with SC2, which is a fallacy. You're blaming Kerri for all the problems with how the story turned out, but it's not her fault. It's Blizzard's. Yes, it's clear from the very beginning that Kerri was going to be the setup for some universe-changing dealio, but that didn't have to turn out the way it did. It could have been for good, evil, neutral, or a combination of the above. Blizzard chose to take it where it went and make it a romance. It was not a romance from the beginning.

    Technically speaking, the story could have worked if Kerrigan were removed, and it could have worked with her around. It could have worked without Raynor, or without Aldaris, with more fantasy elements, or with a brand new character called Gargamon who eats planets. None of these elements are good or bad of themselves, it depends on how they are used, and how they match the needs of the RTS format and the expectations of the audience. Could Starcraft been good without Kerrigan? Sure. It also coulda sucked hard. Her presence or absence is indifferent. The presence or absence of terrible writers is not indifferent.

    Like it or not, bro, Kerrigan is here to stay. She's too vital a part of the story to disappear. If she were a character introduced in BW or SC2, I would view your opinion more favorably. As it is, Kerrigan is there from day one. She's one of the first people we're introduced to and her fate is a major part of Starcraft. You can't hate on her general existence without hating on Starcraft itself. Any imagining of Starcraft without her is in the realm of fanfiction.

    As much as I support fanfiction, it is not exactly high class writing, or canon writing that one can hold insistent opinions on. Quite frankly, your insistence reminds me of the time someone once criticized me in the Mega Man section in ff.net for not making two Mega Man X characters in a romance. She insisted that because most of the fans thought these two characters dated in the past (Alia and Gate, for the record), then I need to show that in the story. Nope. It wasn't in the games, I don't have to do it. Likewise, your fanon states that Kerrigan isn't in Starcraft, but she is. Fanon of any type is automatically unreliable. It's not personal, it's just how it is. No matter how much you don't want Kerrigan, her absence is your fanon.

    Hey man, write fanfiction if you want to. If it's good I'll leave a good review. Just don't be surprised if other people don't treat your fanon like canon.




    As far as characters go, I feel ya. As a writer, I continually observe things and the nature of storytelling. Some stories have main characters, and some characters are ensemble. And some are in-between. Like Starcraft. In SC, so far as I can observe, the main characters are Raynor, Kerrigan, and Mengsk. They're the ones who reveal the world to us, and their dynamic creates conflict that all three races have to deal with. However, because Starcraft's openness comes from having other characters with very significant roles. In other words, Starcraft has main characters, but since it treats the supporting characters with significance, the "main character-ness" is less obvious.


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  9. #19

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    So if I understand you guys correctly, you want the series to remain trapped in a tiny, stagnant box where Kerry, Raynor and Mengsk are the only characters of consequence, despite the massive size and populations of the Koprulu sector and Protoss space? And if anyone wants to tell stories about other characters, you want them to set those in another far flung region of space unconnected to the Koprulu sector?

    I could not disagree more. I suggest you follow your own advice and make the adventures of Kerry the psychic demigoddess and other bizzare tangents into a "Metzen universe" spin-off. Meanwhile, the "Phinney universe" can tell every other imaginable story like the adventures of Jack Frost, Andraxxus, John Raynor, Kaloth, Ulrezaj, Scar the Zergling, or the bazillion other characters who existed in the long forgotten EU.

    Are you willing to compromise and allow both worlds to exist separately? I would really like to get to discussing SC:EN on its own merits without fighting a pissing contest over whose fictional wife is sexier.

  10. #20

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    I mean it. If you are going to petition Blizzard to make your own version of Starcraft 2: The Continuing Adventures of Kerry, then why not a second alternate universe where the Zerg don't have their thunder stolen? I already made up the Metzenverse and Phinneyverse terminology. If we have Heroes of the Storm making the multiverse canon, then why not explore that?

    The Metzenverse is the brainchild of Metzen, except with the BW retcons replacing the original backstory. The Zerg were space bugs sent by the Xel'naga to kill the Protoss and the Terrans happened to be in their path. Kerry was a special snowflake who took them over. The Terrans have always had contact with Earth, but only the aliens and Mengsk's succession made Earth care about them. Duran is a xel'naga agent who is trying to make hybrids, which was the reason they created the Zerg and Protoss. The Zerg were uncontrollable beasts until Kerry took over and Duran played her like a flute.

    The Phinneyverse follows from Phinney's original backstory plus the elaboration given by ToxicDefiler. This universe focuses on the galactic war between the Zerg, Protoss and Terrans. The Zerg want perfection by assimilating the Protoss, but first they need a weapon. The Terrans fit the bill and become embroiled in the conflict. It is a really dark setting that does not have demigods or prophecies.

    Seriously, Heroes of the Storm has characters from SC, WC and Diablo fighting together. Two alternate universes, one for Kerry and one for everything else, should be easy to swallow.

    Can you guys accept that compromise? You want Kerry, I want Zerg. Everyone is happy, right?

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