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Thread: Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

  1. #491

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    That depends on how you'd make the thread, and it has to actually build off of a reasonable amount of the existing lore, not just "tear EVERYTHING down and start from scratch."

  2. #492

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    That depends on how you'd make the thread, and it has to actually build off of a reasonable amount of the existing lore, not just "tear EVERYTHING down and start from scratch."
    The rip-off did start from scratch. It was a completely original universe. Remember?

    This thread we are discussing in right now is the one that recycled existing lore.

    But considering your hysterical response to everything I post, I don’t see the point now

  3. #493

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Hey Misla, given your particular setup, how would you expect the mainline story to finish? I know you said the setup allows endless types of stories within it, but I'm interested in knowing if you have a particular endgame in mind. Much as you hate Starcraft as it is and how hackneyed it can be at times, the mainline story still came to an end/a resolution of some form and I'm curious if you intend one for this reboot.

    I have a feeling you may cop-out and say "I intended this to be forever open for endless stories" like how the WH40K universe is kind of set in this constant stagnation of the status quo despite insinuations of huge turns at any moment, but I really want to know how you would conceive a culmination or end for this setup you've devised.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  4. #494

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Hey Misla, given your particular setup, how would you expect the mainline story to finish? I know you said the setup allows endless types of stories within it, but I'm interested in knowing if you have a particular endgame in mind. Much as you hate Starcraft as it is and how hackneyed it can be at times, the mainline story still came to an end/a resolution of some form and I'm curious if you intend one for this reboot.

    I have a feeling you may cop-out and say "I intended this to be forever open for endless stories" like how the WH40K universe is kind of set in this constant stagnation of the status quo despite insinuations of huge turns at any moment, but I really want to know how you would conceive a culmination or end for this setup you've devised.
    The short answer is that there are two possible endings. A good ending where the terrans and protoss destroy all the zerg forever, and a bad ending where the zerg eat everyone then go on to eat other galaxies.

    The longer answer is that you are right about me not wanting to explore the stories past the terran sector wars. The point is to provide a story for the Starcraft game mechanics, which necessarily means conflict between the terrans, zerg and protoss. If I tried to explore a tangential conflict like the zerg invasion of the protoss empire, then the presence of the terrans would be superfluous. The absence of one side would be fine for single campaigns within the broader three-way conflict, but I don't currently consider it viable on its own because it ignores a whole third of the game.

    But that only applies if the setting's macguffin is the determinant. If we ignore the canon story completely and take the game mechanics in isolation, there is any number of campaign settings you could potentially devise around a conflict between the three races.

    The determinant is one way to drive a conflict, but it isn't the only way. These are just the plots that Blizzard went through:
    • The 1996 Starcraft website teased that there was a cold war between the terran and protoss galactic empires, which was broken when the zerg invaded. We don't get much detail on how the conflict might play out, but apparently Executor Oong led an occupation of Koprulu sector in order to study ancient ruins that might provide vital intel on dealing with the zerg threat. The zerg are not given any motivations. This version of the plot was discarded when Blizzard decided to retool the art due to a scam at the E3, changing SC's combat setting from seemingly purely aerospace to a mix of ground and air.
    • The 1998 manual went on a whole spiel about the zerg needing the determinant to stand a chance against the protoss galactic empire. The whole thing was extremely vague, so all the logistics, execution, etc was left to the reader's imagination. The game script took an extremely fast and loose interpretation of this premise, which was full of narrative shortcuts that didn't make much sense upon careful analysis, and one that I personally feel is at odds with the manual's own framing device.
    • Brood War pulled a plot about the evil xel'naga return out of its butt that was inconsistent with both the manual and the prior installment (Metzen had a big problem with forgetting what he wrote). SC2 would expand on this, and we all saw how that turned out. But long story short, the evil xel'naga created the zerg to destroy the protoss and create hybrids who would usher paradise or whatever.


    I'm sure you could imagine plenty more, like a copy of the plots of StarFront or Halo or something. While my brainstorming so far has focused on the determinant campaign setting, I am open to exploring other separate campaign settings with different drivers. But regardless of which, they have to be written consistently and I don't want the discussion to degenerate into an argument over which is better.

    If we decided to explore the "evil xel'naga leading zerg against protoss" campaign setting, then we need to put actual thought into it unlike Blizzard. I think it is impossible to salvage the plot of canon, so we would have to write the whole scenario from scratch while recycling concepts from the canon lore. The first problem that comes up is trying to justify the presence of terrans: we need a compelling reason for the zerg and protoss to war with them in the first place, rather than than ignore them like all the other advanced alien civilizations stated to exist in the background.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Much as you hate Starcraft as it is and how hackneyed it can be at times, the mainline story still came to an end/a resolution of some form
    Starcraft did not come a resolution any more than Warcraft did. Starcraft suffers from sequelitis and this will continue to plague any future titles. As an intellectual property, Starcraft was created with multiplayer in mind first and the story was an afterthought. The overwhelming majority of online chatter about Starcraft is about the multiplayer, mechanics, e-sports, etc.

    The Kerry/Raynor/Mengsk/Amon drama was never the main story of Starcraft as an intellectual property, despite what you and others may argue. It was the first major story arc featured in the Starcraft universe and long overstayed its welcome, but future installments will have new story arcs featuring original characters.

  5. #495

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The Kerry/Raynor/Mengsk/Amon drama was never the main story of Starcraft as an intellectual property, despite what you and others may argue. It was the first major story arc featured in the Starcraft universe and long overstayed its welcome, but future installments will have new story arcs featuring original characters.
    Of course not, that should have only been a small part of a bigger picture. Well, for Amon it could have been better if he actually had more detailed reasons for why he did what he did

  6. #496

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Of course not, that should have only been a small part of a bigger picture.
    We both agree on this. Hell must have frozen over.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Well, for Amon it could have been better if he actually had more detailed reasons for why he did what he did
    Amon was added during a rewrite. Originally all the xel'naga were evil and created the zerg to destroy the protoss as revenge, or something along those lines.

    I don't like the idea because it means mutilating the characterization of the zerg even further, changing them from a devouring swarm (currently enslaved to Kerry because author fiat) into space orcs. This was widely criticized by fans who followed the story, and very few people seemed to like it.

    The Overmind had a sufficient motivation in the form of advancing the zerg at the expense of everything else, so there was never a reason to introduce Amon in the first place except to change the zerg into good guys. Even then Blizzard had to have their cake and eat it too by introducing the primal zerg as inherently evil monsters.

    I always figured that it would be perfectly serviceable for Amon and the Overmind to be the same person. Amon saw the zerg as the future and betrayed the xel'naga to join them, now he oversees their dominion over the universe.

    However, even giving Amon an understandable motivation doesn't change the fact that his actions in canon were nonsensical because Blizzard was retconning everything without bothering with consistency or sensibility. Case in point: Why did he not bring the tal'darim to Zerus and why did he not tell the zerg where Aiur was? In fact, how did the zerg have so much trouble finding Aiur when they canonically have a bazillion deep space probes watching protoss space for centuries and they have a psychic sense that should logically allow them to see the psionic matrix from many light years away?

    As I said, it is infeasible to rationalize the canon storyline. It needs to be rewritten. I don't understand why you refuse to accept that. Do you even care about explaining these plot holes or are you just obsessed with Amon like a jealous ex-girlfriend?

    Look, I am willing to explore your campaign setting about the return of the evil xel'naga. I listed it as one of the possible campaign settings I gave as examples. However, I need you to provide quid pro quo otherwise I won't help you.

    You need to stop arguing that your idea is better than mine. You need to stop acting contrary and complaining about everything I post. You need to engage constructively with the determinant campaign setting when I explore it, or you should not reply at all.

    If you can do that, I'm more than happy to entertain your Amon fantasies.

  7. #497

    Default Re: Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

    Here's a re-summary of the possible campaign settings I listed as examples before.
    • Generic Invasion: in this scenario, the terran and protoss were stuck in an uneasy cold war that suddenly burns when the zerg invade from nowhere. While the terrans and protoss are motivated by things like life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness, the zerg just want to eat everyone.
    • The Determinant: in this scenario, the zerg invaded the terrans to assimilate their purity of form for use in weapons against the protoss who would otherwise win a prolonged war. The protoss get involved prematurely due to the terran colonies being on the borders of their space.
    • Revenge of the Xel’naga: in this scenario, the xel’naga created the zerg to destroy the protoss and create the hybrids. There are no terrans because their presence is superfluous.





    Zerg hunger
    The zerg are voracious space bugs. There are only two reasons that the zerg would want to war with the terrans (or anyone else): either the terrans pose a worthwhile threat to the zerg’s interests, or they are a source of a biological resource that cannot be more efficiently acquired by other means. If the zerg are butchering terrans in the process of doing something else like strip-mining a terran planet (a la the tyranids), then that is pest control.

    In Stellaris, the devouring swarm civic has a heavily simplified abstracted reason for eating other species: it provides research points, an important resource in the game mechanics used to pay for all technological research. The same logic could be applied to the zerg: while the terrans don’t provide any vital resources on their own, processing large populations yields research points that may be allocated elsewhere. If I had to hazard a guess for how this works in-universe, then I would guess that it has something to do with pharmaceutical applications derived by mass sequencing of genomes. Since the zerg utilize biotechnology, then this would obviously be of great worth to them.

    However, this has consequences for the narrative. In canon the zerg left the terran sector after they acquired Kerry. Under this logic, they would keep warring until the terrans were all eaten.




    This discussions aren't good for my mental health. They never go anywhere. I'm probably going to take a break after this.

  8. #498

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Look, I am willing to explore your campaign setting about the return of the evil xel'naga. I listed it as one of the possible campaign settings I gave as examples. However, I need you to provide quid pro quo otherwise I won't help you.

    You need to stop arguing that your idea is better than mine. You need to stop acting contrary and complaining about everything I post. You need to engage constructively with the determinant campaign setting when I explore it, or you should not reply at all.

    If you can do that, I'm more than happy to entertain your Amon fantasies.
    I'm not here to ask for your help. Besides for your so-called not replying at all, you should have looked at the battlenet forums (I still plan to return there someday), there's little there but criticism.

  9. #499

    Default Re: Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    [*]Revenge of the Xel’naga: in this scenario, the xel’naga created the zerg to destroy the protoss and create the hybrids. There are no terrans because their presence is superfluous.
    And that didn't fit via the SC1 lore because the Xel'Naga simply underestimated the Overmind. It was why people weren't pleased when WoL revealed the Overmind wasn't entirely the bloodthirsty monster they once thought, which then Blizzard tried to correct in LotV by claiming Amon was the one who made him, and the Overmind didn't care if Amon killed everyone else as long as the zerg species survived, proving if nothing else, it wasn't a "caring" type character.

    It was a shame for these contradictions. Obviously some will have to be ignored and some reinterpreted if you try to tie the lores together.

  10. #500

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The short answer is that there are two possible endings. A good ending where the terrans and protoss destroy all the zerg forever, and a bad ending where the zerg eat everyone then go on to eat other galaxies.
    Okay then, so maybe not the end end, but if you're rewriting the main story campaign with this setup, what would you conceive to be a natural end point of the first arc? How many story arcs do you think there'd be to resolve it? If you don't intend to resolve it, how would you maintain interest in the mainline story in the long run?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The first problem that comes up is trying to justify the presence of terrans: we need a compelling reason for the zerg and protoss to war with them in the first place, rather than than ignore them like all the other advanced alien civilizations stated to exist in the background.
    I think in order for the Terrans to be maintained as one of the three is to completely rewrite their origins in the K-sector. They are otherwise way to weak to believably last against ancient and powerful alien races as lain out in the manual. You can still keep the determinant plot point but the Terrans just need to have a far reaching presence and be well established. This may mean having to shift the date in which the war takes place since 100 years or so of Terran development from scratch/when they crash-landed in the K-sector is just not enough. It's that or have Earth included and that Terrans are spread out across the galaxy. They can still be the "weakest of the three" but are really a sleeping giant like how the Trader Emergency Coalition are represented in Sins of a Solar Empire. Sure, I know you want the "human tenacity prevails over all despite not having the actual power/means/capability" thing but it just doesn't hold any verisimilitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Starcraft did not come a resolution any more than Warcraft did.
    I was speaking on very broad level there, like, as in it had an ending where things were addressed and that it was ok for it to not continue should it not do so. Sc1 and BW have that even despite their "sequel bait".
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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