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Thread: Starcraft reboot ideas discussion thread

  1. #261

    Default Re: How could we return the franchise to the SC1 beta status quo?

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo View Post
    We're basically at a point where I'd say "have at it" its now the wild west for SC.
    It's not to the point where anything goes, Stratos. Ok yes they can do that for SC3, but there's no evidence they'd do that. Last I checked in the history books, the wild west is devoid of laws.....

  2. #262

    Default Re: How could we return the franchise to the SC1 beta status quo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    So what do you suppose Ouros' motivation as a villain would be?
    Haven't really thought that far nor feel motivated to consider it, honestly. If anything, I suppose it'd be some typical villain excuse like Amon's. I don't really care what it is, I'm just trying to derive what little amusement I can by seeing Ouros in that light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    This is Blizzard we are talking about. They use that exact type of retcon all the time, to the point where they had to release Warcraft Chronicles simply so that everybody would know what the heck was even going on because the lore had become so convoluted. Absolutely nothing is sacred to them.
    I know, that's why it's not worth following, even if they do retcon it back to the way it was prior to Sc1. It'd just be another obviously overwrought and vapid excuse akin to saying all the stuff that happened in was a dream (which they might as well just outright do since I wouldn't bat an eyelid either way). It's not worth investing time in something that has no foundation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Using World of Warcraft as a metric, it makes perfect sense that Blizzard would bring back the Overmind and the Khala simply to force the original conflict back into place. It does not matter if it makes little sense in the context of previous storylines, they need a reason for everyone to fight again after SC2 ended in peace similarly to WC3.
    Not really, they could literally pull anything out to continue it. It doesn't have to regress back to the pre-Sc1 setup in order to continue. It's only but one way, but either way, they'd all just be an excuse to continue for the sake of continuing. Just say no to Sequelitis!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    After my first thread bombed I made a different one and tried to be less bitter about the storytelling decline. I even allowed a Q&A option so that people could learn without bothering to read the resources I provided. People still complained about the changes and nobody was interested in reading or asking about it or contributing any original ideas. I am getting pretty sick of people telling me that the only real Starcraft is the adventures of QoB and nothing else is worth their consideration.
    That's because that's the only real Starcraft left to talk about, which is the point of this forum. That was already shat upon by Sc2, they don't need someone else to suggest Sc1 was really just shit as well. Also, there aren't many people here anymore because Sc2 pretty much killed any interest and motivation in the lore/story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Games Workshop has gotten tons of mileage from licensing Warhammer 40k for numerous different games. Total War: Warhammer proved immensely popular and profitable AFAIK.
    One can dream I suppose. Won't be holding my breath anytime soon though.

    Quote Originally Posted by KaiserStratosTygo View Post
    I take some issue with this, its already not worth following since SC2 already retconned everything to death, honestly nothing really matters anymore, so even continuing "logically" from the already broken illogical SC2 is every bit as pointless and worthless as what Mislagnissa wants to do with the counter retcons.

    We're basically at a point where I'd say "have at it" its now the wild west for SC.
    Not sure if you've misinterpreted what I wrote, but it seems to me like we're on the same page/saying the same thing.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  3. #263

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    You may like The Adventures of Raynor and Kerry (my brutally honest pet name for Blizzard's campaigns), but to treat that as the be-all-end-all of the franchise is a senseless waste of the IP's otherwise immense storytelling potential. The amount of power they personally wield within the setting is so absurd as to be unbelievable. Perhaps the most interesting stories in the expanded universe were the ones that did not involve Raynor and Kerry.
    I disagree with your assertion that it's the adventures of Raynor and Kerri. However, I'll back out of a debate in the interests of keeping this thread on track.

    Um, I think mainly that there's really no need to redo Starcraft. Just by choosing different characters and following a different story one can increase the depth of the world. And add more characters to the Zerg.


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  4. #264

    Default Re: How could we return the franchise to the SC1 beta status quo?

    I thought SC1 was actually very good, at least during the rebel yell arc. It was only after that when things went into a very weird direction.

    The context of the campaigns was only explained in the manual. If you did not have the manual, you would not understand the context. The official website circa 1998 also included some bonus materials, like the terrans studying the zerg for years, intercepting and translating protoss transmissions (who then spoke Latin phrases), and some foreshadowing that the terrans might try to strip mine worlds owned by the protoss. If the game were made today all of those details could be included in the game itself, which I am going to assume for the purpose of argument.

    A key weakness of the story is that each race's POV is only told chronologically, despite key characters like Tassadar being present in the other campaigns. Key plot points either occur offscreen and are only mentioned, or relegated to deleted scenes. The characters are not really used effectively in the other campaigns. Much of this is due to the limited format at the time, as if SC1 came out today it would have side campaigns like SC2. So I am going to assume that the hypothetical modern SC1 had these side campaigns exploring Tassadar and Zeratul.

    After Rebel Yell the plot goes off in a bizarre tangent. The most recent rendition of this was in the Queen of Blades novel, which I will assume is the story told (ignoring plot holes).

    Anyhow, the Queen of Blades story arc is very different from the previous in narrative structure and even genre. Rebel Yell was fairly grounded military scifi with really warped morality, since the cast commits genocide twice with little to no remorse. The Queen of Blades arc is much more fantasical, as it introduces multiple plot devices. QoB herself is made out to be some kind of zerg messiah and the dark templar have a trump card to defeat the immortal zerg leaders. None of these things were suggested in the manual and feel closer to the fantasy genre.

    I did not like that departure. I would have preferred the setting to remain grounded throughout.

    Anyway, the single key narrative weakness of SC1 is that it introduces and resolves a galactic war over a single game. Hence, every single campaign features at least one plot device (psi emitter, queen o' blades, dark templar, tassadar's sacrifice) to speed things up even if the logic behind it is questionable at best. In a universe without plot devices, the war could provide material for a massive multimedia franchise.

    That's why I liked Enumerate. It still uses some of the plot devices I criticized but it has a far larger scale and no mythic heroes. If you think my PR sucks, and I think it does, then please give me advice? How can I build interest in an alternate universe without QoB, UED and the return of the xel'naga?

  5. #265

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    I disagree with your assertion that it's the adventures of Raynor and Kerri. However, I'll back out of a debate in the interests of keeping this thread on track.

    Um, I think mainly that there's really no need to redo Starcraft. Just by choosing different characters and following a different story one can increase the depth of the world. And add more characters to the Zerg.
    That is not possible. Metzen's narrative invested Raynor and Kerry the power to rewrite the setting however they desired. You cannot tell a story about other characters without living in their shadow.

    Kerry killed off the zerg hierarchy and ruined any chance to explore the brood politics teased in the manual. The UED pointlessly contradicted the manual and reduced the Umojans and KMC to obscurity. The protoss were reduced to living on a single planet.

    The BW continuity is vastly less expansive than the continuity teased by the manual. It kept shrinking. I dislike that.

    That is why some of the most popular and creative custom campaigns take place outside Koprulu and ignore game canon.

  6. #266

    Default Re: How could we return the franchise to the SC1 beta status quo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    How can I build interest in an alternate universe without QoB, UED and the return of the xel'naga?
    Wait, I thought you weren't interested in the Xel'Naga EVER returning....

  7. #267

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That is not possible. Metzen's narrative invested Raynor and Kerry the power to rewrite the setting however they desired. You cannot tell a story about other characters without living in their shadow.
    In Raynor's case it's necessary on the Protoss end, save for the Tal'darim. Rosemary Dahl specifically said that Raynor did well as an ambassador

  8. #268

    Default Re: How could we return the franchise to the SC1 beta status quo?

    "How can I build interest in an alternate universe without QoB, UED and the return of the xel'naga?"
    Start making campaign maps in that universe.

  9. #269

    Default Re: Reboot the franchise? What direction would you go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That is not possible.
    Course it's possible. The only enjoyment I've derived in terms of lore and story for Sc throughout the period of Sc2 were those independent short-stories that had nothing to do with either Raynor or Kerrigan. They followed their own characters and were really good in expanding the depth of the universe by showing us the viewpoint of other "little" people/characters and their (albeit lacking in scale compared to the main story, they were no less epic in terms of impact) tribulations.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  10. #270

    Default Re: How could we return the franchise to the SC1 beta status quo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I thought SC1 was actually very good, at least during the rebel yell arc
    To be contrarian yet fair, Rebel Yell is largely superfluous to the Sc1 story since it's about this insignificant group of Terrans who have no ultimate bearing on the more epic goings on of the Zerg Overmind and the high-mind and powerful Protoss. Despite it telling a decent story, one can ignore it really and be none the wiser - if it weren't for the Kerrigan connective tissue. Even if it weren't for Kerrigan - who is sidelined at the end of Overmind anyway - Rebel Yell has no real narrative value to the story of Sc1 beyond looking at one aspect of the Terrans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The official website circa 1998 also included some bonus materials, like the terrans studying the zerg for years, intercepting and translating protoss transmissions (who then spoke Latin phrases), and some foreshadowing that the terrans might try to strip mine worlds owned by the protoss.
    I never liked or believed the former but I can believe the latter. The problem with the Confeds knowing too much about the Zerg sort of undermines how they are ultimately and completely caught unawares or be totally defeated by them (no less by someone who wasn't really sure about their true nature; Mengsk in Sc1 doesn't actually know that the Zerg are not a Confederate created superweapon for example). Sure, it's probably a needed retcon I suppose in order to boost the strength of the Terrans in the face of the opposition they're facing but the manual has always implied/suggested that the Terrans are weak compared to either Zerg or the Protoss and ignorant of their threat.

    The tension of Protoss and Terrans was hinted in the manual where the Protoss did show disdain at the Terrans predilection for strip-mining worlds and not taking care/responsibility afterward in contrast to their Dae'Uhl. Whether this would prompt eventual open hostilities by the Protoss would be another thing since the Dae'Uhl would technically prevent them from interfering overtly unless the Terrans were hostile first. This would be interesting since it would make the K sector Terrans the antagonist in this sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    A key weakness of the story is that each race's POV is only told chronologically
    I wouldn't necessarily call this a weakness per se. I don't necessarily want to see one event from three perspectives because nothing really progresses and you'd know the outcome of the two other takes because of how the first one ends. This style tends to work when you have the sides do things from their own perspective and progressive chronologically at the same time from the start but then ultimately arrives to divergent outcomes at the end (sort of like how C&C stories tended to play out).

    I like how Sc1 take is from the POV of each different race but progresses through time normally. It gives a sense of a reality that is unfolding and that sometimes you don't know all the answers yet things continue on regardless. It makes sense that other stuff happens around the periphery without our knowledge because our POV is purposefully restricted to focus on the interests of that race we're following.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Anyway, the single key narrative weakness of SC1 is that it introduces and resolves a galactic war over a single game.
    It also potentially allowed a status quo to sort of form, too. All 3 races have suffered enormous losses by the end of Sc1, so the potential of them being on more equal footing has never been closer than before. Then BW made the Zerg OP, the Protoss even more UP and the Terrans having miraculous comebacks from nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That's why I liked Enumerate. It still uses some of the plot devices I criticized but it has a far larger scale and no mythic heroes. If you think my PR sucks, and I think it does, then please give me advice? How can I build interest in an alternate universe without QoB, UED and the return of the xel'naga?
    Just keep on talking about the stuff you like. Just don't expect many people to respond - not because of lack of specific interest to your take but rather because this forum's a desert.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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