Page 9 of 14 FirstFirst ... 7891011 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 132

Thread: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

  1. #81

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    I thought the UED fleet got attacked in normal space. Maybe they were going to a rendezvous before going back to Earth.
    She probably only gave them a small window to run but then smoked them before they could get into warp space. It's that or she lied (as she's wont to do) and promptly sluaghtered them without giving them a chance to run regardless of what she said, cos she's a self-admitted bitch.
    Fair points. I was just assuming that they'd go in warpspace asap but it's true that maybe they had to rendezvous and maybe Kerrigan lied and came earlier than expected. It's also never really shown/explained before SC2 how Terran FTL works iirc(I might be wrong here but I don't remember if we ever see a Terran ship use warpspace). Maybe they need to "charge up" for weeks or refuel; who knows. In SC2, it looks pretty instantaneous which is where I was getting this idea from that they wouldn't just wait around and there would be no opportunity to catch them off guard on the run. But, again that is SC2 logic and I doubt it was decided back in BW.

    Same here. Did they ever specify WHERE the fleet was upon being attacked?
    Afaik, the most we know is that it happened after Dugalle shot himself so probably around whatever area they were in that cinematic.

    But the Protoss and Terrans have access to and use WMDs of various sorts in military engagements already. That didn't stop the Zerg.
    In BW, this is mostly for Doylist reasons. In Vanilla, it seemed pretty effective to me in a scorched earth policy kind of way. Unless you meant stopping completely? That is explained because the Overmind was immortal.

    Besides, the Zerg are probably aware of such weapons and would have devised tactics to get around them.
    Why didn't they try to destroy Tassadar's fleet then? It makes perfect sense that they just couldn't. It's not a static target that you can overrun. It appears in and out of nowhere, blows up everything and then disappears.

    Like you said, the overmind isn't dumb. His plan wasn't to fight a fight he couldn't win. He knew he couldn't hold any kind of power over the Protoss unless he hit them where it hurts: Aiur.

    Eh, we can take this into the absurd by wondering why the Protoss even bother to engage in close-quarter combat at all when fighting enemies on worlds that are not their homeworld, really.
    Correct me if I'm wrong but there's absolutely no occurrence of Protoss willingly engaging in close-quarter combat in Vanilla if they didn't have to. First, they get stopped by Mengsk on their way to Tarsonis, then you see Tass and the DT on Char and then boom you're on Aiur. I would say the same about the Terran. Basically, there never was a good strategic situation to use the WMD(minus Tassadar).

    In BW, well.. that's where it gets messy anyways. I get your point about ending it there though. To be honest, if I wouldn't first have experienced BW at a young age, I don't know how I'd feel about the prospect of a sequel. Maybe I'd think like you. Either way, I still believe the story was salvageable after BW. You'd have some explaining to do but it wasn't that far down until sc2 dragged it down to hell. But I guess we just disagree on this.
    Last edited by sandwich_bird; 12-07-2017 at 01:32 PM.

  2. #82

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Regarding the Protoss strategy; Tassadar fully engaged the zerg at Tarsonis, deploying ground forces to the surface to prevent the extermination of human lives. And this turned into a complete debacle. The zerg slaughtered his ground troops, and scattered his fleet. The remainder of the survivors were hunted down and killed on Char by either Kerrigan or Daggoth. In all these engagements, the protoss lost by a seemingly wide margin.

  3. #83
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,806

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    On Tarsonis the Protoss were in a free for all between the Sons of Korhal, the Confederates, and the Zerg. After that, the main protoss fleet retreated and Tassadar was basically left with stragglers; it was all downhill from that point.

  4. #84

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    In BW, this is mostly for Doylist reasons. In Vanilla, it seemed pretty effective to me in a scorched earth policy kind of way.
    I dunno whether you can only just reduce BW's implied lack of WMD usage as "Doylist reasons" without it also being the explanation for their lack of use in specific instances of Sc1 as well. The Terrans have always had access to nukes with various yields, all of which are effective against Zerg, and are more than happy to use them (Ghosts can call in tactical nukes) and yet they still get crushed. Tassadar was on Char for the vast majority of Sc1 and must have had at least the Gantrithor or some other ship with a planet cracker/WMD with him, yet they persist in a largely ground based melee the whole time.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Why didn't they try to destroy Tassadar's fleet then?
    Tassadar being stranded on Char and needing rescue tends to suggest that his fleet may well have been wrecked. Being the Executor of the Protoss' military and that he was burning worlds with WMDs up until Tarsonis means that he'd have access to WMDs at the time to fend off the Zerg after the Tarsonis debacle, yet he's still hard-pressed by the Zerg on Char when Aldaris come to find him. This suggests the finest of the Protoss military, even with all their WMDs, are not enough to stop the Zerg overpowering them.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but there's absolutely no occurrence of Protoss willingly engaging in close-quarter combat in Vanilla if they didn't have to. First, they get stopped by Mengsk on their way to Tarsonis, then you see Tass and the DT on Char and then boom you're on Aiur. I would say the same about the Terran. Basically, there never was a good strategic situation to use the WMD(minus Tassadar).
    The engagement on Char is a significant close-quarter encounter. Tassadar either had his fleet/WMDs then or he didn't. If it was the former, he should have no compunction to use such WMDs in this context since the world isn't populated with Terrans like Tarsonis was and he knows it's a staging ground for the Zerg. That we aren't notified of whether or not such Protoss WMDs are used in this instance implies either a) a Doylist excuse like the author forgot about them or decided not to have the Protoss use WMDs, b) a Watsonian excuse like the Protoss did use them but it ended up not being enough or c) equally Doylist and Watsonian excuse like they were disabled, faulty or unable to be used effectively or efficiently enough against the Zerg due to battle damage from the debacle at Tarsonis. The Watsonian excuses of b) and c) would suggest the Protoss and Zerg can fight on equal times. If it's the latter option of Tassdar not having his fleet/WMDs at his disposal on Char (whereas he would have at Tarsonis prior to this engagement), than that just goes to show that even with their mighty fleet and WMDs at their disposal, the Zerg can meet the Protoss toe-to-toe even when facing such weapons and win.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    To be honest, if I wouldn't first have experienced BW at a young age, I don't know how I'd feel about the prospect of a sequel. Maybe I'd think like you.
    Young age? I was around 15/16 when I first experienced SC1 and BW. It certainly got me thinking back then of all the dangling bits that could've been explored in a possible sequel but the more I thought about it, the more I realised it was more fun speculating about it than having it actually materialise. That and my cynicism for sequels grew ever more sharper over time.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  5. #85
    Zoar's Avatar Junior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    53

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Or perhaps its because they Protoss don't feel its "honorable combat"

  6. #86

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Regarding the Protoss strategy; Tassadar fully engaged the zerg at Tarsonis, deploying ground forces to the surface to prevent the extermination of human lives. And this turned into a complete debacle. The zerg slaughtered his ground troops, and scattered his fleet. The remainder of the survivors were hunted down and killed on Char by either Kerrigan or Daggoth. In all these engagements, the protoss lost by a seemingly wide margin.
    On Tarsonis the Protoss were in a free for all between the Sons of Korhal, the Confederates, and the Zerg. After that, the main protoss fleet retreated and Tassadar was basically left with stragglers; it was all downhill from that point.
    Tassadar being stranded on Char and needing rescue tends to suggest that his fleet may well have been wrecked. Being the Executor of the Protoss' military and that he was burning worlds with WMDs up until Tarsonis means that he'd have access to WMDs at the time to fend off the Zerg after the Tarsonis debacle, yet he's still hard-pressed by the Zerg on Char when Aldaris come to find him. This suggests the finest of the Protoss military, even with all their WMDs, are not enough to stop the Zerg overpowering them.
    Just so that we're all on the same line here, correct me if I'm wrong but here's how this went down:
    -Zergs start overrunning Tarsonis because of the psi emitter
    -Tassadar and his small recon fleet comes to Tarsonis to stop the zerg. He disobey conclave orders and refuses to use WMD to save human lives. Instead he opt to fight in "conventional close quarter combat".
    -Kerrigan stops him on his way and he gets stuck in a ffa between SoK/Confed/Zerg
    -Things aren't working out on Tarsonis and the conclave orders him to come back to Aiur to stand trial for his disobedience which led to the failure of the operation.
    -Tassadar sends most of his fleet back to Aiur but keep his personal ship and follow a "signal" that leads him to Char.
    -There, he meets the DT and Raynor. He learns how cerebrates work and then leave to tell Aiur.

    Now, I don't know how that would disprove what I'm claiming. Basically, what I'm saying is:

    -The Protoss can use WMD and if it wasn't for the fact that the overmind was immortal, the Protoss would simply annihilate the zerg with ease by blowing up the overmind.
    -If you don't kill the zerg leaders, you can't win against them. If you engage in close quarter combat, you will probably lose against them. Static target are doomed against zergs.
    -Zerg only strategy against "terrorist" attacks is to dry out the enemy. You can't dry out the enemy if you can't hit their center of power.
    -A terrorist attack with WMD is highly/demonstrably plausible and is enough to kill a "target" if it isn't immortal. It's unclear if Kerrigan is immortal.

    More specifically in regards to the episodes:

    -After Mar Sara and according to the characters motivations, there was no situation in which it made sense to use WMD and this is why they aren't used in SC1
    -In BW, in contrast to Vanilla, there is at least one(but probably more) opportunity to use WMD and that is at the final mission. Furthermore, this would align with the characters' motivations. Yet, they don't use that weaponry because of Doylist reasons aka the writers wanted Kerrigan to win and made each respective character make the stupid decision of engaging in close quarter combat.




    I dunno whether you can only just reduce BW's implied lack of WMD usage as "Doylist reasons" without it also being the explanation for their lack of use in specific instances of Sc1 as well.
    That's the thing, there is always an explanation in SC1. On Tarsonis, Tassadar didn't want to kill humans so he can't use WMD. On Char:

    1. It's unclear how strong Tassadar forces are but it's understood that they're small. It's unclear if he has the means to make a hit and run. It's unclear if he has access to a WMD (his ship might be able to do it at that point in time, not sure).
    2. He's not there to destroy everything. He's there to investigate. Once he learned enough, it makes more sense for him to ask for the "infinite" might of Aiur than try to end it alone with his ragtag team.

    Similarly to number 2, Duke and Raynor are not mainly there to destroy everything. They are there to investigate and seek Kerrigan. Duke had the order to destroy everything, but he was firstly there to get Kerrigan because she called up to Mengsk in his dream. If he'd use WMD, he'd risk killing Kerrigan. Of course, he got attacked and then retreated. It's plausible that he underestimated what he would face there and it's plausible that the next step would have been to use WMD but we never had the time to see it. Of course, that wouldn't have done much of anything because the overmind is immortal and it also left to go to Aiur.

    Young age? I was around 15/16 when I first experienced SC1 and BW. It certainly got me thinking back then of all the dangling bits that could've been explored in a possible sequel but the more I thought about it, the more I realised it was more fun speculating about it than having it actually materialise. That and my cynicism for sequels grew ever more sharper over time.
    I was 10-11, rented it over the weekends on the N64 Good times. I only fully finished it (with cheat codes cause I sucked) on pc during the summer before I started high school though.


    Or perhaps its because they Protoss don't feel its "honorable combat"
    It's honorable enough to burn down Mar Sara though!

  7. #87
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,806

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    I pretty much agree with that Sandwich. But in BW Aldaris mentions that they've lost their "great fleets" and they're in a weakened state, so that's why they don't use WMDs.

    I mean in BW everyone is in a weakened state, let alone after. The huge powerup that everyone got in SC2 was just insane.

  8. #88

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    I pretty much agree with that Sandwich. But in BW Aldaris mentions that they've lost their "great fleets" and they're in a weakened state, so that's why they don't use WMDs.

    I mean in BW everyone is in a weakened state, let alone after. The huge powerup that everyone got in SC2 was just insane.
    It's a bit hard to believe that they don't have at least a few WMDs left(you really only need 1 super protoss ship or 1 apocalypse missile + a tactical force) or that any of them aren't trying/succeeding to get some more but it's admittedly not impossible considering everything else.

    But, returning to what started this whole convo. I still maintain that, post-BW, it would have made sense in this universe for Raynor and friends to at least manage to gather some WMD and launch a possibly successful surgical strike on Kerrigan. In other words, not all was lost even if it wasn't looking good. It would have made a nice SC2 story imo. At least millions of time better than what we got.

  9. #89
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,806

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    I always thought that was what Omega was about. They’re trying to stage up a staging area for nuking the shit out of Char, otherwise the nukes or Protoss ships are just going to get shot down by scourges or other fliers.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Brood War wasn't great, here's why, we deserve better, here's how

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    I always thought that was what Omega was about. They’re trying to stage up a staging area for nuking the shit out of Char, otherwise the nukes or Protoss ships are just going to get shot down by scourges or other fliers.
    Afaik, they came for Kerrigan and she was on the platform, not directly on Char. You're defending her and her main base of operation in Omega. It is similar, just no use of super nukes and etc. Either they were just really sure of themselves or they badly planned due to a reactionary attitude or they didn't have any wmd like you said.

    Side note: kinda funny that in SC2, if you chose that leviathan mission, Raynor and part of the Dominion are able to do on hard mode what the Dominion + UED + Artanis were not able to do.

Similar Threads

  1. The Great Overmind Roulette
    By Turalyon in forum StarCraft Universe Lore Discussion
    Replies: 105
    Last Post: 03-03-2011, 12:47 AM
  2. A great song
    By Beetle in forum Off-Topic Lounge
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-05-2010, 08:43 AM
  3. Great new strategy to win!
    By Sietsh-Tenk in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-23-2010, 09:56 PM
  4. The great Carrier debacle
    By Wankey in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 02-21-2010, 10:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •