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Thread: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

  1. #61

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Wait, Behemoths are in the game?
    Many of us didn't initially know, VoK, trust me. I originally had thought they were first mentioned in the DT Saga

  2. #62

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Maybe there were multiple populations of the Gargantis genus, some of whom had space flight and some that did not? Maybe those that settled on Zerus before the rise of the Zerg lost their space flight adaptation due to mutation?
    Perhaps, but then you'd have to consider why it was specifically mentioned they were space-faring at all, right? Saying the manual was incorrect or that it meant something entirely else is to court contradiction to solve an apparent contradiction and that does not get you to Occam's razor. If we are to take everything said in the manual at face value/being all true, deduction would suggest that the Gargantis being the core genus of the Overlord is for the Overlords seen in Sc1 and not the early Overlords as described in the Zerg History since it can fit and there is no contradictory evidence against it.
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  3. #63
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    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Perhaps, but then you'd have to consider why it was specifically mentioned they were space-faring at all, right? Saying the manual was incorrect or that it meant something entirely else is to court contradiction to solve an apparent contradiction and that does not get you to Occam's razor. If we are to take everything said in the manual at face value/being all true, deduction would suggest that the Gargantis being the core genus of the Overlord is for the Overlords seen in Sc1 and not the early Overlords as described in the Zerg History since it can fit and there is no contradictory evidence against it.
    The manual has several irreconcilable contradictions. In the history section the overlords and "gargantuan, space-faring life forms" are clearly separate entities. In the units section they are conflated and called "space-faring behemoths."

    The games and expanded universe get worse. "The Warp" cinematic, "Shadow of the Xel'naga" and the Galaxy Editor apparently split the overlords and behemoth/leviathan/bio-ship/whatever into different entities. "Just an Overlord" gives the overlords an inverted backstory where they summoned the Zerg rather than the other way around.

    Taking these sources at face value, we get the following series of events:
    1. "overlords" (core genus: unknown) assimilated on Zerus, used as control nexuses and transport
    2. "gargantuan, space-faring life forms" (core genus: behemoth?) lured by beacon, assimilated
    3. Zerg leave Zerus to go on a galactic eating spree
    4. Gargantis proximae cry out for salvation, answered by the Zerg


    This is just as you suggest, but I still find the similarities between the two types of overlord, and between the behemoth and gargantis proximae, too fishy to be coincidence.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    The wiki page doesn’t say behemoths are in the game. There are those manta ray creatures from the Nova missions though.

  5. #65

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The manual has several irreconcilable contradictions. In the history section the overlords and "gargantuan, space-faring life forms" are clearly separate entities. In the units section they are conflated and called "space-faring behemoths."

    The games and expanded universe get worse. "The Warp" cinematic, "Shadow of the Xel'naga" and the Galaxy Editor apparently split the overlords and behemoth/leviathan/bio-ship/whatever into different entities. "Just an Overlord" gives the overlords an inverted backstory where they summoned the Zerg rather than the other way around.

    Taking these sources at face value, we get the following series of events:
    1. "overlords" (core genus: unknown) assimilated on Zerus, used as control nexuses and transport
    2. "gargantuan, space-faring life forms" (core genus: behemoth?) lured by beacon, assimilated
    3. Zerg leave Zerus to go on a galactic eating spree
    4. Gargantis proximae cry out for salvation, answered by the Zerg


    This is just as you suggest, but I still find the similarities between the two types of overlord, and between the behemoth and gargantis proximae, too fishy to be coincidence.
    source and quote for number 1 in list ?

  6. #66

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The manual has several irreconcilable contradictions. In the history section the overlords and "gargantuan, space-faring life forms" are clearly separate entities. In the units section they are conflated and called "space-faring behemoths."

    The games and expanded universe get worse. "The Warp" cinematic, "Shadow of the Xel'naga" and the Galaxy Editor apparently split the overlords and behemoth/leviathan/bio-ship/whatever into different entities. "Just an Overlord" gives the overlords an inverted backstory where they summoned the Zerg rather than the other way around.

    Taking these sources at face value, we get the following series of events:
    1. "overlords" (core genus: unknown) assimilated on Zerus, used as control nexuses and transport
    2. "gargantuan, space-faring life forms" (core genus: behemoth?) lured by beacon, assimilated
    3. Zerg leave Zerus to go on a galactic eating spree
    4. Gargantis proximae cry out for salvation, answered by the Zerg


    This is just as you suggest, but I still find the similarities between the two types of overlord, and between the behemoth and gargantis proximae, too fishy to be coincidence.
    Not quite. The contradiction can be reconciled by regarding the history section as "earlier" history whilst the unit section of the Overlord description can be regarded as "later" history. Overlords, in general, have always had the responsibility of transporting units and directing them in battle, but it isn't clear whether the Overlords described in the history section actually came from Gargantis Proximae since the unit description of the Overlord states that the reason the Gargantis were brought into the Swarm was due primarily to their heightened senses, not due to their ability to direct or transport minions (if the Gargantis could even do that to begin with that is). It appears that the primary reason for why the history section Overlords exist is for the directing and transporting of Zerg, so we can assume the core genus of those Overlords had such traits. Also, the Overlords we see in Sc1 have the responsibility of providing control, transporting Zerg and advanced scouting/detecting hidden things with their enhanced senses - which is what the unit section describes but not what the history section describes.

    Whether this ommission in the history section was intended or not is beside the point since the effect of this ommission allows us latitude to reconcile that Overlords and Gargantis can be separate in one instance (as it may have been initially) but also conflated as one in another instance (as it may have been later on). The alternative of taking the unit description of the Overlord origins as the same origins of the Overlords in the history section brings forth the greater irreconcilable contradiction/incongruity in that it already had the means to enter space (because Gargantis are space-faring) but then later on in the history section, the Overmind explicitly and assuredly states that they are so incapable of getting into space that it's actively looking for "something - anything" when it really need not.

    Keep in mind, I'm limiting this perspective to only what we know from the manual (like you would in the first instance when it was the only resource at our disposal back then). As such, the sequence of events would actually be thus:
    1. Core genus: unknown assimilated on Zerus to become "Overlords", used as control nexuses and transport
    2. "gargantuan, space-faring life forms" (core genus: Gargantis Proximae) lured by beacon, assimilated. They become the Overlords we all know from now on
    3. Zerg leave Zerus to go on a galactic eating spree
    Last edited by Turalyon; 10-12-2017 at 03:54 AM.
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  7. #67
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    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Whether this ommission in the history section was intended or not is beside the point since the effect of this ommission allows us latitude to reconcile that Overlords and Gargantis can be separate in one instance (as it may have been initially) but also conflated as one in another instance (as it may have been later on). The alternative of taking the unit description of the Overlord origins as the same origins of the Overlords in the history section brings forth the greater irreconcilable contradiction/incongruity in that it already had the means to enter space (because Gargantis are space-faring) but then later on in the history section, the Overmind explicitly and assuredly states that they are so incapable of getting into space that it's actively looking for "something - anything" when it really need not.
    Maybe the Gargantis hitched rides on behemoths or leviathans rather than traveled under their own power? A group of them were stranded on Zerus, called for help and the Zerg answered.

  8. #68

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The wiki page doesn’t say behemoths are in the game. There are those manta ray creatures from the Nova missions though.
    Those are apparently just the local Kasai Whales, which while they are propably space capable given showing up on multiple planets are non-zerg organisms. They just look a lot like them...


    Is it possible that the Gargantus called to the overmind seeking assimilation when the overmind still did not have the capacity to get off of zerus? And that the psi-broadcasting lured the behemoth creatures to zerus which allowed the overlord to reach the gargantus. Just yet another theory...

  9. #69

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nolanstar View Post

    Is it possible that the Gargantus called to the overmind seeking assimilation when the overmind still did not have the capacity to get off of zerus? And that the psi-broadcasting lured the behemoth creatures to zerus which allowed the overlord to reach the gargantus. Just yet another theory...
    This really makes me wonder where the limits of the Overmind would be according to the SC1 lore. You'd think after assimilating the Xel'Naga it'd already have the capacity to get off Zerus, not wait several hundred years later after all life on Zerus is consumed for it.

    Unless, of course, the Gargantus called to the Overmind before it assimilated the Xel'Naga

  10. #70

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Maybe the Gargantis hitched rides on behemoths or leviathans rather than traveled under their own power?
    Could be, but consider the number of steps you have to spin/fanon in order to justify getting to the point that the Overlords first mentioned in the history section came from Gargantis. Also, even though this solution doesn't technically contradict the term "space-faring" (it's about the act of traveling in space but not how it does so), it confuses the matter when both the history section and the unit section use the term "space-faring" to describe the "gargantuan" life forms and the Gargantis respectively. How is one to know that "space-faring" specifically means being able to travel in space on its own ability for the gargantuan life forms (the supposed Behemoths), yet that it specifically means something different/hitching a ride for the Gargantis? That's a lot of things to just naturally assume the audience to figure out on their own.

    It's simpler to just say that the Overlords first mentioned in the Zerg history did not originate from Gargantis, since that will not conflict what is said in the manual and resolves the apparent plot hole. Sure, it's still somewhat of an additive retcon in the end, but it's a lesser one that doesn't have to contort/reinterpret too much of what was already stated. This is what makes a good retcon (yes, they do exist ).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    A group of them... called for help and the Zerg answered.
    I left this bit out since it's irrelevant to resolving the apparent plot hole that exists within the manual using only the information at hand (and that it being information gained after the fact/ an additive retcon that confounds what we have in the manual even more) but I was curious about the origins of this. Where was this specifically stated again? I don't recall the "Just an Overlord" short story saying that the Gargantis called the Zerg to them.
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