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Thread: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

  1. #71
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    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I left this bit out since it's irrelevant to resolving the apparent plot hole that exists within the manual using only the information at hand (and that it being information gained after the fact/ an additive retcon that confounds what we have in the manual even more) but I was curious about the origins of this. Where was this specifically stated again? I don't recall the "Just an Overlord" short story saying that the Gargantis called the Zerg to them.
    Here's an excerpt from the opening scrawl, with my clarifications in brackets: (Bold text present in original.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Just an Overlord
    The ancient homeworlds, remembered we [G. proximae]. The starving young, remembered we [G. proximae].
    The fear, remembered we [G. proximae].
    To the We [Zerg], called we [G. proximae]. Saved us [G. proximae], the We [Zerg]. Became [overlord], we [G. proximae].
    This is consistent with the overlords being assimilated on Zerus prior to the mysterious space faring creatures. Hence my presumption that the G. proximae hitched rides on space faring creatures by luring them with their telepathy. Maybe the Overmind got the idea to do so from the overlords it assimilated.

  2. #72

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    This is consistent with the overlords being assimilated on Zerus prior to the mysterious space faring creatures. Hence my presumption that the G. proximae hitched rides on space faring creatures by luring them with their telepathy. Maybe the Overmind got the idea to do so from the overlords it assimilated.
    Hmm, I would hesitate to call this definitive proof or a reliable source to hang your presumptions on though. For one, it is retroactive continuity. We don't have the benefit of knowing this at the time when we only had the manual as reference. Two, the perspective of the manual is seemingly from an "ominiscient narrator" whilst the Overlord exerpt is a personal/subjective recollection. We have no reason to doubt the veracity of the information from the manual at the time (until a later retcon proves otherwise - which is what point one is about), whilst the Overlords are giving their potentially skewed interpretation of past events. The "psychic beacon" the Overmind sent out may still have been the initial inciting cause for the Gargantis to know of the existence of the Zerg before they then called to the Zerg themselves (also, the "psychic beacon" need no further explanation of its origin beyond the fact that the Overmind was just reaching out it with its senses). Third, the Overlords words are hardly specific or exact in terms of the when, what and how of things.

    And yeah sure, it can align with your theory but not mutually exclusively to anything else. In fact, it still doesn't resolve the original and apparent plot hole/inconsistency of why the Overmind still didn't have any means to get off Zerus until those space faring gargantuan life-forms appeared when it supposedly had a means already through their early and initial assimilation of space-faring Gargantis (irrespective of its actual functional efficiency/utility). Your theory requires more and more fanon to justify it whilst mine requires comparatively little. It also doesn't clarify why one should expect "space-faring" for the Gargantis/Overlord entry to mean "hitching a ride on actual self-propelled space-faring creatures" whilst one should simultaneously expect it to mean self-propelled space-flight for those gargantuan life-forms described in the history.
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  3. #73
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    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Hmm, I would hesitate to call this definitive proof or a reliable source to hang your presumptions on though. For one, it is retroactive continuity. We don't have the benefit of knowing this at the time when we only had the manual as reference. Two, the perspective of the manual is seemingly from an "ominiscient narrator" whilst the Overlord exerpt is a personal/subjective recollection. We have no reason to doubt the veracity of the information from the manual at the time (until a later retcon proves otherwise - which is what point one is about), whilst the Overlords are giving their potentially skewed interpretation of past events. The "psychic beacon" the Overmind sent out may still have been the initial inciting cause for the Gargantis to know of the existence of the Zerg before they then called to the Zerg themselves (also, the "psychic beacon" need no further explanation of its origin beyond the fact that the Overmind was just reaching out it with its senses). Third, the Overlords words are hardly specific or exact in terms of the when, what and how of things.

    And yeah sure, it can align with your theory but not mutually exclusively to anything else. In fact, it still doesn't resolve the original and apparent plot hole/inconsistency of why the Overmind still didn't have any means to get off Zerus until those space faring gargantuan life-forms appeared when it supposedly had a means already through their early and initial assimilation of space-faring Gargantis (irrespective of its actual functional efficiency/utility). Your theory requires more and more fanon to justify it whilst mine requires comparatively little. It also doesn't clarify why one should expect "space-faring" for the Gargantis/Overlord entry to mean "hitching a ride on actual self-propelled space-faring creatures" whilst one should simultaneously expect it to mean self-propelled space-flight for those gargantuan life-forms described in the history.
    I do not have a compelling reply. This entire argument boils down to semantics. Even so, it is fairly minor and I think we are all being a bit too anal about it.

    Even if it requires tinkering with semantics, I like the narrative of the doomed innocent Gargantis calling for help, joining the Zerg and becoming instrumental to their subjugation of Zerus and eventually countless other worlds (or at least speeding up their timetable). All the while the overlords are conscious and enjoying their new existence, becoming functionally immortal, retaining their memories and even getting their intelligence enhanced by their new ruler. It makes the Zerg seemingly compassionate while remaining an all-consuming swarm of monsters. It parallels the similar rise to power of the original Zerg insectoids, which were soil-dwelling nematodes or something like that when they were first discovered. Best of all, it is a simple "travel from point A to B" plot.

    This is nowhere near the level of the many, many horrible retcons littering the games, like Ep2 changing the motivation of the Zerg to capturing Kerry rather than all psychics, Ep4+ changing the dark templar from nomads to settlers, the UED coming out of nowhere, Kerry suddenly becoming supposedly hyper-competent whilst actually tricking people into doing whatever they were going to do anyway, or the retcons in SC2 that turned the xel'naga into bargain bin WarCraft titans (complete with Sargeras wannabe) and removed all agency from the Zerg (who became pawns of the villain of the week) and Protoss (who had all their achievements retconned into xel'naga achievements).

  4. #74

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I do not have a compelling reply. This entire argument boils down to semantics. Even so, it is fairly minor and I think we are all being a bit too anal about it.
    The semantics are important in this case though - otherwise we wouldn't be complaining about apparent inconsistency or plot holes in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Even if it requires tinkering with semantics, I like the narrative of the doomed innocent Gargantis calling for help, joining the Zerg and becoming instrumental to their subjugation of Zerus and eventually countless other worlds (or at least speeding up their timetable).
    The only tinkering of semantics I need for this to fit my explanation of the "space-faring Gargantis" plot hole is to remove the "becoming instrumental to their subjugation of Zerus" part, otherwise, I don't mind this particular narrative either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    like Ep2 changing the motivation of the Zerg to capturing Kerry rather than all psychics
    I don't really see the problem here since Kerrigan is a psychic and the Zerg captured a psychic as per their motivation. While the question of why it took this long to capture a psychic and why it seems to be only Kerrigan being the only viable candidate is not elaborated remains, one can only assume that up until it found Kerrigan, it must have been difficult for the Overmind to do so. Were it not, it would've found and done something about them sooner (like creating that psychic army you're so keen on). The short story The Education of PHC Shane seems to suggest that even creating mindless infested Terrans requires some acceptance of the host to the infestation process. One can only imagine then how difficult it would be to try and preserve the mind of a psychic (since it would be tied to its powers one would think) and infest it so that it retains it intelligence, does the bidding of the Overmind and doesn't just break under the stress.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Ep4+ changing the dark templar from nomads to settlers, the UED coming out of nowhere, Kerry suddenly becoming supposedly hyper-competent whilst actually tricking people into doing whatever they were going to do anyway, or the retcons in SC2 that turned the xel'naga into bargain bin WarCraft titans (complete with Sargeras wannabe) and removed all agency from the Zerg (who became pawns of the villain of the week) and Protoss (who had all their achievements retconned into xel'naga achievements).
    I am in agreement with all this though... The "Kerry hyper-competence" is compounded by some of the idiocy displayed by other characters too (Aldaris and Mengsk in particular). Oh oh, and don't forget the OPness of Kerrigan with her somehow mind-controlling a freakin' Dark Templar Matriarch and the general OPness of Zerg, who are so apparently mindless and weak without an Overmind (immature one or not) that they are close to defeating the Dark Templar on their home planet unless some magic crystals and temple are needed to get rid of them.
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  5. #75

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I am in agreement with all this though... The "Kerry hyper-competence" is compounded by some of the idiocy displayed by other characters too (Aldaris and Mengsk in particular). Oh oh, and don't forget the OPness of Kerrigan with her somehow mind-controlling a freakin' Dark Templar Matriarch and the general OPness of Zerg, who are so apparently mindless and weak without an Overmind (immature one or not) that they are close to defeating the Dark Templar on their home planet unless some magic crystals and temple are needed to get rid of them.
    Tell me something Tura, with the whole psionic abilities decreasing with age and everything (something they said with Mohandar in SC2), do you think this could have happened with Raszagal? Or do you believe this was only a concept they made for SC2's sake?

  6. #76

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Tell me something Tura, with the whole psionic abilities decreasing with age and everything (something they said with Mohandar in SC2), do you think this could have happened with Raszagal? Or do you believe this was only a concept they made for SC2's sake?
    I'm sure the Watsonian/in-universe "reason" is what you say it is but it's never really made apparent in the game that you can infer it from the presented narrative. Even with the character description in the BW manual giving a possible reason for it, it's still pretty much an open plot hole. As such, one is left to conclude that the "reason" for it is that it's an obvious Doylist/out-of-universe one - a conceit to wring drama out of the narrative. Not that that is inherently "bad" mind you. It gave us a pathos enriched scene and development for Zeratul and it elevates the threat and power of the protagonist character, Kerrigan but it comes at the expense of it feeling like it's manufactured and/or potentially breaking immersion since you can see the writer "pulling the strings". Incidentally, I think that once we get past the subjective hate/bias that some have over the Kerrigan character, this is the underlying core of what the "Kerrigan is a Mary-sue in BW" position is about.
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  7. #77

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I'm sure the Watsonian/in-universe "reason" is what you say it is but it's never really made apparent in the game that you can infer it from the presented narrative. Even with the character description in the BW manual giving a possible reason for it, it's still pretty much an open plot hole. As such, one is left to conclude that the "reason" for it is that it's an obvious Doylist/out-of-universe one - a conceit to wring drama out of the narrative. Not that that is inherently "bad" mind you. It gave us a pathos enriched scene and development for Zeratul and it elevates the threat and power of the protagonist character, Kerrigan but it comes at the expense of it feeling like it's manufactured and/or potentially breaking immersion since you can see the writer "pulling the strings". Incidentally, I think that once we get past the subjective hate/bias that some have over the Kerrigan character, this is the underlying core of what the "Kerrigan is a Mary-sue in BW" position is about.
    I never saw that as Mary Sue if the psionic decay concept was true. Plus if that WAS the case she might as well have just used that on the rest of the Protoss people after HotS to ensure they don't go after her. Granted you can argue that due to the LotV writing, they kind of did just that anyway....

  8. #78

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    I only just realised how off-topic my rants are going after I was done writing this reply. Oh well, feel free to ignore the following...

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    I never saw that as Mary Sue if the psionic decay concept was true.
    That's because it's not a direct connection. The claims of "Kerrigan being a Mary-Sue" are about how the narrative is favoured to that particular character. Everything they do or not do ends up benefiting that character regardless. This is bad because it exposes the writers involvement in the work and breaks immersion because instead of allowing us to view the fictional universe in Watsonian way (in that what happened had verisimilitude/ is natural/reasonable in that universe), it forces us to view it in a Doylist way (in that it seems like a conceit/gimmick written in specifically due to some authorial intent).

    The most egregious example of this for Kerrigan is the mind control of Raszagal. There is no context for it being even possible within the game itself (Protoss, psionic creatures with no peer, can be mind-controlled?!) and is an immensely OP ability that has certain implications. If Raszagal was the most powerful Dark Templar but was only mind-controllable by Kerrigan because she was older and weaker than when she was in her prime, that would mean her powers should be at the level of an average Dark Templar, right? She can't be weaker than an average Dark Templar because she wouldn't make for a good leader without powers would she? But yet we don't see Kerrigan just outright mind-controlling Zeratul or any other Dark Templar, do we?

    As such, the "mind control of Raszagal " seems to be there solely as plot device/conceit in order to move the story in a particular way. Whilst this "particular way" is simply just to a) give/allow pathos to Zeratul (which was admittedly quite affecting) and b) to allow the Zerg (whom Kerrigan is designated as the representative of) to be the victors in their own campaign, people like to think (for one reason or another) that this "particular way" is about inflating Kerrigan's importance (ie the Mary-Sue accusations). Whilst that "Mary-Sue" position does have merit on its own when regarding BW in isolation, it has only really gained more strength over the years due in part to how Sc2 turned out (the focus on protagonist centred morality didn't help).

    Sc1 was better in this regard because although it does follow specific characters and has conceits to move the narrative along the characters don't seem to be overly favoured or lead a charmed life. Sure, the apparent "deaths" of Kerrigan in Rebel Yell and Fenix in The Fall can be seen as being purposefully manipulative by the authors because they turn out to not actually die but ultimately, both of these characters aren't overtly crucial to the plot progression. The narrative doesn't hinge or turn on a dime because those resurrected characters aren't really doing major important plot-related things. That last point is crucial in understanding why Kerrigan is ignored at the end of the Overmind campaign.

    Whilst infested Kerrigan is seemingly important in the Overmind campaign due to the majority of its focus on her and that apparently the setup is about finding, exploiting and using psionics to help fight the Protoss, her exclusion in the last few missions suggests that she's not really as important one would think she is because it's ultimately all about the namesake of the campaign, the Overmind. Kerrigan was just a vanity project for the Overmind in order to highlight its weakness of hubris. And, carrying on the sentiment that no single character is that important in Sc1, the Overmind is eventually killed despite how important it felt it was. It's great because it totally upends the whole setup of the Overmind in that it initially thinks it needs this determinant to win against the Protoss but it was ultimately proved wrong on two counts: 1) While it did get its determinant in Kerrigan, the Overmind became so overconfident that it had already won that it had unwittingly overextended itself and 2) the "determinant" isn't really that special and effective as the Overmind believed it was since Kerrigan failed, despite her fervor and capability, in her task to stop the Protoss that would eventually end up killing the Overmind.
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  9. #79

    Default Re: How you suppose the breeds of the extended Zerg swarms are composed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The most egregious example of this for Kerrigan is the mind control of Raszagal. There is no context for it being even possible within the game itself (Protoss, psionic creatures with no peer, can be mind-controlled?!) and is an immensely OP ability that has certain implications. If Raszagal was the most powerful Dark Templar but was only mind-controllable by Kerrigan because she was older and weaker than when she was in her prime, that would mean her powers should be at the level of an average Dark Templar, right? She can't be weaker than an average Dark Templar because she wouldn't make for a good leader without powers would she? But yet we don't see Kerrigan just outright mind-controlling Zeratul or any other Dark Templar, do we?
    I'll give you that one. Personally my reaction when I got to that point was that while it explained Raszagal's behavior in "Countdown," it was starting to get a little out of hand because you can't just pull abilities out of nowhere with no explanations at all other than "because you underestimated my power." Being mind controlled is nothing new given the Dark Archon ability, but for Kerrigan to have it seemed irrational. Plus if she did have it she would have used it more in WoL, HotS, and LotV anyway. In that regard I agreed there was supposed to be a limit to where her power could go, and Blizzard failed to understand that.

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