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Thread: StarCraft & Atmosphere

  1. #101

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    SCI and the manual never actually touched on whether or not the Zerg could assimilate the protoss. The Overmind needed the terran psychic capacity in order to fight the protoss on even footing. After the Overmind gained its foothold on Aiur, it seemed absolutely intent on infesting the protoss without any hints of resistance -- from the khala or otherwise. The Khala and Void serving as barriers to infestation was lore developed later on.
    That lore developed later on was to explain why initial infestation didn't work, hence why the Overmind needed the Khaydarin crystals. Remember, for all the killing on Aiur, the Overmind was still at work on the crystals. This was somewhat explained about at the beginning of Full Circle.

  2. #102

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Limitation? The Overmind enabled the Zerg to become a galactic horde of locusts. Without that unity, they will only ever stagnate, degenerate, or become funny looking humans.
    Reading mis-comprehension on your part. I said "limitation of not having the Overmind" not "limitation of having the Overmind".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The SC1 manual foreshadowed that the Zerg were going to create legions of psychic infested Terrans. That sounds loads more interesting to me.
    And yet none of this was even addressed in Episode II except only on an oblique level with the inclusion of Kerrigan.... and then she's forgotten about at the end of the Overmind campaign. So much for the Overmind wanting (or needing for that matter) to "create legions of psychic Terrans"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Maybe the Brood War could have been an actual Brood War where the Broods fight each other for supremacy. Without the Overmind to give a constructive direction, they end up being far more dangerous to the Terrans and Protoss.
    Agree with the former but not the latter. The Zerg in BW seem to be just as powerful without the Overmind than they were with the Overmind in Sc1, if not more when it really shouldn't! In BW, the death of the Overmind had no real negligible effect since the supposed "feral" Zerg were still powerful enough to invade and almost defeat the Protoss on Shakuras (you know, the homeland for the only threat that troubled the Zerg in Sc1), when it really should have hindered them. Even the most powerful fighting force at the time, the UED, had to struggle to even get close the baby Overmind and only got that chance because of a plot device to weaken the Zerg (when they really shouldn't need further weakening with the Overmind being dead/immature). In a way, it kind of devalues Tassadar's sacrifice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    SCI and the manual never actually touched on whether or not the Zerg could assimilate the protoss.
    I don't even know why this was even something to be doubted in the first place. The whole premise about the Zerg and the Overmind is its goal of finding the Protoss and assimilating them so there's a tacit understading/implication that this was always possible. If they weren't actually able to do it from the get go, that's something that should've been made clear from the start. To say that because we didn't see the Zerg assimilate the Protoss in the game is proof that the Zerg never could assimilate Protoss is horrendously fallacious (argument from ignorance).

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    The Overmind needed the terran psychic capacity in order to fight the protoss on even footing.
    The Overmind's successful invasion of Aiur - without Kerrigan mind you - seems to disagree with this assessment.
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  3. #103

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Tura, I was directly referring to the Zerg section of the manual The Determinant, which speaks to the Overmind's worries over fighting the protoss. This goes in hand with Misalgnissa's point that a lot of the content on the manual was excluded from the game.

  4. #104

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The Overmind's successful invasion of Aiur - without Kerrigan mind you - seems to disagree with this assessment.
    Tell me something Tura: after getting Kerrigan into the swarm, what exactly did the Overmind make use of regarding her psionic abilities to the rest of the zerg?

  5. #105

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Tura, I was directly referring to the Zerg section of the manual The Determinant, which speaks to the Overmind's worries over fighting the protoss. This goes in hand with Misalgnissa's point that a lot of the content on the manual was excluded from the game.
    So what about this? When Episode II starts, the Overmind has already found the very thing to stop its anxiety about fighting the Protoss. Sure, it could've been more overt and expository to show in the game that the Overmind was worried before the start of Episode II but it's hardly necessary (since that's what the manual is there for and had already detailed). The reveal later in the campaign that it actually had the psionically gifted Kerrigan in its possession fills in the gaps and connects to the background detailed in the manual. So, the reason why the Overmind was never worried from the start of Episode II and is supremely confident throughout the campaign was because it thought it had already won having in its possession at last, its "determinant" (albeit in Chrysalis form).

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    Tell me something Tura: after getting Kerrigan into the swarm, what exactly did the Overmind make use of regarding her psionic abilities to the rest of the zerg?
    It used her to fight the most dangerous Protoss it had met since it's arrival in the K sector.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  6. #106

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It used her to fight the most dangerous Protoss it had met since it's arrival in the K sector.
    You know I'm still unsure if the Overmind actually saw the Nerazim as the most dangerous Protoss. Yes they can permanently kill Cerebrates, but I felt it would have thought they're still relatively few in number and therefore isn't THAT big of a threat.

    Of course, it depends on the degree of arrogance it had.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    You're acting like the Overmind ALONE was what kept the swarm from doing it. Even by the time of BW it was clear the Cerebrates could keep much of the swarm from going feral.
    Every cerebrate is basically a miniature version of the Overmind, so it isn't surprisingly they share capabilities in common. The Overmind, however, served a vital regulating role by preventing them from fighting a brood war against one another like the xel'naga feared they might do. The actual BW expansion forgot this and trivialized the demise of the Overmind and Tassadar's sacrifice. Even reclaiming feral zerg is actually a retcon, as there was no indication in SC1 that this was possible (at least not without replicating the drug- and tech-based enslavement practiced by Terrans).

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    But the virus wasn't compatible with most terrans, hence why all the mindless drones.
    This is a retcon. We didn't see more intelligent infested Terrans in the game due to development limitations and because Episode II was seemingly rewritten (and hastily so) to include QoB. It's unbelievable that QoB is the most powerful human psychic ever, more powerful than Protoss, uniquely compatible with infestation, present on Tarsonis when the Zerg invaded, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    SCI and the manual never actually touched on whether or not the Zerg could assimilate the protoss. The Overmind needed the terran psychic capacity in order to fight the protoss on even footing. After the Overmind gained its foothold on Aiur, it seemed absolutely intent on infesting the protoss without any hints of resistance -- from the khala or otherwise. The Khala and Void serving as barriers to infestation was lore developed later on.
    The Zerg were infesting Terran worlds for over a decade before the Great War started. This suggests that infesting and assimilating species may take a fair amount of time based on their physiology. If it took over a decade for the Zerg to infest and assimilate Terrans, then it stands to reason infesting and assimilating the Protoss would take even longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    That lore developed later on was to explain why initial infestation didn't work, hence why the Overmind needed the Khaydarin crystals. Remember, for all the killing on Aiur, the Overmind was still at work on the crystals. This was somewhat explained about at the beginning of Full Circle.
    The Overmind stated that the Protoss don't fully understand the applications of the crystals. Which makes sense, because the Zerg ate the xel'naga who created the crystals. What doesn't make sense is that the Zerg were not already churning out Khaydarin crystals for the war effort. The Zerg briefing screen does show a giant purple crystal surrounded by human skeletons, which seemingly plays a role in their communication, but the significance of this is never explained.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Agree with the former but not the latter. The Zerg in BW seem to be just as powerful without the Overmind than they were with the Overmind in Sc1, if not more when it really shouldn't! In BW, the death of the Overmind had no real negligible effect since the supposed "feral" Zerg were still powerful enough to invade and almost defeat the Protoss on Shakuras (you know, the homeland for the only threat that troubled the Zerg in Sc1), when it really should have hindered them. Even the most powerful fighting force at the time, the UED, had to struggle to even get close the baby Overmind and only got that chance because of a plot device to weaken the Zerg (when they really shouldn't need further weakening with the Overmind being dead/immature). In a way, it kind of devalues Tassadar's sacrifice.
    That's what I've been saying. These are some of my many complaints about how the story was handled. There are inconsistencies which are never explained, previous plot points are dropped or contradicted, new antagonists appear out of left field, etc.

  8. #108

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The Overmind stated that the Protoss don't fully understand the applications of the crystals. Which makes sense, because the Zerg ate the xel'naga who created the crystals. What doesn't make sense is that the Zerg were not already churning out Khaydarin crystals for the war effort. The Zerg briefing screen does show a giant purple crystal surrounded by human skeletons, which seemingly plays a role in their communication, but the significance of this is never explained.
    Actually in the SC1 lore it was heavily implied, but never actually STATED, the Xel'Naga created the crystals. The Overmind did understand more, but it seemed like it needed to harness their power to assimilate the Protoss, which would merely be a way to get around the Khala.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    This is a retcon. We didn't see more intelligent infested Terrans in the game due to development limitations and because Episode II was seemingly rewritten (and hastily so) to include QoB. It's unbelievable that QoB is the most powerful human psychic ever, more powerful than Protoss, uniquely compatible with infestation, present on Tarsonis when the Zerg invaded, etc.
    Then how would you explain why all the other infested terrans only turned out mindless drones? (If you were to use a lore reasoning)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Every cerebrate is basically a miniature version of the Overmind, so it isn't surprisingly they share capabilities in common. The Overmind, however, served a vital regulating role by preventing them from fighting a brood war against one another like the xel'naga feared they might do. The actual BW expansion forgot this and trivialized the demise of the Overmind and Tassadar's sacrifice. Even reclaiming feral zerg is actually a retcon, as there was no indication in SC1 that this was possible (at least not without replicating the drug- and tech-based enslavement practiced by Terrans).
    You think after Zasz's brood went feral the only way to deal with it is to destroy it completely?

    BW didn't forget the infighting as you claimed. The whole point of the swarm's function in the BW was because Kerrigan controlled half, and Daggoth's forces controlled the other half and neither wanted to share. Hell the whole point of Kaloth infesting Stukov probably reflected this too, because the Cerebrates wanted a way to deal with Kerrigan

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That's what I've been saying. These are some of my many complaints about how the story was handled. There are inconsistencies which are never explained, previous plot points are dropped or contradicted, new antagonists appear out of left field, etc.
    This is the whole point of why people wanted a better ending when they began writing the storyline for SC2. BW's ending made it seem like everyone's sacrifice had been for nothing. And Duran's plans merely suffered a temporary setback due to the loss of the swarm to Kerrigan, and he simply went around that by using terran tech to breed the hybrid instead.

  9. #109

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    You know I'm still unsure if the Overmind actually saw the Nerazim as the most dangerous Protoss. Yes they can permanently kill Cerebrates, but I felt it would have thought they're still relatively few in number and therefore isn't THAT big of a threat.
    That they are few in number but possess a power and capability not even legions of Protoss warriors and war machines could achieve would be more than enough to give the Overmind pause (which it did).

    Also, it did assign it's most powerful agent to combat them rather than bringing her to the invasion of Aiur and it would rather rush head long onto the homeworld of the Protoss rather than stay put on Char until the Dark Templar were done with. Take that as you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That's what I've been saying. These are some of my many complaints about how the story was handled. There are inconsistencies which are never explained, previous plot points are dropped or contradicted, new antagonists appear out of left field, etc.
    Oh. I mistook what you said, "Without the Overmind to give a constructive direction, they end up being far more dangerous to the Terrans and Protoss", as being something you agreed with.
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  10. #110
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    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    One thing I always had as part of my headcanon was that the Overmind was using the Khaydarin Crystals to "hack" into the Khala and influence the Conclave. Would explain some of their completely bone-headed tactical moves during the war.
    Post SC2 it makes even more sense to me as it would seem that the Khaydarin Crystals act as a form of backdoor into the Khala that allowed Amon easy access. If the Overmind has succeeded in implanting itself into the Khala with Amon steering its moves he would have likely created the Hybrid Form he desired right then and there and proceeded to destroy the universe with Hybrid, Zerg, and Protoss under his control.

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