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Thread: StarCraft & Atmosphere

  1. #91

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That's a retcon which renders the entire backstory of the Zerg nonsensical and makes them really boring compared to their awesome SC1 manual backstory.

    I'm an old school Zerg fan. The Overmind and his Cerebrates rule, while Zagara, Abathur, Stukov and all the rest gleefully obey.
    The hivemind existed in the SC1 lore. Besides I take what was given from the SC2 lore and go from there, instead of just ignoring the whole thing

  2. #92

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    That's a retcon which renders the entire backstory of the Zerg nonsensical and makes them really boring compared to their awesome SC1 manual backstory.
    Playing devil's advocate, but how has it changed the zerg fundamentally? In the original lore, the Xel'Naga forged the Overmind to circumvent warring egos and bring them to heel. How is it changed to know that Amon, specifically, spearheaded that particular aspect of the zerg?

    I think the whole thing with Blizzard eliminating the Cerebrates is really dumb, too. Instead of cerebrates invoking the Tyranid Hivemind, now we have Queens mirroring Tyrand Norn Queens. It's fixed nothing, really.





    Nope. No similarities. At all.
    Last edited by Visions of Khas; 07-31-2017 at 01:04 PM.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  3. #93
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    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    The hivemind existed in the SC1 lore. Besides I take what was given from the SC2 lore and go from there, instead of just ignoring the whole thing
    I have no problem taking stuff from SC2 lore that doesn't contradict SC1 lore. However, I have a beef with the writing going back to SC1. Episode II is nowhere near as interesting or well plotted as Episodes I or III, which makes sense when you learn that the writers decide to revive Kerrigan and rewrote the Zerg campaign around her. By the time BW rolls around the writers are clearly making it up as they go along.

    As it stands, StarCraft simply doesn't have a solid story because the alien side is horribly mishandled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Playing devil's advocate, but how has it changed the zerg fundamentally? In the original lore, the Xel'Naga forged the Overmind to circumvent warring egos and bring them to heel. How is it changed to know that Amon, specifically, spearheaded that particular aspect of the zerg?
    SC2 retconned the entire backstory, not just that part. SC2 rewrote the series from military scifi to space fantasy romance.

    In SC1, the zerg were parasites who the xel'naga made slight modifications to to increase their survival and prevent internal strife. The Zerg flourished beyond expectations and developed capabilities the xel'naga never predicted, like infestation and assimilation. Ultimately the Zerg devoured their creators, gained their knowledge, and went on a galactic eating spree in search of a weapon against the Protoss who they would inevitably face. The Zerg elevated the previously arbitrary/subjective concepts of "purity of form" and "purity of essence" to religious importance and believed that by assimilating the Protoss' purity of form (which the xel'naga explicitly believed sullied and discarded in favor of purity of essence, because it was all a vanity project) they would become perfect.

    In SC2, the zerg were reptile bug things which ate each other to acquire space magic which makes them randomly mutate and become stronger. Amon created the Overmind and enslaved the Zerg, then took them from Zerus and sent them on a mission to destroy the Protoss. Amon was an idiot who the Overmind didn't like for enslaving it, so the Overmind used its god-like ability to predict the future in order to mastermind Amon's embarrassing death through a variety of impossible circumstances and coincidences. The Zerg religion was expanded on and made into the factual creation myth of the universe and part of some space magic cosmic cycle thingy. The xel'naga are actually space gods who reproduce by creating two races to act as eggs and sperm to conceive a new race of xel'naga.

  4. #94

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The treatment of the Zerg has been atrocious. They never had interesting characters in any of their appearances, old school or new school. They lost all of their cultural uniqueness to become Kerrigan's personal weapon of mass destruction. Blizzard attempts to justify this using logic that would not hold up in court if GW tried to use it. The Zerg are about as different from the Tyranids as the new Necrons are from the old Necrons.
    You know, I was never bothered by Kerrigan's usurpation of the Zerg and her using of them to her own ends in BW and that's saying a lot because the Zerg are my favourite (most Zerg fans actually despise Kerrigan's influence). It wasn't wholly without rhyme or reason on a conceptual level because she was billed in Sc1 as the most powerful agent of the Swarm, the Overmind left her with her own spirit/individuality and she had a chip on her shoulder from being controlled all her life up to that point. Now, with the Overmind dead, the original Zerg culture was literally ripped off them then and there already, so it was up for grabs as to which way the Zerg could turn out. It would have been better had we seen the other side of the Zerg more (that is, the remnant Cerebrate point of view) but having Kerrigan control them is definitely an interesting change to the Zerg following the Overmind's death, regardless of whether one deems it a "good" or "bad" change.

    The bigger crime in the treatment of the Zerg is wholly in Sc2. The Overmind stuff in WoL can at least be potentially ignored now because of the retcon in LotV of the retcon in WoL (it was a sham concocted by Ouros) but that fundamental change in the Overmind's origin and nature as exposited off-handedly by the ghost of another thought-to-be-dead character absolutely gutted me at the time. HotS compounds this in even more excruciating detail by not only saying the Overmind was not the Zerg, but the Zerg we know generally are not the real Zerg at all - the Primals are. I thought that I couldn't be more disgusted when they threw the Overmind under the boss and pinned all it's achievements on some non-descript villain, just to lazily and artificially bolster up his cred in WoL, but to undermine the Zerg further and so entirely in HotS by nonchalantly saying they're not really Zerg... I can't even find the words to describe it, but betrayal is close. I'm still deciding whether what the Zerg had to suffer was comparatively worse than what the revelations of the Protoss had to endure during LotV.

    Sc2 should've treated the Zerg better by removing Kerrigan from them entirely and seeing them evolve beyond their limitation of not having the Overmind or being controlled by Kerrigan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Playing devil's advocate, but how has it changed the zerg fundamentally? In the original lore, the Xel'Naga forged the Overmind to circumvent warring egos and bring them to heel. How is it changed to know that Amon, specifically, spearheaded that particular aspect of the zerg?
    Thing is, it isn't just that Amon is revealed to be the Xel'Naga behind the uplifting, it's the retconning of the purpose behind it and the how and why of things that is added on to it. It's because of the idea now that the Overmind was really not the Overmind and by extension, not really representative of what it is to be Zerg. The Overmind/Zerg was just a tool/device (both literally and figuratively) for a bigger villain, not a third race with it's own agenda and stakes. Not only is the Overmind rendered into an unreliable narrator, the omniscient view of the history in the manual is also rendered into being an unreliable narrator. Everything becomes untethered as a result

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I have no problem taking stuff from SC2 lore that doesn't contradict SC1 lore. However, I have a beef with the writing going back to SC1. Episode II is nowhere near as interesting or well plotted as Episodes I or III, which makes sense when you learn that the writers decide to revive Kerrigan and rewrote the Zerg campaign around her. By the time BW rolls around the writers are clearly making it up as they go along.
    They've always been "making it up all along". A technically "good" story is often when it successfully conveys the illusion that it was all fully formed from the get-go.

    It's debatable whether Kerrigan makes Episode II less interesting or poorly plotted because if you look at the missions without Kerrigan, the plotting is indeed more drab and pedestrian. The first missions of Episode II revolve around babysitting a McGuffin and the last missions are completely and can be easily disconnected from what came before since the Overmind's invasion of Aiur doesn't involve Kerrigan (which makes you wonder why two-thirds of the game is dedicated to her rebirth). Really, the inclusion of Kerrigan is what actually kicks the plot momentum of Episode II into gear such that even though Aiur's invasion is predicated on Zeratul being on Char, the presence of Kerrigan as a plot device handily explains why Zeratul is even there in the first place (the psychic call when she was in the chrysalis).
    Last edited by Turalyon; 08-01-2017 at 05:52 AM.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  5. #95
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    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Sc2 should've treated the Zerg better by removing Kerrigan from them entirely and seeing them evolve beyond their limitation of not having the Overmind or being controlled by Kerrigan.
    Limitation? The Overmind enabled the Zerg to become a galactic horde of locusts. Without that unity, they will only ever stagnate, degenerate, or become funny looking humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It's debatable whether Kerrigan makes Episode II less interesting or poorly plotted because if you look at the missions without Kerrigan, the plotting is indeed more drab and pedestrian.
    The SC1 manual foreshadowed that the Zerg were going to create legions of psychic infested Terrans. That sounds loads more interesting to me.

  6. #96

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I have no problem taking stuff from SC2 lore that doesn't contradict SC1 lore. However, I have a beef with the writing going back to SC1. Episode II is nowhere near as interesting or well plotted as Episodes I or III, which makes sense when you learn that the writers decide to revive Kerrigan and rewrote the Zerg campaign around her. By the time BW rolls around the writers are clearly making it up as they go along.
    That was more because with the Overmind gone and the new one too young to do anything, they didn't want the zerg to sit around and just wait until the new one matures. Kerrigan was right about that point when she told Artanis and Zeratul of the new Overmind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    SC2 retconned the entire backstory, not just that part. SC2 rewrote the series from military scifi to space fantasy romance.
    Overemphasized, that was the main problem. No one would have had any problems with their relationship in the 1st game because it wasn't the main point. All Blizzard had to do was continue that path

  7. #97

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Limitation? The Overmind enabled the Zerg to become a galactic horde of locusts. Without that unity, they will only ever stagnate, degenerate, or become funny looking humans.
    You're acting like the Overmind ALONE was what kept the swarm from doing it. Even by the time of BW it was clear the Cerebrates could keep much of the swarm from going feral. It proved that you never really needed the Overmind to prevent such things, SC2 merely capitalized on that and introduced the hybrids for such control. Besides, as early as the Dark Origin mission people had speculated that the hybrid Duran showed Zeratul could be able to control the swarm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The SC1 manual foreshadowed that the Zerg were going to create legions of psychic infested Terrans. That sounds loads more interesting to me.
    In many ways I felt the same. The whole point why the Overmind turned to humanity was because the Khala prevented infestation, so the swarm had to find another species in order to get psionic abilities. But the virus wasn't compatible with most terrans, hence why all the mindless drones.

  8. #98
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    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    That was more because with the Overmind gone and the new one too young to do anything, they didn't want the zerg to sit around and just wait until the new one matures. Kerrigan was right about that point when she told Artanis and Zeratul of the new Overmind.
    My point exactly. Maybe the Brood War could have been an actual Brood War where the Broods fight each other for supremacy. Without the Overmind to give a constructive direction, they end up being far more dangerous to the Terrans and Protoss.

  9. #99

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    My point exactly. Maybe the Brood War could have been an actual Brood War where the Broods fight each other for supremacy. Without the Overmind to give a constructive direction, they end up being far more dangerous to the Terrans and Protoss.
    In some ways they did try to implement this in HotS. I didn't mind the whole revenge matter against Mengsk, I just felt that shouldn't have been the whole point of the campaign. If nothing else they should have explained more on the primal zerg at Zerus, as well as the prophecy at Skygeirr. I felt Phantoms of the Void mission alone wasn't enough

  10. #100

    Default Re: StarCraft & Atmosphere

    The whole point why the Overmind turned to humanity was because the Khala prevented infestation, so the swarm had to find another species in order to get psionic abilities.
    SCI and the manual never actually touched on whether or not the Zerg could assimilate the protoss. The Overmind needed the terran psychic capacity in order to fight the protoss on even footing. After the Overmind gained its foothold on Aiur, it seemed absolutely intent on infesting the protoss without any hints of resistance -- from the khala or otherwise. The Khala and Void serving as barriers to infestation was lore developed later on.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

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