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Thread: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

  1. #61

    Default Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    There's no problem.
    The "problem" (a word I wish to use lightly since "point of contention" is probably more accurate) I'm referrring to is in regards to the reason to why the Zerg are attracted to psionics, as established in Sc1, is being ignored in BW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The psi emitters are needed to cancel out the effects of the psi disruptor, which are preventing her from doing so. They're two devices with opposite yet simple functions: one enhances zerg signals, the other weakens them.
    Thanks for establishing that the retcon occurs in BW. The Psi-Emitters in Sc1 do not enhance Zerg signals, they enhance a Ghost's psionic emanations and that's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Where does BW say that?
    It doesn't but I'm trying to make you see that that's the basis of your argument. You're the one saying that Zerg have no reason to be attracted to psionics beyond just merely being attracted to them innately and using the info provided by the later entry that is BW to support that notion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Kerrigan is channeling hive-mind orders through the emitter to lure zerg away from the psi disruptor's signal.
    "Where does BW say that?" I can do that, too!

    Sure, you can say that that's implied from what we have but what makes this implication stronger than the first "implied" (which I would refute and say established) notion that the Zerg were only attracted to psionics because of the Overmind? All you've established is that BW provided an additive retcon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    If "the actual reason behind the Zerg attraction to psionics" is "they're looking for a terran psychic" that's actually a whole new host of problems considering they've stopped doing that last game and the character that instigated this motivation is dead.
    Exactly! That's why I initially used the word "problem" to describe it when BW just suddenly shows the Zerg are still attracted for no apparent reason when the already established reason is now gone. One has to fanon that Zerg were just innately attracted to psionics to begin with to justify it and there's a logical fallacy there in having to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    How is this supposed to work exactly anyway? The baby Overmind is sending out orders to hunt for terran psychics when it's not even grown and has much bigger problems like the disruptor, or the UED pacifying it with drugs? Wouldn't its mental bandwidth be better spent on uniting the swarms, retaking control of Kerrigan, or otherwise securing its position? If you're saying the orders to hunt for human psychics is a vestigial genetic memory from the old Overmind, wouldn't that be highly inefficient to have the swarm led by a character that's not even conscious? Isn't this contradicted by the fact that Daggoth is taking temporary control of the swarm in the baby Overmind's stead? Why would Daggoth care about finding more psychic humans? He has bigger problems and can't control the one psychic human that's already in the swarm.
    The precise details of how this conceit works, whilst interesting to speculate on, are moot. It's all plot-devicey in the end. It will suffice that the concept of a neo-Overmind has no precedent (like I said in an earlier post, it's weakened state could easily explain why the Zerg are not attracted to the Psi-emitters in the same way as they did in Sc1) such that it provides an "out" that keeps it consistent with what came before in Sc1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    ...or it's due to the psi disruptor. Much simple explanation and in fact the whole point of the plot device.
    It's never really established that the Psi-disruptor is the reason why the Psi emitter is not as effective as before. One can only imply. But then we're now comparing one implied thing with another. Given that both the neo-Overmind and the Psi Disruptor are both plot devices that come out in BW, it's difficult to prioritise which of these is the greater implied effect in the change to the Zerg attraction to psionics. I'm of the mind of using what was established previously, which the neo-Overmind hearkens back to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The out is the same as in SC1, that "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts".
    No, it's not. There is a reason the Zerg are "attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts", a reason that is somewhat denied starting from BW and now apparently completely denied (although it remains to be seen since it's not finished, so I can concede this) in Covert Ops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    So now I have to buy into every random hypothesis that someone presents even though there are simpler explanations, or else I'm being hypocritical in not wanting jarring 180-degree retcons? Come on... I don't think that's how it works. :P
    But... that's what you're seemingly doing. You're buying into the random hypothesis that the Zerg have no inherent reason for being attracted to psionics (because they just are/do) because a later entry suggests this is so but not buying into the random hypothesis that the Overmind may not have been metaphysically free because a later entry suggests this is so.
    Last edited by Turalyon; 05-07-2016 at 12:48 AM.
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  2. #62
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    Default Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The "problem" (a word I wish to use lightly since "point of contention" is probably more accurate) I'm referrring to is in regards to the reason to why the Zerg are attracted to psionics, as established in Sc1, is being ignored in BW.

    Thanks for establishing that the retcon occurs in BW. The Psi-Emitters in Sc1 do not enhance Zerg signals, they enhance a Ghost's psionic emanations and that's all.
    Same exact thing. If zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts, it's a zerg signal. Their function is in the name: transplanar psionic waveform emitter. The terrans don't have an Infested Kerrigan to channel a psionic signal, so what's the retcon again?

    It doesn't but I'm trying to make you see that that's the basis of your argument. You're the one saying that Zerg have no reason to be attracted to psionics beyond just merely being attracted to them innately and using the info provided by the later entry that is BW to support that notion.
    So where's the retcon/problem?

    Exactly! That's why I initially used the word "problem" to describe it when BW just suddenly shows the Zerg are still attracted for no apparent reason when the already established reason is now gone. One has to fanon that Zerg were just innately attracted to psionics to begin with to justify it and there's a logical fallacy there in having to do that.
    Again, all we know for a fact is that "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" and psi emitters reach across worlds. That's the only thing SC1 says on the subject.

    So now pure facts from the game are "fanon", but the hypothesis that it's actually the Overmind ordering zerg to hunt down psionic humans is somehow a legit theory, even though he's dead in BW yet the psi emitters work anyway. How?

    The precise details of how this conceit works, whilst interesting to speculate on, are moot. It's all plot-devicey in the end. It will suffice that the concept of a neo-Overmind has no precedent (like I said in an earlier post, it's weakened state could easily explain why the Zerg are not attracted to the Psi-emitters in the same way as they did in Sc1) such that it provides an "out" that keeps it consistent with what came before in Sc1.
    If you're going to nitpick psi emitters' ability to broadcast zerg-attracting signals, I think it's only fair that an explanation be given for how a dead character's defunct motives still manage to influence zerg, as that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    It's never really established that the Psi-disruptor is the reason why the Psi emitter is not as effective as before. One can only imply. But then we're now comparing one implied thing with another. Given that both the neo-Overmind and the Psi Disruptor are both plot devices that come out in BW, it's difficult to prioritise which of these is the greater implied effect in the change to the Zerg attraction to psionics. I'm of the mind of using what was established previously, which the neo-Overmind hearkens back to.
    The psi emitters are what Kerrigan uses to counteract the effects of the disruptor:

    "Remember the Confederate Psi Disrupter that you could never find? Well, the UED found it. And it's preventing me from controlling my minions. With the help of your Psi Emitters, I can gather up enough Zerg to destroy the Disrupter and confront the UED."

    No, it's not. There is a reason the Zerg are "attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts", a reason that is somewhat denied starting from BW and now apparently completely denied (although it remains to be seen since it's not finished, so I can concede this) in Covert Ops.

    But... that's what you're seemingly doing. You're buying into the random hypothesis that the Zerg have no inherent reason for being attracted to psionics (because they just are/do) because a later entry suggests this is so but not buying into the random hypothesis that the Overmind may not have been metaphysically free because a later entry suggests this is so.
    If you could provide evidence that the "later entry" contradicts the earlier entry, this would be a valid argument. But the idea that zerg are only attracted to the psionic emanations of ghosts because the Overmind said so is fanon.

    But... that's what you're seemingly doing. You're buying into the random hypothesis that the Zerg have no inherent reason for being attracted to psionics (because they just are/do) because a later entry suggests this is so but not buying into the random hypothesis that the Overmind may not have been metaphysically free because a later entry suggests this is so.
    False analogy. SC1 never implies/states the Overmind lacked free will, but it did explain how psi emitters work and that explanation is pretty consistent with BW.

    This argument is essentially a cop-out and can be applied to anything. Maybe you should buy into my theory that Raynor is a Xel'Naga. There are implicit cues everywhere, and if we can't take implicit cues as fact now, well, then you shouldn't complain about the Overmind retcon either because the Overmind's metaphysical free will was only implicitly suggested. See how ridiculous that sounds?

  3. #63

    Default Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Same exact thing. If zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts, it's a zerg signal.
    Huh? So you're saying that what is actually nothing more than an amplified Ghost signal, is a "Zerg signal" just because Zerg happen to be attracted to it. Ok.... Guess it makes sense then to call something, say music, that I'm attracted to, a "Turalyon signal"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    So where's the retcon/problem?
    That BW shows Zerg still being attracted to psionic emanations without an explanation when the reason for that attraction no longer exists. The reason you give, "they always were (with or without the Overmind)" has no basis until BW itself supplies you with information in that the game shows the Zerg still being attracted. This is the same exact reasoning for those who excuse the Overmind retcon in WoL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Again, all we know for a fact is that "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" and psi emitters reach across worlds. That's the only thing SC1 says on the subject.
    Yes, but the Terrans don't actually know the "why" of it. We do because we've played the Zerg campaign and read the BG history of the Overmind's motivation to capture a psionic. The Zerg are attracted to the emitters not because they just inherently are, but because it was the motivation of the underlying intelligence that was guiding the Zerg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    So now pure facts from the game are "fanon", but the hypothesis that it's actually the Overmind ordering zerg to hunt down psionic humans is somehow a legit theory, even though he's dead in BW yet the psi emitters work anyway. How?
    The problem here is the fact that the psi emitters are still working in BW, when they shouldn't be! Like the problem being the fact that the Overmind was metaphysically enslaved as revealed in WoL, when it shouldn't have been!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    If you're going to nitpick psi emitters' ability to broadcast zerg-attracting signals
    You're misunderstanding the intent of my position it seems. I'm not questioning why a psionic emitter would or would not work in giving off an amplified Ghost signal, but challenging your self-assumed notion that the Zerg are innately attracted to psionics for NO REASON. What you refer to as "zerg-attracting signals" are merely amplified Ghost signals. That the Zerg are attracted to them is incidental.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The psi emitters are what Kerrigan uses to counteract the effects of the disruptor
    This naturally implies that the psi emitters should not be affected by the Disruptor... unless you're now saying that it's a weak counter, but then that's a further assumption with no basis. That the Psi emitters effectiveness is clearly different from before (it's much weaker) as a result of the disruptors presence requires more "mental gymnastics" to justify (where does one even begin to look?) than the established reason for any attraction at all is because the Overmind was present then in Sc1 and that the attraction is still present but much more limited now in BW because there's an immature neo-Overmind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    If you could provide evidence that the "later entry" contradicts the earlier entry, this would be a valid argument. But the idea that zerg are only attracted to the psionic emanations of ghosts because the Overmind said so is fanon.
    Only if you can provide evidence that the Overmind was metaphysically free in Sc1. One can't, because it's implicit.

    Just as you and I would rail against the Overmind retcon (keep in mind that my use of the term "retcon" does not include acknowledging whether a contradiction exists or not since additive retcon do not contradict and are still termed retcons) in WoL based on the "fanon"/implied cues that the Overmind is metaphysically free, I'm railing against why the Zerg are still being attracted to psionics retcon in Covert Ops (and BW to an extent) based on the "fanon"/implicit cues (found in the manual and then explored in the Zerg campaign) that the Overmind is the reason for such an attraction, who actually happens to be no longer around now. I'm being consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    This argument is essentially a cop-out and can be applied to anything.
    What you're failing to understand is that the reason for why the Zerg are attracted to psionic emanations is because the Zerg/Overmind is looking for them is the first implicit cue and takes precedence, not that the Zerg (with/without the Overmind) are attracted innately to psionic emanations at all times.

    All we know about the Psi-emitters comes solely from the limited perspective of Terrans - who can be wrong and are known to be biased. All that the Terrans really know and observe is that the Zerg are attracted to Ghost psionic emanations. It's a whole other thing to then assume and make the conclusion that why they are attracted to them at all is because they just naturally are in all cases forevermore. Case in point is when Raynor finds caged Zerg in Confedrate holdings in the lab on Antiga and Mengsk then naturally assumes the Zerg were created by the Confeds and bred them as some part of conspiracy to takeover the sector. Mengsk is somewhat right but he's making the wrong conclusion based on his limited perspective. We, the audience, know more and have a wider perspective than he does. Also, in LotV, even Karax corrects the assumptions of the Terrans conclusions about what the Keystone/artifact is capable of in WoL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Maybe you should buy into my theory that Raynor is a Xel'Naga.
    I came up with a similar theory (that humans were really amnesiac, timetravelling future Xel'Naga) way back when to mock the Overmind retcon in WoL setting up a bad precedent for future lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    There are implicit cues everywhere, and if we can't take implicit cues as fact now, well, then you shouldn't complain about the Overmind retcon either because the Overmind's metaphysical free will was only implicitly suggested. See how ridiculous that sounds?
    Ahh, but I would only do this if I adopted your position since I've established that what you deem as "implicit" regarding why the Zerg are attracted to psionics is incorrect.
    Last edited by Turalyon; 05-07-2016 at 08:18 AM.
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  4. #64
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    Default Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Huh? So you're saying that what is actually nothing more than an amplified Ghost signal, is a "Zerg signal" just because Zerg happen to be attracted to it. Ok.... Guess it makes sense then to call something, say music, that I'm attracted to, a "Turalyon signal"?
    Yes, that's essentially what "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" means. The zerg response to ghosts is inherent. No other explanation is needed.

    That BW shows Zerg still being attracted to psionic emanations without an explanation when the reason for that attraction no longer exists. The reason you give, "they always were (with or without the Overmind)" has no basis until BW itself supplies you with information in that the game shows the Zerg still being attracted.
    SC1 explains how it works. Zerg are attuned to ghost signals. Psi emitters send that signal across worlds. BW doesn't change that.

    Yes, but the Terrans don't actually know the "why" of it. We do because we've played the Zerg campaign and read the BG history of the Overmind's motivation to capture a psionic. The Zerg are attracted to the emitters not because they just inherently are, but because it was the motivation of the underlying intelligence that was guiding the Zerg.
    Except none of those things actually say that. Just because you have a hypothesis doesn't make it right.

    You're misunderstanding the intent of my position it seems. I'm not questioning why a psionic emitter would or would not work in giving off an amplified Ghost signal, but challenging your self-assumed notion that the Zerg are innately attracted to psionics for NO REASON. What you refer to as "zerg-attracting signals" are merely amplified Ghost signals. That the Zerg are attracted to them is incidental.
    I'm literally quoting the game. You can refer to the signals as whatever you want.

    This naturally implies that the psi emitters should not be affected by the Disruptor... unless you're now saying that it's a weak counter, but then that's a further assumption with no basis. That the Psi emitters effectiveness is clearly different from before (it's much weaker) as a result of the disruptors presence requires more "mental gymnastics" to justify (where does one even begin to look?) than the established reason for any attraction at all is because the Overmind was present then in Sc1 and that the attraction is still present but much more limited now in BW because there's an immature neo-Overmind.
    It requires mental gymnastics to understand that they're opposite devices that can counteract each other? Sorry, we'll just have to disagree. It's an extremely easy concept.

    Only if you can provide evidence that the Overmind was metaphysically free in Sc1. One can't, because it's implicit.

    Just as you and I would rail against the Overmind retcon (keep in mind that my use of the term "retcon" does not include acknowledging whether a contradiction exists or not since additive retcon do not contradict and are still termed retcons) in WoL based on the "fanon"/implied cues that the Overmind is metaphysically free, I'm railing against why the Zerg are still being attracted to psionics retcon in Covert Ops (and BW to an extent) based on the "fanon"/implicit cues (found in the manual and then explored in the Zerg campaign) that the Overmind is the reason for such an attraction, who actually happens to be no longer around now. I'm being consistent.
    False analogy. SC1 explains how emitters work. You don't get to cop-out to ignorance when the game gives you an explanation. Not the case with the Overmind retcon.

    What you're failing to understand is that the reason for why the Zerg are attracted to psionic emanations is because the Zerg/Overmind is looking for them is the first implicit cue and takes precedence, not that the Zerg (with/without the Overmind) are attracted innately to psionic emanations at all times.
    Why should I buy your "implicit cue" when the game gives its own explanation and your cue would end up creating a plothole in BW? Occam's razor. My theory makes the fewest assumptions, therefore your hypothesis loses out, not just because it makes absolutely no sense for zerg to still follow a defunct order from a dead character. I don't begrudge you having a hypotheses, it just needs to fit facts.

    All we know about the Psi-emitters comes solely from the limited perspective of Terrans - who can be wrong and are known to be biased. All that the Terrans really know and observe is that the Zerg are attracted to Ghost psionic emanations. It's a whole other thing to then assume and make the conclusion that why they are attracted to them at all is because they just naturally are in all cases forevermore. Case in point is when Raynor finds caged Zerg in Confedrate holdings in the lab on Antiga and Mengsk then naturally assumes the Zerg were created by the Confeds and bred them as some part of conspiracy to takeover the sector. Mengsk is somewhat right but he's making the wrong conclusion based on his limited perspective. We, the audience, know more and have a wider perspective than he does. Also, in LotV, even Karax corrects the assumptions of the Terrans conclusions about what the Keystone/artifact is capable of in WoL.
    Another false analogy. The manual gave us a clear history of the zerg and their coming to the k-sector. Actual dramatic irony. It says absolutely nothing of your hypothesis.

    I came up with a similar theory (that humans were really amnesiac, timetravelling future Xel'Naga) way back when to mock the Overmind retcon in WoL setting up a bad precedent for future lore.
    Hey, why the hell not? Since any implicit cue is to be taken as fact now according to you, anything is possible! :P

    Ahh, but I would only do this if I adopted your position since I've established that what you deem as "implicit" regarding why the Zerg are attracted to psionics is incorrect.
    I'm quoting explanations from the game. You're proposing a theory that creates a plothole in BW, and you expect us to give it precedence over the game because of an argument from ignorance. Why not just accept what the game says?

  5. #65

    Default Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Yes, that's essentially what "zerg are attuned to the psionic emanations of ghosts" means. The zerg response to ghosts is inherent.
    No, it does not "essentially" mean that. That quote is merely an observation, it does not imply anything about actual causation or the why of things. Being "attracted to something" just means being "attracted to something", not that the "attraction is inherent" or that the attraction is caused by the psionic emanations. You're demonstrating a post hoc fallacy ("a" occurred, then "b" occurred, thereforre "a" caused "b". Not always).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    SC1 explains how it works. Zerg are attuned to ghost signals. Psi emitters send that signal across worlds. BW doesn't change that.
    BW changes the why of it (why they're attracted/attuned), much like WoL changes the why of the Overmind's motivation to attack the Protoss. WoL doesn't exactly change what actually happens in Sc1 either and yet you rail against that using the same position I'm presenting here to explain why there's contention regarding the Zerg attraction to psionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Except none of those things actually say that. Just because you have a hypothesis doesn't make it right.
    You've railed against this very same defence (what I've bolded) as being feeble and apologist in regards to the Overmind retcon in WoL and then go ahead and use it to defend your position here. Frankly, I'm somewhat in disbelief I have to point this out for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    It requires mental gymnastics to understand that they're opposite devices that can counteract each other?
    They counteract each other in undefined/non-specific ways so yeah, it requires mental gymnastics to say why the emitter is countering the disruptor but not really working like it used to be because the disruptor is also countering its full potential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    False analogy. SC1 explains how emitters work.
    How is it a false analogy? Sc1 explains how the Overmind works as well. Regardless, the point of contention is not about how the emitter works but why it works. You're conflating the how and the why as the same thing. It is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Why should I buy your "implicit cue" when the game gives its own explanation and your cue would end up creating a plothole in BW? Occam's razor. My theory makes the fewest assumptions, therefore your hypothesis loses out, not just because it makes absolutely no sense for zerg to still follow a defunct order from a dead character.
    My position is not one I hold exclusively. There are those who firmly believe that the Zerg attraction to psionics was attributed to the Overmind (given that it is the Zerg) due to "implicit cues". It's not a position that comes "out of nowhere" since it's grounded in the lore of the presented Zerg history and so therefore, what BW shows us (that the Zerg still being attracted) can be construed as a plot-hole. BW presents a couple plot-devices/outs to band-aid (not totally fix mind you) over such a plot-hole. In the case above, the neo-Overmind does that because that's keeping in with came before. You're "fix", in saying that the Zerg were always just attracted to psionics for no particular reason at all can therefore be seen as confusing retroactive continuity because the implicit cue that the Overmind is the reason for why the Zerg are attracted in the first place is stronger (due to the wealth of material we have access to in Sc1 and its manual) than the implicit cue that there is no reason why the Zerg are attracted (where your evidence is one non-specific remark about being attuned without any exploration of the why).

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Another false analogy. The manual gave us a clear history of the zerg and their coming to the k-sector. Actual dramatic irony. It says absolutely nothing of your hypothesis.
    The analogy proves the point that Terrans are often wrong when it comes to what they think they know about the aliens. All they know is what they can observe and they make (often incorrect) conclusions from it. It's dramatic irony, too that the Terrans think they can direct/control the Zerg to their whims with psionic emanations when they're really making it easier for/just playing into the Overmind's agenda of capturing a psionic individual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Hey, why the hell not? Since any implicit cue is to be taken as fact now according to you, anything is possible! :P
    I never said that all arguments of ignorance are implicit cues. That Sc2 seeems to want to make us think they are now is the reason why I don't like talking about the prospect of Sc lore from Sc2 onwards because literally anything is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    You're proposing a theory that creates a plothole in BW, and you expect us to give it precedence over the game because of an argument from ignorance. Why not just accept what the game says?
    The difference is because you're refuting that a plot-hole ever existed by using a later entry to cement your argument (I have demonstrated above that the "Zerg being attuned to psionic emanations" statement in Sc1 alone is very weak evidence for your position) to whereas my position contends there was always a plot-hole using the first entry as the basis. You're asking of me to accept what the game says is not possible because you are asking me to be inconsistent with the logic that I've used. If I were to accept what the game says, I wouldn't be railing against the Overmind retcon in WoL. I'm consistent because the same logic I've applied here is the same in regards to my position on the Overmind retcon in WoL. Yours is not.

    If "the Zerg are attracted to psionics because of the Overmind" is an "argument from ignorance", I would have to include "the Overmind is metaphysically free" as being one, too, if you want me to concede. That'd make more logical sense than me acquiescing to your internally inconsistent view of differentiating that "the Zerg are attracted to psionics because of the Overmind" is an argument of ignorance whereas "the Overmind is metaphysically free" is somehow not.
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  6. #66

    Default Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

    Ok, I'm not getting these arguments from you guys.

    From the original manual, we learn the zerg are naturally attuned to psychic signals before being incorporated into the Overmind. Also that zerg strive for evolutionary advancement. Ergo, even if we ignore the Overmind's directives, as well as its post-hoc motivations in StarCraft II, we can still conclude that curiosity in powerful psionic signals would be a natural zerg trait.

    Now, if we assume the Overmind's intent were somehow preserved in the hivemind, then it would be natural for zerg to still be attracted to the potential of assimilating psionic potential.

    Moreover, as no zerg other than Kerrigan ever manifested powerful psychic ability, it would be natural for Zagara or any other queen to desire psychic essence.

    So, elaborate for me how this whole psi emitter thing is some kind of overly convoluted plot hole for you guys. Occam's razor. Just break it down.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    From the original manual, we learn the zerg are naturally attuned to psychic signals before being incorporated into the Overmind.
    Nope. I've re-read the manual on Zerg history and there's nothing that says or even remotely hints that the Zerg were naturally attuned to psychic signals before being incorporated into the Overmind (the segment titled The Birth of the Zerg). It does state, however, that their attraction to psionics stems from the Overmind's intent in trying to find it amongst the Terrans (The Determinant).

    Besides, if the Zerg were so naturally sensitive in their detection and attraction to psionics, they would have found Aiur and the Protoss much, much earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Now, if we assume the Overmind's intent were somehow preserved in the hivemind, then it would be natural for zerg to still be attracted to the potential of assimilating psionic potential.
    Yeah, but this assumption would be deemed "mental gymnastics" by Grad. However, this is the possible "out" for why there's still some attraction to psionics in BW (but not as powerful as before) since the Overmind still exists but is not as it was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Moreover, as no zerg other than Kerrigan ever manifested powerful psychic ability, it would be natural for Zagara or any other queen to desire psychic essence.
    But aren't the new Queens and Broodmothers psychically improved over what came before because of Kerrigan's induction into the Swarm? Or are we supposed to take it she was not assimilated (as in her psionic potential was not integrated into the Swarm) by the Overmind, just merely infested?
    Last edited by Turalyon; 05-08-2016 at 08:58 AM.
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  8. #68
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    No, it does not "essentially" mean that. That quote is merely an observation, it does not imply anything about actual causation or the why of things. Being "attracted to something" just means being "attracted to something", not that the "attraction is inherent" or that the attraction is caused by the psionic emanations. You're demonstrating a post hoc fallacy ("a" occurred, then "b" occurred, thereforre "a" caused "b". Not always).
    Read it again: "Those running the program found that the Zerg are attuned to the psychic emanations of Ghosts."

    This is what the game gives us as the cause for the attraction. Expecting a video game to go into further details would result in meaningless technobabble.

    BW changes the why of it (why they're attracted/attuned), much like WoL changes the why of the Overmind's motivation to attack the Protoss.
    Again, no it doesn't. In SC1 and Novert Ops the zerg respond to ghost signals, in BW they respond to Kerrigan's signals, who was actually a former ghost. This is the simplest explanation. Overlaying your Overmind theory on top of this would render the game nonsensical. The Overmind is dead and the new one isn't even conscious enough to give orders or have reason to keep looking for human psychics when it's in a civil war with a human psychic right now.

    WoL doesn't exactly change what actually happens in Sc1 either and yet you rail against that using the same position I'm presenting here to explain why there's contention regarding the Zerg attraction to psionics.

    You've railed against this very same defence (what I've bolded) as being feeble and apologist in regards to the Overmind retcon in WoL and then go ahead and use it to defend your position here. Frankly, I'm somewhat in disbelief I have to point this out for you.
    I'm absolutely baffled why you think this line of thought is getting you anywhere. You're essentially looking for an excuse to make it ok to appeal to ignorance to defend your argument. Once again:

    Psi Emitters:
    - mechanism of action clearly described in SC1

    Overmind Retcon:
    - nowhere is it explained/implied in SC1 that he lacks free will. In fact, this is probably the worst example to illustrate your point given that Zeratul outright invalidates Amon's existence & the Overmind's slavery when he touched minds with the Overmind and learned everything about him. It's a full-blown contradiction.

    I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find a less relevant false analogy. The psi emitters work exactly the same throughout all the games: a psychic channels into them and the zerg respond. The Overmind retcon sends the character on a 180 degree heel-face turn that totally changes our interpretation of him. You seem to think I'm just dismissing your "implicit cue" for the mere fact that it's not outright stated anywhere, but I'm not. I'm dismissing it because it doesn't make any sense and my theory is more elegant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visions of Khas View Post
    Ok, I'm not getting these arguments from you guys.

    From the original manual, we learn the zerg are naturally attuned to psychic signals before being incorporated into the Overmind. Also that zerg strive for evolutionary advancement. Ergo, even if we ignore the Overmind's directives, as well as its post-hoc motivations in StarCraft II, we can still conclude that curiosity in powerful psionic signals would be a natural zerg trait.

    Now, if we assume the Overmind's intent were somehow preserved in the hivemind, then it would be natural for zerg to still be attracted to the potential of assimilating psionic potential.

    Moreover, as no zerg other than Kerrigan ever manifested powerful psychic ability, it would be natural for Zagara or any other queen to desire psychic essence.

    So, elaborate for me how this whole psi emitter thing is some kind of overly convoluted plot hole for you guys. Occam's razor. Just break it down.
    There's no plothole. The "plothole" is from Turalyon's idea that the zerg are only attracted to psi emitters because the Overmind said so, who is now dead and who actually stopped looking for psychic humans at the end of episode 2. It makes no sense that baby Overmind would still be sending out the "assimilate human psychics" order, or Zagara in Novert Ops considering she's supposed to be peaceful now and the Overminds are dead. Kerrigan ended human experimentation in HoTS (supposedly), so there's no reason the Overmind's intent would be preserved.

    Now, if we assume the Overmind's intent were somehow preserved in the hivemind, then it would be natural for zerg to still be attracted to the potential of assimilating psionic potential.
    I disagree that Zerg are attracted just because the Overmind was looking for psychics. Even in SC: Uprising, 10 years before SC1, zerg respond to human telepaths before the swarm ever invaded. This was presumably the first time they had ever interacted.

    All evidence points to the fact that the zergs' attraction to telepaths is just an innate thing. On the other hand I've found zero evidence of the "Overmind said so" hypotheses, which isn't even a working theory since it raises even more problems and questions that Turalyon seems keen on ignoring. Layering zerg leader motivations as an excuse for why psi emitters work only creates further problems. My explanation is the simplest and makes the fewest assumptions, given that I'm literally just quoting the game.

  9. #69

    Default Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon
    Nope. I've re-read the manual on Zerg history and there's nothing that says or even remotely hints that the Zerg were naturally attuned to psychic signals before being incorporated into the Overmind (the segment titled The Birth of the Zerg).
    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius
    Read it again: "Those running the program found that the Zerg are attuned to the psychic emanations of Ghosts."

    This is what the game gives us as the cause for the attraction. Expecting a video game to go into further details would result in meaningless technobabble.

    Mm, nope. Someone's losing their edge.

    Zerg Units

    Larva
    Type: Hive Spawn
    Core Genus: Original Zerg Strain
    Primary Attack: None


    The closest creatures to the original zerg insectoids
    are the Zerg larvae. Although their size and toughness
    were greatly boosted by the Xel'Naga during their
    experiments, they still possess the two traits that originally
    intrigued the ancient masters: genetic versatility and
    psychic sensitivity.

    Now, I have a .pdf of the manual on my computer; but has anyone else noticed that the Race Histories tab on the SCL Encyclopedia actually redirects to the planets list?
    Last edited by Visions of Khas; 05-09-2016 at 03:36 PM.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Nova: Covert Ops [SPOILERS]

    I thought psi emitters were consistent in the first star craft.
    For whatever reason, the individual Zerg minions were attracted to the psi emitters and would seek them out unless they were given other orders by their superiors
    Early on, you had the Overmind and cerebrates noticing this pull on their minions so they decided to go in full force to investigate.
    It's not very complicated

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