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Thread: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

  1. #21

    Default Re: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post

    It would've been better if they were since it'd do away with having to explain (which they didn't) why they can't be controlled by Amon despite still having their nerve cords when they rebelled
    But they did. The Tal'Darim have no Khala. Maybe they are in the "Aeon of Strife" state - they have the cords but are full of hate and violence and can't connect. They probably left Aiur before Khas. Makes sense, didn't it? Amon gets pissed with most of Protoss and separates just a few of them which he takes to distant parts of the galaxy, then goes to Zerus, then the Khala wakes the Xel'Naga and they wage war with Amon, resulting in his death - surprisingly, this is Starcraft II chronology which makes sense! You gotta cherish the good things you have

    The first Nerazim were born in a planet full of Khala. They'd join it if they didn't cut the cords. It is unclear if a young Nerazim in 2500 or so, before they made contact with Aiur again, would need to cut their cords or if it would be just a ritual by then.




    and that they just apparently have been everywhere in the K sector for a long time but apparently and suddenly have made themselves known only now.
    It is weird, but specially because how they were presented in WoL. All of a sudden you have this faction of Protoss that shouldn't exist according to ANY piece of lore, and everyone - psych Tosh, Protoss-friend Raynor, etc - think it's completely normal they're out there. So they aren't weird guys who came out of nowhere and now you get your head scratching because it's something the writer does put there as a mistery - it's just lazy and incoherent. We're supposed to think it's ok to have Protoss foes which aren't Daelam nor Nerazim. Very stupid, for sure.

    In LotV, they did what they could to correct it. I don't remember if it was Vorazun who says she now sees they might had been fighting an invisible war with the Tal'Darim for millenia. Not the best answer.... I think some of the nomadic Nerazim should have known the Tal'Darim existed (as they would also flock to Xel'Naga relics). But at least they have an explanation to why the Tal'Darim have the same units. It really got me pissed off the Tal'Darim had Colossi and Immortals in WoL - those were supposed to be secret or new weapons of the Daelam. Now it does make sense if you apply a pint of imagination on WoL missions, which is something all gamers should do, btw, all media but movies expect the public to use their imagination and video games are getting sillier as the public demands more photorealistic games. But I digress.


    I probably would've preferred them as Nerazim since it needs to be acknowledged that not all Dark Templar are "good" and it would give us a reason why mainstream Protoss shunned/feared them (and still do) in the first place. Like the Templar being the "good" to the "bad" of the Conclave (much as I dislike how it has been reduced to such disctinctions at all) for the Protoss on Aiur, the Nerazim needed something like what the Tal'Darim represent to balance the inherent "goodness" of those Protoss on Shakuras.
    Agreed. I'd like more Nerazim villains or rogues. I do like the Tal'Darim though, I think they were turned from a lore-shattering plot hole to a nice addition.


    The Tal'Darim aren't needed to be evil Aiur Protoss, because Blizz already have done that by foisting it onto the Conclave.
    Burn, hehehe. Judicators, the original mustache twirling villains of Starcraft. The anti-clericalism is strong in this one. I don't know, I'd really love to see the Judicator as corrupt manipulating assholes who still make themselves necessary because of their actual wisdom. The way they turned out it's like they've always been parasites.

    The extremes the Tal'Darim go to are better explained from the Nerazim POV. How? Well, the invidividualism of the Nerazim can easily breed a character like the one we see as Alarak in LotV. The nomadic lifestyle can explain why they just suddenly have appeared now because they were previously off on their own pursuits having broken away from the "good" Shakuras Nerazim. Their religiosity and mysticism can become this fanaticism which is characterised in the game we got as this worshipping of Amon.
    I like it your way and I like Blizzard's way. I wish both things were true in the lore.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Huh? He seems like a 'Toss to me. He seems more like a normal example of a Templar than Tassadar. Tassadar is a rebel, but Fenix represents what the Templar are in normal circumstances.
    At the time of Sc1, we only had Tassadar, Aldaris and Zeratul to compare Fenix against so I'm basing what I said about a "typical Protoss" is by looking at commonalities that the majority of those characters had. Those latter three (majority) have a certain and consistent "air"/nobility to them that Fenix lacks. In LotV all the other Protoss "characters" are stiff and righteous in their own ways, whilst Alarak just cuts the shit and has no pretensions.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    But they did. The Tal'Darim have no Khala. Maybe they are in the "Aeon of Strife" state - they have the cords but are full of hate and violence and can't connect. They probably left Aiur before Khas. Makes sense, didn't it?
    It's only really assumed so. It's never really made clear or explained. We shouldn't have to work with "maybes" and "probablys" to make it fit. What with the ongoing and fluid retroactive continuity, it's even more difficult to understand.

    As far as I'm concerned, the Khala was something that can be opted out of at any time without having to cut one's cords off. The first Nerazim are examples of this. You're wrong about the Nerazim needing to cut off their cords otherwise they'll be subsumed by the Khala because a) the communal link existed before the Aeon of Strife and opting out of this link (not cutting their cords) by choice alone was what caused it and b) the Nerazim didn't cut off their cords originally to physically deny themselves to the Khala, but merely as a symbolic gesture.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    It is weird, but specially because how they were presented in WoL. All of a sudden you have this faction of Protoss that shouldn't exist according to ANY piece of lore, and everyone - psych Tosh, Protoss-friend Raynor, etc - think it's completely normal they're out there. So they aren't weird guys who came out of nowhere and now you get your head scratching because it's something the writer does put there as a mistery - it's just lazy and incoherent. We're supposed to think it's ok to have Protoss foes which aren't Daelam nor Nerazim. Very stupid, for sure.

    In LotV, they did what they could to correct it. I don't remember if it was Vorazun who says she now sees they might had been fighting an invisible war with the Tal'Darim for millenia. Not the best answer.... I think some of the nomadic Nerazim should have known the Tal'Darim existed (as they would also flock to Xel'Naga relics). But at least they have an explanation to why the Tal'Darim have the same units. It really got me pissed off the Tal'Darim had Colossi and Immortals in WoL - those were supposed to be secret or new weapons of the Daelam. Now it does make sense if you apply a pint of imagination on WoL missions, which is something all gamers should do, btw, all media but movies expect the public to use their imagination and video games are getting sillier as the public demands more photorealistic games. But I digress.
    Agreed. Unfortunately, even despite what they could, the Tal'Darim are but only one example of the many instances of this "weirdness" throughout Sc2. Makes you think that the whole thing was written without much forethought/planning. Ironically, I actually am hoping that were the case because if Sc2's story was revealed to be meticulously planned out from the get go.... I shudder at the mere thought of that being the possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    Burn, hehehe. Judicators, the original mustache twirling villains of Starcraft. The anti-clericalism is strong in this one. I don't know, I'd really love to see the Judicator as corrupt manipulating assholes who still make themselves necessary because of their actual wisdom. The way they turned out it's like they've always been parasites.
    Tell me about it. The Conclave were fully justified in their actions during Sc1 and there was nothing inherently "evil" about them at all. Their strategy against the Zerg was working until Tassadar decided to change things up and then they feared their highest military commander was in cahoots with an element of their society that in the past was directly responsible for a centuries long dark age which almost led to their own extinction had Khas not appeared to kickstart and ultimately setup the civilisation they have today. In Sc2, Blizz seems to like reducing things down into Manichean terms. Just look at how Rohana is represented as a character - she's made out to be all that's ever wrong about the Conclave and then only becomes "good" when she acquiesces to Artanis' persistent nagging of her to cut her chords which are both figuratively "bad" because holding onto history just arbitrarily is for whatever reason and physically "bad" because it's connected to Amon who is just arbitrarily evil for whatever reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    I like it your way and I like Blizzard's way. I wish both things were true in the lore.
    Like Nissa said, my way would be even better had we done away with Amon as well. That way, they could also cut out the religious/mystic stuff, too since they are not necessarily (and never were when it comes to the Protoss in Sc1) the only prerequisite for zealotry and fanaticism. See how Zeratul views Aldaris as being "blinded" by the "vaunted religion" that is the Conclave for example. The greatest irony here is that he then becomes a hypocrite when you take that in context of what happens with him in Sc2.
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  3. #23

    Default Re: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

    It's only really assumed so. It's never really made clear or explained. We shouldn't have to work with "maybes" and "probablys" to make it fit.
    I think they adopt an economy of exposition. They don't want to explain everything because it takes time. Of course, this means Q&As in conventions get biiig lines over this kind of detail.

    As far as I'm concerned, the Khala was something that can be opted out of at any time without having to cut one's cords off. The first Nerazim are examples of this. You're wrong about the Nerazim needing to cut off their cords otherwise they'll be subsumed by the Khala because a) the communal link existed before the Aeon of Strife and opting out of this link (not cutting their cords) by choice alone was what caused it and b) the Nerazim didn't cut off their cords originally to physically deny themselves to the Khala, but merely as a symbolic gesture.
    Hm, maybe they could opt out after a lot of training or being raised differently. Nowhere it says a Protoss could instantly shut the Khala away from its mind. And we know from BW manual that the Judicator could mind control other Protoss in the Khala. So I think in the middle of a crisis of mind invasion there was nothing the Aiur Protoss could do but cut off their neural cords. Rohana actually found a way to isolate herself from Amon with sheer willpower and training, and I think Artanis made her cut them off more because he needed to destroy the Khala and Rohana's Khala would mean Amon would have somewhere to hide then because he was making a case of "changing her mind", so to speak.

    Tell me about it. The Conclave were fully justified in their actions during Sc1 and there was nothing inherently "evil" about them at all.
    I feel like after a lot of years Metzen forgot a lot of SC plot and only remembered a simplified version of what he wrote. They dealt with the Judicators in SC2 continuity very goofily.

    . Just look at how Rohana is represented as a character - she's made out to be all that's ever wrong about the Conclave and then only becomes "good" when she acquiesces to Artanis' persistent nagging of her to cut her chords which are both figuratively "bad" because holding onto history just arbitrarily is for whatever reason and physically "bad" because it's connected to Amon who is just arbitrarily evil for whatever reason.
    Now, I disagree on this. I think Rohana was shown to be wise in her own way. As and I said in OP, LotV is a lot about letting go. She didn't want to, but in the end, she's a collectivist to her core, and being the last Khala user in the universe would be an unbearable contradiction. She has faith she can bare the pain of change, though. She accepts her leadership. And so on. It is her Judicator personality and religious zeal that makes her cut off the cords in the end.

    That way, they could also cut out the religious/mystic stuff, too since they are not necessarily (and never were when it comes to the Protoss in Sc1) the only prerequisite for zealotry and fanaticism. See how Zeratul views Aldaris as being "blinded" by the "vaunted religion" that is the Conclave for example. The greatest irony here is that he then becomes a hypocrite when you take that in context of what happens with him in Sc2.
    You think the Protoss sound like fanatics in SC2? To me, they sound religious, but not fanatics at all. Artanis is rather the reformist and the pragmatist. I think religiosity is something really great to explore in fiction. Might be because I'm religious myself, but I like to imagine how aliens would experience their (pretty much) non-theistic faith.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    I think they adopt an economy of exposition. They don't want to explain everything because it takes time.
    Economy of exposition is fine if the detail is not important. This is not the case. They go out of their way to demonstrate that the Khala is tied to nerve cords and that the Khala can be controlled through those nerve cords. This suggests that this type of exposition is important. But later (and only very obliquely) they suggest that the Khala is not tied to nerve cords (the Tal'Darim) and then expect others to accept that unreservedly as the reason the Tal'Darim can't ever be controlled by Amon and that Protoss just can't disconnect without cutting off their cords? Feels like a cheat or that they didn't know what they were doing rather than being coy about releasing that information.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    Hm, maybe they could opt out after a lot of training or being raised differently. Nowhere it says a Protoss could instantly shut the Khala away from its mind.
    Read the origin story in the manual. The nascent Protoss were easily able to disconnect from their communal link (no training involved) - it led to the Aeon of Strife and I presume it's partly why the Conclave were still fearful and so rigid in "following the path" because it's so easy to fall off it like it did in the beginning and may lead to another Aeon of Strife.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    And we know from BW manual that the Judicator could mind control other Protoss in the Khala.
    Really? You'd have to provide a quote because there wasn't much lore in the BW manual, let alone anything about Judicators as far as I can recall.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    So I think in the middle of a crisis of mind invasion there was nothing the Aiur Protoss could do but cut off their neural cords. Rohana actually found a way to isolate herself from Amon with sheer willpower and training, and I think Artanis made her cut them off more because he needed to destroy the Khala and Rohana's Khala would mean Amon would have somewhere to hide then because he was making a case of "changing her mind", so to speak.
    The difficulty in extricating oneself from the Khala as you have identified would implicitly and further demand an explanation as to why the Tal'darim have no Khala and why their nerve cords don't make them vulnerable.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    I think Rohana was shown to be wise in her own way.
    She's not wise according the protagonist (and by extension the audience) though, just stubborn. She's petty for disapproving of Artanis' decision to mingle with the Nerazim, Purifier's and the Tal'Darim despite their race being on the verge of extinction (it's worse than the coming of the Zerg the first time round) and clings onto something that poses a very real risk to the last surviving free members of her race just because of her pride and some useless (although interesting) expository information about Amon and their origins that serves nothing to help their current predicament (Artanis' plan would've still continued as it was had he never conversed with Rohana at all).

    She's worse than Aldaris since at least he believed that the Protoss were winning against their enemy at the time whereas Rohana knows from the start that they are on the losing end and yet still persists in her bigotry and selfish desire whilst offering nothing tangible in return. So while the Conclave/Judicators may have been ultimately stupid but for a reason in Sc1 (as depicted by Aldaris), the Conclave/Judicator are actually stupid for no reason (as depicted by Rohana - who is supposed to be wiser than the Conclave/Judiactors because she has access to all memories of past Protoss being a "preserver") in Sc2.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    You think the Protoss sound like fanatics in SC2? To me, they sound religious, but not fanatics at all. Artanis is rather the reformist and the pragmatist. I think religiosity is something really great to explore in fiction. Might be because I'm religious myself, but I like to imagine how aliens would experience their (pretty much) non-theistic faith.
    The Protoss do have baseline units called Zealots afterall, so it's not that hard to say that some level of fanaticism is at play (they "long for combat" afterall). Besides, the words are synonymous and not always linked to religion. For example, being an avid enthusiast of football would mean you're a football fanatic or "fan" for short.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

    I think we might begin to disagree here

    They go out of their way to demonstrate that the Khala is tied to nerve cords and that the Khala can be controlled through those nerve cords. This suggests that this type of exposition is important
    Yes, it was very clearly this kind of exposition you make so you can reference to it later. However, I think they made it to show what the Khala is and the emotional impact of cutting oneself from it and later destroying it completely. This is interesting, because some reviews complained of too much backstory being mentioned, some thought it was great the feeling was being cut from the Khala was mentioned, and I thought it was too little explored!

    I understand that maybe they confused some people (tying nerve cords to the Khala and then mentioning guys who have the nerves and not the Khala...). But to me it was clearly because the Tal'Darim are so different and obviously they have nothing in common with the Khala (they're selfish bastards).

    The nascent Protoss were easily able to disconnect from their communal link (no training involved) - it led to the Aeon of Strife
    It isn't what it says. The primitive communal link was something. The Khala is based on it, but it's something else. It's much more.

    I think no Protoss has the primitive communal link anymore. The Tal'Darim were cut from it since the Aeon of Strife and the Nerazim are physically incapable of it (and now the Aiur Protoss too). Perhaps it could appear again.

    The difficulty in extricating oneself from the Khala as you have identified would implicitly and further demand an explanation as to why the Tal'darim have no Khala and why their nerve cords don't make them vulnerable.
    To me it sounds natural that having the nerve cords isn't enough to be in the Khala, but cutting them is enough to lose it. The Khala is a discipline. It's like learning to read. The brain of a illiterate adult is different from a literate one. Once you teach an adult to learn, his brain changes in many ways (including losing musical memory, apparently) and he can't ever unlearn reading. However, you could lobotomize him. So the Tal'Darim are "illiterate", their neurology is different of those who were trained in the Khala discipline; not to mention the Khala is not simply physical, but also psionic; it seems intuitive to me that if you are not ressonating within a psionic gestalt you're not affected by what happens within it.

    You'd have to provide a quote because there wasn't much lore in the BW manual, let alone anything about Judicators as far as I can recall.
    Well, all we know is from the wiki, isn't it?

    http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_control

    She's not wise according the protagonist (and by extension the audience) though, just stubborn
    I disagree the views of the protagonist are the views of the audience OR the views the author wants the audience to have. It just isn't that simple. Since the Antiquity, the protagonist is the guy you both relate to and disagree with (that's Oedipus Rex according to Aristotle). Or he may be the guy you hate or the guy you want to be or the guy you're analysing or a metaphor to discuss class and capitalism.

    Or, in epics, the "protagonist" is just the guy who gets more screen time (verse time?) and his emotions are not necessarily interwined with the narrative.

    Even if the adds say "you are Artanis", this is an add, and it tells you of gameplay. It doesn't mean the authors want you to agree with him. They even said they wanted you to understand Amon's motivations, which Artanis certainly doesn't care about.

    Source: I've been studying Aristotle's Poetics and how they relate to games since last year. I may be talking nonsense but it's nonsense I've been reading about

    She's petty for disapproving of Artanis' decision to mingle with the Nerazim, Purifier's and the Tal'Darim despite their race being on the verge of extinction
    Well, frankly I kind of think she has a point about the Tal'Darim and the Purifiers. Integrating both means a terrifying change to their identity.

    poses a very real risk to the last surviving free members of her race just because of her pride and some useless (although interesting) expository information about Amon and their origins that serves nothing to help their current predicament (Artanis' plan would've still continued as it was had he never conversed with Rohana at all).
    I was too surprised it was for nothing. I really thought we would be able to save the Khala in the end - we had Karax studying the Keystone in one side and Rohana probing Amon's mind in the other! But guess what... it didn't work. We can't save the Khala! They really tried, though... See, it had a narrative purpose. The name's "red herring"! I played half the game excited about the moment we'd save the Khala and when she cut her cords I was like OH WHAT THE FUCK BLIZZARD. 8/10, would get mad again.
    yet still persists in her bigotry and selfish desire whilst offering nothing tangible in return
    I think she's pretty heroic in carrying such burden and fighting so much evil all by herself. Paradoxically, her status as the last free mind in the Khala was outrageously lonely, and she was in company of her race again when she cut them off. As Gradius said, she was an alien from another time, among her own race. And it isn't selfish to try to preserve the metaphysical treasure the Khala was.

    The Protoss do have baseline units called Zealots afterall, so it's not that hard to say that some level of fanaticism is at play (they "long for combat" afterall). Besides, the words are synonymous and not always linked to religion.
    Well, it is true. But Artanis is pretty open minded and even Rohana is a very rational traditionalist. Maybe Alarak is the most fanatical of the gang. In no moment he second guesses the values he learned from Amon.

  6. #26
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

    I still think the plot holes are indefensible. You can't tell me that there isn't some random khalai with nerve cords stuck on some planet/asteroid out there somewhere in the universe where Amon could "hide". Rohana agreeing to cut off her nerve cords and lose millennia worth of knowledge of billions of sapient beings is a massive loss. Nobody even tried to find another way. They could have put her in stasis or something, but they invalidated all of SC1's lore just to get across the message that "collectivism & old ways = bad". Gah. Now every single faction (khalai, dark templar, taldarim) uses void energy or whatever the alternative to the khala is. It's ironic that the game pushes such an anti-collectivism message down our throats but that now all the protoss factions are even further homogenized.

    Then Amon. I don't understand why he didn't just go forth with his plan to hybridize zerg/protoss before thousands of years ago. He had Narud who lived in the real world. He could communicate straight with the Tal'Darim. He had primal zerg. Why waste time getting the Overmind to attack the protoss? Just make your hybrids right then and there before the Xel'Naga kill you, or even after they kill you since death doesn't matter.

    LoTV may have been a huge improvement over the previous 2 games, but I can't take any installment in SC2 seriously. :/

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    It isn't what it says. The primitive communal link was something. The Khala is based on it, but it's something else. It's much more.

    I think no Protoss has the primitive communal link anymore. The Tal'Darim were cut from it since the Aeon of Strife and the Nerazim are physically incapable of it (and now the Aiur Protoss too). Perhaps it could appear again.
    It's essentially the same thing. All Khas did was rediscover how to link to it with khaydarin crystals. He didn't make anything new.


    Well, all we know is from the wiki, isn't it?

    http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Mind_control
    BW manual:

    "Although subtle use of psionics to influence others has long been utilized by the Judicator Caste, the ability to totally control the minds or bodies of others has long been thought to be impossible. This power of command is the ultimate weapon in the arsenal of the Dark Archon. "

    They use psionics to talk, so it's not surprising, but it's not mind control.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    opting out of this link (not cutting their cords) by choice alone was what caused it and b) the Nerazim didn't cut off their cords originally to physically deny themselves to the Khala, but merely as a symbolic gesture.
    Doesn't that go to show then that nerve cords don't necessarily give you access to the khala? The dark templar alienated themselves from their primal link just by not going into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    (Artanis' plan would've still continued as it was had he never conversed with Rohana at all).
    Didn't she use her link with Amon to discover Amon's plans? I think it was the location of his body or some such. I forget. :P
    Last edited by Gradius; 02-24-2016 at 08:15 PM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Didn't she use her link with Amon to discover Amon's plans? I think it was the location of his body or some such. I forget. :P
    She did, this was why Artanis admitted in the end, the connection to the Khala wasn't worthless after all.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    I think we might begin to disagree here
    Excellent, this is where the fun begins!

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    However, I think they made it to show what the Khala is and the emotional impact of cutting oneself from it and later destroying it completely.

    I understand that maybe they confused some people (tying nerve cords to the Khala and then mentioning guys who have the nerves and not the Khala...). But to me it was clearly because the Tal'Darim are so different and obviously they have nothing in common with the Khala (they're selfish bastards).
    You've touched on something here I think. You've identified that the plot device that is the "Khala" is both used in the manner to elicit feels and in the manner to explain what is going on plotwise. The problem at hand then is how effective it was to use one manner to rely on the other manner as a proper explaination for it. I think that getting the audience to just intuit/feel that the Tal'Darim are different and accepting that is the wrong approach when they focused so much on the nuts and bolts of the thing from the get-go. Like I said, it feels like a cheat or bad writing rather than something that they intentionally tried in order to be clever.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    It isn't what it says. The primitive communal link was something. The Khala is based on it, but it's something else. It's much more.
    Yeah, it's the communal link but with a name! Definitely much more than before.

    Jokes aside, the problem with the Khala is that the word is used to describe several things (ie: it's a religion, a system of thought, a source of psionic power, a psionic communal link etc) singularly, in multiple or all aspects at once but without specification at any given time. I've had discussions on this with someone else about this elsewhere and boy, was that difficult. My POV of the Khala stems from the original manual. It states that it is a "system of psychic progrression" which was "primarily meant to define a rigid system of behavior". In short, it was a philosophy which was distinctly separate from the communal link. Nowadays, Khala is supposed to represent all of those things together. Either way, it has been stated that a basic Protoss can easily reject the communal link and the philosophical system without having to remove their cords. Also, it never says that anyone within the Khala can physically control the actions of another within the Khala, it only just allows "feelings". I guess this makes the "mind-controlling the Protoss through the Khala" a bit of a plot-hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    To me it sounds natural that having the nerve cords isn't enough to be in the Khala, but cutting them is enough to lose it. The Khala is a discipline. It's like learning to read. The brain of a illiterate adult is different from a literate one. Once you teach an adult to learn, his brain changes in many ways (including losing musical memory, apparently) and he can't ever unlearn reading. However, you could lobotomize him. So the Tal'Darim are "illiterate", their neurology is different of those who were trained in the Khala discipline; not to mention the Khala is not simply physical, but also psionic; it seems intuitive to me that if you are not ressonating within a psionic gestalt you're not affected by what happens within it.
    Would've been great if any of this explanation was used in the game. All we have in the game is that the Khala = nerve cords, hence problems with fridge logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    Well, all we know is from the wiki, isn't it?
    Yeah, but you said BW manual. Grad's reply is just the cherry on top.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    I disagree the views of the protagonist are the views of the audience OR the views the author wants the audience to have.
    So do I, but I think Blizz would disagree with your disagreement. For example, they clearly want you to believe the Kerrigan is good and appropriately redeemed.

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    Well, frankly I kind of think she has a point about the Tal'Darim and the Purifiers. Integrating both means a terrifying change to their identity.
    I'm not denying that she has a point. I'm saying that that point is frivoulous, petty and pointless in the current circumstance. Why worry about a possible future event that may not even happen when you aren't even sure that a future of any kind is even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    I was too surprised it was for nothing. I really thought we would be able to save the Khala in the end - we had Karax studying the Keystone in one side and Rohana probing Amon's mind in the other! But guess what... it didn't work. We can't save the Khala! They really tried, though... See, it had a narrative purpose. The name's "red herring"! I played half the game excited about the moment we'd save the Khala and when she cut her cords I was like OH WHAT THE FUCK BLIZZARD. 8/10, would get mad again.
    It's worse than that. The Khala isn't really extinguished since Protoss are born with nerve cords and can therefore form the Khala again. Not only that, but the one individual who knows about it/brought it about/could control it/manipulate it is no longer around, so there's no risk to it now. Such a silly thing Rohana is, isn't she?

    Quote Originally Posted by TcheQuevara View Post
    I think she's pretty heroic in carrying such burden and fighting so much evil all by herself. Paradoxically, her status as the last free mind in the Khala was outrageously lonely, and she was in company of her race again when she cut them off. As Gradius said, she was an alien from another time, among her own race. And it isn't selfish to try to preserve the metaphysical treasure the Khala was.
    I have no doubts about any of this. It's just a pity that what she is doing, is actually selfish and comes across as selfish within the context its found in. Would've been more affecting maybe if she had the "woe is me" approach but then again, people would start lousing on her being a sexist character what with her then being a typical damsel in distress instead. Can't win em all, I guess.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    You can't tell me that there isn't some random khalai with nerve cords stuck on some planet/asteroid out there somewhere in the universe where Amon could "hide".
    Sssshhh, don't give Blizz any more ideas to resurrect Amon!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Rohana agreeing to cut off her nerve cords and lose millennia worth of knowledge of billions of sapient beings is a massive loss. Nobody even tried to find another way. They could have put her in stasis or something, but they invalidated all of SC1's lore just to get across the message that "collectivism & old ways = bad". Gah. Now every single faction (khalai, dark templar, taldarim) uses void energy or whatever the alternative to the khala is. It's ironic that the game pushes such an anti-collectivism message down our throats but that now all the protoss factions are even further homogenized.
    Ah yes and I remember how people feared how the Zerg would be humanised. They really should have feared the Protoss being made into humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Then Amon. I don't understand why he didn't just go forth with his plan to hybridize zerg/protoss before thousands of years ago. He had Narud who lived in the real world. He could communicate straight with the Tal'Darim. He had primal zerg. Why waste time getting the Overmind to attack the protoss? Just make your hybrids right then and there before the Xel'Naga kill you, or even after they kill you since death doesn't matter.
    His whole reasoning still makes no sense. I'm not sure if he really wants to stop the cycle or perpetuate it even though we're told it's the former. If Amon really wanted to end the cycle and was the only one responsible for the uplifting of the Protoss and Zerg, why didn't he just extinguish them right there and then? Why bother helping them at all to become an eventual threat that led to his own existence? He wants to make Hybrids, I hear you say? Why, are they not but just a twisted continuation of the cycle that he so vehemently hates to the extent he wants to murder everything in the universe? Make up your frickin' mind, Amon!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Doesn't that go to show then that nerve cords don't necessarily give you access to the khala? The dark templar alienated themselves from their primal link just by not going into it.
    Yes, but that was in response to Tche establishing how important the cords were for the Khala (as LotV overtly does) since he said that the Nerazim need to cut their cords to avoid being subsumed by the Khala. All in all, what we have is that the cords are really important for the Khala, but somehow not only in specific circumstances that Blizz decline to explain. Clear as mud, that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Didn't she use her link with Amon to discover Amon's plans? I think it was the location of his body or some such. I forget. :P
    Lol. You mean the host body that was on Aiur? The planet that Artanis was going to go back to assault anyway after he had finished collecting as many friends he could find?
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  9. #29

    Default Re: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

    Aaaaugh! Tura used Textwall! It's super effective!

    *runs for the hills*


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Tche's deliberations on LotV Campaign

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Aaaaugh! Tura used Textwall! It's super effective!

    *runs for the hills*
    Yes, in time, all shall FEAR ME!!!
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

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