Page 55 of 62 FirstFirst ... 5455354555657 ... LastLast
Results 541 to 550 of 613

Thread: Random Thoughts Thread

  1. #541

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheliek View Post
    No but I'm hoping soon because I need one more marine model.
    I see. With the war chests, I too have tried putting them to use from the skins they've given us

  2. #542

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    What's better as a traditional, Zergy mythological creature-themed Brood name for Kerrigan's personal Brood: Gorgon Brood or Medusa Brood?
    Arcturus Mengsk did nothing wrong. Tarsonis is just a conspiracy theory.

  3. #543

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Medusa matches the hair tendrils. I'd save gorgon for a specifically scary brood.

  4. #544

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nolanstar View Post
    Medusa matches the hair tendrils. I'd save gorgon for a specifically scary brood.
    And what kind of a brood would that be?

  5. #545

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Nope. He probably knew coordinates but he doesn't know how to use a computer so therefore it's worthless to him. He might have garnered a general location from Xel'Naga memories, but space is far bigger than most people think.
    You don't absolutely need a computer to chart coordinates of a star in the galaxy (and that didn't stop the Overmind from using the protogenetic knowledge despite lacking a non-living genetic sequencer), because it's just a point in three dimensional space relative to a point of reference. That is just three numbers for axes X, Y and Z and can be tracked in your head, particularly if you're an idiot savant or genetically engineered brain or something similar. The Overmind had legions of deep space probes on the borders of Protoss space, and your Origins campaign makes the reasonable assumption that the zerg built deep space telescopes. There is no excuse for why the Overmind would not know the location of Aiur even if it started with outdated and/or inferior information.

    That the Overmind did not know Aiur's location was introduced in the game script because Metzen had turned the protoss into wimps and needed an excuse for why the zerg had not already consumed Aiur long ago. This is, of course, sabotaged by the fact that Metzen kept the part about the zerg sending probes to protoss space and made Aiur so easy to visit that Schezar raids it with ease. Even if the Overmind did not know the exact location of Aiur from the xel'naga, it knew the boundaries of protoss space by probing and it was powerful enough to simply steamroll protoss forces during its search (since the determinant was written out of the story unless you make ad hoc rationalizations).

    If people are really so OCD that they need to keep the plot point about the zerg not knowing Aiur's location despite having deep space telescopes and probes and xel'naga knowledge, etc... then I offer the following excuse based on what we know about the protoss: Aiur isn't just a single planet, but multiple planets connected by a circuit of wormholes and other semi-permanent spatial constructs. This gives the protoss an advantage against any force that cannot attack all planets within the circuit at once. So to invade Aiur without being quickly repelled, the zerg not only need to know the location of every world and attack in unison, but they need the defense codes to the gate network since conventional FTL cannot cover that distance fast enough. (I'm making a lot of assumptions about the limitations of FTL travel here in the interest of telling a story where distances actually matter.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Um, it says in the manual that the Zerg sent out scouts to find other worlds to conquer. This is how they found the Protoss. There was never any hint of evidence that the Overmind had any previous knowledge of how to get there.
    The manual states the zerg learned of Aiur through the xel'naga and sent lots of probes to their space. As I said above, even if the zerg did not start out knowing the exact location of Aiur, there is no excuse for them not to find it with their probes and telescopes and whatever. Especially with Metzen's contradictions about Aiur being the only protoss-held planet, being located in Koprulu and so easy to find/attack that a no-name pirate like Schezar raids it with ease.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The Khaydarin crystal was needed as part of its plan/ritual to be made manifest on Aiur. Why it needed to be made manifest is never made clear but based on what we know about it, it's history, it's motivations, Occam's razor would suggest that it would have something to do with achieving perfection, which in the current time and place would be assimilating the Protoss.
    That's an ad hoc rationalization. The real reason is that Metzen wrote himself into a corner by contradicting the manual multiple times and needed a deus ex machina.

    Using khaydarin for electronic warfare is a neat idea, and is integral to something like Enumerate, but that would never occur to Blizzard.

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    The very most the Overmind knew was a vague idea. Now, if you wanted to claim bad writing, you should have used the SC2 lore. If Amon created the Overmind, why the hell didn't he just tell the guy where Aiur was? Of course if you're to do that then you'd have to take into account what Zamara told Jake Ramsey: the Xel'Naga's work on the zerg wasn't finished before what happened at Zerus back then.

    As for the whole growing them in the lab in WoL, I'm not here to disagree on that, but you'd think the Xel'Naga would have ways to negate the regrowth process. They could have taken that into account when dealing with the swarm
    The xel'naga didn't have the time to do that and why would they? It's not like "destroy the khaydarin to keep the zerg from taking it" would be high on their to-do list when they are fighting for their lives. Chemistry isn't magic and there's no possible way to prevent the zerg from doing what they wanted. If the zerg knew what khaydarin was made of, such as from the xel'naga memories, they could make it from scratch. Or they could plunder it from the countless ruins that exist everywhere full of deus ex machinas. What else do you think that purple crystal in the briefing screen is? How do you think zerg made themselves compatible with khaydarin if they didn't have any?

    Ignoring the fact that the plot makes no sense because Metzen relies on nonsensical deus ex machinas for everything, the simplest explanation I can think of is that it was quicker and cheaper to harvest an existing formation rather than bring in zerg crystals. Dark templar tech makes mention of "argus" that is used in lieu of khaydarin IIRC, so it make sense that zerg crystals are not compatible and it would be too slow/expensive to re-calibrate compared to harvesting fresh crystals.

  6. #546

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    The manual states the zerg learned of Aiur through the xel'naga and sent lots of probes to their space. As I said above, even if the zerg did not start out knowing the exact location of Aiur, there is no excuse for them not to find it with their probes and telescopes and whatever.
    This is literally what I just said.


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  7. #547

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The xel'naga didn't have the time to do that and why would they? It's not like "destroy the khaydarin to keep the zerg from taking it" would be high on their to-do list when they are fighting for their lives. Chemistry isn't magic and there's no possible way to prevent the zerg from doing what they wanted. If the zerg knew what khaydarin was made of, such as from the xel'naga memories, they could make it from scratch. Or they could plunder it from the countless ruins that exist everywhere full of deus ex machinas. What else do you think that purple crystal in the briefing screen is? How do you think zerg made themselves compatible with khaydarin if they didn't have any?

    Ignoring the fact that the plot makes no sense because Metzen relies on nonsensical deus ex machinas for everything, the simplest explanation I can think of is that it was quicker and cheaper to harvest an existing formation rather than bring in zerg crystals. Dark templar tech makes mention of "argus" that is used in lieu of khaydarin IIRC, so it make sense that zerg crystals are not compatible and it would be too slow/expensive to re-calibrate compared to harvesting fresh crystals.
    This is where you can argue if keeping the Xel'Naga vague was a good thing or not. You really don't know what they were capable of achieving in a short time or not. As for making the crystals from scratch, remember that the SC1 manual only said the crystals were USED by the Xel'Naga. It didn't say the Xel'Naga CREATED them.

    You can argue with the whole Deus Ex Machina matter, but I believe you have to have SOME degree of it here.

  8. #548
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    9,988

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    You don't absolutely need a computer to chart coordinates of a star in the galaxy
    But it's likely that they did. You're the one claiming there's some sort of problem and/or plot hole, so the onus is on you to prove that they didn't.

    I could put you in a plane right now and give you the coordinates for France but you still wouldn't have a clue how to get there without using GPS despite it being just two numbers. <_<

    (and that didn't stop the Overmind from using the protogenetic knowledge despite lacking a non-living genetic sequencer)
    Doesn't mean it got the info from a computer. Literally everything the Overmind got was from memories. Nowhere did it say it got genomic sequences, it says it got "a clear understanding of their respective strengths and weaknesses."

    The core problem is you make up fanon or choose to interpret something in a way that contradicts the game. But instead of using the contradiction to rule out your own unworkable fan hypotheses, you instead use it as proof of "Metzen's crap writing".

    That is just three numbers for axes X, Y and Z and can be tracked in your head, particularly if you're an idiot savant or genetically engineered brain or something similar. The Overmind had legions of deep space probes on the borders of Protoss space, and your Origins campaign makes the reasonable assumption that the zerg built deep space telescopes. There is no excuse for why the Overmind would not know the location of Aiur even if it started with outdated and/or inferior information.
    Coordinates are stored as binary data and it's a completely logical assumption that nobody has those memorized or that Xel'Naga don't even see the actual numbers themselves, which could be compressed or encrypted. I don't even memorize phone numbers in my iphone anymore, and those are far less complex than spacial coordinates in our universe.

    I still don't think you fully grasp how big space is. Our closest star is 25 trillion miles away, and the Protoss command a good swath of the galaxy, which could include dozens if not hundreds of star clusters aka. billions of stars. Having "legions" of probes on the edge of protoss space is as good as having legions of ants trying to take down Godzilla. Saying "it's just three numbers" is as vast an under-simplification as saying "DNA is just 4 base pairs".

    That the Overmind did not know Aiur's location was introduced in the game script because Metzen had turned the protoss into wimps and needed an excuse for why the zerg had not already consumed Aiur long ago.
    They're not really wimps given that they won every space battle and only lost when using ground forces, but still killed the Overmind despite going through a civil war.

    If people are really so OCD that they need to keep the plot point about the zerg not knowing Aiur's location despite having deep space telescopes and probes and xel'naga knowledge, etc... then I offer the following excuse based on what we know about the protoss: Aiur isn't just a single planet, but multiple planets connected by a circuit of wormholes and other semi-permanent spatial constructs. This gives the protoss an advantage against any force that cannot attack all planets within the circuit at once. So to invade Aiur without being quickly repelled, the zerg not only need to know the location of every world and attack in unison, but they need the defense codes to the gate network since conventional FTL cannot cover that distance fast enough. (I'm making a lot of assumptions about the limitations of FTL travel here in the interest of telling a story where distances actually matter.)
    Obviously they can attack Aiur without being quickly repelled, since that's what happened in the game. Not sure what your point is here... Gateway travel isn't instantaneous.

    "your Origins campaign makes the reasonable assumption that the zerg built deep space telescopes"

    "there is no excuse for them not to find it with their probes and telescopes and whatever."
    I don't think you get telescopes either. They can't visualize every planet, let alone every star in the Milky Way, especially in the core where there is too much gas. Hubble can see distant galaxies, but Pluto is a literal blob because it takes up such a small percentage of the night sky. The telescope I hypothesized in Origins was based off the Kepler Telescope which hunts for exoplanets by looking at their transit in front of the parent star. Obviously this will only apply to a small percentage of planets (most of which have to be large) and gives you very little information. Good enough to find new planets, but trying to find a specific planet out of billions of stars and quadrillions of miles? Better off playing the lottery.

  9. #549

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That's an ad hoc rationalization.
    Yes, an ad hoc rationalisation that is justifiable on a Watsonian level with what information was available at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The real reason is that Metzen wrote himself into a corner by contradicting the manual multiple times and needed a deus ex machina.
    That's debatable. Sc1 never implies that infestation or assimilation is impossible. It may have been a potentially difficult and long task if Kerrigan's integration into the Swarm can be used as a yardstick, or it could've been easy. It could've already happened at some level or it didn't happen - we don't know because we aren't shown/told it in any definitive way. You can't say one way or another until it's been outright stated - which it only was in a post-Sc1 retcon. So, no need for perceived conspiracy theories about contradictions between manual and game story required!

    All we know at the time was that the Overmind is confident that it can integrate the Protoss into the Swarm from the get-go (and is the primary motivation for even taking the lengths it does to find them), the events depicted in Sc1 happen in quick succession and we don't see any signs of infested/assimilated Protoss. There can be many conclusions one can draw from this, with "infestation/assimilation of Protoss not actually being possible" (which can still be justified as a plot development revelation that the Overmind didn't expect) being a potential/viable outcome but not the only one nor the most obvious one to draw.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  10. #550

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarok View Post
    This is where you can argue if keeping the Xel'Naga vague was a good thing or not. You really don't know what they were capable of achieving in a short time or not. As for making the crystals from scratch, remember that the SC1 manual only said the crystals were USED by the Xel'Naga. It didn't say the Xel'Naga CREATED them.

    You can argue with the whole Deus Ex Machina matter, but I believe you have to have SOME degree of it here.
    The xel'naga are vague, yes. It's impossible to argue if they ever had computers or stored everything in their brains. For all we know their brains were khaydarin computers. None of that is important since they are just a plot device to explain how the protoss and zerg came to be and why they are destined to fight.

    It isn't important whether the zerg had khaydarin crystals or not. They were compatible and had purple crystals for some reason, but that isn't important here. They needed to harvest a formation on Aiur and plant it on the remains of a temple in order to summon the Overmind so that Tassadar could kill it. We can speculate forever on why all this stuff happened, but ultimately the reasons are pointless because the writers clearly didn't put that much thought into it and it's ultimately a deus ex machina so Tassadar can kill the Overmind. If we had a better writer who wasn't relying on deus ex machina, we might have gotten an explanation.

    No story needs a deus ex machina. A deus ex machina is basically the author stepping into the story and declaring that the big problem is resolved with a snap of the fingers. Deus ex machina is a hallmark of bad writing and every good author should avoid it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    But it's likely that they did. You're the one claiming there's some sort of problem and/or plot hole, so the onus is on you to prove that they didn't.

    I could put you in a plane right now and give you the coordinates for France but you still wouldn't have a clue how to get there without using GPS despite it being just two numbers. <_<


    Doesn't mean it got the info from a computer. Literally everything the Overmind got was from memories. Nowhere did it say it got genomic sequences, it says it got "a clear understanding of their respective strengths and weaknesses."

    The core problem is you make up fanon or choose to interpret something in a way that contradicts the game. But instead of using the contradiction to rule out your own unworkable fan hypotheses, you instead use it as proof of "Metzen's crap writing".


    Coordinates are stored as binary data and it's a completely logical assumption that nobody has those memorized or that Xel'Naga don't even see the actual numbers themselves, which could be compressed or encrypted. I don't even memorize phone numbers in my iphone anymore, and those are far less complex than spacial coordinates in our universe.

    I still don't think you fully grasp how big space is. Our closest star is 25 trillion miles away, and the Protoss command a good swath of the galaxy, which could include dozens if not hundreds of star clusters aka. billions of stars. Having "legions" of probes on the edge of protoss space is as good as having legions of ants trying to take down Godzilla. Saying "it's just three numbers" is as vast an under-simplification as saying "DNA is just 4 base pairs".


    They're not really wimps given that they won every space battle and only lost when using ground forces, but still killed the Overmind despite going through a civil war.


    Obviously they can attack Aiur without being quickly repelled, since that's what happened in the game. Not sure what your point is here... Gateway travel isn't instantaneous.


    I don't think you get telescopes either. They can't visualize every planet, let alone every star in the Milky Way, especially in the core where there is too much gas. Hubble can see distant galaxies, but Pluto is a literal blob because it takes up such a small percentage of the night sky. The telescope I hypothesized in Origins was based off the Kepler Telescope which hunts for exoplanets by looking at their transit in front of the parent star. Obviously this will only apply to a small percentage of planets (most of which have to be large) and gives you very little information. Good enough to find new planets, but trying to find a specific planet out of billions of stars and quadrillions of miles? Better off playing the lottery.
    The Overmind got "detailed genetic histories" from the xel'naga memories, but still assimilated the species listed. We can speculate forever on why, but ultimately it is not important. In any event, the zerg swarms are full of countless breeds created from countless races and they don't stand a chance against the protoss without the determinant.

    You cannot make assumptions about the relative military capabilities of the protoss and zerg based on the game's depiction of the invasion of Aiur because the game contradicts the manual. The manual states the zerg did not stand a chance without the determinant. It doesn't matter whether they are fighting in space, on the ground, or with endless reserves, they don't stand a chance. The game contradicts this, and not just in regards to game mechanics contradicting story. I don't care how many ad hoc rationalizations people make up, it is still a clear contradiction.

    The idea that the Overmind did not know where Aiur was comes from Metzen's game script, which is not consistent with the manual. Nowhere does the manual imply that the Overmind does not know the location of Aiur. But this plot point is ultimately irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the zerg do or don't know where Aiur is, because the Protoss have a massive galactic empire of hundreds maybe thousands of planets and fleets of solid gold death stars. According to simple critical thought it makes absolutely no sense that attacking just Aiur would make any sort of difference. Again, the manual states the zerg don't stand a chance without the determinant.

    The manual states it took the zerg 60 years to travel to Koprulu, but in game they visit Aiur more or less instantly. The games don't treat travel times seriously, but I do. In real life, travel times and availability of intel determine whether wars are won or lost. Anyone who is writing military fiction needs to understand that.

    The zerg cannot assault the protoss empire from one direction, hitting planets one at a time, and hope to win even with the determinant. Warp travel takes time and that gives the protoss time to prepare because the psionic matrix gives them real-time communication and instant teleportation across arbitrarily vast distances. If the zerg expect to survive, they need to blitzkrieg and to do that they need to hack the wormhole network to hit every protoss planet simultaneously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    Yes, an ad hoc rationalisation that is justifiable on a Watsonian level with what information was available at the time.



    That's debatable. Sc1 never implies that infestation or assimilation is impossible. It may have been a potentially difficult and long task if Kerrigan's integration into the Swarm can be used as a yardstick, or it could've been easy. It could've already happened at some level or it didn't happen - we don't know because we aren't shown/told it in any definitive way. You can't say one way or another until it's been outright stated - which it only was in a post-Sc1 retcon. So, no need for perceived conspiracy theories about contradictions between manual and game story required!

    All we know at the time was that the Overmind is confident that it can integrate the Protoss into the Swarm from the get-go (and is the primary motivation for even taking the lengths it does to find them), the events depicted in Sc1 happen in quick succession and we don't see any signs of infested/assimilated Protoss. There can be many conclusions one can draw from this, with "infestation/assimilation of Protoss not actually being possible" (which can still be justified as a plot development revelation that the Overmind didn't expect) being a potential/viable outcome but not the only one nor the most obvious one to draw.
    The question of protoss assimilation only came up because Metzen made a big deal of it and Blizzard was too stupid to keep themselves consistent. Like many things introduced outside the manual, it is better off ignored as Metzen's typical drivel.

    I'm plenty satisfied with assuming the zerg want to create their own archons and if nobody stops them then they will.

Similar Threads

  1. Random Chatter Thread
    By Nissa in forum Off-Topic Lounge
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 07-25-2015, 05:53 PM
  2. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-17-2013, 08:50 PM
  3. The Random Players Thread
    By Genopath in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 10-03-2012, 04:40 AM
  4. Random Campaign Thoughts
    By Gradius in forum StarCraft Universe Lore Discussion
    Replies: 67
    Last Post: 12-10-2010, 08:31 AM
  5. SC2: Random Thread
    By trace wm in forum StarCraft II Discussion
    Replies: 86
    Last Post: 10-29-2009, 07:41 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •