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Thread: Random Thoughts Thread

  1. #451

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    See, was that so hard? My major objection to your story is "Judicatress" -- the feminizing of titles is ridiculous in this world, and every effort should be made to stop it from spreading. "Judicator" is fine. Other than that, your ideas could certainly work, depending on the detail.


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  2. #452

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I take issue with the way Metzen twisted the rest of the universe into a simple spin-off of Rebel Yell at the expense of previously established and much more interesting plot points.
    At what exact point in Sc1 did this seemingly happen for you? Like I said, Sc1 works just fine as a story driven game even if you don't know what was established in the manual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The Koprulu sector was originally cut off from Earth effectively forever, but Metzen retconned that away even though it was completely unnecessary since the KMC and Umojans already existed to full that role if necessary.
    That's an issue/retcon from BW, not Sc1. Then again, given how weaksauce the Terrans actually are compared to the other two in the original Sc1, having Earth giving the Terrans a "booster shoot in the arm" was potentially needed to make Terrans even viable storywise for the "3 races battle each other" conceit to even continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The Zerg originally needed to make armies out of humans to fight the Protoss in order to justify Terran involvement, but this was forgotten and the Zerg twisted into something unrecognizable.
    The Zerg only really wanted the psionic potential of humans (not the humans themselves) to engage the Protoss on more equal footing. Once they got this (that this happens to be represented by Kerrigan is, objectively-speaking, inconsequential), the Terrans were not worth paying any more immediate attention to because they were effectively dead and their main goal, the Protoss, were within reach.

    It's never stated what form this psionic potential would or should take, so it's not objectively wrong if this happened to turn out to be an individual being. So, it wasn't really "forgotten" at all. It's just that you expected/wanted something in particular but didn't get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Making my own setting would end up being an obvious rip-off of SC and I would be criticized accordingly.
    I don't know why you would even care about others criticising you for something that you made up specifically to enjoy yourself. That's what fanfic is largely for.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  3. #453

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Making my own setting would end up being an obvious rip-off of SC and I would be criticized accordingly.
    Who cares? Not like SC isn't an obvious rip off of WH40k anyways. Some of the stuff I've seen you come up with are actually pretty cool and have potential. I'm sure you could come up with an interesting setting instead of bitching at Metzen

  4. #454
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
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    Yeah it’d be cool to have someone who cares about consistency to start fresh with a new universe.

  5. #455

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    See, was that so hard? My major objection to your story is "Judicatress" -- the feminizing of titles is ridiculous in this world, and every effort should be made to stop it from spreading. "Judicator" is fine. Other than that, your ideas could certainly work, depending on the detail.
    What we were we arguing about again? Did you criticize Enumerate for not inspiring you or something? Could you explain that in more detail or maybe do the same writing prompt exercise I did?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    At what exact point in Sc1 did this seemingly happen for you? Like I said, Sc1 works just fine as a story driven game even if you don't know what was established in the manual.
    Rebel Yell has the strongest writing, even if it is rushed. Overmind and The Fall have a number of narrative issues, which I am pretty sure I mentioned before in other posts. In any case, there are a few commentaries that we can read which critique the writing and note inconsistencies:


    The samods commentary is straightforward but has a few interesting highlights here and there. The following quotes highlight the main problem with the Overmind narrative: Kerry is given the same importance as the determinant in the manual, but her contributions are ultimately negligible. That is anticlimactic.

    Quote Originally Posted by samods.org
    Comment: It may not be obvious, but the prize of the zerg, Kerrigan, was the Swarm’s objective in the Terran sector all along. It seems that almost as soon as they acquired her then they left and now the Overmind has brought them to Char so that she can be reborn. Is her assimilation into the Swarm really that important? It’s meant to lead to ‘diversity’ among the zerg, as the Overmind later explains to Zasz, which will only strengthen them – likely for the purpose of defeating the Protoss.
    Quote Originally Posted by samods.org
    Comment: The Overmind was nurtured by the Xel’naga, he lead the zerg from their beginning and assimilated their own creators, spread across the galaxy, absorbed dozens of other species and grew to billions of creatures ... and Kerrigan is his ‘greatest creation’? Hmm. The build up to Kerrigan is very big and I suppose it’s all for the purposes of heightening the drama and morphing her character.
    Quote Originally Posted by samods.org
    Comment: Raynor’s last words in the Terran campaign involved regret for letting Kerrigan go and it’s clear that he still has them. He has taken the few men he has left in the loose hope of finding her (How do you even convince people to do that? “Guys, I’ve got a hunch my ex-flame is not dead after being abandoned on a space platform of zerg but is alive on a volcanic world now inhabited by the zerg – want to come with me?”). Maybe he doesn’t believe that he has much left in life.
    Quote Originally Posted by samods.org
    Comment: This reinforces the importance of Kerrigan, that her assimilation is the last component for the Overmind to utterly destroy the Protoss. Perhaps it’s that the drone-like zerg can’t effectively fight the Protoss, or her psychic powers will be of great use in the eventual invasion of Aiur ... but in a force composed of billions of creatures, what difference can that be?

    Again, maybe it’s not intended, but that last line is slightly untrue – Kerrigan doesn’t lead the Overmind’s minions to victory over the Protoss, at least on Aiur as she misses the invasion completely. It is true that the Protoss aren’t expecting a highly powerful psychic individual, but that still doesn’t seem like she’s as important as characters state.
    The spacebattles commentary is unforgiving, but does have a lot of interesting discussion about the themes of Starcraft which could have been in the hands of better writers. Below it criticizes the inclusion of Kerry and muses on better alternatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by spacebattles.com
    It leaves me thinking that Kerrigan was under-utilised, actually. The manual suggests that Kerrigan was somehow vital to the Overmind finding a way to counter the protoss' psionic abilities, and she's not. She doesn't even participate in the invasion of Aiur. All she actually did was bumble around recklessly. On top of this, there's really no narrative closure for her. She became a zerg, she hunted protoss on Char, but there's no real sense of her as an evolving character. She had an arc in the Terran campaign, but here she just acts totally unlike her Terran self, is useless, and then is left behind once the plot decides there are more important things to be getting on with. What was the point of the entire Kerrigan-gets-infested subplot? Her character is not used in an interesting way, as her personality change is not explored. She just becomes a one-note ranting villain. Its effect on other characters isn't really explored either. You'd think it would be pretty important to Raynor, but after this Raynor barely appears. He shows up a bit as a supporting character in the protoss campaign, but that's all.​
    Quote Originally Posted by spacebattles.com
    Well, I don't know about Dehaka personally, but the zerg in general do seem to think the protoss lack something. Presumably this is the zerg purity of essence. (Completely different use of the word 'essence' to what Dehaka means when he says it, to be clear.) I suspect that only the most advanced and intelligent zerg - the Overmind, the cerebrates, etc. - would be capable of comprehending this. The protoss are not united in a singular, perfect will. The zerg Swarm is a single organism: many forms, but one mind, one will, one essence. From the zerg perspective, the protoss have sort of started groping their way towards purity of essence, through the Khala, but the Khala is insufficient. Individual protoss can still disagree, rebel, and so on. That weakens them.

    Yet... it's interesting because by creating Kerrigan, the Overmind seemed to tacitly admit that purity of essence isn't enough. Some diversity of essence can help strengthen the Swarm as a whole. Kerrigan's broodmothers have a similar philosophy: they were supposed to fight each other, and explore different tactical approaches. What the Overmind must have wanted to do was find some way to combine all the strengths of diversity (different ideas, creativity, etc.) with all the strengths of unity (no rebellion, perfect coordination, etc.).

    That might just have been an impossible task. And it's the central theme of Starcraft again! Order versus individualism.
    Quote Originally Posted by spacebattles.org
    I guess I don't hate this twist with as much passion as I once did, but I do think it could have been done much better. If I were doing it, I'd completely remove the bit about the Overmind raging within its own mind and about it consciously creating the Queen of Blades as a weapon against the Xel'Naga. Instead, what I'd emphasise is that while the Overmind had free will, it used that will to pursue directives that had been encoded into it by its creators. Consume. Eradicate. Evolve. Become the perfect species. That was the obsession of the Xel'Naga, and the Fallen One did play a role in ensuring that the Overmind would have the goals it did, and walk the path it did.

    Then I'd point out that the Overmind was genuinely good at this. It was created to become the supreme being. That was why it was so deific in its manner in Starcraft, and why it was so desperate to annihilate the protoss. But the Overmind might have been better at its task than even the Fallen One expected. The Overmind realised the limitations of its own mind, and it knew that constantly adapting and incorporating new ideas and new modes of thought into itself was essential for its long-term evolution. The protoss were also made/modified by the Xel'Naga. Could there be certain weakness - certain evolutionary flaws - in the Xel'Naga psyche? Therefore the Overmind made Kerrigan into the Queen of Blades, to provide another perspective. Perhaps something of a human personality might perceive something the Swarm might not have otherwise. This is what the zerg do. They assimilate as many perspectives, as many ideas, as many personalities as possible, and the Overmind deliberately left a great deal of Kerrigan intact after the transformation. This diversity would strengthen the Swarm. (As the Overmind said of her, "The greatness of her spirit has been left to her; that the Swarm might benefit from her fierce example.")

    So by trying to strengthen the Swarm in this way, the Overmind might - unwittingly - have created a means by which the Swarm can resist the influence of the Fallen One. It was not a conscious decision to create a weapon to free the zerg; but it did create an avenue by which the zerg could be freed. Through the Queen of Blades - that is, an organism that a) is carefully designed for the purpose of controlling and commanding zerg but b) does not have a zerg psyche - there is a chance to turn the zerg against their mutual enemy.

    I think the advantage of this approach is that while you get the same conclusion (the zerg can be used to help us, Kerrigan must live if we're to save the universe), the plot of Starcraft isn't undermined as much. I feel that my take on Kerrigan still fits with all the clues we had in the first game, and it means the Overmind is still a truly threatening force. For all we know, if the Overmind had won and assimilated all the protoss on Aiur, through having Kerrigan's perspective as well, it might have been able to turn against the hybrid with a chance of victory. So the Overmind had to die to save the universe, and the final battle of the original Starcraft remains just as important and as apocalyptic as it seemed at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That's an issue/retcon from BW, not Sc1. Then again, given how weaksauce the Terrans actually are compared to the other two in the original Sc1, having Earth giving the Terrans a "booster shoot in the arm" was potentially needed to make Terrans even viable storywise for the "3 races battle each other" conceit to even continue.
    There are other ways that could have been handled. Like how Enumerate just foisted Project Black Flag onto the Umojans.



    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    The Zerg only really wanted the psionic potential of humans (not the humans themselves) to engage the Protoss on more equal footing. Once they got this (that this happens to be represented by Kerrigan is, objectively-speaking, inconsequential), the Terrans were not worth paying any more immediate attention to because they were effectively dead and their main goal, the Protoss, were within reach.
    That was never explained in the game itself, but an ad hoc explanation devised by fans. Metzen himself clearly discarded the determinant halfway through production in favor of Kerry being Zerg Jesus fighting the evil xel'naga.

    You are right that we cannot make any accurate predictions about how the Zerg would have utilized human psychic potential. We know not what such weapons would have entailed besides parity with the Protoss, so as this point it is a matter of game mechanics. Judging by how they dealt with other species, they might have spawned new breeds with a Terran core genus. Or any number of other things. The Zerg are really creative.

    It makes no sense to forget the Terrans after Rebel Yell when the entire premise of the franchise was contrived to include them, but that's Metzen for you. The original manual stated that the Zerg exterminated species which offered nothing to them. That would justify the Zerg maintaining a presence in K-sec to finish off the survivors.

    Ultimately, Starcraft suffers from trying to force too much into too short a runtime. Thirty missions across three campaigns is nowhere near enough to showcase a galactic war. That's the sort of thing you would make dozens of campaigns for. Hence, why I found Enumerate's portrayal of the Terran/Zerg War to be so much more interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    It's never stated what form this psionic potential would or should take, so it's not objectively wrong if this happened to turn out to be an individual being. So, it wasn't really "forgotten" at all. It's just that you expected/wanted something in particular but didn't get it.
    That's not what I expected/wanted, that's what the manual set up for us to expect based on the details we were given. Metzen ignored that and his questionable writing choice contradicts how the Zerg were previously explained to behave and to be different from Terrans and Protoss. They don't have war heroes or individuals on the front lines, they have armies of engineered warrior beasts that they throw at their enemies in endless hordes. They specialize their breeds to serve specific roles like commanding, fighting, harvesting, etc separately.

    Kerry represents a de-evolution of what the Zerg were. She retains an individual personality, she talks to cerebrates like an equal, she fights on the front lines, she gets to decide what battles to fight, etc.

    The way the manual explained the Zerg, Kerry is not remotely what you could have expected. Firstly, the Zerg would have created an army of psychic terranlings (or what have you) rather than one because that's what they do for everything else. Secondly, being connected to the hive mind would completely alter their thoughts and behavior regardless of any memories retained from their former lives.

    If someone who actually respected the Zerg's uniqueness was at the helm, then the Kerry plot line would have played out completely differently. For the purpose of argument let's assume that Kerry is used as a viewpoint character to show the audience how infestation affects people. The mental changes she would undergo would be immense: she is connected to the thoughts and feelings of millions of other creatures, feeling them as intimately as her own. Her original personality would be subsumed by this, and she would think and behave like a zerg. If she ever talks to others, it would only be as a mouthpiece for the hive mind like Locutus of Borg.

    Basically, she would behave exactly like the infested Terran protagonist from the Annihilation custom campaign. Honestly, that's the best portrayal of an infested Terran commander I have ever seen. He doesn't treat the Zerg like tools for his own use, he treats them like a family he must protect at all costs. In fact, he seems to behave more like an exposition fairy for the Zerg story line than an actual commander.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I don't know why you would even care about others criticising you for something that you made up specifically to enjoy yourself. That's what fanfic is largely for.
    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    Who cares? Not like SC isn't an obvious rip off of WH40k anyways. Some of the stuff I've seen you come up with are actually pretty cool and have potential. I'm sure you could come up with an interesting setting instead of bitching at Metzen
    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Yeah it’d be cool to have someone who cares about consistency to start fresh with a new universe.
    Thanks for the vote of confidence. You guys are right. So I opened a thread to discuss just that if you have not seen it already.

  6. #456

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Yeah it’d be cool to have someone who cares about consistency to start fresh with a new universe.
    Tell me something Gradius, because I still occasionally speak to authors for SC fanfics and they too go about for consistency, would you really care if the SC2 consistency was chosen?

  7. #457

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    In any case, there are a few commentaries that we can read which critique the writing and note inconsistencies:
    While I appreciate their respective takes on the story and you for showing them, there's no need since I'm very well aware of its weaknesses and that this doesn't actually answer the question I initially posed to your response. I do suspect that you feel the other campaigns in Sc1 (not talking about BW or Sc2) are a "spin-off" from Rebel Yell because they reuse some of the characters in that as glorified cameos later on, yes? You haven't specified why that's technically bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The samods commentary is straightforward but has a few interesting highlights here and there. The following quotes highlight the main problem with the Overmind narrative: Kerry is given the same importance as the determinant in the manual, but her contributions are ultimately negligible. That is anticlimactic.
    It is indeed anticlimactic but, in a way, isn't this exactly what you really want? You've been railing about how BW and Sc2 are so enamoured with these few select characters that it's at the detriment to the story/narrative. Isn't it great then that Kerrigan is not really as special as she's made out to be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The spacebattles commentary is unforgiving, but does have a lot of interesting discussion about the themes of Starcraft which could have been in the hands of better writers. Below it criticizes the inclusion of Kerry and muses on better alternatives.
    It's kinda curious that whilst I agree mostly with this guys commentary, I sometimes wonder how someone who plays the Zerg campaign without ever knowing/reading the manual interprets the focus on Kerrigan in that campaign because it's never actually stated in the game that the exact purpose of Kerrigan is as the final determinant in its eventual conflict against the Protoss or that it even needs a "determinant" for the Protoss. Without that prior knowledge, the player is left to conclude that the Overmind just has some fascination with incorporating something it feels is powerful into its fold. It just wants something powerful, not necessarily need.

    This doesn't necessarily mean though, that for those who did read the manual, that the determinant idea was wilfully "forgotten" since that concept informs and explains the Overmind's fascination with Kerrigan via inference. More importantly, it's never stated that the "determinant" is instrumental/an objective requirement in order for the Overmind to actually beat the Protoss, but rather that it's just what the Overmind feels that this is so. That latter point is important because it helps offer an out for why Kerrigan is seemingly dumped from the rest of the campaign. That reason is that the Overmind was not actually needing a determinant to fight the Protoss, it merely (albeit intensely) wanted one to assuage its fear of fighting them. Once it achieved that/got what it wanted (which was right from the start of the Zerg campaign), it was unburdened and free to take any action (including an eventual ballsy invasion attempt on Aiur) because it felt it was untouchable.

    In this context, the concept of the determinant is actually a red herring. It (and by association, Kerrigan) is, in reality and objectively, meaningless. Whilst it was implied as something that would give the Zerg total victory, it actually is the reason for why the Zerg lost. When you look at Sc1's story as a whole and try to figure out how the Zerg lost, it traces all the way back to the Overmind's decision to seek out a determinant against the Protoss. Without it, the sequence of events that was Sc1 and that which culminated eventually into the Overminds death, would not have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    There are other ways that could have been handled. Like how Enumerate just foisted Project Black Flag onto the Umojans.
    That wouldn't be plausible. The original scope of the Terran presence was much smaller than it is in later entries and it explicitly states that the Terran resistance was meager with 9 out of 13 worlds destroyed at the start of the Overmind campaign. One could argue that this may have just referred to Confederate holdings but that just makes it more implausible to have the Umojans take centre stage as the UED later on because the Umojans are comparatively much smaller and not as heavily militarised like the Confeds. That and the Confederates were the most powerful Terran faction at the time who knew more about the Zerg than they let on, yet they still had their arses handed to them...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That was never explained in the game itself, but an ad hoc explanation devised by fans.
    What are you talking about? It's not a "fan explanation", it's the actual storyline of Sc1. It is explicit that once the Zerg found what it came for, it just abandoned the Terran worlds and focused instead on the Protoss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Judging by how they dealt with other species, they might have spawned new breeds with a Terran core genus. Or any number of other things. The Zerg are really creative.
    I dunno, I kinda thought the Zerg/Overmind found the Terrans inferior. They wouldn't have bothered with them if they didn't have the psionic potential the Overmind wanted from them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    It makes no sense to forget the Terrans after Rebel Yell when the entire premise of the franchise was contrived to include them, but that's Metzen for you. The original manual stated that the Zerg exterminated species which offered nothing to them. That would justify the Zerg maintaining a presence in K-sec to finish off the survivors.
    It does make some sense to ditch them after Rebel Yell because the Zerg fulfilled the conceit of getting its determinant - you know, the only reason why the Terrans are even narratively "important" at all. Sure, you could have the Zerg remain to mop up Terrans but that's narratively inert (like I said before, the Terrans are weak and crippled beyond all measure) and not the real focus for the Zerg (it's the Protoss).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That's not what I expected/wanted, that's what the manual set up for us to expect based on the details we were given.
    Thing is, there are no details about what the determinant should/would turn out to be. You only have preconceived notions and expectations... which is not what the manual lays out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Kerry represents a de-evolution of what the Zerg were. She retains an individual personality, she talks to cerebrates like an equal, she fights on the front lines, she gets to decide what battles to fight, etc.
    How is this a devolution when she's always never out of the Overmind's control - like any and all other Zerg?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The way the manual explained the Zerg, Kerry is not remotely what you could have expected. Firstly, the Zerg would have created an army of psychic terranlings (or what have you) rather than one because that's what they do for everything else. Secondly, being connected to the hive mind would completely alter their thoughts and behavior regardless of any memories retained from their former lives.
    There's nothing to say that the first point wouldn't have eventually happened it's just the time period in which the story being told over was relatively short. Afterall, Kerrigan was only infested not assimilated. As to the second point, the Overmind explicitly and exclusively gave her some privileges but also exposits that she is under its control like all other Zerg. The Overmind is the only Zerg character to really do as it pleases, so you can hardly blame it for making a decision to give Kerrigan special treatment if that's what it wanted to do. It's not "stupid" just because you can't fathom why it would do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    If someone who actually respected the Zerg's uniqueness was at the helm, then the Kerry plot line would have played out completely differently. For the purpose of argument let's assume that Kerry is used as a viewpoint character to show the audience how infestation affects people. The mental changes she would undergo would be immense: she is connected to the thoughts and feelings of millions of other creatures, feeling them as intimately as her own. Her original personality would be subsumed by this, and she would think and behave like a zerg. If she ever talks to others, it would only be as a mouthpiece for the hive mind like Locutus of Borg.
    So, essentially just like any other ordinary infested Terran then? Wouldn't be much of a viewpoint character...
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  8. #458

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Typing on my phone, forgive format.
    What are you talking about? It's not a "fan explanation", it's the actual storyline of Sc1. It is explicit that once the Zerg found what it came for, it just abandoned the Terran worlds and focused instead on the Protoss.
    I mean the theories and attempts at reconciling the determinant with Metzen's retcons. It is clear that he retconned the determinant partway through development of the game. That or he just forget the significance. The Zerg campaign feels largely pointless as a result, since the only relevant plot point is the foreshadowing of the Overmind's defeat. I don't know about you, but I find that writing deeply unsatisfactory.

    Kerry is Metzen's work, uniquely. Anyone else who had to work from the manual would probably write new units with terran core genus. Would you contest that? What would you have done differently?

  9. #459

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    What we were we arguing about again? Did you criticize Enumerate for not inspiring you or something? Could you explain that in more detail or maybe do the same writing prompt exercise I did?
    Not everything has to be an argument, but all the arguing has drained my desire to talk about this sort of thing. Anyway, my base point behind it all is that if you want us to care about Enumerate, you should make Enumerate look fun, rather than just accuse us of being wrong when we don't care.


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  10. #460

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Look, different opinions on different things is normal. You love enumerate, not everyone does. You shared it with us and while its interesting and has pathed the way for some very interesting discussions and concepts (IE the current clone thread) realize that not everyone has to like it as much as you do. We're not attacking you for liking it, just cool a bit when it comes to enforcing anyone complaining about it.

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