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Thread: Random Thoughts Thread

  1. #441

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Mislag, you're holding on too tightly to Enumerate. Relax, okay? Also, who's focusing "all their thoughts" on Mengsk, Raynor, and Kerri? Me, the Aldaris fangirl? As for everybody else, they're usually going on about plot issues, backstory/technology stuff, or carriers. I'll testify to everybody here talking about other things most of the time. Usually when we mention those three, it's only to say how they were ruined in SC2. Nobody's that focused on them, besides perhaps Blizzard.

    Seriously, Mislag. One of the reasons I have such trouble with your perspective is that you mention getting rid of three characters with tons of impact on the plot. All of your descriptions talk about concepts, not characters doing specific things. Who are your characters? What are their names? What are they doing?


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  2. #442

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    That is a complete misrepresentation of my views.
    I think not. You think the "galaxy is too small" because of the "apparent" single-minded focus on the very few characters that were shown in Sc1.

    To me Sc1 has always been somewhat small in scope anyway since, afterall, the premise is about 3 specific groups, out of all the possible groups that could otherwise exist, coming into a flashpoint. The story in Sc1 does not actually break that premise as you so vehemently insist it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    You guys are blinded by nostalgia and cannot see the huge flaws in Metzen's writing.
    Please don't generalise. Hardcore Sc2 defenders resorted to very similar tactics to deflect arguments and lessened their positions by doing so.

    I see the flaws but the Sc1 story is fine and memorable with them as they are. What's important is that the story is more memorable for the impact it has rather than for its flaws and conceits. That's all you can really ask for.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  3. #443

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    and cannot see the huge flaws in Metzen's writing.
    lol what? No one here, even Rag, is blind to the fact that Metzen's writing is flawed.

  4. #444

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Mislag, you're holding on too tightly to Enumerate. Relax, okay? Also, who's focusing "all their thoughts" on Mengsk, Raynor, and Kerri? Me, the Aldaris fangirl? As for everybody else, they're usually going on about plot issues, backstory/technology stuff, or carriers. I'll testify to everybody here talking about other things most of the time. Usually when we mention those three, it's only to say how they were ruined in SC2. Nobody's that focused on them, besides perhaps Blizzard.
    I must be suffering from paranoid delusions. That is the only way I can imagine that I say what I say if we all supposedly hold essentially the same basic views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    Seriously, Mislag. One of the reasons I have such trouble with your perspective is that you mention getting rid of three characters with tons of impact on the plot. All of your descriptions talk about concepts, not characters doing specific things. Who are your characters? What are their names? What are they doing?
    You are unfairly privileging those characters over the billions of others that exist in the setting. They have impact on the plot of Rebel Yell and its spin-offs, which is not the same as Starcraft as a whole... or at least it should not have been. Blizzard literally warped the universe around them like black hole mary sues. After the conclusion of Rebel Yell those characters are written as if they came from an epic fantasy novel, not a more grounded military science fiction setting.

    As for all the other characters that could be followed instead, the unofficial Starcraft wiki has lists of dozens and dozens of characters with their own stories separate from the cast of Rebel Yell. Merdith Jernic, Jack Frost, Zargil, Andinunn, Ulrezaj, and many others who have been forgotten. Their stories do not matter if Raynor, Mengsk and Kerry are literally mythic heroes and villains who warp the narrative of the entire galaxy around themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    All of your descriptions talk about concepts, not characters doing specific things. Who are your characters? What are their names? What are they doing?
    I could say the same to you. On one hand I cannot muster the effort to write my own characters if they are always overshadowed by the legendary cast of Rebel Yell. On the other hand I am still busy writing my first custom campaign and I cannot answer your questions on the spot, particularly if I don't want to spoil anything.

    Let take a few minutes to force some original ideas out... and I can't do it. It is difficult to answer those questions without weeks of preparation. I mean, if you had to write the plot of Starcraft after Rebel Yell instead of Metzen, would you have taken the same path Metzen did given what the manual explained about the backstory? There is nothing in the manual to suggest that the Zerg would do anything less than make armies of assimilated terrans given what was explained about their other units. Even the concept of feral or renegade Zerg had no foreshadowing in the manual aside from the Terrans and Protoss both having internecine strife that was not mirrored by the Zerg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I think not. You think the "galaxy is too small" because of the "apparent" single-minded focus on the very few characters that were shown in Sc1.

    To me Sc1 has always been somewhat small in scope anyway since, afterall, the premise is about 3 specific groups, out of all the possible groups that could otherwise exist, coming into a flashpoint. The story in Sc1 does not actually break that premise as you so vehemently insist it does.
    Starcraft was originally presented as a mostly grounded military science fiction setting, but Metzen's plots are straight out of an epic fantasy novel. The single-minded focus is not apparent, it is explicit: the canon campaign has always been presented as the be-all-end-all of the story with nothing else mattering. Insurrection does a much better job at presenting a flashpoint like you suggested, since it takes place on a single planet so the characters meeting up in different campaigns feels organic since they were fighting on the same battlefields.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I see the flaws but the Sc1 story is fine and memorable with them as they are. What's important is that the story is more memorable for the impact it has rather than for its flaws and conceits. That's all you can really ask for.
    The story is paper thin and exists as an excuse to justify the combat. All the so-called memorability, I suspect, is a combination of impressionable childhood nostalgia and the audience mentally filling in the blanks that weren't explained in the game. I did not find the story particularly memorable when I played as an adult, and that was with the improved graphics of the Mass Recall mod. The moral ambiguity and fairly believable scale of Rebel Yell set it apart from the typical bland hero-saves-world plots of modern games, but the plot was still fairly light and rushed. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having an excuse for a plot and especially for an RTS, as I thought one of the biggest strengths of Rebel Yell was its simplistic logical A-to-B progression and general consistency, but please do not pretend there is anything more to it than there is.
    I think Starcraft needs rebooting. See "Enumerate" for details (links: timeline, full document, original forum thread).

  5. #445

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    I must be suffering from paranoid delusions. That is the only way I can imagine that I say what I say if we all supposedly hold essentially the same basic views.
    ...wut? Can you explain that in english?

    You are unfairly privileging those characters over the billions of others that exist in the setting.
    Again, WHO is privileging them? Me? The Aldaris fangirl? I haven't written a fanfiction with these three as major characters in years. I've been writing Aldaris, and before that was in the Mega Man realm. Also, so what if someone wants to write about Kerrigan? They are entitled to, if they wish.

    I am in no way privileging them. All I have done is state that they are major characters of the Starcraft story. This is an objective fact. If Blizzard has emphasized them, and I acknowledge this, I am merely stating a fact, not condoning or criticizing it.

    I could say the same to you. On one hand I cannot muster the effort to write my own characters if they are always overshadowed by the legendary cast of Rebel Yell. On the other hand I am still busy writing my first custom campaign and I cannot answer your questions on the spot, particularly if I don't want to spoil anything.
    If you're going to promote a concept, you're the one who has to sell it to us. I wasn't criticizing you talking of concepts in general, but of only stating the concepts of Enumerate, without how they can be used.

    And all you had to do was say that your thing is in the works and you don't want to spoil it. Really, all I wanted it some true dialogue about characters.


    Let take a few minutes to force some original ideas out... and I can't do it. It is difficult to answer those questions without weeks of preparation. I mean, if you had to write the plot of Starcraft after Rebel Yell instead of Metzen, would you have taken the same path Metzen did given what the manual explained about the backstory? There is nothing in the manual to suggest that the Zerg would do anything less than make armies of assimilated terrans given what was explained about their other units. Even the concept of feral or renegade Zerg had no foreshadowing in the manual aside from the Terrans and Protoss both having internecine strife that was not mirrored by the Zerg.
    I'm not asking you to bring up original ideas in two minutes, I'm asking you to refer to ways Enumerate has already sparked your imagination. The value of Enumerate depends upon its ability to open up new ideas in people's minds.

    I'm not asking you to restate the entire campaign, either. Literally all I wanted was something like "Oh, well, since Mengsk isn't around, I would have this character do such and such, and the Terrans be led by a character I created. I can't really talk about it because it would spoil what I'm working on right now."

    Really. I don't want confrontation, just conversation. Talk about things that make you happy instead of trying to prove yourself. You have nothing to prove to a random stranger on the internet.


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  6. #446

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    ...wut? Can you explain that in english?



    Again, WHO is privileging them? Me? The Aldaris fangirl? I haven't written a fanfiction with these three as major characters in years. I've been writing Aldaris, and before that was in the Mega Man realm. Also, so what if someone wants to write about Kerrigan? They are entitled to, if they wish.

    I am in no way privileging them. All I have done is state that they are major characters of the Starcraft story. This is an objective fact. If Blizzard has emphasized them, and I acknowledge this, I am merely stating a fact, not condoning or criticizing it.



    If you're going to promote a concept, you're the one who has to sell it to us. I wasn't criticizing you talking of concepts in general, but of only stating the concepts of Enumerate, without how they can be used.

    And all you had to do was say that your thing is in the works and you don't want to spoil it. Really, all I wanted it some true dialogue about characters.




    I'm not asking you to bring up original ideas in two minutes, I'm asking you to refer to ways Enumerate has already sparked your imagination. The value of Enumerate depends upon its ability to open up new ideas in people's minds.

    I'm not asking you to restate the entire campaign, either. Literally all I wanted was something like "Oh, well, since Mengsk isn't around, I would have this character do such and such, and the Terrans be led by a character I created. I can't really talk about it because it would spoil what I'm working on right now."

    Really. I don't want confrontation, just conversation. Talk about things that make you happy instead of trying to prove yourself. You have nothing to prove to a random stranger on the internet.
    I thought I was doing that in the Enumerate thread... Did you ever read the timeline? It explains these things in just a dozen pages.

    By era:

    Prelude to War:

    Protoss watchers fights Zerg vanguard in Koprulu

    Confederacy performs experiments

    Zerg infestors invade Terran colonies

    Great War

    Zerg invade in mass

    Protoss glass worlds

    Protoss fleet splits between purifiers and Terran sympathizers

    Terrans defend themselves

    Nerazim fight Zerg and help Terrans

    Protoss/Zerg War

    Zerg deploy assimilated Terrans against Protoss

    Zerg invade khala worlds to harvest khydarin crystals

    Zerg invade nerazim safe houses

    Forces uncover archaeological ruins of first age protoss

    Zerg fight feral zerg

    And that's off the top of my head.

  7. #447

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    No. Not "Terrans defend selves." "Sergeant Slain leads a group of people to a colony to escape..."

    In other words, more than just boring, generic sentences that anyone could come up with.


    "Seeing Fenix once more perplexes me. I feel sadness, when I should feel joy."
    - Artanis.

  8. #448

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich_bird View Post
    lol what? No one here, even Rag, is blind to the fact that Metzen's writing is flawed.
    There were plenty who felt he didn't really bother reading the SC1 manual, and rather just assumed everyone forgot everything written in there, so he could make up whatever he wanted for the SC2 lore. It's certainly been a challenge for me to try to combine the 2 lores together for my future SC fic.

  9. #449

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    Starcraft was originally presented as a mostly grounded military science fiction setting
    I think you meant to say the Starcraft manual was depicting this. Well, guess what? Some people can still enjoy the game story, find it compelling and "real" without the manual/backstory. So, something obviously works for the game's story, even when it's on its own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The single-minded focus is not apparent, it is explicit: the canon campaign has always been presented as the be-all-end-all of the story with nothing else mattering.
    So... now you're blaming the story for being focused/having direction, or rather, having a particular focus/direction that you just don't prefer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mislagnissa View Post
    The story is paper thin and exists as an excuse to justify the combat. All the so-called memorability, I suspect, is a combination of impressionable childhood nostalgia and the audience mentally filling in the blanks that weren't explained in the game. I did not find the story particularly memorable when I played as an adult, and that was with the improved graphics of the Mass Recall mod. The moral ambiguity and fairly believable scale of Rebel Yell set it apart from the typical bland hero-saves-world plots of modern games, but the plot was still fairly light and rushed. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having an excuse for a plot and especially for an RTS, as I thought one of the biggest strengths of Rebel Yell was its simplistic logical A-to-B progression and general consistency, but please do not pretend there is anything more to it than there is.
    And yet it endures/is still talked about after 2 decades... and here of all places, a site dedicated to the original game lore. You think anyone will be nostalgic and readily filling in gaps mentally that weren't explained for Sc2 in a decades time?

    I find the Sc1 story is robust because of its applicability. It supports multiple and varying interpretations without really advocating a particular position and even in spite of any latent authorial intent that maybe present. This engages an audience member since it allows them to invest themselves and their thoughts into the story as its being told. It's partly why I can accept/tolerate your specific opinions on it because they tell me more about you/how you interpret things than actually anything else to do with the story. It's kind of peculiar in a way with you though, since you clearly are quite cynical and vhemently disapproving of Sc1 and its foundations - it makes one wonder why you clamour on about making it great again when there's (apparently to you at any rate) not really that much that is great about it to begin with. I would've thought you'd just enjoy some other fictional universe or completely make one up by now...
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  10. #450

    Default Re: Random Thoughts Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nissa View Post
    No. Not "Terrans defend selves." "Sergeant Slain leads a group of people to a colony to escape..."

    In other words, more than just boring, generic sentences that anyone could come up with.
    On the Terran colony of New Austin, the local militia led by Sergeant Rodriguez must defend themselves from nightmarish invaders that have carved a swathe of destruction through the Koprulu sector. When hope seems lost, a mysterious group of aliens appears to help them fight back the Zerg. They announce themselves as the Nerazim lead by Prelate Nethys, and she warns the Terrans that they must work together to purge the infestation or the arrogant Judicators of the fascist Protoss Empire will exterminate them without a second thought.

    The Protoss Empire and the remnants of the Zerg invasion are trying to recover from the consequences of the Great War and the new conflict of the Brood Wars. Most of the surviving cerebrates in the Empire's core worlds have gone feral, and rather than destroy them a number of radical Judicators such as Judicatress Yelena have proposed studying and even enslaving them to save Protoss lives from the renegade and feral Zerg still rampaging across the Empire. Prelate Atani has volunteered to protect Yelena's experiments from interference by the Zerg she seeks to control, much to the shock of their peers.

    Somewhere in Empire space a feral strike brood spontaneously birthed a new cerebrate. While the memories it inherited from its predecessor are corrupted and will take time to recover, the cerebrate has determined that its only means of survival is to leave the Empire. Using what little tactical information is has, it warps itself to the far outskirts of the Koprulu sector and soon finds itself in conflict with renegade broods and Terrans alike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    I think you meant to say the Starcraft manual was depicting this. Well, guess what? Some people can still enjoy the game story, find it compelling and "real" without the manual/backstory. So, something obviously works for the game's story, even when it's on its own.



    So... now you're blaming the story for being focused/having direction, or rather, having a particular focus/direction that you just don't prefer?



    And yet it endures/is still talked about after 2 decades... and here of all places, a site dedicated to the original game lore. You think anyone will be nostalgic and readily filling in gaps mentally that weren't explained for Sc2 in a decades time?

    I find the Sc1 story is robust because of its applicability. It supports multiple and varying interpretations without really advocating a particular position and even in spite of any latent authorial intent that maybe present. This engages an audience member since it allows them to invest themselves and their thoughts into the story as its being told. It's partly why I can accept/tolerate your specific opinions on it because they tell me more about you/how you interpret things than actually anything else to do with the story. It's kind of peculiar in a way with you though, since you clearly are quite cynical and vhemently disapproving of Sc1 and its foundations - it makes one wonder why you clamour on about making it great again when there's (apparently to you at any rate) not really that much that is great about it to begin with. I would've thought you'd just enjoy some other fictional universe or completely make one up by now...
    I do not have a problem with Rebel Yell. Most of the discussion seems to focus on that chapter and Episode 3, since Episode 2 is pretty boring and does nothing interesting with the Terran characters.

    I take issue with the way Metzen twisted the rest of the universe into a simple spin-off of Rebel Yell at the expense of previously established and much more interesting plot points. The Koprulu sector was originally cut off from Earth effectively forever, but Metzen retconned that away even though it was completely unnecessary since the KMC and Umojans already existed to full that role if necessary. The Zerg originally needed to make armies out of humans to fight the Protoss in order to justify Terran involvement, but this was forgotten and the Zerg twisted into something unrecognizable.

    I cannot enjoy another fictional universe because none are really comparable to SC: the Zerg are the only bug race that has any hint of personality since they were specifically tailored that way. Making my own setting would end up being an obvious rip-off of SC and I would be criticized accordingly.

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