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Thread: Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

  1. #1

    Default Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

    I know that its properly a "distant, shadowed world" on the wiki, but Ulnar's used, so I'll just use that.

    I made a post recently at Spacebattles about how Amon and the Hybrids clear Ulnar's solar system, and it got me thinking.



    At about 8:20.

    Besides the fact he's cleaning away Zerg life after he used them to kill everything else, what purpose does it serve to destroy planets/asteroids/etc. by doing this?

    What does wiping away solar systems have to do with his plans for a future of life in his image and created by his hand? Does he plan to create life besides the Hybrids, or is he merely talking about his Hybrids? The Void is being used, but what do "Black" Stars do for him? Is there some inherent connection with the Xel'naga and the stars directly? Does he want to reform new solar systems under his direct control? Does he want to amplify the Void or something along those lines of manipulation? Why do the Hybrids absorb the Zerg in the first place? Wasn't that specifically the Energy Creatures made by the proper Xel'naga's schtick? Is he trying to counteract some other plot made by the proper Xel'naga that was apart of the cycle?

    What's going on here?

    This has the real potential to be interesting, and Blizzard very well could mess it up or not even talk about it, but it makes me very curious as to what Amon's post-victory plans are with the galaxy.

  2. #2
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

    If Blizzard actually takes these things into consideration, it would be a remarkable improvement in their priorities. I doubt it, but we can hope. There needs to be a whole lot more about energy creatures and other advanced things like that. Hybrids aren't enough. They're pretty simple in concept.

    Anyways, I'm a bit fuzzy on Amon's motivations. Have they been revealed? Does Blizzard even have significant plans for them? It could just be that he's a maniacal tyrant that wants to destroy everything because why not. It's probably that he wanted to ensure the Zerg's devastation and the destruction of planets and solar systems means nothing to him. Hopefully, Blizzard will upgrade their setting in complexity and come up with some explanation for this that involves some kind of plan and intelligence behind it.
    Last edited by TheEconomist; 01-06-2014 at 05:29 PM.



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    If Blizzard actually takes these things into consideration, it would be a remarkable improvement in their priorities. I doubt it, but we can hope. There needs to be a whole lot more about energy creatures and other advanced things like that. Hybrids aren't enough. They're pretty simple in concept.
    Yeah.

    I'm rather fuzzy on where the energy creatures enter the whole situation in Starcraft 2, given that they are definitely created by the original Xel'naga, and are not creations of Amon. A whole group of them have already been born, and we know of one that has Zerg and Protoss in it, so maybe there is a connection between the energy creatures and the Stars.

    Anyways, I'm a bit fuzzy on Amon's motivations. Have they been revealed? Does Blizzard even have significant plans for them? It could just be that he's a maniacal tyrant that wants to destroy everything because why not. It's probably that he wanted to ensure the Zerg's devastation and the destruction of planets and solar systems means nothing to him. Hopefully, Blizzard will upgrade their setting in complexity and come up with some explanation for this that involves some kind of plan and intelligence behind it.
    From what I understand, when the Xel'naga go from one cycle to the next, the past cycle dies out. Maybe the new cycle is a new civilization that begins again with their own technology (or the technology of one of the parts that make the whole), maybe they pick up the technology of the past cycle, who knows, but the past Xel'naga seem to die out in their old age.

    Amon...doesn't want to die out. He wants to continue. Maybe his will at breaking the cycle is a just a means to an end at self-preservation. By the fact he can create the Hybrids, he has gone past the problem at Xel'naga reproduction by being able to artificially create the Hybrids. Sure, they are not the natural continuation, but they are capable of emulating what the Energy Creatures do by absorbing the client races. Given the way he treats the Protoss and the Zerg, he sees their lives as a threat to his continued existence. If there is a chance that the new cycle of Xel'naga are born, then what about him? What would the creation of the new gods mean to him? His position that he has held for billions of years would mean nothing anymore. He wouldn't be a a lord of the galaxy, he would be just a frail old thing that is nothing compared to the brilance of the new cycle while he withers away.

    We know that the Xel'naga degrade over time, and while Amon may have re-surged with the power he gained from Kerrigan, not to mention how he cheated death (that really needs to be explained), Xel'naga were killed by Protoss tribals and the Zerg on Zerus. While Zerus was already the beginning of where Amon started to manipulate things, the point is that they aren't the all powerful gods as they once were.

    The mechanics of it, aren't clear, but I'd say that Amon, underneath his mantle as a villain, is just an old man who doesn't want to die of old age, or have his life eclipsed.

    I may very well be Jossed, but I like the idea. Of course, this just means that Amon is similar to Sauron in terms of motive, but that isn't exactly a bad thing. I don't think there has been a space Sauron yet.

    The only things that need to be clarified is how he cheated death. Considering that the Xel'naga consider killing any form of life a serious taboo, perhaps the only thing that really kept the Xel'naga back from continuing forever and ever was their morals, something that Amon was willing to compromise in order for his own survival.
    Last edited by Shadow Archon; 01-06-2014 at 07:16 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    What's going on here?
    That's a very good question. However, most people ask this with a tone of incredulity rather than with any real intent or expectation of a reasonable answer.

    It's hard not to be facetious with all this Amon stuff, but as far as we can tell from this exchange the only reason why we see Amon doing what he's doing is to establish a) how much of an evil, badass mofo he is and b) how much threat/power he possesses.

    You have to remember that this is a vision of the Overmind and therefore prone to bias or even be outright lies. Also, given that the focus is going to be on Zeratul in LotV, it'd be hard to get any real POV from Amon. Any information regarding Amon's motivations will have to come directly from his mouth to hold any weight. Not only will that will be "most convenient" for him to spill his guts, we also have to trust implicitly in what he's telling us to be true (see how far that gets you - we can't even trust the Overmind to be implicitly truthful about his slave status so what chance does any other character have, especially a powerful, omnipotent one, to be trustworthy?) because we don't get to approach it from his POV.

    Even then, how satisfying are his motivations going to be once revealed? It's all just going to boil down to some form of "oh, he just wanted to" anyway. There's far too little lead-up and focus on Amon as it is for most to even care about his motivations let alone care about the exact reasoning for his actions.

    My guess (for what it's worth): Amon wants to be the only God in the universe due to some inferiority superiority complex with how he sees himself and the Xel'Naga. The rest is just pish posh details.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  5. #5

    Default Re: Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Turalyon View Post
    That's a very good question. However, most people ask this with a tone of incredulity rather than with any real intent or expectation of a reasonable answer.

    It's hard not to be facetious with all this Amon stuff, but as far as we can tell from this exchange the only reason why we see Amon doing what he's doing is to establish a) how much of an evil, badass mofo he is and b) how much threat/power he possesses.
    True.

    He's less of a character and more of just an antagonistic force at this point.

    The Dark Voice, beyond "In Utter Darkness" doesn't even talk or physically appear.

    You have to remember that this is a vision of the Overmind and therefore prone to bias or even be outright lies.


    What?

    It's a precognitive view of what would happen.

    It isn't speculation or anything like that. We've seen Psionics see the future elsewhere in the lore, and they are correct in what they see. I don't see at all why what we see is invalid or "changed."

    The only thing that is definitely not 100% accurate is what is affected by gameplay and choices that deal with that.

    Also, given that the focus is going to be on Zeratul in LotV, it'd be hard to get any real POV from Amon. Any information regarding Amon's motivations will have to come directly from his mouth to hold any weight. Not only will that will be "most convenient" for him to spill his guts, we also have to trust implicitly in what he's telling us to be true
    That's true.

    It would be nice to have the Dark Voice be utterly silent, as another faceless evil, but given his portrayal in Wings and his very name....Blizzard is going to have him ham it up, aren't they?

    (see how far that gets you - we can't even trust the Overmind to be implicitly truthful about his slave status so what chance does any other character have, especially a powerful, omnipotent one, to be trustworthy?)
    ...Why can't we trust the Overmind's vision?

    Being evil doesn't make you untrustworthy.

    because we don't get to approach it from his POV.
    That is not exactly true.

    You do not need they're direct POV to explain their motives.

    Sure, you do need to have the POV of several characters and events that happen around the main villian, and that doesn't happen in SC2 as of yet....

    Even then, how satisfying are his motivations going to be once revealed? It's all just going to boil down to some form of "oh, he just wanted to" anyway. There's far too little lead-up and focus on Amon as it is for most to even care about his motivations let alone care about the exact reasoning for his actions.
    ...I really hope you're wrong.

    Hell, I'd be fine with the entire resolution to the Amon plot being pushed back beyond Legacy of the Void.

    My guess (for what it's worth): Amon wants to be the only God in the universe due to some inferiority superiority complex with how he sees himself and the Xel'Naga. The rest is just pish posh details.
    I hope there's something beyond that, but the only way to delve into that is to delve into Xel'naga culture.

    Maybe we can get a Xel'naga series like Halo got the Forerunner series to explain past events?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    What?

    It's a precognitive view of what would happen.

    It isn't speculation or anything like that. We've seen Psionics see the future elsewhere in the lore, and they are correct in what they see. I don't see at all why what we see is invalid or "changed."
    You don't know that. It's just explained as being a "vision" which anyone and everyone can have at any time. Not only that, it's a vision of vision of a vision of a vision (I probably missed or added one too many "visions") which dilutes its impact like a game of "whispers".

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    The only thing that is definitely not 100% accurate is what is affected by gameplay and choices that deal with that.
    The lore is not 100% accurate either since it can change veritably at any time and a whim whether it be now or later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    It would be nice to have the Dark Voice be utterly silent, as another faceless evil, but given his portrayal in Wings and his very name....Blizzard is going to have him ham it up, aren't they?
    I guess that's something worth waiting for, amirites?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    Why can't we trust the Overmind's vision?
    WoL reveals the Overmind to be an unreliable narrator in Sc1. The logic follows on from that.

    Also, "Tassadar" (Is it the real ghost of Tassadar? Can Protoss become ghosts? Is it even Tassadar at all?) could've interpreted it wrong/lied. *Shrugs*

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    You do not need they're direct POV to explain their motives.

    Sure, you do need to have the POV of several characters and events that happen around the main villian, and that doesn't happen in SC2 as of yet....
    Explaining it is only half the issue. You have to feel it as being a substantial and natural extension of that character not just some half-baked tacked on motivation. The best way to do that is to give some sort of POV. Heck, it was the reason why we were supposed to get the feels from having to follow Raynor in WoL and Kerrigan in HotS via their POVs because at least you have a foundation for some understanding of the motivations (albeit a bit hackneyed) to take place. With Amon, we have and most likely, not get even that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    Hell, I'd be fine with the entire resolution to the Amon plot being pushed back beyond Legacy of the Void.
    God no! As little as there is of Amon already, I'm of the opinion that even that is too much of him as it is! His entire presence just reeks of contrived plot device. Besides, I don't think fans would appreciate having his plotline dragged out even more unnecessarily longer or have lack of resolution given the interminable wait already for the current sage to complete and then wait yet another 12 years when Sc3 comes out. I hope Sc2 puts an end to him and just forgets that he even existed. They're were content to "shoo away" the impact of the original Overmind and the UED so far, so there's precedent for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    I hope there's something beyond that, but the only way to delve into that is to delve into Xel'naga culture.

    Maybe we can get a Xel'naga series like Halo got the Forerunner series to explain past events?
    I agree with this. It should be relegated to EU books (where all this Xel'Naga stuff started happening) so that I can have the opportunity to miss them like I did the first time with all the other books and "forget" that they existed.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


    _______________________________________________

  7. #7

    Default Re: Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

    Anyways, I'm a bit fuzzy on Amon's motivations. Have they been revealed? Does Blizzard even have significant plans for them? It could just be that he's a maniacal tyrant that wants to destroy everything because why not.
    At work; haven't read the entirety of the posts. But I'm of the opinion that Amon may be a Xel'Naga bent on continuing his existence and was, at some point, corrupted by the Voice in the Darkness. Blizzard stated that Amon and the Voice in the Darkness are not the same entity, which is true from my perspective, but there are too many links and similarities to ignore. Before its imprisonment, perhaps the Voice corrupted Amon, who began doing its work. After the end of his life along with the last of his Cycle, Voice-corrupted agents continued to pursue his agenda with the intent of reviving Amon and freeing the Voice itself from its prison. I'm pointing to a "Sauron and the Ring", semi-symbiotic relationship between Amon and the Voice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anyways, I'm a bit fuzzy on Amon's motivations. Have they been revealed? Does Blizzard even have significant plans for them? It could just be that he's a maniacal tyrant that wants to destroy everything because why not.
    At work; haven't read the entirety of the posts. But I'm of the opinion that Amon may be a Xel'Naga bent on continuing his existence and was, at some point, corrupted by the Voice in the Darkness. Blizzard stated that Amon and the Voice in the Darkness are not the same entity, which is true from my perspective, but there are too many links and similarities to ignore. Before its imprisonment, perhaps the Voice corrupted Amon, who began doing its work. After the end of his life along with the last of his Cycle, Voice-corrupted agents continued to pursue his agenda with the intent of reviving Amon and freeing the Voice itself from its prison. I'm pointing to a "Sauron and the Ring", semi-symbiotic relationship between Amon and the Voice.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  8. #8
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

    Oh, right, The Voice in the Darkness, but I think you mean Sargeras



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

  9. #9
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    It isn't speculation or anything like that. We've seen Psionics see the future elsewhere in the lore, and they are correct in what they see. I don't see at all why what we see is invalid or "changed."
    The zealots have true precognition (or so we think), but this isn't that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Archon View Post
    Answer: The Overmind's consciousness was molded by the entity referred to here as the Dark Voice. During that process, the Overmind was exposed to some of the Dark Voice's plans for the future. Scattered, confused images, sensations, ideas, concepts. Nothing clear or concrete. That vision was a narrative the Overmind constructed from bits and pieces, and it was about all that the Overmind could glean from the time spent with the Dark Voice.
    http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/8226555

    Creating a scenario from scattered & confused images is no better than taking a wild guess, especially that far in the past.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Discussion: Exactly what did Amon do to Ulnar's Solar System and why?

    Oh hey, the Q&As Blizzard gave us. I remember those times. A more civilized age. Before the Empire... of bad Blizzard ideas...
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

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