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Thread: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

  1. #21

    Default Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

    Kerrigan never struck me as being wholly in control by brood war
    How...?

    She clearly outlines her motivations and they have nothing to do with what someone else wants her to do. It's all about her getting revenge basically, and ensuring that nobody would ever threaten her again.


    The Mother of all Queens!

    Thanks to Dynamik- for the signature!

  2. #22

    Default Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

    Gradius said that Kerrigan was opposed to using the zerg on confederates in campaign 1 even after the decade long abuse she suffered. By Contrast, in brood war she is willing to betray all her allies and gets a kick out of it even though those allies (well the protoss and raynor) didn't wrong her. She enjoyed stabbing fenix in the back, she enjoyed betraying zeratul and twisting her blade in, and she enjoyed brainwashing raszegal even though none of the above three betrayed her (hell Raszegal and even Zeratul were probably willing to help her. Zeratul was starting to trust her before Aldaris threatened to blow her cover). The idea that she would just decide that hurting people was fun after getting infested and free is just.....stupid. She made her choices, but saying that she did it without the infestation at least PARTIALLY influencing her mental proccesses (maybe surpressing morality) is the height of stupidity, being inconsistent character wise simply because it's DARK and EDGY. It's immature and stupid.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

    Uh, she'd been through an incredibly traumatic betrayal, kidnapping and... well essentially mental AND physical torturing at the hands of the Overmind. Her being infested is not a requirement for her to become a much more embittered, angry character.

    Zeratul was not her friend. Zeratul was her enemy on Char. He was an enemy who would stand in the way of her achieving the security and vengeance she sought. She didn't seem to particularly enjoy killing Fenix outside of the fact that she was proving herself as a superior combatant (and well, she thought he was an idiot essentially), she's not doing it because she wants to, she SPECIFICALLY mentions she's doing it because well, basically she thinks Fenix and Raynor are too large a threat to be left alive. She was toying with Zeratul and toying with Fenix and Raynor and Mengsk because she wanted to achieve her goals at any cost. She was ruthless. That doesn't make her a monster. Even during the Brood War Protoss campaign, they became at best begrudging allies who potentially had value to one another. He still didn't really trust her.


    The Mother of all Queens!

    Thanks to Dynamik- for the signature!

  4. #24

    Default Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

    Uh, she'd been through an incredibly traumatic betrayal, kidnapping and... well essentially mental AND physical torturing at the hands of the Overmind [...] She was ruthless. That doesn't make her a monster.
    I'd say it would make her a monster.

    One subtle theme going through the campaigns so far that I like is the concept of becoming what you hate. Both Raynor and Kerrigan, to some degree, begin to emulate Arcturus; Kerrigan is right in that Mengsk has made them all into monsters. I think Metzen is slightly off when he says Mengk's story is done, the consequences of his actions still reverberate through those people he has wronged. I just wish this was emphasized a little more in WoL, but it's pretty evident in HotS.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

    Part of the thing was that she took pleasure from her atrocities.

    1.) Her "why are you worried he died in combat" seemed designed to land blows, not just on Raynor. It's almost like she's mocking his death (sort of a "he died in combat so why should you be upset").

    2.) With Zeratul, she had him dead to rights, but spared him once he killed Raszegal. Again, her voice acting and choice of words implied that it is much about twisting the knife as it is about showing how she no longer views him as a threat.

    3.) During the protoss campaign Zeratul was actually saying "maybe we were wrong about you".

    4.) The protoss hadn't actively wronged her that much. So why gain pleasure from inflicting pain? She acted largely because it would benefit her, but it's pretty damn obvious she enjoyed it.

    She largely made her own choices and wasn't brainwashed. But I always felt that her transformation was too rapid. It didn't really ring that true to me. she didn't need infestation to be bitter and ruthless, but to say that she didn't need it to be sadistic and enjoy screwing over the protoss who hadn't really hurt her seems stupid.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

    I guess it comes back to the infestation process; what exactly did it do to her? Was her sadistic streak the zerg part of her; Amon's influence; or years of pent up rage and anger that she finally felt justified in unleashing on the galaxy, along with the power to do it? Perhaps a combination of all three; she's obviously doing a lot of the same things after retaking the Swarm in HotS, but the sadism that defined the Queen of Blades seems to have vanished. What remains is bitterness and anger.

    She's said that she "wearied of the slaughter" in Brood War, so perhaps her thirst was quenched, in some regard? She's had time to grow and mature into her power since then.
    Aaand sold.


    Be it through hallowed grounds or lands of sorrow
    The Forger's wake is bereft and fallow

    Is the residuum worth the cost of destruction and maiming;
    Or is the shaping a culling and exercise in taming?

    The road's goal is the Origin of Being
    But be wary through what thickets it winds.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
    She was toying with Zeratul and toying with Fenix and Raynor and Mengsk because she wanted to achieve her goals at any cost. She was ruthless.
    If she had been dedicated to achieving her goals at any cost, if she had been ruthless, she would have killed Mengsk, Raynor and Zeratul. She didn't. In fact, she specifically let them live, knowing they would be obstacles to her again. This is the theme with Kerrigan in Brood War - her petty cruelty and unrestrained ego continually getting in the way of competency.

    In fact, your sentence contradicts itself - 'toying with' means not taking seriously, playing around for the sake of amusement. It's the opposite of being dedicated to achieving your goals at any cost.
    Last edited by FanaticTemplar; 03-18-2013 at 01:21 PM.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Freespace View Post
    Did you notice the improvement on Zeratul's voice? I thought he was simply badass here, as opposed to his horrible rendition in WoL.
    Yeah they did something to his effects. What I was really impressed by though was the effects for Kerrigan in the intro cinematic when she says "now at last".

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    She made her choices, but saying that she did it without the infestation at least PARTIALLY influencing her mental proccesses (maybe surpressing morality) is the height of stupidity, being inconsistent character wise simply because it's DARK and EDGY. It's immature and stupid.
    Nobody ever said that, so I have no idea if you're talking to me or...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    The primal zerg? As a concept, I like it, but it's written as if the "zerg were insectoids" lore is retconned. It's not totally incompatible, and there's been many wiki discussions on how to incorporate it, but I think the primal zerg could easily exist without having to sacrifice the insectoid lore.
    100% disagreement. I find the entire concept of zerg that don't have a hive-mind to be nonsensical and ill-conceived. Even Abathur's explanation for how they got new strains doesn't make any sense, since they appear in the very first mission. What, are we expected to believe that an army of ours was slaughtered behind-the-scenes before we first arrived so that the primals absorbed the essence beforehand? The giant dinosaur guy that you fight (Zurvan)? Stupid. The idea of absorbing a magical substance called "essence"? Stupid.

    Most infested terrans are mindless drones. The Overmind had to jump through hoops to create the Queen of Blades, and she was "his greatest creation". So what, a random cesspool on Zerus has the magical ability to skip all that work and do the same exact thing only better? Why? By far, the worst mission arc of both games IMHO. I will just pretend that this didn't happen.

    While I maintain the WoL Korhal mission was a raid (suck it Grad)
    I will fight you over this forever. Just sayin. :P

    there was a bit of iffiness here. Korhal's heavily defended, yes, but at this point in time, it shouldn't matter to the Swarm at all.
    I have to give them some credit for keeping most of the Leviathans away from the battle in case things go south...but again...what's the point? Why not crush Mengsk like a cracker over soup with everything you have?

    Valerian Mengsk: Another good character IMO. His early mission appearence aside, I'm glad he took the path he did. Good lines, good interaction.

    Arcturus Mengsk: A common complaint about Mengsk in WoL was that he was ineffectual. I kind of agree(d), but didn't see it as something bad, but rather as character development. In a position of power, power for his own sake, loses his edge, etc. The problem with that theory is that he definately has that edge back in HotS, both in regards to his psychological attacks against Kerrigan (e.g. Raynor) and Korhal. He's outmanauvered, but it shows him being pro-active in his responses to her. And he's far more ruthless, such as the way he callously destroys the Moros. I guess if I had to reconcile the two, it would be that the 'best' of Mengsk comes out when he's challenged, such as when leading the SoK, or dealing with Kerrigan. Either way, Mengsk was a badass here, and I thought he was handled excellently.
    Agreed. The Arcturus from HoTS was by far superior.

    Yet compared to what they originally were...what were the writers thinking? Abathur was hinted to have ulterior motives. He was created by the Overmind...maybe he was still loyal to the Overmind. Maybe the primal zerg incoropration would break the 'purity of the Swarm.' Maybe...maybe...nope. Nothing. Wasted opportunity IMO.
    Huh. I didn't really follow any of that stuff because of spoilers. But yeah, Abathur and Lessara have disappointingly little backstory to them. I'd rather have had Lessara as a Leviathan character instead of Dahakka.

    Izsha...I admit, when I first found out she used to be Amanda Haley, I was iffy. It felt like continuity for continuity's sake. Yet I came to see the potential. Kerrigan, faced with the living example of one of her cruelest, most unnecessary acts. How would she feel? How would Izsha feel? Does she prefer being zerg? Would old ghosts be confronted? Would...would...wow. I was intrigued. This seemed like a great idea. It...never appeared in the bloody game! Heck, I don't even know if they are the same character anymore, because there's not a trace of it I can find. Just...wow. Just wow. I don't know whose decision it was to not explore this story, but Jesus Christ, this better be asked at BlizzCon 2013, because in all honesty, this was one of the biggest blunders ever made.
    Thank god it did not appear in the bloody game! The idea that this snake/eel creature was a former human-turned-mineless-drone is garbage, and I refuse to entertain it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    You are more optimistic than I. I'm sorry for mentioning that abomination, but the Prophecy arc from Wings of Liberty had you playing as the Protoss and it was the most astonishing parade of defeat I could have conceived.

    Mission 1: Run away from Kerrigan while brave Protoss warriors sacrifice themselves to give you a chance of escaping alive!
    Mission 2: This is a Hybrid. It has somehow corrupted this entire Protoss settlement, and you must now hack your way through your brethren in order to kill it. The Hybrid itself is not important, incidentally, there are thousands like it coming. Just in case you thought you'd achieved something.
    Mission 3: This is Aiur, the most sacred icon of Protoss culture, the homeworld of your species. You have been forced to run away from it and it now lies broken and infested, the Overmind ruling over it even in death.
    Mission 4: Witness the extinction of the Protoss species.
    Ouch. My inner protoss fanboy is livid.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticTemplar View Post
    If she had been dedicated to achieving her goals at any cost, if she had been ruthless, she would have killed Mengsk, Raynor and Zeratul. She didn't.
    Depends on what her goals were. Her goal wasn't

    In fact, she specifically let them live, knowing they would be obstacles to her again. This is the theme with Kerrigan in Brood War - her petty cruelty and unrestrained ego continually getting in the way of competency.

    In fact, your sentence contradicts itself - 'toying with' means not taking seriously, playing around for the sake of amusement. It's the opposite of being dedicated to achieving your goals at any cost.
    It doesn't contradict itself. Her goal was to screw with Mengsk and Zeratul (at the very least).

    This is the theme with Kerrigan in Brood War - her petty cruelty and unrestrained ego continually getting in the way of competency.
    You're kidding. Kerrigan in Brood War was hyper-competent. She wiped out the entire sector. Including the Overmind, UED, Dominion and the Protoss. And no, she wouldn't have killed Zeratul, he was obviously useful for one thing, and yeah, she wanted to torture him.

    She's said that she "wearied of the slaughter" in Brood War, so perhaps her thirst was quenched, in some regard? She's had time to grow and mature into her power since then.
    Well I think that was just for that day. Next mission she's back to wiping out her enemies.

    1.) Her "why are you worried he died in combat" seemed designed to land blows, not just on Raynor. It's almost like she's mocking his death (sort of a "he died in combat so why should you be upset").

    2.) With Zeratul, she had him dead to rights, but spared him once he killed Raszegal. Again, her voice acting and choice of words implied that it is much about twisting the knife as it is about showing how she no longer views him as a threat.
    Yeah, it was. It was about getting revenge.

    3.) During the protoss campaign Zeratul was actually saying "maybe we were wrong about you".
    Yeah, but that doesn't mean he was totally convinced of that, or that he trusted her. She's still just a Terran (infested by Zerg no less), they were never going to be close. AND the whole thing was just a scheme on Kerrigan's part to destroy the renegade Zerg and most likely test out how much control she had over Raszagal.

    4.) The protoss hadn't actively wronged her that much. So why gain pleasure from inflicting pain? She acted largely because it would benefit her, but it's pretty damn obvious she enjoyed it.
    Yeah she did enjoy it. She's definitely a sadist, but that doesn't make her one-dimensional.

    She largely made her own choices and wasn't brainwashed. But I always felt that her transformation was too rapid. It didn't really ring that true to me. she didn't need infestation to be bitter and ruthless, but to say that she didn't need it to be sadistic and enjoy screwing over the protoss who hadn't really hurt her seems stupid.
    They might not have stabbed her in the back, but they did humiliate her and oppose her. She didn't like that. And her transformation was based on a traumatic event. It wasn't going to happen over time. And if you read the SC1 prequel E-book (name escapes me right now, it was the one about Mengsk and kerrigan's backstory), Kerrigan wasn't some pure-hearted little flower and Mengsk wasn't some black-hearted jackass. Kerrigan definitely already had a vicious streak, even before becoming infested.
    Last edited by Aldrius; 03-18-2013 at 09:05 PM.


    The Mother of all Queens!

    Thanks to Dynamik- for the signature!

  10. #30

    Default Re: Gradius's HoTS Story Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Most infested terrans are mindless drones. The Overmind had to jump through hoops to create the Queen of Blades, and she was "his greatest creation". So what, a random cesspool on Zerus has the magical ability to skip all that work and do the same exact thing only better? Why? By far, the worst mission arc of both games IMHO. I will just pretend that this didn't happen.
    I am so happy to find a mirror of my hatred :P.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
    Depends on what her goals were. Her goal wasn't
    I think a crucial part of your reply has been lost :P.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
    It doesn't contradict itself. Her goal was to screw with Mengsk and Zeratul (at the very least).
    Quite so. Because she's petty and cruel and completely unlike her human self. You're the one who claimed she only did this because "he was an enemy who stood in her way".

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrius View Post
    You're kidding. Kerrigan in Brood War was hyper-competent. She wiped out the entire sector. Including the Overmind, UED, Dominion and the Protoss.
    This in Brood War, which retconned the Zerg into being multiple magnitudes of power over every other race. This is the game where a handful of insignificant, purposeless and essentially unlead Zerg were a threat to the entire Protoss species that could only be averted through a plot device called the Xel'Naga Temple. The fact that Kerrigan, controlling essentially all the Zerg could do all this and more is no more evidence of competence than the fact that a child with a magnifying glass can kill an ant. Kerrigan in Brood War relies on others to do things for her, but she never manipulates them, she merely relies on them being too moral or too stupid not to do whatever she wants. Despite her massive advantages, she continually jeopardises her own plans through her inability to affect even the barest subtlety, first by attracting the attention of Aldaris for no discernible purpose, then by confessing to her evil in the middle of two Protoss armies after murdering one of their leaders and relying for her survival entirely on Zeratul making the ludicrously stupid decision to punish her by exiling her from Shakuras. She betrays her 'allies' - who have sided with her because they have suddenly forgotten that the Zerg threaten to devour all sentience, all life - based on the notion that 'they are too dangerous to be left alive' but then spares the half of them who are main characters. Including the leader of the Terran faction. After she takes control of Raszagal through unknown powers that are never mentioned again, she uses her to get Zeratul to kill the Overmind... and then when asked to fulfill her half of the bargain and let her puppet return to a position of leadership among the Protoss, she decides 'nah, I don't wanna' which forces a fight with Zeratul. After which she allows Zeratul to leave.

    The only smart characters to show up in Brood War do so in the Terran campaign. The best the other two have to offer is Aldaris.
    Zeratul: I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
    Aldaris: Did not! That doesn't even make sense!
    Zeratul: Shut up, I totally did!

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