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Thread: [Necro] How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

  1. #21

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    General response/point making time:

    -I know what you mean about grim and dark, but I don't think it precludes an ending that is bereft of "but it isn't over" or "hope has been won today, but what about tomorrow?" Take the ending of Diablo III for example-compared to the previous games of two "to be continued" endings and one ending that's a phyric victory at best or another "to be continued" depending on your interpretation, it's nice to get an ending that finally gives the setting a break, to truly end and ergo (for me at least) be the most emotionally fulfilling. Granted, it's obvious via the knowledge of expansion packs and statements that it's not over (dammit), but you get the idea...

    Couple this with the previous StarCraft games, where we had two "to be continued" and two where the zerg win (don't know about Stellar Forces and DLC is another kettle of fish), and again, for once, it would be nice to get an ending where we're not being slapped in the face AGAIN. The ending of WoL was one such example, because while we know there's two games to come, we at least got a satisfying conclusion to an arc of that trilogy.

    (By we I of course mean me-you're entitled to dispute the claim).

    -The inherant flaws you mention in the original games are, IMO, not really applicable to the zerg in that time period. Look at the first game-the Sons of Korhal are battling the Confederacy during an alien invasion, and the protoss are fighting themselves over the Nerazim while the zerg are still on their planet. In contrast, the zerg are very much unified. True, Kerrigan and Zasz had their disagreements and there was the obligatory zerg vs. zerg mission, but it isn't until BW we get an actual zerg civil war. Even then, we only see Kerrigan's POV and none of Daggoth's for instance.

    -Moving on to the point of zerg humanity, to be honest, I think the seeds were planted long before. In SC1, we had the Overmind and cerebrates, with Kerrigan being the exception. In BW, we had Kerrigan, the cerebrate and Duran, with the cerebrates and Overmind being the enemy. In the interbellum, we've got the cerebrates done away with and more IT characters such as Duran, Stukov and Stewart. Come HotS, we've got zerg characters such as Abathur and Izsha. In a way, it's come full circle. We're back to zerg characters who are 'true zerg' (Izsha being a former Haley notwithstanding), yet are more individual than the cerebrates even were. The metamorphs and queens are indicative of this trend also. Kind of projecting, but we're getting 'true zerg' again that aren't bound to the Overmind. With Daggoth, without the Overmind, his first order of business was to create a new one because the cerebrates weren't made to function without one. With Abathur or Za'gara for instance, if Kerrigan died, they'd hapilly step into her place.

    So in light of this, to be honest, I think the zerg have been going in this direction for a long time. Kerrigan is a bit of an oddity here-if she embraces her zerginess, then the Lich King/Fordragon comparison is moot. If she doesn't, then it remains valid. Either way, personally, I don't want the zerg being left as some unstoppable locust race like they were back under the Overmind. Firstly because it feels like a hollow victory (zerg haven't changed, sector/galaxy are still forced to contend with them) and secondly, because it's effectively plot reversion and in a sense, against the 'new zerg' spirit. The likes of Abathur and Za'gara aren't exactly nice people, but they're certainly a step up from talking, pulsating heads of doom.

  2. #22

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    We're back to zerg characters who are 'true zerg' (Izsha being a former Haley notwithstanding), yet are more individual than the cerebrates even were. The metamorphs and queens are indicative of this trend also. Kind of projecting, but we're getting 'true zerg' again that aren't bound to the Overmind.
    To be fair, the real criticism of Sc1 and BW lies in its inability to make the cerebrates interesting or unique. Daggoth and Zasz are just ciphers in Sc1 and I guess it's understandable given that the Overmind was around at the time, but one has to consider that there was potential for the cerebrates after the Overmind died. Afterall, the Cerebrates are truer to the Zerg than the Overmind given that they are just larger and more intelligent versions of their original forms but no, they were unceremoniously dumped in BW and then in their entirety in the EU. BW was the opportunity for the cerebrates to show another side but all we get on them is Kerrigan's exposition on what they plan to do. The good things you mention about these new "true Zerg" characters could just have been applied to the cerebrates themselves given the chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    Either way, personally, I don't want the zerg being left as some unstoppable locust race like they were back under the Overmind. Firstly because it feels like a hollow victory (zerg haven't changed, sector/galaxy are still forced to contend with them) and secondly, because it's effectively plot reversion and in a sense, against the 'new zerg' spirit.
    What would you have the Zerg be then? Can they still be Zerg as a result? In Sc1, the Zerg are represented as the ultimate existential threat. Their entire purpose and reason to exist in that universe is to be just that. Just like the Terrans are resourceful and tenacious and the Protoss are lofty, high-minded and powerful, the Zerg are known for that characteristic of being an "unstoppable locust race". Now they can't even be that because they are now being supplanted by another even more ultimate existential threat.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  3. #23

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Hmm...this is probably going to wax lyrical, but hey, I like procrastinating.

    To be honest, I think there's only two valid possibilities for the zerg in a story sense, three if we go back to 'harbingers of doom,' as in, the 'evil' race of the big three (back in SC1, closest to being 'evil' and all that). To be honest, I don't think either would be that appealing to most people, but from a story sense, I think they're kind of at a dead end.

    The first option is essentially isolation. To effectively remove them from the storyline, to make them a non-player race, to be something in the background-something that can be explored in DLC and/or EU, but no longer be involved in the 'big wars' (Great War, Brood War, Second Great War, etc.) This of course raises a gameplay issue, as the zerg are one of the 'big three' and have a distinctive play-style. But story wise, I'm not sure what else can really be done with them bar repeating something that's happened before in previous games. I've noticed a similar issue with 'bug species' in other medias-xenomorphs are practically cannon fodder in the Aliens/Predator series for example. The Arachnids of Starship Troopers have never deviated from their norm of being at war with humanity, the tyranids have rarely been used in 40K fiction as far as I can tell and people actually cheered in a panel when it was confirmed that the Flood wouldn't be in Halo 4. There's probably examples out there of 'bug species' where the status quo changes, but to be honest, I don't think there's that much at the end of the day. They're hemogenous, static, with few characters and as such, it's harder to alter the status quo the same way as it is with the terrans (e.g. replacing the Confederacy of the Dominion) or the protoss (losing Aiur, Nerazim-Khalai tensions). Tyranids and xenomorphs will always be around because their host universes are effectively static as well, with stories being told in the universes rather than driving those universes forward. In contrast, up until this point, each core game in the StarCraft series has altered the status quo.

    The other option is to give the zerg a mandate for change, which in a sense, a precedent has been set. There's the likes of Abathur and Izsha to consider in the character sense, and metamorphs/new queens in the lore/unit sense. As mentioned, the zerg seem to be going into more character centric territory. The more character(s), the more of a dynamic exists and as such, the more there is room to change. The problem however, comes from a gameplay perspective. Let's be honest, zerg players love their zerg. They love rushing their zerglings, grouping their hydralisks, summoning their ultralisks. But would they like them as much if those were all individual zerg (ala metamorphs), each with their own hopes and dreams. I don't play multiplayer much, but in terms of gameplay, zerg are probably the hardest race for me to use. But still, I can understand the 'feeling' of sending your minions to die en masse as per the play style. Would that feeling still exist if those zerg were shouting "go go go?"

    I guess that's the dilemma we're in. Gameplay-wise, I don't think people would want to lose any of the 'big three.' Storywise, I don't think there's much one can do with the zerg bar taking them in the more character-centric direction they seem to be on. It's a direction I actually like storywise because it shows how they've changed, and in experience, I haven't seen much change in 'bug species' in sic-fi, so kudos to Blizzard for pulling it off. But I imagine I'm very much in a minority here, and again, back with the 'feel' of playing with the zerg I mentioned earlier.

    So, in conclusion, where would I take the zerg? I'd go more for option 1. But in light of a likely inevitable StarCraft III, and the knowledge that people won't want to give up their zerg, I can't help but feel that there's an inherant conflict between story and gameplay here. I'll be honest, I feel the protoss have a similar issue post-LotV, but at least they're a race of individuals. The zerg are on the cusp of it, but there's probably only so far they can go and remain in the core series. I'd happily have another race/faction fill in their gameplay niche, but I understand there's a lot of people who love playing zerg more than I do, so where does that leave us? I think the series could hapily end with LotV (tying up the hybrid/xel'naga arc), but I doubt it'll happen.

    Edit: Come to think of it, there is a third option storywise, namely a repeat of The Frozen Throne, how we had the Sentinel/Watchers, Illidari and Scourge/Forsaken campaigns following sequentially in a single story while keeping the Horde campaign/story seperate. Could do the same thing with the zerg I guess post-LotV, with some kind of establishment of the 'new zerg' out wherever, woe betide any who tries to get in their way. This may come off as desperate, but I'll admit, any return of the zerg to the Koprulu sector post-LotV suggests either return to form for them (SC1 repeat), the wild child (BW-UED repeat) or unification against a common foe, something I'm not fond of occurring in the series and hopefully won't in LotV (already projected how it'll end). Anyway, go figure.
    Last edited by Hawki; 09-02-2012 at 11:59 PM.

  4. #24

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    I don't see much of a problem in the gameplay department if Zerg start becoming characters. Afterall, marines are just as expendable as Zerglings and I'm sure people don't care if they die in droves as long as they served their purpose. The dynamic still remains the same because the new Zerg characters would still have a swarm mentality to them anyway.

    I've always liked the prospect of the main teams beings further factionalised though. BW had the scope of showing that for the Zerg with the Overmind gone but it dropped the ball on that one. It would have been nice to see Kerrigan's take on the Zerg and Daggoth's (and/or other Cerebrates) version of Zerg as being different from each other, like we see in the differences between the Khalai and Nerazim for the Protoss and the Dominion/Confederacy vs KMC or the Protectorate or Raynor's Raiders or UED.

    HotS can look good if they can show some some loyalist (Queens continuing the old Overmind principles) vs rebel/patriot (Kerrigan's new wave) Zerg action but also maintain that division so that not all Zerg fly under one banner (ie: Kerrigan's) at the end. That diversity should keep the Zerg more relevant in the scheme of things.
    Yes, that's right! That is indeed ME on the right.


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  5. #25

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    I think Hawki's point was fair. Even if victory has to be hard fought for, there can still be a tangible victory. Take Megaman Zero 4. The conflict between Humans and Reploids is finally over, X's dream is accomplshd, and Dr weil has finally faced Justice for his crimes (which are legion). But Zero had to sacrifice his life to do so, and it's very heavily implied that this time he's gone for good. There was tragedy and cost (zero had to sacrifice himself to take Weil Down) but the victory (humans and reploids have finally made peace after centuries of tension) is tangible. WOL i think tried this route. Tychus is dead, Mengsk is still in power, and the Dark Voice is on the horizon ready to unleash ragnarok (just like Surtur, who is also voiced by rick wasserman). But Raynor has finally faced his inner demons, his army is larger, and he's made genuine progress.

    I remember that there was one fan song ghost assassin and while the lyrics where as cheesy as all get out they did paint kerrigan in a way that actually made sense. She's unsure of how much the Queen of Blades was the zerg infestation, and how much was her own inner darkness unleashed. Raynor broke the cycle of revenge when he worked with valerian to stop her despite his personal hatred for the mengsk family and wasted his bullet that he swore to use on Arcturus to save Kerrigan. Can Kerrigan do the same thing and become the first of Blizzard's fallen heroes to acheive redemption for their past? Also, even if she doesn't get a completely happy ending, she deserves to be able to finally lay the past to rest.

  6. #26

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Jackie Chan will arrive dressed as Chun Li and then helicopter kick Kerrigan in the forehead and then Samara from the Ring will challenge Kerrigan to a psychic battle and Kerrigan will have to fight both Jackie Chan and Samara and it will be the bestest thing evar.

    marines are just as expendable as Zerglings
    Marine: Gee thanks. I'm standing right here, y'know.

  7. #27

    Default

    dude we get that you don't like the story, but do you really have to bitch about it in every thread.

    besides having just out of reach or bigger shit coming is bullshit if done every time. Why can't the heroes have tangible victories? I think thats why most people hated the ending. Because it wasn't dark and many think dark = mature
    Last edited by Sarov; 09-12-2012 at 12:47 AM. Reason: Please refrain from double posting.

  8. #28

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Quote Originally Posted by solidsamurai View Post
    Jackie Chan will arrive dressed as Chun Li.
    Funny enough. I think that was rated the best Street Fighter movie or something like that.

  9. #29

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    dude we get that you don't like the story, but do you really have to bitch about it in every thread.
    Yes. Yes I do.

    More at 11.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    besides having just out of reach or bigger shit coming is bullshit if done every time. Why can't the heroes have tangible victories? I think thats why most people hated the ending. Because it wasn't dark and many think dark = mature
    Well, there's obviously more to it than that. Otherwise actual fans wouldn't have been irritated enough to burn a few hours writing about it (and even if they do have free time, they would otherwise have been talking about other stuff online).

  10. #30

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    If you do it every single thread than you are a troll.

    I only see a few consistently talk about it, and the ones who do bitch are usually just whiny brats with nothing better to do (retcoclive is this, pr0nongo is as well seeing as fucking gradius had to point out when some of his criticism was bullshit, and who basically sticks his fingers in his ears saying "lah lah lah lah your wrong I'm not listening lah lah lah). Gradius doesn't like it but he doesn't pop up every thread bitching about it, and Turalyon expresses critique in a reasoned way. Saying "wha this sux your an idiot for liking it or saying it's not canon even though Blizzard THE GUYS who make it say it is, and criticising WOL even when Brood war and SC1 have similar flaws, or posting in a topic intended to post honest ideas with derailing posts that add nothing is kind of childish. And yes, I do think most of the complainers on the forum are whiny brats.

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