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Thread: [Necro] How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

  1. #11

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    General response:

    -I understand the desire to keep the zerg 'dark,' but I'm not fond of the idea of keeping the zerg dark for the sake of it. You reference their motives, but at this point, what are they? Under the Overmind, it was to achieve perfection via assimilating the protoss. Under Kerrigan, it was a dedication to that mission with the desire for revenge. Come HotS, we're guessing that Kerrigan will achieve revenge, and the quest for perfection has been expressed to be unachievable by Abathur, not to mention that it's more a by-product of the Dark Voice. So come the end of HotS, what are the motives of the zerg then? I'd rather them go into isolation or something rather them being evil for the sake of it and prolonging their welcome in the setting.

    -Concerning the Scourge, isn't it effectively neutralized? Sure, there's some remaining Cult of the Damned outposts but Bolvar's keeping it idle, and it's basically a shell of what it once was. It's kind of what I imagine for Kerrigan, of keeping the zerg in line.

  2. #12

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    I think that at the end Kerrigan will be the one to face Amon in single combat with a combination of both zerg and protoss powers. I think LOTV will mostly have the protoss come into own, and hold their own. However the hybrids are the protoss and zerg. Alone, the Protoss may not have what it takes in numbers. The zerg also fought with the hybrids in In Utter Darkness

  3. #13

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    I understand the desire to keep the zerg 'dark,' but I'm not fond of the idea of keeping the zerg dark for the sake of it.
    I totally agree. The idea of the 'metamorph' as VoK outlined comes with the possibility that the Zerg can become good (in a manner of speaking). Given that the Zerg have been responsible for all the trauma in the sector so far, if they were all to gain the ability for higher intelligence and free will, a large number of them could potentially start feeling a moral imperative to begin being good. No matter which you cut it, they will no longer be Zerg (in the original sense) if this happens. This is not necessarily a bad thing (see below).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawki View Post
    So come the end of HotS, what are the motives of the zerg then?
    This is a very good question, but I suspect that this has already been answered. From their very inception,the Zerg are, were (down to their original parasitic forms on Zerus - unless they expand the Overmind retcon to incorporate the nature of their original forms, too) and still nothing more than feral animals looking to expand. Their current evolved forms are solely as a result of this innate imperative. In some ways, the current Zerg are evolutionary bottle-necked into doing what they were created for. They are what they are. This was what I originally thought purity of essence meant long before the books and other stuff "enlightened" us.

    The 'metamorph' idea has the prospect of shattering that Zerg purity of essence I mentioned. This concept has mileage if handled correctly. One could imagine the Zerg breaking free from their pre-destined role of being the next incarnation of Xel'Naga through the loss of this purity of essence and becoming something completely different entirely like being 'truly free'. Man, I can just about feel all the hate now if such a thing were to happen though...
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  4. #14
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    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Concerning how Metzen is a one trick pony the plot line seen in the Leaked ending is only to be expected as accurate.

    As stated, SC is basically turning into Warcraft in Space.

    In SC1, the Zerg are the Scourge, Kerrigan is basically Arthas and Nerzul is the Overmind. They fight to resist the Burning Legion um I mean... the Dark Voice who is really a Titan like Sargaras -Fck... I mean... Xel'naga.

    You get my point?

    When Arthas dies in WoW, he atones for his atrocities when it's revealed he was holding back the Scourge the whole time; proving his humanity was in fact still intact deep within him. It's then unveiled that the Scourge is more like a wild beastly force that has to be controlled and thus another steps into that position.
    The same will parrallel with SC I bet.
    Kerrigan proves herself, and takes it upon her self to guide the Zerg, keeping them under control instead of in use of the Burning Legion - I mean Dark Voice.

    See what I mean?

    It's sad.

    Ugh.

    Damn you Metzen.

    I want the Grim SC1 back... *sigh*

  5. #15

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    It's actually rather funny to see how many times they can recycle the same mechanics, plot, execution, etc. before they start feeling like they aren't doing a good job.

  6. #16

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Honestly, grim is getting dull, and considering how ruthless kerrigan is shaping out to be, as well as the fact that her past sins will play a major role it's probably going to be darker than WOL, and how did arthas achieve atonement? In the story edge of night when Sylvannas encounters him in the afterlife she actually feels sorry for him when she sees how much agony he's in. And this is someone who fucking hates him. There are similarities but differences as well. Kerrigan didn't choose to become a monster, and in many ways it could be said she's a victim. Arthas choose to use frostmourne regardless of the cost. The Zerg going bestial was in Brood War, and Arthas ultimately goes to hell if Edge of night is to be believed (and his final words show he feels only darkness in the end.) And no being grim for the sake of it is stupid, and Metzen implied that he regretted making Brood War overly dark due to his own shit. Why must every ending be grim and depressing even at best? I want Raynor to overcome the ghosts of his past, I want Kerrigan to acheieve redemption for her sins, I want Zeratul to face his doubts, I want the protoss to escape extinction, and I want humanity to have a chance at a real future. Why does everyone seem to think that if it's as dark as warhammer it's mature?

  7. #17

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Kerrigan didn't choose to become a monster, and in many ways it could be said she's a victim. Arthas choose to use frostmourne regardless of the cost.
    This interpretation does nothing but reinforce negative gender stereotypes: males are always arrogant, actiony-types that get into trouble and become evil because of it whilst women are all just victims that need to be saved. Ugh.

    One of the good things to come out from BW was to show that Kerrigan, a female, was not just a victim. She was portrayed as such in Sc1 (prior to infestation) but had moved on from that as shown in BW. Sure, she was petulant and had a huge chip on her shoulder (all "put-upon" characters have these traits really) but for good reason. It wasn't just because she was doing these things because she was a female. It was refreshing at the time because there was a dearth of good female characters in all types of fiction.

    WoL intimates a reversal of this, which is understandably off-putting. HoTS has a chance to bring it up again but the nagging feeling that a "reset button" (sadly, the artifact has to have this effect in order for it not to be a totally useless and time-wasting Macguffin - if not, it relegates WoL as being completely unnecessary in the scheme of things) for has been pushed does not bode well.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    Why must every ending be grim and depressing even at best? I want Raynor to overcome the ghosts of his past, I want Kerrigan to acheieve redemption for her sins, I want Zeratul to face his doubts, I want the protoss to escape extinction, and I want humanity to have a chance at a real future. Why does everyone seem to think that if it's as dark as warhammer it's mature?
    If the universe is initially presented and constantly reinforced with the framework of "grim where hope is a hard-fought victory in itself", it is expected for that universe to continue in such a fashion to maintain consistency and plausibility. Otherwise, you risk alienating the targeted audience and undermining the core reason for why it was created in the first place.

    One has to consider that all those things you want above does not necessarily preclude them from happening in such a framework as long as it is done properly. Raynor's redemption in WoL comes largely from an obvious plot contrivance which gives him back more than what he ever hoped for. Along with this, the apparent ease at which he does this doesn't really sell the idea that we are in the same universe.
    Last edited by Turalyon; 09-01-2012 at 11:28 PM.
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  8. #18

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    That's a fair enough point about women characters, but at the same time

    a.) even in brood war she relied on Duran quite a bit

    b.) the tie in material implies that Kerrigan always had issues with vengeance (she brutally executed her sadistic instructor by deepfrying his brain for christ sakes.) This begs the question; did the overmind have total control and the infestation caused everything (i personally don't think so); was it all hers (again, unlikely. The protoss never really wronged her except for when Tassadar outsmarted her, and she expressed willingness to kill Raynor despite knowing that he still cared for her)

    or did the infestation simply bring out the darkness within her own heart, while at the same time amplifying rage and other traits that were already there. That is a potentially interesting standpoint. How much of her queen of blades persona was the zerg infestation, and how much was her own anger and rage? She may have had some degree of free will, but I strongly think that the infestation did amplify some of the more dark elements of her personality (obsession with vengeance, willingness to do whatever it took to get what she wanted). It could easily be that the artifact wasn't so much a reset button as it removed enough of the infestation that her some of her more positive traits (loyalty, empathy, bravery) resurfaced. It's a bit of both; she wasn't wholly herself, but she wasn't exactly brainwashed either.



    3.) While this is a ymmv I feel that with the exception of safe haven one could make a case as to why in universe raynor had to fight obscenely hard to achieve his aims (with Korhal they could have just been doing a get in get out raid, with Char they were being aided by the Dominion Military and were only facing the forces Kerrigan left behind on Char, Maw of the void they had Valerian's aid building battleships). And while it's cliche I still feel that making judgement before the story is over is.....well foolish.

  9. #19

    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    How much of her queen of blades persona was the zerg infestation, and how much was her own anger and rage? She may have had some degree of free will, but I strongly think that the infestation did amplify some of the more dark elements of her personality (obsession with vengeance, willingness to do whatever it took to get what she wanted). It could easily be that the artifact wasn't so much a reset button as it removed enough of the infestation that her some of her more positive traits (loyalty, empathy, bravery) resurfaced. It's a bit of both; she wasn't wholly herself, but she wasn't exactly brainwashed either.
    I'm not adverse to this idea if this is what the game is really telling us but all the recent revelations make it too unclear and the fact that WoL's storytelling is not sophisticated enough to telegraph that viewpoint. Even then. there is a real danger of alienating people when uprooting characters that were quite definitive beforehand with sudden revelations - that danger is of becoming soap-operish.

    If what you say is true, however, you have to prepare yourself with the possibility that Kerrigan may still be "evil" (to put it bluntly), which I know is something that you'd dislike, because your interpretation does not discount that possibility whereas the "reset button" does. I'd think that those who wish to see Kerrigan "good" again would pin hope on the "reset button" interpretation as being correct because that would mean Kerrigan would no doubt be good again.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    And while it's cliche I still feel that making judgement before the story is over is.....well foolish.
    What with Blizzard intending each installment to be stand-alone (not even sure what Blizz means by this anymore), in a sense, Raynor's story is finished. We can judge that part at the least.
    Last edited by Turalyon; 09-02-2012 at 02:27 AM.
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  10. #20
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    Default Re: How do you think the final battle of Heart of the Swarm will play out

    Being Grim and Dark doesn't mean it can't end with an happy ending; it just means that in general, it should feel as if hope is still dangling even after victory. At the end, there's always that hanging doubt "so hope has won, today... but what of Metamorphs? Will they realize her purpose is soon at an end and take the Zerg on a new righteous rampage of instinctively driven evolution?"

    In SC1, part of the Grim feeling was that prior to Duran's unveiling of the Xel'naga Cycle (or hints to it), all three races were just there, battling each other for their own reasons. It wasn't like Warcraft or even Warhammer: 40,000 where there are GREAT EVILS that in the end, is the true enemy and blah blah blah.
    I liked SC1 where each faction, no matter how much like the good guy they may seem? Would still have such flaws innate within them that it wouldn't be far fetched to see how they could go wrong and become vile themselves.

    The Zerg were initially just looking for Perfection. They were ravenous animals following their instinct. Imagine if Bears just all decided to form clans and packs and figured out we were the best meal on the menu and there was enough of us to ensure they grew and procreated wonderfully. What are we to do to stop that? We cannot like... convince them to be "hey... why can't we be friends? We both like fish! I'm a fan of Catfish actually" . . .
    That's just weak; and highly unlikely that we save ourselves by saying "there is good in everything" when the concept of "good" is from a moral stand point which; depending on the side of the line your on? Is different every view!
    One of the reasons the Overmind was my favorite character in SC1 was because, despite how one sided it's character was? It was just an super smart animal doing what it thought was best for it's kind. It's morals justified the assimilation of species and to ensure the Zerg were never under threat? They'd often consume those who were not worthy of assimilation. It's harsh, but it's no different than Ant colonies stealing the young of other ant species to get the job done or completely raiding another colony for the food and leaving them to die. It's a cycle of life, and the Zerg just upped the scale to a stellar level.
    Unfortunately, retcon ruins this feeling by saying the Overmind in fact had no will, was going against the instinct following the Dark Voice's directives and some how still has this "hope" thing come up when he lies to his cerebrates and brings up Kerrigan. The whole SC1 feeling is just gone.
    You couple that with Kerrigan now the leader, and the Zerg are under mercy of a character who is trying to prove her humanity when honestly? It didn't matter because she's now Zerg...
    If anything, I wish the story line would have her realize that she needs to forgive and forget who she was, because she's no longer human. She's Zerg to the bone and needs to lead, think and feel for the Zerg. They are her home, her heart and her kind.
    But nooooo
    It's sounding just like Wrath of the Lich King's ending: -I'll hold the Scourge back. They are just mindless animals, they know not what they do; and I'm kind'a undead now anyway. But um, hey! For the Alliance!-
    Damnit...
    Hate that...

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