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Thread: Revamping the Dark Pylon

  1. #11

    Default Re: Revamping the Dark Pylon

    I like the idea of the Dark Pylon becoming the Protoss' second defense. An efficient and powerful Photon Cannon, and an ability-powered Dark Pylon

    Perhaps a structure oriented active ability? The Dark Pylon can infuse another Pylon with Void Energy, temporarily granting a cloaking field to said Pylon that affects units and buildings (aside from Nexus, Dark Pylon and other Pylons).

    You don't need a Dark Pylon or Mothership to go for Cloaking Proxy Pylon, very useful for early game raid discouragement (cloaked Photon Cannons... scary thought!)


    -Psi
    Last edited by PsiWarp; 05-12-2009 at 07:43 PM.
    >>You Must Construct Additional Pylons<<

  2. #12

    Default Re: Revamping the Dark Pylon

    Before I second Matt, I'm gonna commend you on the thought you put into this suggestion Jonny. The ideas might not make it into the game but at least they get us thinking and this point in the game, that's what we need. Onto the nitty-gritty...


    Neutron Field is, potentially, horrendously imbalanced. When your buildings (that don't only cost food, but PROVIDE IT!) start gathering your minerals for you, we're in big trouble. The worst thing about it is that unlike Matt's suggestion, the huge mana cost means you can only cast it every once in a while.

    Why is that bad? Because it's a lot easier to gain 100% of the effect of an ability on long cooldown than it is for an ability whose cooldown passes every few seconds. The whole point of these mechanics is to add macro to the game. An ability that you have to activate once every two minutes (because of its high energy cost, required for its insanely powerful effect) does not add sufficient macro. Abilities with smaller effects and smaller costs -- ones you have to recast often -- are much better... but those run the risk of becoming tedious. Hey, no one said that coming up with excellent suggestions was a piece of cake!

    If you still don't see the problem, just think about it this way. Dark Pylons are essentially expansions (especially thanks to Blink) that are hidden away in the safety of your own base. Since resource gathering is one of the key concepts of the game, you will always want to build more and more of these things, and once you run out of resources in one base, just blink 'em all over to an expansion and set up shop there. It promotes turtling and, if successful, gives you a huge economical boost over your opponent. These are not things we want to add into the game.

    Rejuvenate... eh. I don't like the idea of the Dark Pylon having a bunch of completely random abilities. They need to have some sort of theme and feel as though they belong on the same building. Here you have resource gathering + food supply + blink + healing, and it seems about as random as it gets.

    Create Power Field, once I figured out what you meant, actually sounds like the most interesting idea of the bunch. Resource boost vs. supply could be an interesting trade-off... but I have trouble coming up with ways to take advantage of it. We come back to the dilemma of "building more is always a good idea" and the player starts to think, "should I have more units, or have a DP for money and healing the units I have." That sort of micro-intensive mentality, at the cost of numbers in units, can really turn this in the direction of WC3... and again, that is not something that we want.
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  3. #13

    Default Re: Revamping the Dark Pylon

    Quote Originally Posted by pure.Wasted View Post

    Neutron Field is, potentially, horrendously imbalanced. When your buildings (that don't only cost food, but PROVIDE IT!) start gathering your minerals for you, we're in big trouble.
    Actually that sounds like cool idea. Why not have a resource gathering method that doesnt cause supply? You could structure it so that you can eventually replace all your workers with the upgraded gathering method and use the freed up supply for combat units.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure.Wasted View Post


    Why is that bad? Because it's a lot easier to gain 100% of the effect of an ability on long cooldown than it is for an ability whose cooldown passes every few seconds. The whole point of these mechanics is to add macro to the game. An ability that you have to activate once every two minutes (because of its high energy cost, required for its insanely powerful effect) does not add sufficient macro.
    But if there are multiple DPs that you activate every 2 min then you are really activating a DP every couple seconds depending upon how many DPs you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure.Wasted View Post
    Abilities with smaller effects and smaller costs -- ones you have to recast often -- are much better...
    .
    I dissagree. I think workers should be the small cost/small effect gathering method. Since Macro mechanics require you to camera shift back to your base they should be more powerful. This way the player wont get angry they are taken away from the battle.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure.Wasted View Post
    gives you a huge economical boost over your opponent. These are not things we want to add into the game.

    I thought huge economical boosts were what we did want to add to the game.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Revamping the Dark Pylon

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur View Post
    Actually that sounds like cool idea. Why not have a resource gathering method that doesnt cause supply? You could structure it so that you can eventually replace all your workers with the upgraded gathering method and use the freed up supply for combat units.
    Because it completely changes the Protoss' resource gathering mechanic in relation to the other races... and the benefit is not nearly so great as for the ridiculous balancing work that would necessarily ensue to be worth it. There's plenty of similarly "meh" economy-related ideas that wouldn't require Blizz to overhaul Protoss economy and unit/building/upgrade costs, as well as unit supply costs (given that everyone would suddenly have an overabundance of Pylons and a notable lack of workers).

    But if there are multiple DPs that you activate every 2 min then you are really activating a DP every couple seconds depending upon how many DPs you have.
    No, it's not the same, because if you throw all your DPs into the same hotkey, all you have to do is go back to your base and go DPHK+ability+minerals, rinse repeat for every Pylon that you have. Given that not even pro players are perfect, chances are that the Pylon cooldown rates would quickly become uniform so that going back every 10 seconds as the cooldown evens out wouldn't even be possible, let alone necessary.

    I thought huge economical boosts were what we did want to add to the game.
    Not quite. What we want to do is add macro. Whether we do that through economical boosts or through some other means is completely up in the air. The Zerg have received no economical boosts (apart from Larvae, but the link between them and your economy is far too indirect compared to the T/P mechanics) and they're doing just fine.

    In fact, I don't like the idea of adding economy benefits. I think that given this game's focus around the economy, they will always be too powerful. Getting more money is always a good thing, so if you have a safe way to go about it (turtle> DP), a player is going to choose to do that until his economy advantage is so sizable he can 1+a+2+a to win.
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  5. #15

    Default Re: Revamping the Dark Pylon

    Quote Originally Posted by pure.Wasted View Post
    Because it completely changes the Protoss' resource gathering mechanic in relation to the other races... and the benefit is not nearly so great as for the ridiculous balancing work that would necessarily ensue to be worth it. There's plenty of similarly "meh" economy-related ideas that wouldn't require Blizz to overhaul Protoss economy and unit/building/upgrade costs, as well as unit supply costs (given that everyone would suddenly have an overabundance of Pylons and a notable lack of workers).
    Dont worry about balancing. Thats Dustin's job.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure.Wasted View Post
    No, it's not the same, because if you throw all your DPs into the same hotkey, all you have to do is go back to your base and go DPHK+ability+minerals, rinse repeat for every Pylon that you have. Given that not even pro players are perfect, chances are that the Pylon cooldown rates would quickly become uniform so that going back every 10 seconds as the cooldown evens out wouldn't even be possible, let alone necessary.
    Maybe. I think we would have to playtest the mechanic to see which one of us is right.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure.Wasted View Post
    Not quite. What we want to do is add macro. Whether we do that through economical boosts or through some other means is completely up in the air. The Zerg have received no economical boosts (apart from Larvae, but the link between them and your economy is far too indirect compared to the T/P mechanics) and they're doing just fine.
    The Macro system in SC1 gives resource and production advantage. Extra Larvae is an example of production advantage. Resource advantage is definatly a valid option for recreating the SC1 macro system.



    Quote Originally Posted by pure.Wasted View Post
    Getting more money is always a good thing, so if you have a safe way to go about it (turtle> DP), a player is going to choose to do that until his economy advantage is so sizable he can 1+a+2+a to win.
    In SC1 building workers was always a good thing but that doesnt mean that everyone always did it.

  6. #16

    Default Re: Revamping the Dark Pylon

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur View Post
    In SC1 building workers was always a good thing but that doesnt mean that everyone always did it.

    Eh? Someone played the game WITHOUT building workers? I'd like to see that (and no, SCV rushes don't count).


    But seriously, I have to say that I agree with pure.Wasted in pretty much everything he said about the suggestion. The thing with macro mechanics is (in my opinion) that they shouldn't just reward a player who comes constantly back to his base to perform an nth number of clicks, but they should reward a player who comes back to his base to perform an nth number of clicks and knows what he's doing. The actions tied to the macro mechanic must be meaningful, there should be either an element of timing involved or some sort of trade-off, a disadvantage that goes with the benefit and balances it out (and that can make the use of the macro mechanic at the wrong moment or for the wrong reason detrimental to the player).

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Revamping the Dark Pylon

    Sorry if this is a noob idea or thread hijacking, but here are some thoughts I had reading this thread:

    The dark pylon could be warped in to a location similar to Protoss units (except only by Dark Protoss units like stalkers or DTs) and boosts both worker movement speed and the quality of what the resources that the workers are taking to their base. Let’s say for the sake of argument that movement speed is increased by 25% and that resource output under the effect is increased by 30%. Let’s say that the dark pylon returns to the oldest Nexus and deactivates when an energy reserve runs out. However, the dark pylon can be used on any player’s units in the game. If a Protoss player uses a dark pylon on any player other than herself or an allied player, she gets a 150% match of whatever is collected under the dark pylon’s influence because its warped away or whatever fluff works.

    I’m pretty much a scrub player with no skill to speak of, but I think if I were in this position such a mechanic would give me some pretty serious options to think over. If I could get a DT or stalker to my enemy’s supply line, is it more advantageous to get more minerals for myself at the cost of giving them a boost as well, or just attack the supply line altogether? Similarly, if I were to suddenly see a dark pylon appear, do I want to take advantage of it or deny the owner the gains through either destroying the pylon or moving my workers away? Do I want to take advantage to a point and then stop all my workers? Do I want to bolster my defenses or leave an invitation for the Protoss player to come back?
    Last edited by deadpool; 05-14-2009 at 01:55 PM.

  8. #18
    Pandonetho's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Revamping the Dark Pylon

    Disclaimer: I didn't read the thread.

    With that said, I have one thing to comment on that caught my eye.

    In SC1 building workers was always a good thing but that doesnt mean that everyone always did it.
    It's called being a noob. If you aren't 24/7 building workers, you're losing. Simple as that.

  9. #19

    Default Re: Revamping the Dark Pylon

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandonetho View Post
    Disclaimer: I didn't read the thread.

    With that said, I have one thing to comment on that caught my eye.



    It's called being a noob. If you aren't 24/7 building workers, you're losing. Simple as that.

    Even pros have trouble keeping up perfect production in the late game.

  10. #20

    Default Re: Revamping the Dark Pylon

    Quote Originally Posted by deadpool View Post
    I’m pretty much a scrub player with no skill to speak of, but I think if I were in this position such a mechanic would give me some pretty serious options to think over. If I could get a DT or stalker to my enemy’s supply line, is it more advantageous to get more minerals for myself at the cost of giving them a boost as well, or just attack the supply line altogether? Similarly, if I were to suddenly see a dark pylon appear, do I want to take advantage of it or deny the owner the gains through either destroying the pylon or moving my workers away? Do I want to take advantage to a point and then stop all my workers? Do I want to bolster my defenses or leave an invitation for the Protoss player to come back?
    This is kinda what I was going for, even tho your idea is a bit different. When I made my whole idea on the DP, I really wanted to focus on making it harder to make decisions. I figured giving the DP blink would be a good way to do that, that way your not just building 1 DP for X, and another for Y. The thing that made my idea imbalenced was my neutron field idea. I really wouldnt mind if Proton Change stayed.

    My thread from the start shouldve just been: give blink to the Dark Pylon. I think that wouldve saved me trouble.
    Last edited by Crazy_Jonny; 05-14-2009 at 05:54 PM.

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