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Thread: About the colossus

  1. #21

    Default Re: About the colossus

    Yeah that's the point Drop. It's the choice of style. Basically like MarineKing. If you're going mass infantry then exploit your mobile army to take way more expansions. The protoss then has better units and more tech but terran hopes to overwhelm him with numbers. The way the terran sniped the colossus is simple. Double pronged attacks.

    The colossus ball has to stick together. So the terran did things like attack the 2nd base when protoss army was on the ledge at the third base. The army would move down the ramp and the colossus on the cliffs start to hit the terran attack. Then another group of marauders would come in from the xel'naga tower and gold ramp stim and kill as many colossus as they could. Terran did this a few times then toss splits his army a bit. Then terran makes one big attack on the weak side and uses a small force to poke at holes from the protoss army moving to deal with the big attack.

    This whole style is basically what MarineKing has specialised in. Hitting weak points. Attacking multiple places at once. Forcing the opponent to stay in his base. And all the while MarineKing expands a lot. It's almost like a zerg style. Like mutaling. It doesn't do super well in a straight up fight but just by constantly harassing zerg can get up more expansions and get upgrades and the tech to get units that counter colossus better.

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  2. #22
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    Default Re: About the colossus

    The problem with colossus stems from the fact that gateway units are horrible. They lose out in cost against staple units (eg roach, roach/hydra, MMM). It's not even a close battle. a 120 vs 120 supply battle of gateway vs any of those compositions results in a massive loss. You'll lose just about everything while he might lose only a few units.

    Protoss also has crap Tier 2 units. The immortal is, frankly, a piece of shit. It's only useful in small battles. It scales terribly in larger battles because it's footprint is so big. It sucks at establish a concave. The void ray is too expensive to be a transition unit; you have to commit to it for dividends to pay. The phoenix is too specialized to be a staple unit. So Protoss has to rely on T3 units to compete with T1/T1.5 units of Zerg and Terran.

  3. #23

    Default Re: About the colossus

    I feel it needs to be said, I have personally seen the strategy I outlined played successfully a few times, and it was disgusting to watch hoe effective it was. We've started seeing less and less Marauders because they're so damn good and everyone thinks they require no skill, just like when people started to ignore the Roach because it was so damn good and Blizzard had to nerf it. The increase in Protoss air play was strictly to counter the Marauder, and is now being countered by mass Marine, which has led to increased Colossus play, which has led to the counter of Vikings. Skipping the Vikings and getting Marauders with Stim does work, just like in beta. Especially if you're using Ghosts to EMP Sentries and Zealots.

  4. #24
    Gradius's Avatar Administrator
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    Default Re: About the colossus

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    I feel it needs to be said, I have personally seen the strategy I outlined played successfully a few times, and it was disgusting to watch hoe effective it was. We've started seeing less and less Marauders because they're so damn good and everyone thinks they require no skill, just like when people started to ignore the Roach because it was so damn good and Blizzard had to nerf it. The increase in Protoss air play was strictly to counter the Marauder, and is now being countered by mass Marine, which has led to increased Colossus play, which has led to the counter of Vikings. Skipping the Vikings and getting Marauders with Stim does work, just like in beta. Especially if you're using Ghosts to EMP Sentries and Zealots.
    Any unit, not just the Marauder, can take out the colossus if it manages to safely get a jump on it. But in a regular battle, running some marauders into his Zealots and Stalkers to try to get to the Colossus in the back is suicidal & counter-intuitive.

    If you want an alternative Colossus counter, it's the Banshee. It does more DPS to Colossi than Vikings do. This unit can transition from a harass unit to a Colossus killer.

  5. #25

    Default Re: About the colossus

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Any unit, not just the Marauder, can take out the colossus if it manages to safely get a jump on it. But in a regular battle, running some marauders into his Zealots and Stalkers to try to get to the Colossus in the back is suicidal & counter-intuitive.

    If you want an alternative Colossus counter, it's the Banshee. It does more DPS to Colossi than Vikings do. This unit can transition from a harass unit to a Colossus killer.
    1. I'm just reporting my own experiences watching its success. Its not like you have to do it too to win. I was simply offering an alternative to the current "I'll get Vikings which will be pretty useless afterwards" play.

    2. I agree on the Banshee point. I think the only reasons Vikings are used more is the ease of transitioning from double-pumping Medevacs to Vikings, and the extra range.

  6. #26

    Default Re: About the colossus

    Quote Originally Posted by 0mar View Post
    The problem with colossus stems from the fact that gateway units are horrible. They lose out in cost against staple units (eg roach, roach/hydra, MMM). It's not even a close battle. a 120 vs 120 supply battle of gateway vs any of those compositions results in a massive loss. You'll lose just about everything while he might lose only a few units.

    Protoss also has crap Tier 2 units. The immortal is, frankly, a piece of shit. It's only useful in small battles. It scales terribly in larger battles because it's footprint is so big. It sucks at establish a concave. The void ray is too expensive to be a transition unit; you have to commit to it for dividends to pay. The phoenix is too specialized to be a staple unit. So Protoss has to rely on T3 units to compete with T1/T1.5 units of Zerg and Terran.
    This depends a lot on scouting. I always eyeball my opponent's upgrade level when I scout bioball/rohydra. Exact unit composition is also a factor. Too heavy on marines or hydras, and the force is an easy nut to crack. On the opposite side, I will mix in immortals and sentries to my blinkers/chargelots/voids.

    I rarely use colossi as they are too slow for my attack style and are fairly easy to counter, although I am readjusting my blinker/chargelot/voids combo since patch 1.2. Typically, I like to run a 3-base toss on this. It's the minimum for me to tech switch into the more gas intensive portion of my favorites.

    Countering is very simple. You can use the squid's terran approach or you can use vikings. Vikes give a double bonus as they also effectively counter void support. I personally use a viking/tank combo with a small bioball for zealot support, though it is tough to pull off. PvP, I stick with the blinkers after baiting any zealot support into my own zealots (expends the charge). Blinker support is handled by my own blinkers and voids. Banshees are a valid counter, but are vulnerable to stalkers/voids if the smart toss has a couple observers handy. EMP can be helpful as well. For Zerg, use a mix of all three Spire units and a few infestors for fungal/NP. On a personal note, seeing a void/colossi mix tends to make me long for some scourges .
    Last edited by flak4321; 02-10-2011 at 03:25 PM. Reason: added banshees, EMP, infestor comments
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  7. #27
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: About the colossus

    "Not for those with overinflated egos"

    Why the hell is Idra there? Also, my ego can barely be contained within teh internets so I guess this isn't for me.



    Rest In Peace, Old Friend.

  8. #28

    Default Re: About the colossus

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    [...]We've started seeing less and less Marauders because they're so damn good and everyone thinks they require no skill, just like when people started to ignore the Roach because it was so damn good and Blizzard had to nerf it.
    No. i dont want to be mean, but this kind of reasoning only applies to scrubs. Not saying you are one, but anyone letting others opinon on what may or may not "require skill" influence how they play, is by definition a scrub and cant be effectively compared to anyone playing with a more open mind.

    The increase in Protoss air play was strictly to counter the Marauder, and is now being countered by mass Marine, which has led to increased Colossus play, which has led to the counter of Vikings. Skipping the Vikings and getting Marauders with Stim does work, just like in beta. Especially if you're using Ghosts to EMP Sentries and Zealots.
    I dont play the matchup, but i still feel like this is a gross oversimplification that can lead to some misunderstandings.

    there is an an interesting dynamic between Marauder / colossus; given numeric advantage and / or vast spaces and distances, marauders can perform well through flanking and minimizing stacked splash damage (while long distances provide time for mobilizing reinforcements & picking more than one spot to make a stand at) ... on the other hand, if circumstances gives a Protoss time to field enough GW(+immortal) support, and/or opportunity to force a prolonged battle in confined spaces (or even on very open ground with enough quality FF placement) this can flatout dominate an MMM army and if that happens close enough to T home, its a game ending move.

    Ghosts can ofcourse interfere with this, but we dont see that as much anymore.... i would speculate that this is because Ghosts are expensive on gas and buildtime, witch delays other tech transitions(vikings?) or upgrade-aggressive play and that its kind of chancy; a good P might be able to pick some ghosts off before they land good EMPS, and will certainly spread their sentries out...
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  9. #29

    Default Re: About the colossus

    Well I haven't been playing much lately todie. But like 4-5ish weeks ago over 70% of terrans on the EU server were getting a blind early ghost academy against me. One thing you missed out todie is the current standard PvT build of 3 gate robo.

    Terrans are now almost always sure that you'll open robotics facility. So they anticipate at least some immortals. Which can be countered by marines/ghost EMP. That and early FE from toss relies on sentries which again ghost EMP is good at. Plus colossus has 150 shields and have a tendency to hang within range of an EMP that hits other toss units as well. Plus considering MMM is still popular and few terrans are in a huge rush to get to medivacs mixing in some ghosts provides a guaranteed AOE damage of 100 and the gas should be sufficient if they stay longer on barracks before getting up to medivacs.

    Obviously it was a long time ago that I encountered a lot of terrans playing that way but it is still a pretty good build. I might have some time to ladder again then maybe that won't be popular anymore but it still is pretty good. Making an aggressive push when two ghosts have enough for EMP and stim is done. Also helps that EMP has a radius of 2 while storm has a radius of 1.5.

    EDIT: Plus a smart terran who only has marine marauder and ghosts scans you before engaging kills off the observer, possibly cloaks his ghost then EMPs your sentries before engaging. Oh and protoss doesn't want to make the battle last too long. Sentry energy runs out then if the terran army is still big it'll be harder for toss to win the fight.
    Last edited by JackhammerIV; 02-11-2011 at 11:39 AM.

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  10. #30
    dustinbrowder's Avatar Banned
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    Default Re: About the colossus

    I'm more worried about PvP state with 4 gates. Colossus is fine in PvT and PvZ and depends how someone use it and their skill.

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