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Runei
06-26-2009, 11:20 PM
Multiple Building Selection. With MULEs, Proton Charge, and Spawn Larvae also a factor. Would you guys think a reasonable modification for macro would be to allow Zerg to maintain their higher production rates by only requiring 1 click/hotkey to spawn as many selected larvae instead of requiring the re-selection of that unit to spawn (Click or press H 12 times to get 12 Hydralisks queued up, or just 1 click/hotkey?). One control group can have 24 hatches in theory though x 3 (larva) which could spawn 72 units at once, about 140 zlings (overpowered?). I've been musing over ways to give zerg the edge back to unit production with MBS, but I'm not sure if this is quite the right way. Please feel free to rant on how insanely overpowered this is or how it could be tweaked to be a manageable zerg characteristic. Any/all (even flame) feedback is appreciated. Thank you!

PsiWarp
06-26-2009, 11:22 PM
I forget where, but I heard holding Tab with production buildings selected will create 1 unit per building, instead of 1 every click for every building then back to the first.


-Psi

Nicol Bolas
06-27-2009, 01:15 AM
Would you guys think a reasonable modification for macro would be to allow Zerg to maintain their higher production rates by only requiring 1 click/hotkey to spawn as many selected larvae instead of requiring the re-selection of that unit to spawn

No. Doing so will:

1: Not increase Zerg production rates. Really, if you can't have a high APM by spamming a single key, you're not worth playing the game.

2: Make it that much harder to have a fine level of control over your production.

Spamming a single key for a short space of time is perfectly legitimate. It takes some getting used to, but after that, no problem.

Worst-case scenario, you could do a key-combo (shift-key) to produce as many as possible. But the default should just be one.

GGTeMpLaR
06-27-2009, 01:22 AM
I heard if you hold shift (might have been a different key) while selecting to build a unit (with multiple buildings/larva selected), it will que that unit in each building/morph each larva.

Pretty sure I read it being hinted at in one of the reviews from when Koreans got to play the game about a month ago

ArcherofAiur
06-27-2009, 07:10 AM
We can ask for confimation of the shift thing on monday.

Kimera757
06-27-2009, 09:03 AM
It has been confirmed that you can press a key in order to transform all the larvae all at once, during the May Korean StarCraft II event. Due to translation errors and possible differences in keyboards, the exact key in question isn't reliably known.

Wow, that was Spock speak.

So zerg have it both ways on MBS; specificity (one unit at a time) or all at once.

ArcherofAiur
06-27-2009, 10:37 AM
LOL macroing is going to be so easy.

Kimera757
06-27-2009, 10:43 AM
It doesn't seem so easy for the zerg, given how they keep getting spanked, even in Battle Reports (and Sonkie vs Yellow) before the race-based macro mechanics came out.

The zerg almost always have fewer drones and only as many (often weaker) units as their non-zerg opponents.

Here are Dustin Browder's comments on the races:


Terran is the most "understandable" since many of the units look and behave like more real-world weapons. Protoss are the easiest to play since they have generally less micro with their units (no siege tanks) and their units are pretty tough so they are more forgiving of mistakes.

The Zerg are the hardest. Their economy is difficult to manage, many of their units are powerful but unforgiving if you make a mistake with them.

At least that's the way it feels to me.=)

Link: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=16474311111&postId=164724489418#164724489418

Emphasis added by me.

ArcherofAiur
06-27-2009, 11:04 AM
It doesn't seem so easy for the zerg, given how they keep getting spanked, even in Battle Reports (and Sonkie vs Yellow) before the race-based macro mechanics came out.


Its almost as if it was an unfinished game.

Kimera757
06-27-2009, 11:11 AM
Its almost as if it was an unfinished game.


LOL macroing is going to be so easy.

It's almost as if it was an unfinished game.

On a more serious note, do you have any suggestions about problems with the zerg economy?

ArcherofAiur
06-27-2009, 11:20 AM
Touche salesman :P

I could support a zerg mineral mechanic if it was warrented. If we get into beta and see its needed it shouldnt be too hard to come up with one. The queen is a really good macro agent so its easy to theorycraft around that.

Kimera757
06-27-2009, 11:27 AM
Touche salesman :P

I could support a zerg mineral mechanic if it was warrented. If we get into beta and see its needed it shouldnt be too hard to come up with one. The queen is a really good macro agent so its easy to theorycraft around that.

There's a fairly large clutch of people who don't like the new macro mechanics. They're not supposed to be a "you must use this thing", they're just a way for a more skilled player to crush a lesser-skilled player at a cost of time (and, frankly, boredom).

There's been so few Battle Reports, and never have the two players seemed equally skilled, so it's hard to say how big the problem is, but the zerg should be as balanced as any other race without using the macro mechanics (if the other player isn't using them), as well as if they use them (if the other player is using them).

ArcherofAiur
06-27-2009, 12:19 PM
There's a fairly large clutch of people who don't like the new macro mechanics. They're not supposed to be a "you must use this thing", they're just a way for a more skilled player to crush a lesser-skilled player at a cost of time (and, frankly, boredom).

There's been so few Battle Reports, and never have the two players seemed equally skilled, so it's hard to say how big the problem is, but the zerg should be as balanced as any other race without using the macro mechanics (if the other player isn't using them), as well as if they use them (if the other player is using them).

To be honest the new macro system is so much more forgiving then the old one which said "you must come back to your base or you cant get more minerals." Now micro players can continually increase their army without every coming back to the base. Though you are right, at the high levels of play(beyond casual) players will have to macro as well. But at a high level of play you have to be atleast proficent in everything. Even Iloveoov can micro.

Kimera757
06-27-2009, 12:27 PM
To be honest the new macro system is so much more forgiving then the old one which said "you must come back to your base or you cant get more minerals." Now micro players can continually increase their army without every coming back to the base.

However, zerg seem to have trouble in this area; they're just not getting as many drones and so, not as many minerals as other races.

(And another note, not related to this topic much, but the zerg always seem to get rushed, rather than the other way around. I don't like zergling rushes much, but zerg seem to get their spawning pool out after the enemy has got their first combat unit into the zerg base.)

unentschieden
06-27-2009, 12:37 PM
However, zerg seem to have trouble in this area; they're just not getting as many drones and so, not as many minerals as other races.

(And another note, not related to this topic much, but the zerg always seem to get rushed, rather than the other way around. I don't like zergling rushes much, but zerg seem to get their spawning pool out after the enemy has got their first combat unit into the zerg base.)

These 2 issues are connected. Zerg canīt get as many Drones/Zerglings because they both require Larvae. Hatcherys are simply to expensive early on to increase Lavare count without expanding (and having to build drones instead of Zerglings anyway)

What Zerg needed was a cheaper cource of Larvae, and thats why they got the Queen.

Kimera757
06-27-2009, 01:01 PM
These 2 issues are connected. Zerg canīt get as many Drones/Zerglings because they both require Larvae. Hatcherys are simply to expensive early on to increase Lavare count without expanding (and having to build drones instead of Zerglings anyway)

What Zerg needed was a cheaper cource of Larvae, and thats why they got the Queen.

That mechanic, however, requires a lot of work, as opposed to the terran and protoss, who can get by just making workers, an issue more pronounced in Sonkie vs Yellow and Battle Report 2, where the other races didn't have access to their own macro mechanics. There's an imbalance there; there's no reason one race's macro should require more skill than another race's macro.

Skyze
06-27-2009, 01:13 PM
Keep in mind, that is part of the identity of zerg though, in SC1, I used to play zerg for about 6 years, and I developed such a mind for "low-econ" play, that it was significantly harder to play toss/terran for a long time, because I wasnt used to always making probes/scvs.. In zerg, you can actually survive quite well with low drone count, where as protoss or terran, if you let your probe count slip, you are basically screwed.

I see Zerg working similar to sc1, in that their units will have such mobility and micro-ability that if you use them properly, they can be so devastating that you can afford to be slightly behind economy-wise for most of the game. Of course, now that we see this new age of "macro zergs" they will just get 3-6 bases like within the first 5 minutes of the game, and have enough zerglings early to defend.. I actually see this game working out to being imbalanced in zergs favor if anyone, in SC1 they pretty much already dominate, esp protoss.. if protoss doesnt fast expo, zerg pretty much automatically wins, and I see that being the case in SC2 also unfortunately, unless some kinda stalker rush can be used effectively to hop between the zergs expos without getting hit (very unlikely.)

Norfindel
06-28-2009, 09:28 AM
The problem is that it's too easy to macro. Making it easier will only make the problem worse.
Warp-in is the best of the implemented solutions until now, it makes macro more difficult in a way that doesn't feel forced, and the the reward isn't as simplistic, or mandatory, or balance-threatening as giving extra minerals, but is still a very good reward. Sadly, it's Protoss only, and isn't enough for pro-gamers to be as a challenge as in BW. But seriously, not too many things can be as APM consuming as the old interface.

Kimera757
06-28-2009, 09:34 AM
It makes macro more difficult

I don't know why people keep saying that. I have very little experience with StarCraft II, just at BlizzCon 2007, but warp-in is very easy.

But anyway, did you have any zerg suggestions that wouldn't be any more difficult than warp-in?

unentschieden
06-28-2009, 10:15 AM
Warp-in isnīt about economy Macro itīs Positioning Macro. It allows the Protoss to reinforce faster than the other races to positions with PylonPower. They are still behind in relative adaption speed though, Terrans effectivly get double production for "simple" units and Zerg build everything from Larvae(in this context a advantage).

Macro isnīt supposed to become harder but more complex. True that is a difficult distinction but exactly the point of "Easy to learn, hard to Master".

Pandonetho
06-28-2009, 11:50 AM
I forget where, but I heard holding Tab with production buildings selected will create 1 unit per building, instead of 1 every click for every building then back to the first.

I read this as well. It was in one of SCL's articles or something from the news forum.

In any case, I haven't seen the Zerg win in any battle yet like ever. Maybe 1, but yeah they're always getting shown who's boss. Seriously, must be because Kerrigan took over or something. We all know the overmind is way cooler.

Norfindel
06-28-2009, 11:56 AM
I don't know why people keep saying that. I have very little experience with StarCraft II, just at BlizzCon 2007, but warp-in is very easy.


Because it has no queue, and you need to touch more buttons, and you need to check regularily if there are Warp-gates available, etc. It's harder than just remembering to put another unit in the queue before it runs out. If you don't build another unit right when the Warpgate finishes it's timeout, you're wasting time.

Maybe it's not difficult to use, but you need to have a good timing, or you would build less units instead of more.

Pandonetho
06-28-2009, 12:03 PM
I never use Queues with normal buildings anyway, so I'm used to it.

unentschieden
06-28-2009, 01:31 PM
Because it has no queue, and you need to touch more buttons, and you need to check regularily if there are Warp-gates available, etc. It's harder than just remembering to put another unit in the queue before it runs out. If you don't build another unit right when the Warpgate finishes it's timeout, you're wasting time.

Maybe it's not difficult to use, but you need to have a good timing, or you would build less units instead of more.

There is also the "human rounding error". With queues you can queue up the next without wasting Resources, you will keep it producing with "perfect" timing.
With warp in you loose time simply because you most likely have something better to do when the CD finishes and you canīt "preorder". Also there is the element that you might delay production because you need to get your Pylon/Prism into position.

Warp-in IS a advantage but the comparativly shorter CD for units compared to production times is more about fairness instead of a explicit advantage of the mechanic.