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Perfecttear
06-24-2009, 02:24 PM
It's been along time since i posted a suggestion topic, but the recent battlereport has me inspired to make one about Zerg terrain traversing units.

There has alredy been in the past alot off debate about the zerg version off terrain traversing unit, going from rolling banelings to cliff jumping roaches. I know that each race has means of transportaion, medivas, overlord , warp prism, nydus cannal, warp in, but this is not the point off this topic and i wan't to talk about independent terrain traversing unit, and exspecially the zerg versions.

Seeing the infestor in br3 moving underground, gave me the idea that there should be an zerg damage dealing unit that, could move unerground while burrowed and that way trawerse cliffs and other obsticals. Not only would this make the most sense but it feels the most zerg.

This ability could be countered by having some observer units around your base, or if you are a terran, building a sensor tower.( basic stuff)
The ability could be balanced even more if the enemy could see the unit while moving by the terrain disruption it would make, and thus he could be able to predict or counter the attack.
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2565/underfround2.png

TERRAN
1) Reaper - jumps up and down cliffs using his jetpacks,
2) Viking - can overcome cliffs by transforming itself into aerial mode and then back.
PROTOSS
1) Stalker - can "blink" up and down cliffs.
2) Colossus - can simply walk over cliffs and back down.
ZERG
1) Infester - (not shure if he can trawerse cliffs while moving underground)


So what i am suggesting is, maybe an early tier zerg unit, capable off moving underground, and by that traversing different terrain an cliffs for harassment purporses, and with similar combat effectiveness as the reapers. The unit that would receive this burrowed movement should be balanced enough so it isn't op, and that it makes lore sense. The most lore sense makes the lurker, but he would be to strong off a unit, and he comes to late to receive this ability, not to mention that in sc2 he is a siege unit and not an harass unit. So this means that the unit that could receive this should be lower tier, be somewhat balanced, and have lore background. That doesn't leave us with much options. Unit that could possibly receive this ability: "Zergling, Roach, Hydralisk, Baneling."



So do you think that any off the current zerg unit could successfully receive this terrain burrow travelsing ability, and would be somewhat balanced and plausible.

If this would be implemented it would change the gameplay and stretegies for the zerg dramaticaly, thuss leaving the zerg race with alot more options and making them a more interesting race to play and to play against.


Fell free to discuss

Capsblock
06-24-2009, 02:30 PM
I thought of that aswell i mean some zergling should be able to evovle to something else than the baneling , like a "climbling" or "traversling" ofc it will get nerfed like less HP and/or less DPS. the idea of it all seems cool.we dont know anything about the Worms that works as tunnel , if they can be used in a zerg rush. it would be extremly deadly and yes im gonna say VERY COOL i mean poping up a worm at Terran guy who got all his units on the front in bunkers and then BAM a big fat worm and RAWR!!!!

The Protoss got that dropship thing that can act as pylon-area and is probably the same as the worm.

Warsaw
06-24-2009, 02:45 PM
Maybe have a slow walking unit that has a powerful but slow ground attack? But he can climb up cliffs and down them? But that might be to high tier...

IDK. Maybe zerg just shouldnt have the mechanic? I'm not sure what the balance issues would be but I would think you dont want every race to have the same mechanics that way it keeps it more unique.

Perfecttear
06-24-2009, 02:57 PM
IDK. Maybe zerg just shouldnt have the mechanic? I'm not sure what the balance issues would be but I would think you dont want every race to have the same mechanics that way it keeps it more unique.
Idk the burrow mowement would be pretty unique, and would have to be countered in a different way than the other races terrain travelsing units. The zerg could really use a fresh concept and tactic, to use against the enemy.
The burrow walking makes more sense to me that any other cliff jumping and climbing abilities for the zerg,it's different, and it has it's own downsides and counters. The only trouble is to find a zerg unit could use this ability without being op and making lore sense.And now since the nydus worm has been redesigned and isn't anymore such a good option for an stealth attack, a new concept could be usefuul for the zerg. The best solution would be if Blizzard would make a new unit designed and balanced around this ability. Maybe in the expansions?

The_Blade
06-24-2009, 03:15 PM
Even if you guys believe the Lurker having this ability is OP.

Its not, being high thier the ability it would posses would be quite balanced with decisions like: wether the ability is reserched or not. Unlike what you sugest, the lurker will not travel underground but rather have the ability to burrow into a wall.

This is the ability.

Wall tuneling: The lurker burrows into a wall with a higher terrain above it. When the lurker finishes to burrow he will appear on the higher terrain (burrowed)

This ability requires no energy but it takes the doble time to burrow or "cliff jump" whatever you like to call it.

Pandonetho
06-24-2009, 03:27 PM
Just because the 2 other races have means of traversing different tiers of terrain without transports doesn't mean Zerg should suddenly get one.

Triceron
06-24-2009, 04:39 PM
I'd actually like to see a unit that can pounce or hop up cliffs, like reapers. Zerglings have wings now, why couldn't there be a new unit with bigger wings that can leap around? Maybe it could be a command ability with a long range, sort of like Blink but with greater distance/cooldown.

MattII
06-24-2009, 04:45 PM
Wall tuneling: The lurker burrows into a wall with a higher terrain above it. When the lurker finishes to burrow he will appear on the higher terrain (burrowed)

I once proposed this for all the Zerg ground units, as a sort of alternative to using Nydus Worm (in the first incantation of the worm).

PsiWarp
06-24-2009, 05:25 PM
Though I support diversity, gameplay ideas that can potentially be fun, balanced and competitive creates many possibilities.

Some ideas on the Lurker:
-Lurker remains at Hive tech.
-Lurker is permanently invisible until initiating attack.
-Upon unleashing a wave of spines, the Lurker becomes visible.
-The Lurker becomes invisible after 3 seconds of idling or not attacking.
-There is no Burrow icon, only passive invisibility.
-The Lurker possess a toggle: Ambush and Conceal.
-When set on Ambush, the Lurker will auto acquire any enemy ground unit or building.
-When set on Conceal, the Lurker will not auto acquire targets.
-Conceal does not affect passive invisibility, must wait 3 seconds to become invisible if Lurker has attacked an enemy.
-Lurker can cliff crawl up and down terrain elevation.


-Psi

Perfecttear
06-24-2009, 05:28 PM
It would be nice if the infestor could move pass the cliffs while burrowed, it would make the unit even more awesome. Go into the enemy base and use neural parasite on some units he made , and use them for harrasment. :)
They should atleast allow the infestor to move up and down cliffs if the zerg don't have any other terrain travelsing unit. And the infestor is lategame unit, almost the same as the Colossus . So you can't say it's op:P

DemolitionSquid
06-24-2009, 05:34 PM
Zerg don't have a Cliff Climber for one very good reason.

Mutalisks.

They're quick to get, and very cheap. Why climb when you can fly?

Zerg don't need a Cliff Climber.

electricmole
06-24-2009, 05:51 PM
I won't sacrifice a new zerg cliff climb/jump unit with new gameplay mechanics for the damn mutualisk.

this is the problem with the zerg too many returning core attack units.

Lurker, zergling, hydralisk, ultralisk, mutualisk, broodlord which is just a guardian.

the damn hydralisk also is just stupid as anti air specially lorewise. i cant believe blizzard cater too much with sc1 zerg fanboys gameplay. the potential new interesting and fun gameplay for the zerg in sc2 is vast if only they take risk and remove most of these unit and place new ones.

Perfecttear
06-24-2009, 05:54 PM
Zerg don't have a Cliff Climber for one very good reason.

Mutalisks.

They're quick to get, and very cheap. Why climb when you can fly?

Zerg don't need a Cliff Climber.
But they are not always the best soluttion , zerg could really use a unit specialized for harassing. And nobody is talking about cliff climbing, we talk abou cliff digging :P

MattII
06-24-2009, 06:04 PM
It would be nice if the infestor could move pass the cliffs while burrowed, it would make the unit even more awesome. Go into the enemy base and use neural parasite on some units he made , and use them for harrasment. :)

The Infestor is powerful enough as it is, bypassing terrain while moving burrowed is over the top.


They should atleast allow the infestor to move up and down cliffs if the zerg don't have any other terrain travelsing unit. And the infestor is lategame unit, almost the same as the Colossus . So you can't say it's op:P

Oh it's OP alright, a terrain-bypassing unit that can move while cloaked, and has some majorly powerful abilities, how can that 'not' be OP?

DemolitionSquid
06-24-2009, 06:08 PM
I won't sacrifice a new zerg cliff climb/jump unit with new gameplay mechanics for the damn mutualisk.

this is the problem with the zerg too many returning core attack units.

Lurker, zergling, hydralisk, ultralisk, mutualisk, broodlord which is just a guardian.

the damn hydralisk also is just stupid as anti air specially lorewise. i cant believe blizzard cater too much with sc1 zerg fanboys gameplay. the potential new interesting and fun gameplay for the zerg in sc2 is vast if only they take risk and remove most of these unit and place new ones.


But they are not always the best soluttion , zerg could really use a unit specialized for harassing. And nobody is talking about cliff climbing, we talk abou cliff digging :P

I AGREE that there's too many returning Zerg units. I've been saying that forever. But its too late in development to scrap the Muta. Or add in a new cliff-climbing ground unit for Zerg, which they don't need anyway because the Mutalisk has always served quite well as a harasser. Many cliff-crossing Zerg units have been discussed and suggested, this idea is not new in any way. Blizzard ignored them all, because the Mutalisk does the job wonderfully.

Maybe we'll see a cliff-crossing Zerg in the expansions. But definitely not in Wings Of Liberty.

Perfecttear
06-24-2009, 06:23 PM
Oh it's OP alright, a terrain-bypassing unit that can move while cloaked, and has some majorly powerful abilities, how can that 'not' be OP?
I am still hooping that the infestor can move while burrowed up cliffs, since he is tier 3 it isn't really that op, since at that time you alredy have a base defense perimeter and detection. So is a squad off reapers op? It wouldn't kill blizzard if they would for a change give a nice thing to the zerg, i think that everybody agrees that the zerg are the most borring race,and least innovate if you compare the differences from sc1 and sc2.

DemolitionSquid
06-24-2009, 06:30 PM
I am still hooping that the infestor can move while burrowed up cliffs, since he is tier 3 it isn't really that op, since at that time you alredy have a base defense perimeter and detection. So is a squad off reapers op? It wouldn't kill blizzard if they would for a change give a nice thing to the zerg, i think that everybody agrees that the zerg are the most borring race,and least innovate if you compare the differences from sc1 and sc2.

Infestor is tier 2.5, actually.

Crazy_Jonny
06-24-2009, 08:13 PM
I wish they would give the queen deep tunneling back. It would be a strong defense against early nullifier.
Also, giving the Lurker a Cliff Climbing ability could give it some new found life. Personally Im not a fan of it coming back, atleast unchanged.

Can the overlord still drop creep btw? I forgot if it could.

ManjiSanji
06-24-2009, 09:35 PM
Zerg don't need a Cliff Climber.

Would you support the old idea of the moving-while-burrowed Nydus Worm transport unit, though (assuming it can travel across water/space/etc)?

Or would you think of it more as a flying unit?

DemolitionSquid
06-24-2009, 09:40 PM
Would you support the old idea of the moving-while-burrowed Nydus Worm transport unit, though (assuming it can travel across water/space/etc)?

Or would you think of it more as a flying unit?


Yes, because it would be a transport.

unentschieden
06-25-2009, 12:55 AM
Cliff climbing is actually "just" flying for cheap. The whole point of airunits is their unique mobility and the hit distinction. The colossus isnīt vulnerable to AA just because the Devteam hit the wrong spot on the "suggestiondartboard".

In Sc:Bw Mutalisks were the only "real" air harrass units which actually continues in SC2. Itīs not that the Zerg lack a Reaperlike unit, itīs that the Terrans lack a Mutalisklike unit!

XSOLDIER
06-25-2009, 02:59 AM
Zerg don't have a Cliff Climber for one very good reason.

Mutalisks.

They're quick to get, and very cheap. Why climb when you can fly?

Zerg don't need a Cliff Climber.

The biggest advantage that Cliff Climbers have over Mutalisks is that they're Ground units and not air units, and I think that's what makes the biggest difference, in addition to how they provide Line of Site to other units. Even if Mutalisks ARE used as a substitute, they'd replace the Reapers for Terran & the Colossus for Protoss.

The Zerg would still benefit from a unit that could use a mechanic that required some micro instead of just allowing a ground unit to path over cliffs (like the Viking & Stalker.). I think the fact that the Zerg rely on large numbers, good pathing is likely WHY the Mutalisk is their equivalent for the above units.

If we're going to discuss this, I think that this mechanic would be the better one to focus on.

Lore wise, the Hydralisk's blades would be a way that would allow them to scale cliffs, and they could use the advantage because they're a ranged unit, and it would also help them get away from ground forces, and be a better support unit, and chase down air. Though this would also let the Lurker scale cliffs, since you wouldn't want a Hydralisk morphing, and then having a stranded Lurker.


X :cool:

Norfindel
06-25-2009, 08:14 AM
The problem, is that the early Zerg units are too numerous to think about giving them cliff climbing. Not to talk about burrowed movement, that would allow them to do the same while remaining invisible.

MattII
06-25-2009, 04:25 PM
What if burrowed movement were at half-speed or less, and the units had only basic vision ie, can't see units, just sees those exclamation mark things of where units are (except hovering units and air units). This could prove interesting, since those units your seeing could be anything, and mistaking Nullifiers as lesser units could easily be fatal.