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View Full Version : Possible solution to the Proton Charge.



Noise
06-23-2009, 01:25 AM
So there are 2 problems with PC. The first is that there is no decent ability to compete with it for energy usage and so you're pretty much always going to be casting PC when it's ready. Second is that even if there was, Obelisks are cheap and you can spam them so that your probes are always proton charged and you have other Obelisks to cast the competing abilities.

Now I know I posted this in a thread somewhere but these things get lost among all the posts and everything.

So I propose first moving the ability to the Nexus. This solves the second problem. I mean the Nexus is where the mining happens so it makes sense that the Nexus would have a mining-increasing ability. You basically cannot cast the spell more often if you wanted to.

And I propose a new ability (also on the Nexus) which can be cast on nearby production buildings, gateways, stargates, etc. Buildings cast on have their production speed increased by some appropriate amount.

Since these 2 abilities are both macro abilities, you will always have to make the choice. Do you want your units sooner, or more units in the long term?

The Obelisk keeps its shield and energy recharge abilities, and could get back cloaking.

So that's just one idea, there have some other good ones floating around. What do you think?

Triceron
06-23-2009, 02:11 AM
I don't mind it, but it's nexus based so doesn't that mean while one nexus gains proton charge, another can give access to increased production and simply give Protoss a complete advantage in both mining and unit production?

I mean Spawn Larva and Orbital Command can't compete against that. For Mules to be effective, you can't have a full number of SCVs on any given mineral field; while Proton Charge affects all probes and just boosts their efficiency. While the incentive of faster production to draw away from that if increased production, there's no real limit on either for any given time.

I feel that's somewhat dangerous, giving Protoss increased mining, the ability to warp in and now the ability to boost production speeds. Coupled with warp in, you can maxx out your psi, attack and have a couple phase prisms be ready to warp in fast-build units to reinforce any lost in battle.

SaharaDrac
06-23-2009, 02:22 AM
I think he meant that the nexus would have a limited range for these abilities.

I don't think the increased production time is necessary. People are really flipping out about Proton Charge, and it's ridiculous. Put it on the nexus, make it cost a bunch of energy, balance during beta. It's not that complicated.

unentschieden
06-23-2009, 02:32 AM
Id rather want the Nexus to stay unique in its near uselessness. Id rather make the Obelisks abilities more interesting/competing with each other. Random Rambling:
-PC is balanced around a cost of 150 Energy. That way it would limit the other abilities more.
-Shield recharge is iffy since shields now recharge just fine on their own. Instead its Shield overcharge which can increase Shieldpoints above their normal max. maybe 10% for a units regular value, easyly granting another "hit". It is a bit like shield matrix though...
-Argus link. I think that can stay, full energy HT right after Construction IS tempting already.

From the Obelisk vs. OC Thread.

Noise
06-23-2009, 03:00 AM
I think he meant that the nexus would have a limited range for these abilities.
Yeah I did mean that.


I think he meant that the nexus would have a limited range for these abilities.

I don't think the increased production time is necessary. People are really flipping out about Proton Charge, and it's ridiculous. Put it on the nexus, make it cost a bunch of energy, balance during beta. It's not that complicated.

But then you will just cast PC as often as you possibly can, so what's the point? It's just busywork.

UNLESS, while PC is on you can't build probes or motherships.


From the Obelisk vs. OC Thread.

But the problem with this is you will just build enough Obelisks to have your probes on permanent PC and have extra Obelisks for shield and energy recharge if you feel like you need them. They don't really compete.

SaharaDrac
06-23-2009, 03:08 AM
Sure, give it a "channeling" time....while PC is active, you can't use the Nexus for anything else. Maybe give it a "recovery time" afterwards where you can't build probes. Those ideas are worth a shot.

I don't know how the majority feels, but I feel having another type of pylon feels clunky. I think the Nexus having an ability like this would be streamlined and better. (Like the command center has abilities now. You could always research at the hive. Why leave the Nexus out?)

PosImpos
06-23-2009, 03:47 AM
Sure, give it a "channeling" time....while PC is active, you can't use the Nexus for anything else. Maybe give it a "recovery time" afterwards where you can't build probes. Those ideas are worth a shot.

I don't know how the majority feels, but I feel having another type of pylon feels clunky. I think the Nexus having an ability like this would be streamlined and better. (Like the command center has abilities now. You could always research at the hive. Why leave the Nexus out?)


This idea I think works very nicely.

Use proton charge, you can't build probes while you're doing it. You get a boost to your economy, but you can't make more probes.

It's an interesting trade off.

I do think it should be on the Nexus, too. They're too expensive to "spam" and it would be pointless to anyway, since I would assume PC doesn't stack or anything like that.

The other abilities can stay on the Obelisk and can be subject to balance. The obelisk is essentially just the new shield battery only with a couple other abilities to make it more worthwhile.

Triceron
06-23-2009, 04:08 AM
I don't know what you mean about limited range. I didn't mean resourcing or building production boost works all over the map.

But say you boosted mining speed to gain resources fast at your expansion, and at home base used that nexus to boost production speed to warp in a bunch of units quick. You'd be able to get the benefits of both at the same time. I just think the combination could be too powerful compared to Spawn Larvae and Mules, which are simply a means to gain more units with no boost to production speed.

Noise
06-23-2009, 04:50 AM
I don't know what you mean about limited range. I didn't mean resourcing or building production boost works all over the map.

But say you boosted mining speed to gain resources fast at your expansion, and at home base used that nexus to boost production speed to warp in a bunch of units quick. You'd be able to get the benefits of both at the same time. I just think the combination could be too powerful compared to Spawn Larvae and Mules, which are simply a means to gain more units with no boost to production speed.

I see your point, but I believe that could be balancable.

SpiderBrigade
06-23-2009, 06:14 AM
But say you boosted mining speed to gain resources fast at your expansion, and at home base used that nexus to boost production speed to warp in a bunch of units quick.Right, but you're still losing out on the mining speed boost in your main, so it's still a meaningful decision. For instance if your opponent goes double-Proton Charge instead and still manages to hold off your faster units, he might get the edge in the long run.

I'm also somewhat concerned that a production speed boost interferes or overlaps too much with Warp-In which is already a "quick unit" ability and meant to boost macro for the Protoss.

ArcherofAiur
06-23-2009, 06:48 AM
LOL @ balancing a mechanic none of us have ever even played with ;)

Noise
06-23-2009, 07:02 AM
Right, but you're still losing out on the mining speed boost in your main, so it's still a meaningful decision. For instance if your opponent goes double-Proton Charge instead and still manages to hold off your faster units, he might get the edge in the long run.

I'm also somewhat concerned that a production speed boost interferes or overlaps too much with Warp-In which is already a "quick unit" ability and meant to boost macro for the Protoss.

That's why the ultimate solution is to scrap Proton Charge

unentschieden
06-23-2009, 08:30 AM
But the problem with this is you will just build enough Obelisks to have your probes on permanent PC and have extra Obelisks for shield and energy recharge if you feel like you need them. They don't really compete.

Then just make them to expensive to be usable like that. In SC:BW Hatcheries are too espensive as pure production buildings creating the "+1 Base to stay even" Pressure.

The_Blade
06-23-2009, 12:08 PM
Actually having this two abilities on the nexus is worth it and can be balanced with ease.

Terrans got their reactor and mules which boost mining and units.

Zerg got spwn larvae and as well as in the protoss the zerg got to decide if they produce units or drones.

Regardless of the fast spwn of units by warpgates, they got a cooldown worth of the original spwn of units. The production boost might reduce this cooldown and the build time of other buildings that dont have warp-in (stargates, robotics facilities, gateways)

unentschieden
06-23-2009, 02:05 PM
The bad thing with giving it to the Nexus is
1. Less distinction between the races, in this case Terran.
2. The Macro-Mechanic is no longer a conscious desicion. When Terrans build the OC for Mules they consciously decide against more scans or supply and the Planetary Fortress altogether along with sacrificing CC mobility.

Also why do the Protoss need 2 abilities aimed at exactly the same thing? Id consider it if the speedbuild was a ALTERNATIVE to the Warpgate. Faster Production but no Warp-in.

MattII
06-23-2009, 04:41 PM
Oh hells, not 'another' of these PC=Evil, offshoot threads. Honestly people, we already have this (http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=497) and this (http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512) to talk about correcting PC, we don't need a third thread in the same vein.

ArcherofAiur
06-23-2009, 04:41 PM
The bad thing with giving it to the Nexus is
1. Less distinction between the races, in this case Terran.


See I felt the same way but I think most people would agree that its worth sacrificing a little racial diversity if it allows the Protoss macro mechanic to work. Plus if the Protoss macro mechanic works then you have all the racial diversity that it adds to the game to offset this.