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Perfecttear
06-17-2009, 04:09 PM
There is currently alot off debating about female unit in starcraft, so i am making a suggestion and would like your thought on this.

I was looking at some unit portraits, and i realized that there are almost none female units in sc2 for the terrans. In sc1 there were atleast the medic and the Valkyrie.
So i am wondering what do you think about a female marauder, there is no reason why males only should be wearing a combait suit, the medic to was wearing an armor, they would just need to change the portrait and voice and it would be a female marauder. And you would finally have a kickass female unit, that means business :D

There is no need to change the unit animation, so there would be no visible difference,even if you zoom in, except the portrait and the voice. It's about time there is a female unit that doesn't only heal or transport units. :p

I don't know why female units have to be degenerated, to just pilot things or heal,they should have a combait suit and fight on the front and kill stuff , and marauder would be the best choice, atleast for me ,so noone could say it's a fan service.The Marauder suite is most likely a robotic suite smiler to the Marine and there for carries most of its own weight, the user inside does not have to be super pumped up, so it's perfect :p

Wouldn't it give a special vibe if the toughest infantry unit would be a female, and it would have some great quotes, like the Valkyrie.

And please feel open to the suggestion, and explain if you disagree, and be polite :)

REF
06-17-2009, 04:13 PM
Marauder is a badass unit displayed by the cigar smoking redneck. I don't think it fits the role well. Unless you had a 400lbs woman called Bertha at manning the guns

Perfecttear
06-17-2009, 04:19 PM
Marauder is a badass unit displayed by the cigar smoking redneck. I don't think it fits the role well. Unless you had a 400lbs woman called Bertha at manning the guns
Thats just stereotyping, and the Marauder suite is most likely a robotic suite similer to the Marine and there for carries most of its own weight,so the user inside does not have to be super pumped up.

Crazy_Jonny
06-17-2009, 04:19 PM
Is this suppose to be funny?

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 04:24 PM
Ionno... the marauder needs to replace the firebat... it needs to be a badass mans man!

if any unit were to be female id like to see... ionno LOL
In the future theres just as much gender discrimination as there is now =D so yeah
lol

Perfecttear
06-17-2009, 04:24 PM
Is this suppose to be funny?

I was serious, i actually want a tough female unit for a change, and not some cheesy barbie girl, as they are always portraited, is that so hard to understand :(

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 04:28 PM
I was serious, i actually want a tough female unit for a change, and not some cheesy barbie girl, as they are always portraited, is that so hard to understand :(

It would be nice, but the problem with Starcraft is that it's transfering units over from the first game so you can't really all of a sudden make a unit female instead of male like it was in the previous game.

for all you know many more males are born in the SC universe than females and they need to be kept safe because they are the future
LOL
ionno

its a game targeted towards men, what can you expect?

Mirrors Edge has a good strong female lead. Very good game.

Nottoway
06-17-2009, 04:29 PM
Marauder is a badass unit displayed by the cigar smoking redneck. I don't think it fits the role well. Unless you had a 400lbs woman called Bertha at manning the guns

The Marauder is black, he can't be a redneck.

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 04:31 PM
The Marauder is black, he can't be a redneck.

Black people can be rednecks. Thats just racist if youre saying black people cant be rednecks. ARE YOU RACIST?

Crazy_Jonny
06-17-2009, 04:43 PM
I was serious, i actually want a tough female unit for a change, and not some cheesy barbie girl, as they are always portraited, is that so hard to understand :(

Yes, the Marauder is a heavy suit that requires immense physical strength to be mobile in (btw I read your previous comment, I just dont agree), and I think I would rather have a big tough guy manning that suit rather than a femanine and less muscular woman, unless she was a she-male... and you picked the marauder just because its the most manly unit in the GAME!

No srsly, Im not ammused.

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 04:45 PM
Yes, the Marauder is a heavy suit that requires immense physical strength to be mobile in, and I think I would rather have a big tough guy manning that suit rather than a femanine and less muscular woman, unless she was a she-male...

No srsly, Im not ammused.

except not. The purpose of the huge suits is that you do barely any work and the suit does it for you.
Women can be tough, have you seen Alien? Silence of the Lambs?

Pick
06-17-2009, 04:46 PM
The voice of the Protoss Mothership is female. Don't get much more badass than that.

Also... I don't think it is correct to assume that men make video games and think women are inferior therefore they cannot be tough units. I think most men still have a sense of "women and children first". Many of us have a natural instinct that women are to be protected and not sent to the front lines with a rifle. That masculine desire to protect women tends to be displayed in the fiction created by men.

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 04:47 PM
The voice of the Protoss Mothership is female. Don't get much more badass than that.

Also... I don't think it is correct to assume that men make video games and think women are inferior therefore they cannot be tough units. I think most men still have a sense of "women and children first". Many of us have a natural instinct that women are to be protected and not sent to the front lines with a rifle. That masculine desire to protect women tends to be displayed in the fiction created by men.

Its also the fact that men want men to be the leads and be the heros protecting the females so they can feel stronger and better than females. Its a horribly sexist business.

I know its more complicated than that but all it will lead to is a huge forum flame war against each other.

Perfecttear
06-17-2009, 05:06 PM
Yes, the Marauder is a heavy suit that requires immense physical strength to be mobile in (btw I read your previous comment, I just dont agree), and I think I would rather have a big tough guy manning that suit rather than a femanine and less muscular woman, unless she was a she-male... and you picked the marauder just because its the most manly unit in the GAME!

No srsly, Im not ammused.
I'm really sorry you are not ammused, and hope you can forgive me.I picked marauder because i thought it would give a nice touch to the game, and would break the steroitypes the best, the same as Valkyrie, don't you agree it was a great unit? And in fact i think there is no terran unit that could not be female. And you don't need any strenght to be inside a combait suit, since the suit does everything for you, and you are just a pilot.
Would it really be that hard to imagine that the marauder would be a female?

mr. peasant
06-17-2009, 05:12 PM
Black people can be rednecks. Thats just racist if youre saying black people cant be rednecks. ARE YOU RACIST?

Well, he's not smoking a cigar so the other guy's still wrong. As for the Marauder being female, I've been calling for this for awhile now (even back at Blizzforums).


Its also the fact that men want men to be the leads and be the heros protecting the females so they can feel stronger and better than females. Its a horribly sexist business.

I know its more complicated than that but all it will lead to is a huge forum flame war against each other.

Well, from a lore perspective, the Marauder armors are still a heck of a lot safer than the Marine suits. Plus, odds are that you'd be using your Marines to protect the more expensive Marauders. So, you'd still be 'protecting the females'.


Ultimately, I feel the appeal behind the Marauder as a female unit is because it subverts people's expectations. Instead of some big, muscular dude operating the beefiest infantry combat suit, it's actually some 'dainty damsel' operating it. It's funny.

Alternatively, what about the Thor instead? I can't stand his current voice and the portrait is horrible too. Put a wrench wench in there and I'd be satisfied.

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 05:18 PM
Alternatively, what about the Thor instead? I can't stand his current voice and the portrait is horrible too. Put a wrench wench in there and I'd be satisfied.

Sounds good n all but the Thor is probably the most hated unit (at least to me and a few others) and having a female playing the role of a unit that cant even find a proper role is dumb hahaha. But if the Thor was a good unit I would support it.

EDIT: hahaha Perfecttear, we have completely opposite reactions to the Thor being a female. I hate the unit and wouldnt want to feel like I was hating a female :p

Perfecttear
06-17-2009, 05:18 PM
Alternatively, what about the Thor instead? I can't stand his current voice and the portrait is horrible too. Put a wrench wench in there and I'd be satisfied.
That's a great idea and i like it, but i think some people won't like it, since we really can't have the strongest terran unit to be a female, that would be just wrong and would be to much off a shock to some people :rolleyes:

mr. peasant
06-17-2009, 05:27 PM
Well, for those against female Marauders, hopefully these quote ideas will change your mind:

Attack:
"Come to momma!"

Pissed:
"Does this make me look fat?"
"What do you mean I cost 2 supply?!"
"Well, I guess this beats a chainmail bikini."

Crazy_Jonny
06-17-2009, 05:41 PM
I'm really sorry you are not ammused, and hope you can forgive me.I picked marauder because i thought it would give a nice touch to the game, and would break the steroitypes the best, the same as Valkyrie, don't you agree it was a great unit? And in fact i think there is no terran unit that could not be female. And you don't need any strenght to be inside a combait suit, since the suit does everything for you, and you are just a pilot.
Would it really be that hard to imagine that the marauder would be a female?

Valkaryes were different, tough russian lady in a missile launching fighter sounded really cool. See, females aren't put in the game to break the wall of stereotypes, if anything, StarCraft does the opposite.

The point Im making, its all about the cool factor. Im not trying to be racist, sexist, or anything of the sort, I just dont think it would be cool to put a woman in a feakin 5 ton suit that looks like a roid raged marine.

Perfecttear
06-17-2009, 05:41 PM
Well, for those against female Marauders, hopefully these quote ideas will change your mind:

Attack:
"Come to momma!"

Pissed:
"Does this make me look fat?"
"What do you mean I cost 2 supply?!"
"Well, I guess this beats a chainmail bikini."

Those are funny:D, how about some serious ones or cool ones.


Edit: Does anybody know why they decided to change the banshee portrait?

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 05:51 PM
They changed the banshee portrait? since when? what to?

Hammy
06-17-2009, 05:53 PM
I can see two units having female pilots in SC2:

One is the medivac mainly because both dropship and medic were female in SC:BW
The other the banshee, first because in mythology banshees are women, and second because it isn't as gritty and bulky as units like the siege tank or thor. It's definitely a combat unit, but in a much more subtle way (like cloaking for example).
If the unit is very cheap and fragile (as I expect it to be) I would like a dropship like character piloting it (or some completely insane character would be fun, to make the unit feel en more volatile). If they beef it up and make it more resistant and powerful, the valkyrie stereotype would be more fitting in my opinion.

I also think the ghost's gender is quite debatable, I think both are rather fitting. If Blizz absolutely needed more female units, my next choice would be the viking because it reminds me so much of valkyrie, but I don't think it fits the unit's name, "transformer" function or general feel.

On the other hand... Both the marauder and the thor are two very bulky units that seem to be the two most bland units currently in the game... I realize you want at least one unit that doesn't follow silly stereotypes, but I think stereotypes are also an important element to immersion in a game. So you can't blame blizzard for focusing on that too.

n00bonicPlague
06-17-2009, 05:55 PM
A lot of the stereotypes that emerge are not social constructs.
They are natural aspects that frequently appear all by themselves.

Hammy
06-17-2009, 05:58 PM
Edit: Does anybody know why they decided to change the banshee portrait?
In the BR2 this was the portrait: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/d/d7/Banshee_SC2_Head1.jpg

And this is the original art:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starcraft/images/4/41/Banshee_SC2_DevHead1.jpg


I haven't heard of any change unfortunately... I hope so though.

Perfecttear
06-17-2009, 06:01 PM
For some reason i thought, tha the banshee used to be female :S
Edit: Didn't the banshee used to be a female, or was i dreaming?

Nicol Bolas
06-17-2009, 06:06 PM
Yes, the Marauder is a heavy suit that requires immense physical strength to be mobile in

The whole point of powered armor is that it is powered; your muscle strength is irrelevant. The machine moves itself with your movements. Much like you don't need to be particularly strong to use an earth-mover or other construction equipment.


just dont think it would be cool to put a woman in a feakin 5 ton suit that looks like a roid raged marine.

Depends on your definition of "cool", I guess. I find women in powered armor to be cool.

Triceron
06-17-2009, 06:06 PM
Starcraft has always been about stereotypes, so I'd prefer male Marauder.

But I have to give credit for Mr. Peasant's quotes, they work perfectly. Maybe for a hero female maurader unit, but the standard ones should be your typical testosterone induced male.

areese87
06-17-2009, 06:06 PM
Female Marauder? Definitely. I'm totally for it. Often, the argument against having different genders/races is either "Starcraft is white!" (not true...and weird), "Starcraft is redneck! (Living IN the deep south, I can tell you...anyone can be a redneck), and "The units are based on stereotypes."

The last one is the only legitimate one. I mean, all the units are based on stereotypes. But people seem to think that there aren't stereotypes fitting for non-white males. It's hilarious.

So yeah, woman marauder? Great. But tread carefully. I remember two of these threads I was heatedly involved in lasted for nearly 20 pages, and one was removed from the forum because it just became about affirmative action and race relations in Australia. Wild, right?

n00bonicPlague
06-17-2009, 06:07 PM
For some reason i thought, tha the banshee used to be female :SI'd actually love for that unit to be female, along with the Hellion, Medivac, and Raven.

Ghost......meh, idk.

Zigurd
06-17-2009, 06:11 PM
Female units need to be able to show that they are female, either in the in-game unit model or in unit portrait (or both yo).

Female ghost = Great, you can have a tight suit showing anatomical distinctions from the male counterpart. Including a different in-game portrait too.

Banshee = Good. You can have a portrait showing the female side + the name gives a female aura to the unit.

Marauder = Bad. The unit model is bulky, you can't have anatomical distinctions in the armor without a sense of less sturdiness. The portrait, it's far too dark and closed-in to be able to fully appreciate a womanly figure.

Other units that could potentially be female:

Raven (or whatever the fuck it's called now) = Portrait could be female easily.
Medevac = should be a female for fucks sake.

That's it. I'd also like an Asian as Viking, for the lulz.

areese87
06-17-2009, 06:12 PM
Why must females show they are female, other than the voice? Explain this one to me, Zigurd.

PsiWarp
06-17-2009, 06:15 PM
Sexiness transcends physical appearance >:0

Anywho, the Marauder power suit is just a weapon system. It will be like saying if female soldiers cannot use a bazooka, they cannot be found operating Marauder suits.


-Psi

mr. peasant
06-17-2009, 06:16 PM
Marauder = Bad. The unit model is bulky, you can't have anatomical distinctions in the armor without a sense of less sturdiness. The portrait, it's far too dark and closed-in to be able to fully appreciate a womanly figure.

That's nonsense. There is a part of the womanly figure that can be appreciated. It's called her face! You should look at it once in awhile. :rolleyes:

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 06:17 PM
Zigurd, the Medic was nothing more than a recoloured marine with a shield and no one complained about it not looking like a girl

Crazy_Jonny
06-17-2009, 06:35 PM
I knew this debate was gonna spill over into more than just the marauder. I can really care less about the sex of the unit, ok. Its just after seeing that concept art of the female ghost, you would think there would be a female ghost model right? As far as the other units go, just change the banshee and we're set. Im suggesting what I think would make the game cooler, it doesn't have to be pro-women activist or anything.

I still can't believe half of us actually want the Marauder to go from Mr T. to a she-male.

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 06:37 PM
I still can't believe half of us actually want the Marauder to go from Mr T. to a she-male.

It doesn't have to be a she-male, just a female :p

and I don't care either way, as long as the unit still has character.

Crazy_Jonny
06-17-2009, 06:39 PM
It doesn't have to be a she-male, just a female :p

and I don't care either way, as long as the unit still has character.

Not my point, the point is I like the Marauder the way it is.

And besides, perfecttear has also suggested the Thor being female. Doesnt the Thor just scream "HEY IM FULL OF ESTROGEN!!!" to you?

I know you can say "shes just piloting it" that not my point! My point is its manly. The unit is big, its angry, it wants to get to DA CHOPPER!

Zigurd
06-17-2009, 06:42 PM
Zigurd, the Medic was nothing more than a recoloured marine with a shield and no one complained about it not looking like a girl

It was a WHITE model. God damn it if a man will ever wear a white armor without being a flaming faggot. And the unit portrait was awesome. A medic can easily be female.


That's nonsense. There is a part of the womanly figure that can be appreciated. It's called her face! You should look at it once in awhile. :rolleyes:

Of course you can. But for a female portrait to be worthy, it needs to fit perfectly. A marauder is not fitting for a female.

You guys are not seeing my point. For a unit to be female it needs to have a bunch of characteristics. It needs to feel right for it to be female (as the medic was), it needs to have the possibility for the in-game model to show the female chracteristics and it needs to have a female portrait worthy of seeing.

Or, it could be something completely parallel to what you would expect a female would be/do in a battlefield. For example, a female Thor.

I'd rather have only one female unit, but one that fits perectly instead of having a bunch of random female portraits thrown in just for the sake of it. The Marauder feels as a male unit for me. To each his own I guess !!

n00bonicPlague
06-17-2009, 06:43 PM
I laughed so hard......

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj234/ScardyBob/big-bertha.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bertha_(comics)

Caliban113
06-17-2009, 06:47 PM
Hmmmm.....I think I'm gonna hold off on an opinion until the, "Who-wants-a-female-Reaper" poll...


I laughed so hard......

Shee-yow! - that gal doesn't even need tha armor.

Nicol Bolas
06-17-2009, 06:57 PM
For a unit to be female it needs to have a bunch of characteristics.

Says who? You're basically saying that unless you can see that it's female, it must be male. As though maleness were the default state or something.

Nottoway
06-17-2009, 07:05 PM
Black people can be rednecks. Thats just racist if youre saying black people cant be rednecks. ARE YOU RACIST?

I've never in my life seen a black redneck.

Let wikipedia be the guide :)

Redneck refers to a person who is stereotypically Caucasian (i.e. white) and is of lower socio-economic status in the United States and Canada.

This is why white people aren't called "niggas", they are called wiggas. So you could make a new word for blacks in regard to redneck.

Triceron
06-17-2009, 07:09 PM
Redneck refers to a person who is stereotypically Caucasian (i.e. white) and is of lower socio-economic status in the United States and Canada.

Wait, isn't that the definition of 'White Trash'? And I know there's a difference between the two.

sandwich_bird
06-17-2009, 07:24 PM
WTF. No.


I was serious, i actually want a tough female unit for a change, and not some cheesy barbie girl, as they are always portraited, is that so hard to understand Selendis? What about Infested Kerrigan?

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 07:37 PM
Yes, it's a battlefield. Unless it has a bunch of female worthy characteristics it's supposed to be male.

"Maleness" is the default in war. *Removed*

The reason males were always in war was because they are stronger than females. In the future, and even now in modern times, with the armour and weapons that soldiers are given it doesnt matter if the soldier is male or female as the equipment does all the work and not the soldier themselves.

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 07:50 PM
*Removed quote of Zigurd*

Really it could be argued its by how males and females are raised as kids. Im in Criminology and theres theories about why males commit more crime than females.. I wont go into it though.. too lazy to rant..

Point is, its all subjective on the individual

Zigurd
06-17-2009, 07:57 PM
Point is, its all subjective on the individual

We are talking about gender characteristics, specific cases are not important. I study neuropsychology.

My opinion > yours.

Mine is based in medical journals studying personality traits as well as temperament traits. Also medical journals researching genetic predispositions towards certain activities.

n00bonicPlague
06-17-2009, 08:00 PM
Did I just see someone bring up "nature vs nurture"?

mr. peasant
06-17-2009, 08:01 PM
*Removed quote of Zigurd*

Yet, many countries allow women to serve in the frontlines all the same, including infantry, armor and submarines. What do you make of that?

Furthermore, this is science fiction. And already in lore, it's a known fact that the Terrans do not discriminate according to gender. Therefore, why not make Marauders females since the guys get Marines and Reapers?

ArcherofAiur
06-17-2009, 08:06 PM
At the risk of interacting at all with Zigurd after that grade A #@$%@^# of a post....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc


But really its not even about all the counter examples, or the fact that this is a game or that small people shouldnt be allowed in the army by your logic or that your entire view of how free soicities work is wrong. Its about how you could possible think that being that offensive would score you any points with us.

Nicol Bolas
06-17-2009, 08:09 PM
We are talking about gender characteristics, specific cases are not important. I study neuropsychology.

My opinion > yours.

Not unless you start citing actual peer-reviewed articles in support of your positions.

And considering your *removed* nonsense, I'm fairly certain that people actually in college studying neuropsychology display more maturity than that.

areese87
06-17-2009, 08:11 PM
That was cheap and ill-fitting and forced. (like a...I'll stop). I apologize.

Anywho, this whole thing is purely subjective. Saying war is "male," has a lot of truths to it. Men generally fight in them. This, however, is irrevelant. Your argument for the Marauder being female has been "it feels male." Ok, so your studies in neuropyschology have to do with...? Nothing. Your argument is as subjective as anyone else's.

This isn't really about equality. I mean, if it was, people would be asking for an equal share of woman/man. Same w/ the races. The point is, the "tough girl as a foot soldier" is a popular stereotype. "Aliens", for instance demonstrates that well. A Female maruder could work easily. And this whole "the unit has to look female" thing? That smells like fecal matter of the bovine variety.

-------------

By the way, Big Bertha...awesome shot. Though, as some hardcore Marvel heads might now, that's actually a transformation from a model's body. Great Lakes Avengers Assemble!!

starcraftguy13
06-17-2009, 08:15 PM
i agree. the marauder is meant to be played as a man, but i think that they should have female ghosts or pilots, but not a marauder, or a reaper either

Zigurd
06-17-2009, 08:22 PM
Again brosephs, it's about gender, not specific characters. I have two arguments in this thread, one is that war is male in general, the other one is that female units need to fit perfectly in order to be worth being female.

All of you:

http://i40.tinypic.com/2lsitds.jpg

Bisso
06-17-2009, 08:30 PM
I don't know why female units have to be degenerated, to just pilot things or heal,they should have a combait suit and fight on the front and kill stuff , and marauder would be the best choice, atleast for me ,so noone could say it's a fan service.The Marauder suite is most likely a robotic suite smiler to the Marine and there for carries most of its own weight, the user inside does not have to be super pumped up, so it's perfect :p

Good point, I also think a woman could be a cool design for a unit like the marauder or another attacking unit. But this bring back the "lore" factor and keep in mind that this all started with tribal wars in a far far away galaxy with armies that started with criminals and stuff.

I doubt the majority of the men back there in Krupulu are gentlemen. They probably had problem with having girls has medics at start anyway, now a marauder. That hurts some pumped up stimed marine pride.

mr. peasant
06-17-2009, 08:33 PM
Or alternatively, why muddle the lore up anyway? Did the lore specify why Dropships, Medics and Valkyries were female? I don't recall anything of such. Same can/should be applied to other female units. Unless of course, there's a reason a certain unit type would be exclusively female.

Nicol Bolas
06-17-2009, 08:50 PM
I have two arguments in this thread, one is that war is male in general, the other one is that female units need to fit perfectly in order to be worth being female.

These arguments are intertwined. The latter only makes sense in the presence of the former. Unless the default state is expected to be male, the latter argument makes no sense. And the former claim is... let's just say dubious.

Here are the things I like about a female Marauder:

1: It's unexpected. That's always a plus. There's nothing more boring and dull than doing everything exactly as everyone expects.

2: It provides a different timbre of voice for a unit that's probably going to be a mainstay of various Terran strategies.

3: It gives a greater sense of the totality of the conflict among the Terrans. They need warm bodies in machines of war, chivalry be damned.

n00bonicPlague
06-17-2009, 10:36 PM
Honestly, I think the game is more enjoyable with stereotypes enforced. Games have always featured stereotypes, whether it be by gender or even ethnicity. It would just feel absolutely wrong to give units genders that don't fit the name and nature of the unit. This isn't really about military gender ratios -- it's about what you think of when you see the unit and think of the name. Here's what I see:

SCV -- young blue-collar newbie white or black dude (SC1 SCV)
Marine -- tough middle-aged redneck white man (SC1 marine)
Reaper -- criminal psychopath white male
Ghost -- mysterious cocky white guy (a creepy "Duke Nukem" -- SC1 Ghost)
Marauder -- 150kg totally ripped deep-voiced black dude (SC1 Firebat)
Hellion -- young crazy redneck red-haired white chick
Siege Tank -- tough drill-sergeant-type white dude (SC1 Siege Tank)
Thor -- Schwarzenegger
Banshee -- tough Russian accented woman (SC1 Valkyrie)
Medivac -- Business as usual transport pilot white female (SC1 Dropship)
Viking -- cocky stuck-up pilot white guy (SC1 Wraith)
Raven -- smooth/sexy-voiced but serious black chick
Battlecruiser -- Russian male captain-type (SC1 BC)

LoTuS
06-17-2009, 10:43 PM
Female marauder = Buff Bikini model... Ya no thx. Good idea though, but it just doesnt quite fit people's perspectives.

Nicol Bolas
06-17-2009, 10:55 PM
I think the game is more enjoyable with stereotypes enforced

I couldn't disagree more. All reinforcing stereotypes does is act as yet another reminder of the fact that SC isn't very original.


SCV -- young blue-collar newbie white or black dude (SC1 SCV)
Marine -- tough middle-aged redneck white man (SC1 marine)
Reaper -- criminal psychopath white male
Ghost -- mysterious cocky white guy (a creepy "Duke Nukem" -- SC1 Ghost)
Marauder -- 150kg totally ripped deep-voiced black dude (SC1 Firebat)
Hellion -- young crazy redneck red-haired white chick
Siege Tank -- tough drill-sergeant-type white dude (SC1 Siege Tank)
Thor -- Schwarzenegger
Banshee -- tough Russian accented woman (SC1 Valkyrie)
Medivac -- Business as usual transport pilot white female (SC1 Dropship)
Viking -- cocky stuck-up pilot white guy (SC1 Wraith)
Raven -- smooth/sexy-voiced but serious black chick
Battlecruiser -- Russian male captain-type (SC1 BC)

If I were to completely ignore the SC1 voices, look at the SC1 units and decide what voices they should have based on the unit and abilities?

SCV: Bored worker. Possibly an office worker-type voice. Dilbert.

Marine: Well, a Marine. Disciplined, professional, lethal.

Medic: Something that shows devotion to keeping others alive.

Firebat: Crazed pyromanic.

Ghost: Cold, calculating killer. No snide remarks, no style, no flash.

Vulture: Intense and excitable.

Goliath: Someone who's very precise and orderly.

Siege Tank: Armored Cavalryman. Imagine a guy riding the tank into battle.

Wraith: Cold, detatched pilot. Standard Chuck Yeager.

Dropship: Somewhat wild (you have to be to fly one of those into a hot LZ) and crazed.

Valkyrie: Crazed gunman (flurry of missiles).

Science Vessel: Aloof and entirely disinterested. If you've ever seen ExoSquad, Prof. Algernon would be the perfect voice.

Battlecruiser: Calm, commanding, and well-grounded. Should be able to speak with authority.


And I still don't know how you and Blizzard get "drill sergeant" out of a Tank pilot. Sergeants lead squads of infantry in the field. Being a "Sergeant of One" in a Tank doesn't make sense.

ArcherofAiur
06-17-2009, 10:58 PM
How about some reinforced stereotypes and some new and innovative charactors?

n00bonicPlague
06-17-2009, 11:04 PM
Hey, you know what's really original?

divy4o85gy6ybex98476vb9648x7yeof487y5xoneiurhfot 987ge640og987xyeof4987fyxoj987436gsuis4eyo8vs7ye

Is it serving a purpose?
No.

Is it useful?
No.

Is it cool?
No.

Is it interesting?
No.

originality != good


How about some reinforced stereotypes and some new and innovative charactors?

Of course -- that's why I suggested that the Hellion should have a crazy chick driver and that the Raven should have a black female pilot. SC doesn't even have ONE black female character in it.

ArcherofAiur
06-17-2009, 11:09 PM
Is it a good example that helps illustrate your point?
No.

n00bonicPlague
06-17-2009, 11:09 PM
Is it a good example that helps illustrate your point?
No.
EXACTLY xD

RainbowToeSocks
06-17-2009, 11:12 PM
I am getting out of this thread before it gets people arguing with each other
oh too late

n00bonicPlague
06-17-2009, 11:14 PM
I am getting out of this thread before it gets people arguing with each other
oh too latelolz, like 7 pages too late

Norfindel
06-18-2009, 08:57 AM
No way, it should be a big black guy, that's a classic.

Triceron
06-18-2009, 12:59 PM
No latino love?

areese87
06-18-2009, 08:09 PM
Hellion = Hispanic. Definitely.

Anywho, Noobonic is right that unit portraits are stereotypes, at least in SC1. But why the hell is there only one stereotype for each unit? I can see a Marauder as a tough, cigar smoking white man, a big buff black guy, a G.I. Jane, etc. Honestly, I feel the main requirement should be tough.

Open your minds people! There are bounds of stereotypes! I'm asking you to explore your prejudices!

And Zigurd? Your second point hasn't been defended yet, other than the numerous restatements of it. Try harder.

mr. peasant
06-18-2009, 08:20 PM
Actually, if you think about it, it doesn't even have to be the most obvious one. I mean, the Terrans themselves are one huge subversion (rednecks in space?!). Based on this precedence, going with something that while still fitting, comes with a twist is perfectly in line with the Terran atmosphere.

PsiWarp
06-18-2009, 08:28 PM
Blizzard might just make a female portrait for each of many units just to spite nonbelievers!


-Psi

PosImpos
06-20-2009, 01:38 AM
I'd like to see some female units for Terran but I don't think the Marauder is the right unit for that.

Viking, Banshee, Hellion, Nighthawk
^ Those are the units I can see best fitting as female-portrait units.

But really, this is a male dominated game, I expect maybe 2-3 female units for terran at most, just like SC1.

ArcherofAiur
06-20-2009, 11:13 AM
What about female protoss?

warrior6
06-20-2009, 07:06 PM
there should be an option to make your entire army male/female. only this will appease the screaming feminists.


and call me what you will but women represent sleak, sneaky, sexy and flexible. they dont fit well on units like marauders/marines thors or siege tanks. i'm saying if they HAD to choose what gender these units would permanently be, i can gurantee you that 75% of people would say male. i find it hilarious that starcraft now has to break social barriers as well. they should change the sc2 teaser cinematic to a big ugly muscular dyke being prepped into marine armor.

Aldrius
06-20-2009, 07:40 PM
and call me what you will but women represent sleak, sneaky, sexy and flexible. they dont fit well on units like marauders/marines thors or siege tanks

I'm not going to call you anything, but these things only exist in your mind.

Like seriously, ever heard of the Boss (http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/The_Boss)? She's certainly not sleak or sexy. She's tough without being too sensual or sexual and without being 'butch'.

The same goes for Ashley (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ashley). Or hell, even Raszagal, if you want a StarCraft example. Even Kerrigan isn't just 'sleak, flexible and sexy' especially when she's infested (well... Metzen's drawings of her anyway... Samwise's are a bit more... ehem... risque.)

Look, I'm not saying that there needs to be 50/50 equality completely arbitrarily, just for the sake of 'feminism'. But seeing female units that don't just exist as bimbos like the medic, or in support roles like the dropship would be nice... sure there was the Valkyrie, but the Valkyrie was pretty useless, and it's SC2 equivalent (the Banshee) has apparently been transformed into a man, so that's out.

In general, what I'd like to see, for each race (er.. .well the Protoss and Terran anyway) is at least 35% of the units being female (where appropriate), and at least 35% of the units being male. And then Blizzard deciding what the other percent should be based off of what is most appropriate. And not based off of archaic gender roles like 'women can only be medics' or 'women can only be sexy agents'.

Oh, and none of this is to say that I want the Marauder to be female. While that would be cool, I actually really like the Marauder's portrait as is. And I realize that my 35% f/35% m/other is completely prepostorous and is not something Blizzard will do in StarCraft 2.

LordArreat15
06-20-2009, 07:42 PM
There is no need to change the unit animation, so there would be no visible difference,even if you zoom in, except the portrait and the voice. It's about time there is a female unit that doesn't only heal or transport units.

Agree with you totally. Blizzard should at least provide us some female and other unique portraits for Scumedit custom units/heroes reasons.

Well what about WoL Raynor's Raiders Cobras, Firebats, Goliath, Vulture, Wraith, Medic portraits or most of their models yet. We haven't seen them. (Minus Vulture on SC wiki. Raynor better be using it!) Medic of course, Cobra maybe, the rest likely male.

mr. peasant
06-20-2009, 07:45 PM
there should be an option to make your entire army male/female. only this will appease the screaming feminists.


and call me what you will but women represent sleak, sneaky, sexy and flexible. they dont fit well on units like marauders/marines thors or siege tanks. i'm saying if they HAD to choose what gender these units would permanently be, i can gurantee you that 75% of people would say male. i find it hilarious that starcraft now has to break social barriers as well. they should change the sc2 teaser cinematic to a big ugly muscular dyke being prepped into marine armor.

Actually, what you said there is more or less the entire basis of my argument; it subverts people's expectations and is therefore funny. Like rednecks in space!! :D

deadlock
06-20-2009, 08:19 PM
and call me what you will but women represent sleak, sneaky, sexy and flexible.

my understanding was that women are actually people

ExT
06-20-2009, 08:52 PM
I think more female units need to be involved for sure, but they need to be placed appropriately into the game. Sure, females should take a step forward and not be so girly girl, only being medics and transporters - highly discriminatory - and its fair enough some people want it. But only certain units would work out as female. I like female ghosts? Hahaha.

warrior6
06-22-2009, 10:01 PM
I'm not going to call you anything, but these things only exist in your mind.

Like seriously, ever heard of the Boss (http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/The_Boss)? She's certainly not sleak or sexy. She's tough without being too sensual or sexual and without being 'butch'.

she isn't bad looking since she is kinda old. but she is def sleak, sneaky and flexible.


The same goes for Ashley (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Ashley). Or hell, even Raszagal, if you want a StarCraft example. Even Kerrigan isn't just 'sleak, flexible and sexy' especially when she's infested (well... Metzen's drawings of her anyway... Samwise's are a bit more... ehem... risque.)

kerrigan is def super feminine. she is sleak, flexible, sneaky and trying to be made increasingly sexy.


Look, I'm not saying that there needs to be 50/50 equality completely arbitrarily, just for the sake of 'feminism'. But seeing female units that don't just exist as bimbos like the medic, or in support roles like the dropship would be nice... sure there was the Valkyrie, but the Valkyrie was pretty useless, and it's SC2 equivalent (the Banshee) has apparently been transformed into a man, so that's out.

you gotta look at things in terms of ratios man. how many men are on the frontlines infantry in most country's armies compared to women. how many men are tank drivers, pilots and battleship captains and fleet admirals compared to women? i'm pretty sure that the case in the starcraft universe is somewhat similar. this is why the women are mostly in highly specialized roles. ones that usually are somewhat covert or support units.


In general, what I'd like to see, for each race (er.. .well the Protoss and Terran anyway) is at least 35% of the units being female (where appropriate), and at least 35% of the units being male. And then Blizzard deciding what the other percent should be based off of what is most appropriate. And not based off of archaic gender roles like 'women can only be medics' or 'women can only be sexy agents'.

again...people expect starcraft 2 to somehow break the social barriers society has created to reflect our society instead of what human universal society has always been like. men soldiers outnumber women soldiers probably with a higher ratio than like 10:1. this is why they are specialized.


my understanding was that women are actually people

and i said they weren't?

mr. peasant
06-23-2009, 05:30 AM
she isn't bad looking since she is kinda old. but she is def sleak, sneaky and flexible.

kerrigan is def super feminine. she is sleak, flexible, sneaky and trying to be made increasingly sexy.

Perhaps. But I dare you say Samus Aran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samus_Aran) from Metroid is particularly feminine when in her power armor.

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/ds_metroid_prime_hunters.jpg

She'd probably give Master Chief a run for his money.


you gotta look at things in terms of ratios man. how many men are on the frontlines infantry in most country's armies compared to women. how many men are tank drivers, pilots and battleship captains and fleet admirals compared to women? i'm pretty sure that the case in the starcraft universe is somewhat similar. this is why the women are mostly in highly specialized roles. ones that usually are somewhat covert or support units.

again...people expect starcraft 2 to somehow break the social barriers society has created to reflect our society instead of what human universal society has always been like. men soldiers outnumber women soldiers probably with a higher ratio than like 10:1. this is why they are specialized.

Using that rationale, then shouldn't all Terran units be Caucasian? They seem to be the most populace Terran race in Starcraft and also seem to form the majority of their military. Yet, the Marauder, in its current form is Black. Are you suggesting that Marauders are predominantly Black?

The point of the portraits and dialog are not to portray the commonest subgroup or the average soldier but to give each unit a distinct look and personality. Making them all the frontline combatants macho men makes them all feel similar. Having a tough as nails female character thrown in mixes things up.

Capsblock
06-23-2009, 09:09 PM
There is currently alot off debating about female unit in starcraft, so i am making a suggestion and would like your thought on this.

I was looking at some unit portraits, and i realized that there are almost none female units in sc2 for the terrans. In sc1 there were atleast the medic and the Valkyrie.
So i am wondering what do you think about a female marauder, there is no reason why males only should be wearing a combait suit, the medic to was wearing an armor, they would just need to change the portrait and voice and it would be a female marauder. And you would finally have a kickass female unit, that means business :D

There is no need to change the unit animation, so there would be no visible difference,even if you zoom in, except the portrait and the voice. It's about time there is a female unit that doesn't only heal or transport units. :p

I don't know why female units have to be degenerated, to just pilot things or heal,they should have a combait suit and fight on the front and kill stuff , and marauder would be the best choice, atleast for me ,so noone could say it's a fan service.The Marauder suite is most likely a robotic suite smiler to the Marine and there for carries most of its own weight, the user inside does not have to be super pumped up, so it's perfect :p

Wouldn't it give a special vibe if the toughest infantry unit would be a female, and it would have some great quotes, like the Valkyrie.

And please feel open to the suggestion, and explain if you disagree, and be polite :)

no tits in starcraft , no female unit. ( maybe they meant the Zerg Queen? )

imdrunkontea
06-23-2009, 11:50 PM
should have made Reapers female.

warrior6
06-24-2009, 11:06 AM
Perhaps. But I dare you say Samus Aran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samus_Aran) from Metroid is particularly feminine when in her power armor.

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/ds_metroid_prime_hunters.jpg

She'd probably give Master Chief a run for his money.

you keep proving my point. samus is a sexy, sometimes sneaky, and vey sleak. your not gonna see an averaging looking or butch ugly woman in any of those roles.


Using that rationale, then shouldn't all Terran units be Caucasian? They seem to be the most populace Terran race in Starcraft and also seem to form the majority of their military. Yet, the Marauder, in its current form is Black. Are you suggesting that Marauders are predominantly Black?

no im saying that starcraft is gonna play on cliche stereotypes. the black guy is in the biggest armor, the battlecruiser captain looks like a white old pirate, the firebat was a guy that smokes cigarettes and is a pyromaniac, the medic was a hot nurse, the vulture is some cow boy, the siege tank is a really really manly tough guy. NEED i continue? lol. out of these stereotypes, the girl in the giant armor isn't gonna fit.


The point of the portraits and dialog are not to portray the commonest subgroup or the average soldier but to give each unit a distinct look and personality. Making them all the frontline combatants macho men makes them all feel similar. Having a tough as nails female character thrown in mixes things up.

since when are all they all macho-men? they may mostly be dudes, but i dont see them all as macho. the point is some stuff just feels really wierd. if the scv was a girl? lol that would be wtf. imagine 50 of them.....all women. lol. this is why the girl in every game is gonna be a highly specialized, character. a sleak, sneaky, sexy and flexible highly specialzed character

mr. peasant
06-24-2009, 12:04 PM
you keep proving my point. samus is a sexy, sometimes sneaky, and vey sleak. your not gonna see an averaging looking or butch ugly woman in any of those roles.

Actually, when Metroid first came out, everyone thought Samus was a guy. And when asked, the developers revealed she was supposed to be a guy but they decided to change the gender midway as a twist (without actually changing the armor design). Furthermore, she's about as sleek and 'sexy' as the guys, since they too wear a similar armor to hers. Moreover, there's nothing sneaky at all about her. Samus is most definitely a frontline combatant.


no im saying that starcraft is gonna play on cliche stereotypes. the black guy is in the biggest armor, the battlecruiser captain looks like a white old pirate, the firebat was a guy that smokes cigarettes and is a pyromaniac, the medic was a hot nurse, the vulture is some cow boy, the siege tank is a really really manly tough guy. NEED i continue? lol. out of these stereotypes, the girl in the giant armor isn't gonna fit.

And yet, you keep neglecting the fact that the very concept of Starcraft's Terrans is itself a subversion of common expectations: They're rednecks in space!!

As for your claim that they girls in armor don't fit, look at these:

The Ladette (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLadette)
The Squadette (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSquadette)
Action Girl (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ActionGirl)
Amazon Brigade (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AmazonBrigade)


since when are all they all macho-men? they may mostly be dudes, but i dont see them all as macho. the point is some stuff just feels really wierd. if the scv was a girl? lol that would be wtf. imagine 50 of them.....all women. lol. this is why the girl in every game is gonna be a highly specialized, character. a sleak, sneaky, sexy and flexible highly specialzed character

Well, the current frontline infantry in SC2 all consist of 'tough guy' stereotypes. The Marine will likely act tough, the Reaper's psychotic and the Marauder's a scary, black man.

Warsaw
06-24-2009, 12:24 PM
Mr.peasant those links kind of sucked. Anime? Riiight girls in anime in armor. I hardly see that fitting over into the SC2 world. The sisters of battle... wtf amazon brigade? Seriously thats just a whole different fail within its self.

Girls in armor can work it's just they still have to fit in. A marauder? Dosnt exactly make me think of a huge bulky girl. Im thinking of some big tough ass guy.

mr. peasant
06-24-2009, 12:49 PM
Mr.peasant those links kind of sucked. Anime? Riiight girls in anime in armor. I hardly see that fitting over into the SC2 world. The sisters of battle... wtf amazon brigade? Seriously thats just a whole different fail within its self.

Until you realize that Starcraft, and Blizzard in general, is highly influenced by anime. Just sticking to Starcraft, there's the Goliath, Alan Schezar, Viking, Thor, Battlecruiser (Yamato Cannon) and SC: Nova's art style after Blizzard took over development to name a few.

Warsaw
06-24-2009, 12:52 PM
I really dont see its anime. So they have mechs and big ships. So what? that dosnt exactly scream ANIME! I meen it's sci fi stuff.

Triceron
06-24-2009, 02:11 PM
I see her possibly being like the Big Mama of a bike gang. She's a lady who's tough as nails and handles those boys on a daily basis. You can't talk sass with her or you'll get your ass beat.

Though like I mentioned earlier, the archetype would fit more on a one-off character, like how the Jamaican ghost dude doesn't represent all ghosts.

mr. peasant
06-24-2009, 07:28 PM
I really dont see its anime. So they have mechs and big ships. So what? that dosnt exactly scream ANIME! I meen it's sci fi stuff.

Actually:

Alan Schezar: Named after Allen Schezar from Vision of Escaflowne, who also pilots a mecha.
Viking: Obviously inspired from Transformers. It even references this in its quotes.
Thor: Two words ~ Giant mecha
Battlecruiser: The voice is a homage to a character from Robotech.
Yamato Cannon: A reference to Space Battleship Yamato which has a similar weapon located at the ship's bow.

Pandonetho
06-24-2009, 07:32 PM
They're rednecks in space!!

Name me some redneck units.

Warsaw
06-24-2009, 07:43 PM
I really hope for one they keep redneck units out of the game. There voices get old REALLY fast. Red neck jokes and anything red neck related is not funny!

Nicol Bolas
06-24-2009, 08:03 PM
Name me some redneck units.

Edmund Duke. Arcturus Mengsk. Jim Reynor.

SCVs. Vultures.


Red neck jokes and anything red neck related is not funny!

That's StarCraft. That's what they made. It is the central conceit of the Terrans. Like it or hate it.

Triceron
06-24-2009, 08:18 PM
The whole Redneck thing stems from the influence of Alien. The people in that setting were typical truckers. Starcraft's entire setting is approached similarly, and the kind of people populating the Koprulu sector aren't Starfleet officers or Imperial Stormtroopers. They're resocced criminals and descendants of criminals. It's supposed to be a 'wild west' of sorts.

Nicol Bolas
06-24-2009, 08:22 PM
The whole Redneck thing stems from the influence of Alien.

Which shows that Blizzard wasn't paying attention when they were watching that movie. The point was that space travel was to the point where the average person was doing it. Not that space should be the domain of backwater hicks.

mr. peasant
06-24-2009, 08:25 PM
The whole Redneck thing stems from the influence of Alien. The people in that setting were typical truckers. Starcraft's entire setting is approached similarly, and the kind of people populating the Koprulu sector aren't Starfleet officers or Imperial Stormtroopers. They're resocced criminals and descendants of criminals. It's supposed to be a 'wild west' of sorts.

Regardless, it still subverts the techno-babble-spouting, polyblend-unitard-wearing spacemen that tend to populate Star Trek and most other sci-fi settings.

Pandonetho
06-24-2009, 08:33 PM
Edmund Duke. Arcturus Mengsk. Jim Reynor.

I said units not main characters. And for your information, having a southern accent doesn't automatically relate to being a redneck.

I'd say the only redneck from that list is Edmund Duke. Raynor doesn't even act like a redneck.

mr. peasant
06-24-2009, 09:05 PM
I said units not main characters. And for your information, having a southern accent doesn't automatically relate to being a redneck.

I'd say the only redneck from that list is Edmund Duke. Raynor doesn't even act like a redneck.

Well, if you don't believe that Starcraft's Terrans are rednecks in space, I offer you this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNTifDyogM) as evidence. During the Q&A session (specifically between 6.05 - 9.03), when asked about the influences affecting Starcraft, etc., Chris Metzen himself specifically said the phrase 'rednecks in space' a couple times. That's right; not Karune, not a Blizzard rep, but the lore master himself.

Pandonetho
06-25-2009, 12:18 AM
Yes, but the lore master himself doesn't know what he's talking about. He may have been inspired by the idea, and there may be some few rednecks shown, but hardly any of the main characters of the SC universe are rednecks, and definitely not the Terran army in the game.

I've read the books as well, and I can't say there are many rednecks in any of em if any.

Read the frontline Volumes, can't say I saw a single redneck in them.

Nicol Bolas
06-25-2009, 12:51 AM
Yes, but the lore master himself doesn't know what he's talking about.

Well, since it's his universe, I'm going to have to go with his interpretation of it (silly though it is).

Triceron
06-25-2009, 02:04 AM
Watch any of the SC cinematics. Hell even the VERY FIRST teaser Starcraft cinematic with the ship being blown by the Protoss Mothership had rednecks in it.

You can't just hide behind the 'units aren't redneck' argument. This is all part of the same universe.

Pandonetho
06-25-2009, 03:59 PM
Watch any of the SC cinematics. Hell even the VERY FIRST teaser Starcraft cinematic with the ship being blown by the Protoss Mothership had rednecks in it.

You can't just hide behind the 'units aren't redneck' argument. This is all part of the same universe.


Your point? There are some rednecks I can't deny, but to claim the Terran race is just rednecks in space is retarded. I can do the same thing you just did, I'll point out EVERY SINGLE NON UNIT CHARACTER IN THE UNIVERSE THAT ISN'T A REDNECK. I'm sure I'll vastly outnumber the amount of people you'll find that are rednecks.

ArcherofAiur
06-25-2009, 04:10 PM
And another SCLegacy thread becomes polarized to the point of ridiculous.

mr. peasant
06-25-2009, 04:52 PM
Your point? There are some rednecks I can't deny, but to claim the Terran race is just rednecks in space is retarded. I can do the same thing you just did, I'll point out EVERY SINGLE NON UNIT CHARACTER IN THE UNIVERSE THAT ISN'T A REDNECK. I'm sure I'll vastly outnumber the amount of people you'll find that are rednecks.

So, you're ignoring the fact that the creators of the game intended, and still intends, that the Terrans are in fact rednecks in space? And that the people in attendance understood and approved of said comment? If the creator sees it that way and there are audience members who also see it that way, then it is canon beyond dispute.

Seriously, what you're doing is comparable to those Harry Potter fanatics who think Draco is some anti-hero and are ignoring when the creator says outright it isn't so.

Pandonetho
06-25-2009, 04:58 PM
So, you're ignoring the fact that the creators of the game intended, and still intends, that the Terrans are in fact rednecks in space? And that the people in attendance understood and approved of said comment? If the creator sees it that way and there are audience members who also see it that way, then it is canon beyond dispute.

Seriously, what you're doing is comparable to those Harry Potter fanatics who think Draco is some anti-hero and are ignoring when the creator says outright it isn't so.

They can say what they want, I hardly consider the thousands of resocialized marines rednecks, I don't know about you.

Quit bringing up the "the game creator said so!!111" argument, it's useless. Until you can provide facts of the Terrans being rednecks in space besides the couple examples or cinematics, all that has been said is that the guy wanted rednecks in space. Well it didn't happen, none of the authorized book writers made rednecks in space, none of the game units are rednecks in space. None of them act like rednecks in space when they talk. It's a stupid bandwagon that you just jumped on.

Nicol Bolas
06-25-2009, 05:32 PM
Until you can provide facts of the Terrans being rednecks in space besides the couple examples or cinematics

Oh, I see. So you're simply dismissing the evidence provided as not being "enough" for you. I'm sorry, but ignoring the facts is not a way of knowing things.

Pandonetho
06-25-2009, 05:36 PM
I'm sorry, do you want me to point you out to both the Frontline volumes, every single unit in the game, and ALL the books just to prove my point?

Hmm, I swear when I was watching the SC:Ghost trailer, I didn't just see an army of rednecks fighting the Zerg.

You guys pointed out what, two examples? Maybe it was Metzan's original vision, after all that cinematic in SC1 had what was supposed to be a mothership, that was a long long time ago. It's different now.

Warsaw
06-25-2009, 05:38 PM
I'm going to reform my opinion. SC1 did have a lot of Red necks in space feel I hope how ever in sc2 they lighten the load on it. It just... ehhh. I didnt really care for all the red neck cinematics.

"ssaarge I think you hit a zeeerg" Or w/e it was. rednecks are not amusing.

Pandonetho
06-25-2009, 05:41 PM
I'm going to reform my opinion. SC1 did have a lot of Red necks in space feel I hope how ever in sc2 they lighten the load on it. It just... ehhh. I didnt really care for all the red neck cinematics.

Are you kidding me? SC1 didn't have a lot of rednecks. Jumping on the bandwagon I see? I still have yet to see anyone provide definitive evidence besides showing the odd redneck around.

SC2 has more rednecks, such as the Thor. But that unit is just thrown in and terrible anyway.


"ssaarge I think you hit a zeeerg" Or w/e it was. rednecks are not amusing.

You're right, it wasn't amusing.

Warsaw
06-25-2009, 06:44 PM
I think Sc1 had a lot of rednecks. More then I like anyway. As far as Im concerned 1 redneck is to many.

Nicol Bolas
06-25-2009, 07:30 PM
every single unit in the game

Except for the SCV, Vulture, and arguably Raynor.

And the game is what is important. As far as the game is concerned, the vast majority of people we see are stereotypical rednecks. That various other writers don't properly depict this is irrelevant next to the fact that the world as presented by the game seems to be dominated by rednecks.

Pandonetho
06-25-2009, 08:06 PM
Except for the SCV, Vulture, and arguably Raynor.

The vulture isn't a redneck. Do you even know what a redneck is? And no, Raynor isn't a redneck.


And the game is what is important.

Exactly, I just don't see how you can be so blind about it.


As far as the game is concerned, the vast majority of people we see are stereotypical rednecks. That various other writers don't properly depict this is irrelevant next to the fact that the world as presented by the game seems to be dominated by rednecks.

Um, like Edmund Duke? Good job that's 1 character.

Nicol Bolas
06-25-2009, 09:22 PM
The vulture isn't a redneck. Do you even know what a redneck is? And no, Raynor isn't a redneck.

There are many kinds of rednecks. Not all of them are the stereotypical "Cletus-from-Simpsons" style. And the Vulture does fall into this category.


Um, like Edmund Duke? Good job that's 1 character.

You also must add all of the Terrans in every cutscene. That's a good 10+ characters. Oh that's right, I forgot. They don't count because counting them would damage your case.

Pandonetho
06-26-2009, 12:06 AM
A good 10+ characters my ass. Name them all then.

The vulture fits the stereotypical gangster badass. You're just an idiot.

Let's see, I'll give you the moronic marine from the Amerigo cinematic, and then there's those 2 from the Starcraft 1 intro, and then there's Lester and Sarge and the outpost guy that got pwned.

That's 6, including Edmund duke is 7.

Now let's count everyone who isn't a redneck in the cinematics. There's Gerard Dugalle, Stukov, Mr. Malmsteen, the marine from the BW intro, the second marine from the BW intro, the Sarge from The Ambush, the other marines from the Amerigo, and everyone from the ending cinatic The Inauguration. There's all the marines, Nova, the sarge and the lieutenant from the MUCH more recent SC: Ghost trailer, and then there's Tychus Findlay from SC2.

Oh look, there are easily more people who aren't rednecks than there are. You're truly a silly man if the statement "rednecks in space" means less than 1% of the Terran population consisting of Rednecks to you.

And I highly doubt we'll see a single redneck in any cinematic for SC2.

You don't have a case. All you have are a couple of outdated cinematics that aren't even accurate to the SC universe. I have pretty much all the current lore standing for my case and none of the new stories have shown a single redneck.

Except for the utmost recent stories which I haven't read yet, maybe Kimera might like to point out if there are rednecks in the SC: Comic?

mr. peasant
06-26-2009, 05:57 AM
The vulture fits the stereotypical gangster badass. You're just an idiot.

Actually, the Vulture was more of a biker; who can also be categorized as a redneck.


Now let's count everyone who isn't a redneck in the cinematics. There's Gerard Dugalle, Stukov, Mr. Malmsteen, the marine from the BW intro, the second marine from the BW intro, the Sarge from The Ambush, the other marines from the Amerigo, and everyone from the ending cinatic The Inauguration. There's all the marines, Nova, the sarge and the lieutenant from the MUCH more recent SC: Ghost trailer, and then there's Tychus Findlay from SC2.

Wow, congratulations on the three highlighted. They're not Terrans! They're UED. Also, the Sarge from the Ambush was a redneck, as was the sentry in that cinematic. The same goes for a few of the Marines in the Amerigo cinematic.


You don't have a case. All you have are a couple of outdated cinematics that aren't even accurate to the SC universe. I have pretty much all the current lore standing for my case and none of the new stories have shown a single redneck.

Our case rests on the word of God (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.WordOfGod), which in this case form a united opinion that people have embraced. This is backed up by evidence within the game that you continue to ignore.

I don't know what your defintion of redneck is, but one from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck) describes it as a person, often Caucasian, of lower socio-economic status and typically, though not exclusively, from the Southern United States. They are generally seen as uneducated and/or ignorant but resourceful enough to outwit others. Rednecks are often stereotypically depicted as beer-guzzling, gun-loving smokers and are usually associated with the Confederate flag along with a love for vulgar language (reference: here (http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Redneck_-_Stereotypes/id/5412816)). In my opinion, a lot of Terran (not UED humans) fall into this category.

Aldrius
06-26-2009, 05:08 PM
she isn't bad looking since she is kinda old. but she is def sleak, sneaky and flexible.

She's also tough as nails, fights using a fighting style that's very similar to Judo (all grabs and holds), and I don't get 'feminine'. She looks like Cate Blanchett and is realistically muscular for a woman. (i.e. not a body-builder, but athletic) She's certainly not 'pretty' or 'dainty'. And she's not 'flexible' (what do you even mean by that?)

Same goes for Big Mama and Olga in the same series.

None of them are ugly, but they don't have to be ugly to be physically powerful. And being attractive doesn't automatically make somebody 'sexy'.


kerrigan is def super feminine. she is sleak, flexible, sneaky and trying to be made increasingly sexy.

And yeah, I wouldn't call Kerrigan 'feminine' either. But that also depends on the artists interpretation. Metzen's drawings of Kerrigan for example are much less curvaceous, and I mean if you look at the cover of "Uprising" you can hardly tell that's a woman.

SC2-art-wise, though... hmm... I wouldn't say she's looked particularly feminine. With the wings and the body-armor and all.


you gotta look at things in terms of ratios man. how many men are on the frontlines infantry in most country's armies compared to women.

Why does that matter in a fictional universe set hundreds of years in the future...?

This is art. Art should reflect some semblance reality and the artists' imagination, and the reality is that there are women in the military and armed forces. And the reality is that women are a major part of human society and always have been.



again...people expect starcraft 2 to somehow break the social barriers society has created to reflect our society instead of what human universal society has always been like. men soldiers outnumber women soldiers probably with a higher ratio than like 10:1. this is why they are specialized.


That's not why they're specialized. They're specialized because it's 'safe'. In the media and art it's 'okay' for women to play the roles of mothers or healers or to be sexy assassins in skin-tight latex. Nobody takes issue with that. It's not reflecting reality or whatever, it's just what the public at large is okay with and it's that's what Blizzard is reflecting.

And I really don't expect Blizzard to break social barriers, but I expect them to break a few artistic barriers in video games, and what roles women are allowed to play, and quite frankly if the Banshee for example, is no longer female, then they're just going backwards, not forwards.

Pandonetho
06-26-2009, 06:38 PM
Wow, congratulations on the three highlighted. They're not Terrans! They're UED. Also, the Sarge from the Ambush was a redneck, as was the sentry in that cinematic. The same goes for a few of the Marines in the Amerigo cinematic.

Terrans means humans from Earth, are you saying they're not humans that came from Earth? Good job, you just classified people from Earth, and Terrans as different things. Talk about fail. The Sarge from the Ambush a redneck? And what gave you that idea?

And the same for the Amerigo marines? Right, you can say they're rednecks when they didn't say a single word except for that one marine.


Our case rests on the word of God, which in this case form a united opinion that people have embraced. This is backed up by evidence within the game that you continue to ignore.

That people have embraced? I'd like to see your survey on that. And you're ignoring the dozens of other things I've pointed out, such as the 99% of the other Terrans not being rednecks.


I don't know what your defintion of redneck is, but one from Wikipedia describes it as a person, often Caucasian, of lower socio-economic status and typically, though not exclusively, from the Southern United States. They are generally seen as uneducated and/or ignorant but resourceful enough to outwit others. Rednecks are often stereotypically depicted as beer-guzzling, gun-loving smokers and are usually associated with the Confederate flag along with a love for vulgar language (reference: here). In my opinion, a lot of Terran (not UED humans) fall into this category.

Alright sure, let's say the confederates are a bunch of rednecks. Prove that since the Dominion has taken over, that it's still rednecks in space. Because as far as I'm concerned, most of your case lies with the confederates, and once again outdated cinematics. You think there's a difference between Terran and Earthlings, and all your examples are of when the confederates were in power.

And as for your case resting with god, god can say anything but it won't mean anything if he doesn't DO anything. Go join a catholic church and you can listen to the word of god all you want there.

Warsaw
06-26-2009, 06:51 PM
Woow. Bashing god now. I like where this is going. :D

Nicol Bolas
06-26-2009, 07:09 PM
once again outdated cinematics

That are in the game under discussion. I thought that we agreed that the final arbiter was the game. Oh, that's right; it doesn't support your side, so it doesn't count.


Prove that since the Dominion has taken over, that it's still rednecks in space.

Are you saying that the Dominion murdered every civilian in the old Confederacy? They took out Tarsonis via the Zerg, but they didn't kill off every Confederate.

See, our side doesn't have to prove their position. You're making the claim that smacks in the face of what the primary material suggests, as well as what the creator of that material has stated. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Pandonetho
06-26-2009, 08:02 PM
Edit: Actually nvm, I'm tired about arguing on this subject. If you guys think they're nothing but a bunch of rednecks in space, fine with me.

Nicol Bolas
06-26-2009, 08:32 PM
If you guys think they're nothing but a bunch of rednecks in space, fine with me.

That is the crux of the issue: you think them being "nothing but a bunch of rednecks in space" denigrates them. That them being such makes them irrelevant, distasteful, or some other such negative thing.

mr. peasant
06-26-2009, 08:41 PM
And back on topic: Regardless whether Terrans are specifically rednecks or not, there is no denying the fact that they are a far cry away from the techno-savvy, spandex-jumpsuit-wearing space-folk that are traditionally associated with sci-fi such as in Star Trek, Starship Troopers, Battlestar Galactica, etc. They're a lot rougher around the edges and certainly less clean-cut. In other words, they subvert this particular sci-fi stereotype.

Therefore, it proves that Blizzard is not above going against people's expectations to create unique personalities. Specific to combat-centric females, they've done it before. In Diablo 2, the Amazon was pretty much a combatant; and much tougher than the male casters. In Warcraft, the Night Elves are lore-wise a race composed entirely of female warriors whilst the males took support/caster roles.

warrior6
06-27-2009, 01:25 AM
And yet, you keep neglecting the fact that the very concept of Starcraft's Terrans is itself a subversion of common expectations: They're rednecks in space!!

As for your claim that they girls in armor don't fit, look at these:

The Ladette (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLadette)
The Squadette (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheSquadette)
Action Girl (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ActionGirl)
Amazon Brigade (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AmazonBrigade)

wth r u talking about, those links are a massive truck load of fail.


Well, the current frontline infantry in SC2 all consist of 'tough guy' stereotypes. The Marine will likely act tough, the Reaper's psychotic and the Marauder's a scary, black man.

and what is your point?


In Warcraft, the Night Elves are lore-wise a race composed entirely of female warriors whilst the males took support/caster roles.

yes a race of sexy slim elves with great curves.

Nicol Bolas
06-27-2009, 01:41 AM
and what is your point?

That there is a complete lack of variety in the Terran lineup. They all sound the same.

horror
06-27-2009, 12:28 PM
the only reason i wouldn't like it is that bliz would probably over-emphasize certain parts of the design :S

imdrunkontea
06-29-2009, 12:39 PM
Apparently Banshees are female again:


There are new voiceovers for all units, including a clever Batman reference in the Terran Banshee when the female pilot announces, "Turbines to speed!" as you move the unit around

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/06/29/hands-on-starcraft-2-multiplayer/

Pandonetho
06-29-2009, 12:51 PM
*Sigh*

Well, there goes the awesome male banshee portrait.

Aldrius
06-29-2009, 01:00 PM
*Sigh*

Well, there goes the awesome male banshee portrait.

It's in the game somewhere.

Pandonetho
06-29-2009, 01:00 PM
Yeah hopefully in the MULTIPLAYER portion somewhere.

Aldrius
06-29-2009, 01:24 PM
Yeah hopefully in the MULTIPLAYER portion somewhere.

I don't really see why that matters... but okay.

And I'm not even sure where it'd come in in the multiplayer.

It's probably just like when they were using Tychus' portrait for the Marines. Because it doesn't look like the concept art for the Viking, and I've got... no idea what else it could be. The only other unaccounted portrait at this point is the Ghost, which it definitely isn't.

Pandonetho
06-29-2009, 01:26 PM
It matters because it's a kickass portrait.

But it won't matter if the female one is as equally badass.

mr. peasant
06-29-2009, 01:41 PM
*Sigh*

Well, there goes the awesome male banshee portrait.

Maybe they'll use it to replace another unit. Say... the Thor? I really hate that bandanna-wearing biker wannabe. :D

Or more than likely, the female portrait will be largely the same save for a female face instead of the old, male one.

Aldrius
06-29-2009, 01:47 PM
Maybe they'll use it to replace another unit. Say... the Thor? I really hate that bandanna-wearing biker wannabe. :D

Or more than likely, the female portrait will be largely the same save for a female face instead of the old, male one.

I'm pretty sure that was never the Banshee portrait. Just a placeholder used so that it wasn't the Adjutant again.

mr. peasant
06-29-2009, 01:55 PM
I'm pretty sure that was never the Banshee portrait. Just a placeholder used so that it wasn't the Adjutant again.

Placeholder or not, it still exists and so can be shuffled around and/or modified as they see fit. If they liked it enough, they'll find a home for it.

Aldrius
06-29-2009, 03:19 PM
Placeholder or not, it still exists and so can be shuffled around and/or modified as they see fit. If they liked it enough, they'll find a home for it.

Not placeholder as in 'just made temporarily'.

Placeholder as in 'made for this campaign unit or editor unit and used on the Banshee because she doesn't have a portrait yet'. Like using the Adjutant portrait on the Thor.

But I think we're saying the same thing anyway: it'll be in the game somewhere.

Ghost_828
07-04-2009, 09:13 AM
Although this argument is all very amusing, I must say that, even disregarding the visual aspects, the idea of a female Marauder doesn't 'feel' right.
However, I do believe that the idea of female Terran troops is not a bad one. It just has to be implemented correctly.
One might even go the Dark Templar way and create a unit that, when built, randomly conforms to one of two presets (male or female in this case), if it is really so critical.

Generic
07-04-2009, 09:48 PM
I like it because it is Ironic.

Medzo
07-06-2009, 09:16 AM
I would like to see a female ghost.

warrior6
07-06-2009, 10:06 AM
That there is a complete lack of variety in the Terran lineup. They all sound the same.

i'd say they may have over-done texas accents a bit much but each terran unit definitely felt unique

Josue
10-22-2009, 12:44 PM
Although this argument is all very amusing, I must say that, even disregarding the visual aspects, the idea of a female Marauder doesn't 'feel' right.
However, I do believe that the idea of female Terran troops is not a bad one. It just has to be implemented correctly.
One might even go the Dark Templar way and create a unit that, when built, randomly conforms to one of two presets (male or female in this case), if it is really so critical.

I would like to see a female ghost.

This is what I've been thinking.
Protoss already got some diversity with Dark Templars being randomly spawned both models. Why not do the same with terran ghosts? I mean, likewise, spawn male or female terran ghosts?

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 01:25 PM
Now how did this thread elude my grasp this whole time?

Marauder = female FTW. Samus. Starbuck. How much more proof is needed that a sexy female inside a non-sexy suit of armor/ship is just as sexy? (and very bad-ass, lest someone suggest the connection wasn't made)

Yes, it works as a subversion of expectations, which is what makes it memorable. But it's also been proven to work in other franchises just fine.

I've been behind this movement since Day 1, and I'm still just as behind it as ever before. The game needs more females, and throwing them into purely supporting roles isn't the way to go about it.



On a side-note, how sure are we that everything in the female Banshee build is up-to-speed? "Turbines to speed!" sounds exactly like something the ORIGINAL Banshee (before we got the male pilot) would have said, so why would they switch it... just to switch it?

That's another thing I don't get about having the male pilot be a placeholder. They already HAD a placeholder before they put him there. A unique portrait AND unique, if placeholder, lines (Don't tell me you all forget about that annoying "Are you ready for some death from above?!"). Why would you replace it with something else completely temporary? It makes no sense.

If it IS true, that female pilot has VERY high expectations to live up to.

FrozenArbiter
10-22-2009, 01:41 PM
EDIT: Wtf there are 15 pages in this thread, I really did not see that - sorry for (probably) repeating what's already been said.

Off the top of my head, I think the units best suited for being re-done as females are:

Ghosts
Hellions

(which would put the total at 4, with the Banshee and Medivac) EDIT: Or is the Banshee not female anymore? :S

I guess some of the others could work (Vikings maybe? but then they should be called Valkyries really, with the whole shield maiden thing of norse lore).

Josue
10-22-2009, 01:46 PM
EDIT: Wtf there are 15 pages in this thread, I really did not see that - sorry for (probably) repeating what's already been said.

Off the top of my head, I think the units best suited for being re-done as females are:

Ghosts
Hellions

(which would put the total at 4, with the Banshee and Medivac) EDIT: Or is the Banshee not female anymore? :S

I guess some of the others could work (Vikings maybe? but then they should be called Valkyries really, with the whole shield maiden thing of norse lore).

This is what I've been thinking.
Protoss already got some diversity with Dark Templars being randomly spawned both models. Why not do the same with terran ghosts? I mean, likewise, spawn male or female terran ghosts?
well? thinking the same thing (about the ghost), ain't we?
EDIT
Voted undecided BTW.

newcomplex
10-22-2009, 01:52 PM
I don't really think its nessicary.

I honestly don't think "sexual equality" in a game is a good idea, simply because it really requires a suspension of disbelief. For instance, WoW, which was originally base on a medeval timeset, with originally very medival concepts, the guards of major cities in all races are 50% female. Thats just ridiculous.

Their are too many sociological and biological factors that would make females presence statistically equal to males in a military organization.

its fine. (though the ghost spawning in both genders make sense, I dont see why not)

DemolitionSquid
10-22-2009, 01:52 PM
Medevac
Banshee
Ghost
and possibly Hellion.

The Marauder being female is a dumb idea.

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 01:56 PM
Medevac
Banshee
Ghost
and possibly Hellion.

The Marauder being female is a dumb idea.

You're a dumb idea.

Samus Aran. It has happened. It works. Well.

DemolitionSquid
10-22-2009, 01:58 PM
You're a dumb idea.

Samus Aran. It has happened. It works. Well.

Look, more dumbness.

Samus is not a Marauder. Shes closer to, surprise, a Ghost.

newcomplex
10-22-2009, 01:59 PM
You people are stupid. Samus aran, that chick from metal gear, or the chick from mass effect.

Those units are exceptions. They would be the starcraft equivelents of HEROS units, not unit portraits.

The entire point of unit portraits is to stereotype. We stereotype the kind of people most often preforming the roles, whether a slick machiavellian and deadly ghost, to the redneck uneducated jockish marine, to the sexy and affirming role of medics.


I dont see how a female marauder, or a female marine would serve to stereotype marines. A good hero unit no doubt, but not a good stereotype.

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 02:01 PM
Look, more dumbness.

Samus is not a Marauder. Shes closer to, surprise, a Ghost.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize StarCraft had to copy other games' ideas pixel-for-pixel or else they'd be dumb.

You're OK with Metroid having done something that hadn't been mainstreamized before -- putting a female into a bad-ass mech and making it work -- but... not OK with StarCraft taking it one step further?

Yeah, cause that's not like a double-standard at all, or anything.


Those units are exceptions. They would be the starcraft equivelents of HEROS units, not unit portraits.

The entire point of unit portraits is to stereotype. We stereotype the kind of people most often preforming the roles, whether a slick machiavellian and deadly ghost, to the redneck uneducated jockish marine, to the sexy and affirming role of medics.


I dont see how a female marauder, or a female marine would serve to stereotype marines. A good hero unit no doubt, but not a good stereotype.

So we stereotype the working class of Terran society with hick-ish black people?

Hey, nicely done!

Pandonetho
10-22-2009, 02:03 PM
lol.

I think the Banshee should be female because well, Banshees are female things right? But I'm fine with it being a male because I liked the model fine.

I'm in the boat for keeping the Marauder male. Would support having 2 Ghost models, 1 male 1 female though really the current Ghost has the face masked so it wouldn't make any difference except for the voice (unless we change up the gear).

I think the Medivac was male in BR4 but I'm not sure. Anyway, the only units I think should be female are the Medivac, Banshee, and the Ghost. The current Hellion not only looks like ass IMO (the unit model), the portrait also looks like ass.

In general I think females having a support role is more fitting, since it kind of just feels wrong to me to have 50% of your army as male marines, and the other 50% as female Marauders, it gives me the feeling that females would start to be dominating the population of military units (since Marauders are so massable).

Blazur
10-22-2009, 02:04 PM
Of all the units to consider for a female role the Marauder has to be the least plausible.

Caliban113
10-22-2009, 02:14 PM
For some reason i thought, tha the banshee used to be female :S
Edit: Didn't the banshee used to be a female, or was i dreaming?

I remember seeing a shaky-cam replay way back when (before the Medevac) where it sounded like they were using the Dropship voice for the Banshee. I figured it was a placeholder. (?)

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 02:15 PM
Of all the units to consider for a female role the Marauder has to be the least plausible.

Of all the ways to argue the point that Marauders shouldn't be female this has to be the least sensible.

With few notable exceptions -- resocced Marines and Ghosts, worst-of-the-worst Reapers -- unit voices in no way, shape, or form represent some sort of "standard." It is ludicrous to suggest that Vulture pilots are all rebels straight out of Texas Ranger; or that Wraith pilots are all cocky; or that Goliaths are all calculating and follow orders to the letter; or that Siege Tank pilots are all gung-ho about combat. Each unit would have a roughly equal mix of every personality, but obviously we can't do that, we have to settle on just one.

So they pick it. Randomly. Yes, there are deciding factors, it isn't completely random. But to suggest that the Viking or Banshee is somehow more "plausibly" female-piloted than the Marauder is just silly. Until lore necessitates a gender (or racial) predominance one way or the other, their plausibility factor is exactly equivalent.

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 02:23 PM
I remember seeing a shaky-cam replay way back when (before the Medevac) where it sounded like they were using the Dropship voice for the Banshee. I figured it was a placeholder. (?)

It wasn't the Dropship voice. She had original lines, like "Thrusters to full power!" and "Ready for some death from above?!"

It was pretty annoying.

Pandonetho
10-22-2009, 02:26 PM
Yes, it actually was very annoying. I was horrified when I heard those lines.

Caliban113
10-22-2009, 02:35 PM
"Ready for some death from above?!"

It was pretty annoying.

Thats right - I remember that now - oy.

It wasn't the level of "Big Boy....training" - but somewhere up around there... :)


.

newcomplex
10-22-2009, 02:37 PM
Of all the ways to argue the point that Marauders shouldn't be female this has to be the least sensible.

With few notable exceptions -- resocced Marines and Ghosts, worst-of-the-worst Reapers -- unit voices in no way, shape, or form represent some sort of "standard." It is ludicrous to suggest that Vulture pilots are all rebels straight out of Texas Ranger; or that Wraith pilots are all cocky; or that Goliaths are all calculating and follow orders to the letter; or that Siege Tank pilots are all gung-ho about combat. Each unit would have a roughly equal mix of every personality, but obviously we can't do that, we have to settle on just one.

So they pick it. Randomly. Yes, there are deciding factors, it isn't completely random. But to suggest that the Viking or Banshee is somehow more "plausibly" female-piloted than the Marauder is just silly. Until lore necessitates a gender (or racial) predominance one way or the other, their plausibility factor is exactly equivalent.

We don't need lore. SC is set 500 years from present day reality, after a sequence of events made up by metzen. Do you think that gender roles would be non-existent 500 years in the future where females would be regularly employed as heavy assault infantry?

And it isn't ludicrous to assume personality based on position in the army. The commander of a ship would act notably different then its gunner. I would say that I picture pilots acting and talking very differently then marines when on duty. Riding a vulture is a high risk job thats really cheap on thrills. Their could probably be a stereotype on people who accept such jobs, as opposed to "safer" jobs. Such as golaith pilots (which are also much higher rank then vulture pilots)

screw_ball69
10-22-2009, 02:50 PM
You know when ever the gender issue comes up in sc it always manages to go to the Terran's, but why are there no female Protoss units?

Eligor
10-22-2009, 02:53 PM
You know when ever the gender issue comes up in sc it always manages to go to the Terran's, but why are there no female Protoss units?

Because the whole Protoss racial identity is rather "masculine", or at least lacking in feminine qualities. Has to do with the archetypes they represent.

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 02:54 PM
And it isn't ludicrous to assume personality based on position in the army. The commander of a ship would act notably different then its gunner.

We don't get to see them act -- we act FOR them. We only get to hear the way they talk, and there is a HUGE distinction between these two things.

Just because a person is of a high rank doesn't mean they don't express emotion. The Goliath, Wraith, Valkyrie -- all are high-ranking officers, but they have completely different personalities. Is piloting a Wraith and Valkyrie really THAT different? Is the Goliath pilot going to have a monotone voice just because he's on the ground, fighting off swarms of Zerglings, as opposed to in the air, fighting off swarms of Mutalisks?

I am not saying that a statistical analysis wouldn't yield SOME tendencies... but these tendencies were chosen arbitrarily. The Goliath could have been cocky while the Wraith was by-the-rules and it would have worked just as well.

DemolitionSquid
10-22-2009, 02:56 PM
You know when ever the gender issue comes up in sc it always manages to go to the Terran's, but why are there no female Protoss units?

The Terran population of the K-Sector is still high enough to allow the use of women in combat. But Protoss are not as prolific as Terrans. They just had 70% of their population on Auir killed. They are also not all warriors. I'm sure at this point most female Protoss are choosing stay-at-home roles as they try to rebuild.

Eligor
10-22-2009, 03:01 PM
I think, by the way, that a female Marauder is rather nice idea. It's unusual and would call for a much more different and interesting voice acting than the male version.

FrozenArbiter
10-22-2009, 03:03 PM
The Terran population of the K-Sector is still high enough to allow the use of women in combat. But Protoss are not as prolific as Terrans. They just had 70% of their population on Auir killed. They are also not all warriors. I'm sure at this point most female Protoss are choosing stay-at-home roles as they try to rebuild.

Isn't the mothership female? Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me...

DemolitionSquid
10-22-2009, 03:04 PM
Isn't the mothership female? Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me...

Yes, it is. It is also the highest tech Protoss unit available, and you can only have one at a time. In times of such severe crisis, it is only logical to keep women out of combat. Just like in our own World Wars.

Quirel
10-22-2009, 03:37 PM
If I remember correctly, there was an idea a while back to have female/male Ghost units that spawned randomly, like the Villagers in AoE 2. I wouldn't mind that, but I'm not sure I'd like the female Marauder.

Firebats? Maybe.
Marines? Probably not, but wouldn't mind more than one portrait for that unit.
Raven? Yeah.
Hellion? Hell yes.

In addition, I seem to remember a discussion years back over whether there are Female Marines. Someone claimed that females would be too weak, a laughable claim with the abundance of steroids and power armor in StarCraft. Not to mention the existence of female Marines in the novels "Speed of Darkness" and "I, Mengsk".

Tigger
10-22-2009, 05:17 PM
If I remember correctly, there was an idea a while back to have female/male Ghost units that spawned randomly, like the Villagers in AoE 2. I wouldn't mind that, but I'm not sure I'd like the female Marauder.

Firebats? Maybe.
Marines? Probably not, but wouldn't mind more than one portrait for that unit.
Raven? Yeah.
Hellion? Hell yes.

In addition, I seem to remember a discussion years back over whether there are Female Marines. Someone claimed that females would be too weak, a laughable claim with the abundance of steroids and power armor in StarCraft. Not to mention the existence of female Marines in the novels "Speed of Darkness" and "I, Mengsk".

I like the idea of occasional female marines and ghosts, not Marauders though.

ArcherofAiur
10-22-2009, 06:41 PM
Umm you cant make the maurader female. The portrait is black and if you change it then you are racist. Of course you could make it a black female but then your gonna get a whole lot of accusations that you are just trying to fill your quota.

Sarov
10-22-2009, 06:46 PM
Umm you cant make the maurader female. The portrait is black and if you change it then you are racist. Of course you could make it a black female but then your gonna get a whole lot of accusations that you are just trying to fill your quota.

Wait... wait a minute. There's a black unit in StarCraft II? :eek:

ArcherofAiur
10-22-2009, 06:48 PM
Wait... wait a minute. There's a black unit in StarCraft II? :eek:

Yup :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scr63qkJeWA&feature=player_embedded

Nicol Bolas
10-22-2009, 07:45 PM
Do you think that gender roles would be non-existent 500 years in the future where females would be regularly employed as heavy assault infantry?

No, but I'm guessing that when the Zerg Swarm is breathing down your neck, you're not going to give a damn about the gender of the person in the heavy assault armor next to you. If survival means ditching that particular gender role and getting some warm, trained bodies in heavy assault armor, then they're going to do that.

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 07:53 PM
Umm you cant make the maurader female. The portrait is black and if you change it then you are racist. Of course you could make it a black female but then your gonna get a whole lot of accusations that you are just trying to fill your quota.

For all we know the Ghost is black under that mask. Then we can cut one and give it to females. Cause Earth populations aside, the K-sector population obviously has more females than it does black people.

Or the Viking can be black. Or... plenty of units, really. The Marauder's kind of the easiest way out. He's like the big tough Marine. Big tough guy = black guy. Eh.

Crazy_Jonny
10-22-2009, 08:01 PM
Im all for equal rights, but StarCraft aint the place for it. We need our rednecks hard at work in the mines, tough black guys in heavy suits, and sexy ghosts and nurses. Its COOL!


You're a dumb idea.

Samus Aran. It has happened. It works. Well.

Samus's armor was sleek, the marauder is big and bulky. It would have to be a hero unit, which now that I think about it, doesn't sound bad.

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 08:12 PM
Samus's armor was sleek, the marauder is big and bulky. It would have to be a hero unit, which now that I think about it, doesn't sound bad.

Why would it be OK for a hero but not OK for a non-hero? :P

Crazy_Jonny
10-22-2009, 09:04 PM
Why would it be OK for a hero but not OK for a non-hero? :P

I meant it shouldnt take the place of a marauder, maybe as its own unit. If there was no room, make it a hero.

Pandonetho
10-22-2009, 09:16 PM
I watched the BR again, is it just me or does the medivac look like a male? I can't tell specifically.

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 09:22 PM
I meant it shouldnt take the place of a marauder, maybe as its own unit. If there was no room, make it a hero.

I find it a little weird to suggest that it was OK for Metroid to mainstreamize a non-mainstream concept (sexy chick piloting a bad-ass robot suit), but that StarCraft can't do that.

Stinks a bit of double-standards.

DemolitionSquid
10-22-2009, 10:10 PM
I find it a little weird to suggest that it was OK for Metroid to mainstreamize a non-mainstream concept (sexy chick piloting a bad-ass robot suit), but that StarCraft can't do that.

Stinks a bit of double-standards.

Its not a double standard. Samus's suit is form fitting, and while you couldn't tell in the original 8 bit, its a very feminine design. Her ability to curl up into ball mode requires flexibility a man couldn't really have. Its just the nature of the suit, and the role she plays as singular character like a Ghost, not usually part of a larger army.

Would you support the Thor having a female driver, for any reason other than the sake of having more women represented? No. The Marauder as a female just doesn't feel right for the same reasons.

Its not that we don't want female units, we obviously do. But they should make sense in what roles they play in the military, and having squads of Marauders all female just doesn't make sense. Women are simply more valuable than men because of the almighty uterus, and thus need to take protected, support (MedEvac), or highly skilled (Banshee, Ghost) positions.

Nicol Bolas
10-22-2009, 10:46 PM
Would you support the Thor having a female driver, for any reason other than the sake of having more women represented? No. The Marauder as a female just doesn't feel right for the same reasons.

You're assuming that the only valid reason to have a woman in the Thor would be to have more women represented. That's utter nonsense.

One reason would be to subvert expectations. It's something people wouldn't expect, rather than what they have now (which is what everyone expects). Doing what people expect is boring and common.

I'd even go so far as to have a Summer Glau-type woman driving a Thor.

The simple fact is that following along to obvious gender expectations/biases isn't interesting. It's boring. It's what everybody does; that's why those expectations exist.

The reason "Samus is a girl" works is because it's not what you expect.

Pandonetho
10-22-2009, 10:52 PM
Except SC is awesome with stereotypes.

Seriously, Dugalle the French Admiral... loses the war. w00 for him.

ArcherofAiur
10-22-2009, 10:53 PM
Make the marine a woman, actually no make all terran units women. That will surprise people!

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 10:57 PM
Its not that we don't want female units, we obviously do. But they should make sense in what roles they play in the military, and having squads of Marauders all female just doesn't make sense. Women are simply more valuable than men because of the almighty uterus, and thus need to take protected, support (MedEvac), or highly skilled (Banshee, Ghost) positions.

I don't actually agree with the idea that the unit's appearance and voice are supposed to represent the majority of that unit type.

Black people shouldn't be the majority of anything anywhere, yet the SCV pilot is black. People with Russians accents shouldn't be the majority of anything anywhere, yet the Battlecruiser captain speaks with one. Same for the Valkyrie pilot being female and German. I mean, seriously, that's TWO minorities. What are the chances that the most common Valkyrie type fighter pilot is both at the same time?

None of these are representative of any averages, and they don't "make sense." Plenty of others -- Vulture, Siege Tank, Goliath, Wraith, Dropship, at the very least -- could very easily, very conceivably be represented by different personalities from the ones we see. In fact, it's very hard to imagine an entire corps -- Vultures -- being made up of rebels who talk back to their commanders. In a military, that's the exception, not the norm.

The goal here is to create memorable and unique characters, not just ones representative of statistical averages. We're seeing glimpses of what CERTAIN pilots of X or Y are like, not what the average one is like. Therefore, a female pilot for Marauder is as plausible as a female pilot anywhere else.

That's not to say that's enough reason to make it happen (Nicol has a better argument on that score) but someone mentioned earlier that the Marauder is the "least plausible" of Terran units for a female, and I don't see that.

Pandonetho
10-22-2009, 10:59 PM
Black people shouldn't be the majority of anything anywhere, yet the SCV pilot is black. People with Russians accents shouldn't be the majority of anything anywhere, yet the Battlecruiser captain speaks with one. Same for the Valkyrie pilot being female and German. I mean, seriously, that's TWO minorities. What are the chances that the most common Valkyrie type fighter pilot is both at the same time?

I don't think that's DS' point.

It's the fact that these units are highly specialized, or in the game, not easily massed.
Having a marauder army of females just as dominate as a marine army feels awkward... at least to me.

ArcherofAiur
10-22-2009, 11:01 PM
I don't actually agree with the idea that the unit's appearance and voice are supposed to represent the majority of that unit type.

Black people shouldn't be the majority of anything anywhere, yet the SCV pilot is black.
Do you mean the SC1 SCV is black? I dont think blizzard would make a game where all the workers are black.
http://starcraft.incgamers.com/w/images/a/ac/SCV_portrait.gif
http://www.evula.com/starcraft/terran/units/unit_faces/scv.jpg

newcomplex
10-22-2009, 11:04 PM
I don't actually agree with the idea that the unit's appearance and voice are supposed to represent the majority of that unit type.

Black people shouldn't be the majority of anything anywhere, yet the SCV pilot is black. People with Russians accents shouldn't be the majority of anything anywhere, yet the Battlecruiser captain speaks with one. Same for the Valkyrie pilot being female and German. I mean, seriously, that's TWO minorities. What are the chances that the most common Valkyrie type fighter pilot is both at the same time?

None of these are representative of any averages, and they don't "make sense." Plenty of others -- Vulture, Siege Tank, Goliath, Wraith, Dropship, at the very least -- could very easily, very conceivably be represented by different personalities from the ones we see. In fact, it's very hard to imagine an entire corps -- Vultures -- being made up of rebels who talk back to their commanders. In a military, that's the exception, not the norm.

The goal here is to create memorable and unique characters, not just ones representative of statistical averages. We're seeing glimpses of what CERTAIN pilots of X or Y are like, not what the average one is like. Therefore, a female pilot for Marauder is as plausible as a female pilot anywhere else.

That's not to say that's enough reason to make it happen (Nicol has a better argument on that score) but someone mentioned earlier that the Marauder is the "least plausible" of Terran units for a female, and I don't see that.

Not the average, the stereotype. Stereotype=/=Average. Most black people dont wear baggy pants, bling, smoke weed and talk funny. But we have that stereotype of black people. Similarily, even if most vulture pilots are somewhat normal, the kind of backwoods rebel punk style a vulture has could be a very plausible stereotype.

Somehow female marauders dont seem like a stereotype

also the valkyrie is an UED craft, brought from earth. Since the only other two UED people we know are dugalle and stukov, both with eastern european accents and names, it wouldnt be a surprise if that kind of accent really was the norm. Perhaps the UED originally was NATO or something.

DemolitionSquid
10-22-2009, 11:11 PM
I don't actually agree with the idea that the unit's appearance and voice are supposed to represent the majority of that unit type.

Black people shouldn't be the majority of anything anywhere, yet the SCV pilot is black. People with Russians accents shouldn't be the majority of anything anywhere, yet the Battlecruiser captain speaks with one. Same for the Valkyrie pilot being female and German. I mean, seriously, that's TWO minorities. What are the chances that the most common Valkyrie type fighter pilot is both at the same time?

None of these are representative of any averages, and they don't "make sense." Plenty of others -- Vulture, Siege Tank, Goliath, Wraith, Dropship, at the very least -- could very easily, very conceivably be represented by different personalities from the ones we see. In fact, it's very hard to imagine an entire corps -- Vultures -- being made up of rebels who talk back to their commanders. In a military, that's the exception, not the norm.

The goal here is to create memorable and unique characters, not just ones representative of statistical averages. We're seeing glimpses of what CERTAIN pilots of X or Y are like, not what the average one is like. Therefore, a female pilot for Marauder is as plausible as a female pilot anywhere else.

That's not to say that's enough reason to make it happen (Nicol has a better argument on that score) but someone mentioned earlier that the Marauder is the "least plausible" of Terran units for a female, and I don't see that.

Ask yourself why the units who were female in SC1 were female.

Adjutant - non combat
Medic - support
Dropship - support
Valkyrie - female unit name, not massed

So why do you want to throw masses of women into direct combat when its counter to all historical military logic, and for good reason?

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 11:13 PM
Not the average, the stereotype. Stereotype=/=Average.

So the stereotype of Battlecruiser commanders in the K-sector is that they have a Russian accent. And that Valkyries are piloted by crazy women. Gotcha.

You know, I can't even begin to imagine how these things could become stereotyped. I mean, I guess we have something to go off of for "the basic infantry unit" and "the tank driver" since these things exist... but once you get into stuff like Marauders, Reapers, Firebats, Ghosts, Goliaths, Vikings, Thors...

This stuff is so alien there's no way to know what sort of stereotypes we'd come up with. Basically, Blizzard makes up the stereotype and explains it away through some blurb of lore, or whatever. And if crazy German women flies (pardon the pun) for a random ship, there's absolutely no reason a crazy normal woman couldn't work for a random infantry unit.


Adjutant - non combat
Medic - support
Dropship - support
Valkyrie - female unit name, not massed

So why do you want to throw masses of women into direct combat when its counter to all historical military logic, and for good reason?

1. Blizzard didn't make Valkyries with the intent of them not being massed. Air in SC1 sucks. Anti-air units in SC1 are going to suck even harder, because you need air for them to be of worth. (Overlord sniping being the sole notable exception to this rule) To think that this has something to do with their massability is ridiculous. What does that say about non-massed Wraiths and their personalities, then?

2. I don't want to throw "masses of women" into direct combat. I disagree with the idea that the unit portrait necessarily represents an average, or stereotype, of the unit.

DemolitionSquid
10-22-2009, 11:16 PM
Fighter pilots are a unique bunch. They're cocky like the Wraith, and daredevils like the Valkyrie. You're trying to battle a sexism that simply isn't there.

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 11:17 PM
Addressed your point in a ninja edit.

I'm not battling sexism. There is no sexism. I'm battling the lack of sexy bad-ass chicks. And I don't need to be seeing her figure all the time to think she's sexy.

DemolitionSquid
10-22-2009, 11:19 PM
1. Blizzard didn't make Valkyries with the intent of them not being massed. Air in SC1 sucks. Anti-air units in SC1 are going to suck even harder, because you need air for them to be of worth. (Overlord sniping being the sole notable exception to this rule) To think that this has something to do with their massability is ridiculous. What does that say about non-massed Wraiths and their personalities, then?

Valkyries are AoE, have high HP, and pretty expensive. It means you're only supposed to need a few of them, just like their SC2 replacement, the Thor. The Wraith simply isn't massed because its generally not cost effective.


2. I don't want to throw "masses of women" into direct combat. I disagree with the idea that the unit portrait necessarily represents an average, or stereotype, of the unit.

Then you clearly haven't been paying attention to Blizzard's motto of iconic and recognizable units.


I'm not battling sexism. There is no sexism. I'm battling the lack of sexy bad-ass chicks. And I don't need to be seeing her figure all the time to think she's sexy.

While your desire for softcorn pr0n is commendable, it is misplaced. Let it go man.

Let it go.

newcomplex
10-22-2009, 11:26 PM
So the stereotype of Battlecruiser commanders in the K-sector is that they have a Russian accent. And that Valkyries are piloted by crazy women. Gotcha.

You know, I can't even begin to imagine how these things could become stereotyped. I mean, I guess we have something to go off of for "the basic infantry unit" and "the tank driver" since these things exist... but once you get into stuff like Marauders, Reapers, Firebats, Ghosts, Goliaths, Vikings, Thors...

This stuff is so alien there's no way to know what sort of stereotypes we'd come up with. Basically, Blizzard makes up the stereotype and explains it away through some blurb of lore, or whatever. And if crazy German women flies (pardon the pun) for a random ship, there's absolutely no reason a crazy normal woman couldn't work for a random infantry unit.

first of all the BC pilot doesnt have a russian accent. Sounds more of a german one, and the terran of k-sector are ethnically diverse.

Let me explains how this works. First of all, the majority for every single role is probably Caucasion white male, from american or maybe european descent. Now, if every single unit had the same portrait, it would be boring. So, you try to diversify racial/facial/speach among the units so that they both make sense thematically to what they're role in the army is, as well as having a diverse mix of genders and races.

Like look at the firebat. Their inspiration was probably that guy who says the famous quote nothing like the smell of napalm etc. This makes a lot of sense considering what the firebat does.






1. Blizzard didn't make Valkyries with the intent of them not being massed. Air in SC1 sucks. Anti-air units in SC1 are going to suck even harder, because you need air for them to be of worth. (Overlord sniping being the sole notable exception to this rule) To think that this has something to do with their massability is ridiculous. What does that say about non-massed Wraiths and their personalities, then?

2. I don't want to throw "masses of women" into direct combat. I disagree with the idea that the unit portrait necessarily represents an average, or stereotype, of the unit.

also the area where woman are most prominent in the armed service as combatants is as a pilot...so....it makes a lot of sense that we get female dropship pilots, banshee, and valk pilots.

Essentially lets say females make up 5% of the armed service. Your going to want to do three things.

a)Make sure that the unit woman are playing are not massed. So we dont get 90 female marines and 10 male medics.
b)Make sure woman are not underrepresented...you need at least a couple units with female portraits, its not like woman do not exist in the army.
c)make sure the woman thematically represents the unit.

pure.Wasted
10-22-2009, 11:46 PM
Valkyries are AoE, have high HP, and pretty expensive. It means you're only supposed to need a few of them, just like their SC2 replacement, the Thor. The Wraith simply isn't massed because its generally not cost effective.

So you'd be OK with a female pilot for the Thor, then?


Then you clearly haven't been paying attention to Blizzard's motto of iconic and recognizable units.

Erm... I'm not sure where you got that the unit shouldn't be "iconic and recognizable." If anything, making it subvert a stereotype would make it MORE iconic, more memorable, more recognizable.


While your desire for softcorn pr0n is commendable, it is misplaced. Let it go man.

Let it go.

Yeah, I want to get my rocks off by listening to a woman's voice. If I wanted prons, I would have asked for a female Ghost, not a female Marauder.

BTW I wouldn't mind both. :)


first of all the BC pilot doesnt have a russian accent. Sounds more of a german one, and the terran of k-sector are ethnically diverse.

I speak Russian and I know an attempted Russian accent when I hear one. The BC is very clearly it.

Terrans may be ethnically diverse, but they are not linguistically diverse. Read up the history of Earth. By the time the super-carriers launched, everybody spoke English exclusively. All other cultures were systematically beat down.

And here five hundred years later we have someone speaking with a flawless Russian accent? Five hundred years later? The only way to retain an accent for that many generations of family is to be surrounded mostly by people who speak with the same accent. So this hacker family of Russians somehow manages to hang on to their language when the Earth is unified, lives only by itself for five hundred years, and then this guy somehow climbs through the Confederate ranks all the way to Battlecruiser commander? Ummmm. Right.

Or MAYBE the voices are just supposed to be memorable, whether that means going with the flow or subverting it, on a case-by-case basis. Whichever sounds more reasonable to you.


Let me explains how this works. First of all, the majority for every single role is probably Caucasion white male, from american or maybe european descent. Now, if every single unit had the same portrait, it would be boring. So, you try to diversify racial/facial/speach among the units so that they both make sense thematically to what they're role in the army is, as well as having a diverse mix of genders and races.

Like look at the firebat. Their inspiration was probably that guy who says the famous quote nothing like the smell of napalm etc. This makes a lot of sense considering what the firebat does.

Valkyrie. Battlecruiser. Explain these two, and maybe you'll have a point. Meantime I'll wait.


also the area where woman are most prominent in the armed service as combatants is as a pilot...so....it makes a lot of sense that we get female dropship pilots, banshee, and valk pilots.

Because we don't have mobile armor suits? Maybe? I think that makes some sense. How tough Marauders, Vikings, and Thors are, they probably have a higher longevity rate than Wraiths do.


a)Make sure that the unit woman are playing are not massed. So we dont get 90 female marines and 10 male medics.

Don't see this as a requirement. Marines shouldn't be female. Other than that?


b)Make sure woman are not underrepresented...you need at least a couple units with female portraits, its not like woman do not exist in the army.

Yep!


c)make sure the woman thematically represents the unit.

See absolutely no reason for this, and plenty of reasons to the contrary. Portraits have to be distinctive and memorable. Subversion of expectations can accomplish that better than going along with them.

newcomplex
10-22-2009, 11:54 PM
Erm... I'm not sure where you got that the unit shouldn't be "iconic and recognizable." If anything, making it subvert a stereotype would make it MORE iconic, more memorable, more recognizable.

Each unit portrait should thematically reflect the unit. A woman marauder does not do that.




I speak Russian and I know an attempted Russian accent when I hear one. The BC is very clearly it.

Terrans may be ethnically diverse, but they are not linguistically diverse.
Read up the history of Earth. By the time the super-carriers launched, everybody spoke English exclusively. All other cultures were systematically beat down.

And here five hundred years later we have someone speaking with a flawless Russian accent? Five hundred years later? The only way to retain an accent for that many generations of family is to be surrounded mostly by people who speak with the same accent. So this hacker family of Russians somehow manages to hang on to their language when the Earth is unified, lives only by itself for five hundred years, and then this guy somehow climbs through the Confederate ranks all the way to Battlecruiser commander? Ummmm. Right.

Metzen speaks a "flawless russian accent"

wtf does that even mean? You dont speak flawless accents. And second of all, as I JUST EXPLAINED, the entire human race speaking english would just make that more logical. Accents dont just go away, America England and Australia have spoken english yet each have their own accents.

Or MAYBE the voices are just supposed to be memorable, whether that means going with the flow or subverting it, on a case-by-case basis. Whichever sounds more reasonable to you.




Valkyrie. Battlecruiser. Explain these two, and maybe you'll have a point. Meantime I'll wait.

Whats their to explain? Both those unit portraits thematically represent the unit, would be statistically not irrelevent (woman in airforce is at 10% today, it wouldnt be unlikely that it would be 20% or more after 500 years of sexual equality) (but no amount of sexual equality is going to make women as heavy assault troopers anything other then a statistical blip)


Please explain female marauders. Plz do.

a)They overinflated the representation of women in the army to a level on par with men. Your looking at an army in br4 that is 90%+ woman. ????
b)Does not make sense thematically that a heavy assault unit is represented by a woman.
c)Does not make logically that their would be anything other then a statistical non-factor of women who would be qualified for service as a marauder.

Nicol Bolas
10-22-2009, 11:54 PM
Essentially lets say females make up 5% of the armed service.

Right. Because what you really want to do while the Zerg are running around is have ~50% of your population not even be considered for the military.


a)Make sure that the unit woman are playing are not massed. So we dont get 90 female marines and 10 male medics.
b)Make sure woman are not underrepresented...you need at least a couple units with female portraits, its not like woman do not exist in the army.
c)make sure the woman thematically represents the unit.

There's nothing you can say for "c" that won't sound incredibly sexist. So that point fails by default.

And there's nothing you can do for "a" either. You can want a unit not to be massed all you want. But unless you put real constraints on it, and it's the most efficient way to fight, then it will be. Mass Banshees may be a viable tactic, even if you didn't mean for them to be (I certainly know I'm going to have a go at it).

newcomplex
10-22-2009, 11:58 PM
Right. Because what you really want to do while the Zerg are running around is have ~50% of your population not even be considered for the military.



There's nothing you can say for "c" that won't sound incredibly sexist. So that point fails by default.

And there's nothing you can do for "a" either. You can want a unit not to be massed all you want. But unless you put real constraints on it, and it's the most efficient way to fight, then it will be. Mass Banshees may be a viable tactic, even if you didn't mean for them to be (I certainly know I'm going to have a go at it).

Im being sexist when I say a lithe woman does not thematically represent a unit in mecha armor duel weilds rocket launchers?

I think you watch too much cartoons.

Or for that matter, that their should be like a huge force of stereotypically butch woman just running around with rocket launchers?

And no, as a human race, the last thing we do when a alien horde ravages our nation is to send our women to fight them...wtf?

I'm not saying their isnt a single woman marauder. But do you really think that its anything more then 0.5%? I mean, if you want a female unit, it should be on a unit where woman arent just a statistical blip.

pure.Wasted
10-23-2009, 12:06 AM
Each unit portrait should thematically reflect the unit. A woman marauder does not do that.

Just as long as you realize you're jumping between points. This is not what you said last time -- you said specifically that they should be "iconic and recognizable." A female Marauder would be much more iconic and recognizable than some tough guy.


Metzen speaks a "flawless russian accent"

wtf does that even mean? You dont speak flawless accents.

I don't know how familiar you are with accents, but you get a hundred Russian immigrants in a room speaking English, the phonetic mistakes they're going to make will be very, very similar. They are predictable. Imitating it correctly equates to a flawless impression.

As opposed to, you know, pronouncing it as a German-born speaker would, with the intent of sounding Russian.

Pretty straight-forward stuffs here. :)


And second of all, as I JUST EXPLAINED, the entire human race speaking english would just make that more logical. Accents dont just go away, America England and Australia have spoken english yet each have their own accents.

Congratulations! You've bypassed the FIRST of THREE major hurdles. You explained how they knew what a Russian accent sounded like... 500 years ago. And now you want to tell me how they maintained this accent for five hundred years while surrounded by those who speak English without an accent?

You know how first generation immigrants obviously have an accent? And how second generation ones don't? There's a reason. Well, this BC captain is on something like the fifteenth generation. Explaaaain away!


Whats their to explain? Both those unit portraits thematically represent the unit, would be statistically not irrelevent (woman in airforce is at 10% today, it wouldnt be unlikely that it would be 20% or more after 500 years of sexual equality)

Yes. A Battlecruiser captain speaking Russian perfectly captures the themes of the unit and the Terran race as a whole. Absolutely.


(but no amount of sexual equality is going to make women as heavy assault troopers anything other then a statistical blip)

You know what's funny? Before women became pilots in the airforce -- before they were that 10%, and still at 0% -- a guy like you would have said the exact same thing about women fighter pilots.

I'm not accusing you of sexism. I'm accusing you of saying things that have absolutely no basis in reality.


I'm not saying their isnt a single woman marauder. But do you really think that its anything more then 0.5%? I mean, if you want a female unit, it should be on a unit where woman arent just a statistical blip.

Women can't be a statistical blip for Marauders because Marauders don't exist. They're fictional. In a society different from ours, 500 years in the future. There is absolutely NO way to know what the statistics will be like. Stop pretending that you can predict societal trends for the next 500 years in a completely alien setting. I wouldn't even believe you if you had a Sociology degree, and I'm willing to bet that you aren't even that.

Pandonetho
10-23-2009, 12:08 AM
Regarding the linguistics problem suggested by pure.wasted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Earth mandated that English be the primary language of the planet. Did it say anywhere that speaking other languages was taboo and abolished? Even then, if it was, people would still in secrecy speak their own language. You can't honestly expect everyone just to give it up, just like you can't get everyone to give up religion. They'll learn or believe it in secrecy if they have to.

pure.Wasted
10-23-2009, 12:18 AM
Regarding the linguistics problem suggested by pure.wasted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Earth mandated that English be the primary language of the planet. Did it say anywhere that speaking other languages was taboo and abolished? Even then, if it was, people would still in secrecy speak their own language. You can't honestly expect everyone just to give it up, just like you can't get everyone to give up religion. They'll learn or believe it in secrecy if they have to.

For that to have any effect, quite a few of the 48,000 survivors would have to speak Russian for the language to even exist past the first generation. People tend to teach their children non-obsolete languages first and foremost, suggesting that their RUSSIAN would be accented, and not their English.

And then there's the whole issue of like 20 generations passing, nevermind that the Battlecruiser captain must have gone many years through the Confederate military hierarchy to achieve such a high ranking position.

Even if I grant the first point, it's still virtually impossible for the accent to survive.

Nicol Bolas
10-23-2009, 12:45 AM
Im being sexist when I say a lithe woman does not thematically represent a unit in mecha armor duel weilds rocket launchers?

I think you watch too much cartoons.

Yes, you're being sexist when you say that. What is "thematically" inappropriate about a woman in that suit? This "theme" is based solely on gender expectations.

And I don't know what cartoons really have to do with it.


And no, as a human race, the last thing we do when a alien horde ravages our nation is to send our women to fight them...wtf?

If that's what it takes to survive as a species. And people in Marauder armor are more likely to survive battle than people in Marine armor. Let alone people in Thors. So worries about repopulating the species make less sense then.


Even if I grant the first point, it's still virtually impossible for the accent to survive.

To clarify this point, it is possible that something like it would not survive. But languages change with time. Hell, in less than 2000 years, Latin branched out into 5 major separate languages. To be perfectly honest, the "English" they speak in Korprulu probably isn't the same English that people back on Earth speak. Accents should be the least of the problems.

The best you can do is say that the BC pilot is speaking in an accent that is "translated for our convenience." That he's not actually speaking in a Russian accent; he's speaking in an accent that is different from those around him, and Russian is something considered "thematically equivalent" to that.

Draco
10-23-2009, 12:46 AM
Your point? There are some rednecks I can't deny, but to claim the Terran race is just rednecks in space is retarded. I can do the same thing you just did, I'll point out EVERY SINGLE NON UNIT CHARACTER IN THE UNIVERSE THAT ISN'T A REDNECK. I'm sure I'll vastly outnumber the amount of people you'll find that are rednecks.

Rednecks and Russians.

Roobster
10-23-2009, 12:56 AM
To clarify this point, it is possible that something like it would not survive. But languages change with time. Hell, in less than 2000 years, Latin branched out into 5 major separate languages. To be perfectly honest, the "English" they speak in Korprulu probably isn't the same English that people back on Earth speak. Accents should be the least of the problems.

Actually it took less than 500 years for Latin to become not just 5 but more major languages, some which are extinct or marginalized today. This was due to villages becoming isolated from each other due to trade falling apart, so in the first couple of hundred years isolated towns developed their own versions of Latin, which are the origins of today's Romance languages. This strongly supports your idea, and they probably don't speak today's English even on Earth.

mr. peasant
10-23-2009, 02:38 AM
Or MAYBE the voices are just supposed to be memorable, whether that means going with the flow or subverting it, on a case-by-case basis. Whichever sounds more reasonable to you.

I agree this is definitely the case (otherwise, Russian Battlecruiser commodores, German Valkyrie pilots, etc wouldn't make statistical sense). In which case, two of your rebuttals (points (a) and (c)) against female Marauders would not apply. As for point (b), it can be countered by the fact that going against expectation means it's more memorable, which is the point of the unit portrait. Also, when you consider the fact that the Terrans already have an abundance of male 'tough guy' personalities (Marines, Siege Tanks and Thors), having yet another one does not help make it more memorable and makes the others less so.

Moreover, I would like to point out that making the Marauder black is not the best way to show 'racial equality'. Firstly, you rarely see the face. Secondly, I feel having the helmet randomly lift up just to show his race rather awkward, blatant quota-filling and somewhat random (without being funny a la the Immortal's goldfish). On the other hand, if the Marauder was female, the unit's voice would immediately point that out without having to lift the helmet, etc. Consequently, it would also be the unit with the least amount of work needed to increase the number of female units since Blizzard wouldn't need to create a new portrait.

newcomplex
10-25-2009, 07:18 PM
Yes, you're being sexist when you say that. What is "thematically" inappropriate about a woman in that suit? This "theme" is based solely on gender expectations.

And I don't know what cartoons really have to do with it.

Gender expectations=/=sexism. Sexism is when i would disallow a woman to join the marauder corps solely because she is a woman. Gender expecation is when i act incredibly surprised when a petit woman requests to sign up.



If that's what it takes to survive as a species. And people in Marauder armor are more likely to survive battle than people in Marine armor. Let alone people in Thors. So worries about repopulating the species make less sense then.


And I'm not asking the pilot of marines, or thors to be woman. Well the thor pilot thing might work.


To clarify this point, it is possible that something like it would not survive. But languages change with time. Hell, in less than 2000 years, Latin branched out into 5 major separate languages. To be perfectly honest, the "English" they speak in Korprulu probably isn't the same English that people back on Earth speak. Accents should be the least of the problems.


Not possible. Language diversifies due to lack of globalization. In the middle ages, isolation in life and schooling made it possible for languages to change dramatically over little periods of time. We have FTL communication as well as the push by the UED (the precursor actually forgot the name) to unify all world languages.


For that to have any effect, quite a few of the 48,000 survivors would have to speak Russian for the language to even exist past the first generation. People tend to teach their children non-obsolete languages first and foremost, suggesting that their RUSSIAN would be accented, and not their English.

And then there's the whole issue of like 20 generations passing, nevermind that the Battlecruiser captain must have gone many years through the Confederate military hierarchy to achieve such a high ranking position.

Even if I grant the first point, it's still virtually impossible for the accent to survive.

Accents die hard. And I would bet that the 48,000 survivors grouped themselves according ethnicity. People do that. IE: chinatown dutchtown irishtown, etcetc. Of course, the unifying language would still be english, so everyone would probably be still taught that. (the UED purge of other languages couldnt possible be anything then in ideology and public use only, unless they did some kind of george orwell 1974 setup with mind monitors (unlikely))



Just as long as you realize you're jumping between points. This is not what you said last time -- you said specifically that they should be "iconic and recognizable." A female Marauder would be much more iconic and recognizable than some tough guy.

You don't make unit portraits to be the exact opposite of the norm for recognizablility. Thats for heros.



Congratulations! You've bypassed the FIRST of THREE major hurdles. You explained how they knew what a Russian accent sounded like... 500 years ago. And now you want to tell me how they maintained this accent for five hundred years while surrounded by those who speak English without an accent?

You know how first generation immigrants obviously have an accent? And how second generation ones don't? There's a reason. Well, this BC captain is on something like the fifteenth generation. Explaaaain away!


Read the comics, which portrays the population of agria is a predominately hispanic/pacific islander race. Very very few white people. Subsistence farming. Obviously, people with similar racial backrounds would seek others with the same. Their language, in some variant (this time, unlike english, heavily changed of course). While the language would probably become a blend of other languages from the same region, the general accent would remain similar.


Yes. A Battlecruiser captain speaking Russian perfectly captures the themes of the unit and the Terran race as a whole. Absolutely.

The voice speaks with a lot of authority, and the accent is very well done without sounding force (go die in a fucking fire command and conquer&its accents). Authority is an expected value of a commander. The accent compliments this. I didn't say we wanted the majority, I say we wanted a thematic match. Females dont match marauders, unless you want to make her superfem butch or something lol. I'm not saying all females who drive marauders must be butch, im saying that unless you made the portrait butch, a lithe hot chick fails to represent the marauder thematically.

And out of personal taste, I dont want a large amount of my army butch and sounding like rosey odonnel kk?



You know what's funny? Before women became pilots in the airforce -- before they were that 10%, and still at 0% -- a guy like you would have said the exact same thing about women fighter pilots.

I'm not accusing you of sexism. I'm accusing you of saying things that have absolutely no basis in reality/

wtf? Nothing wrong with a woman with a gun in the marines. I think she must be really awesome if she wants to do that. But its stupid that if I were to make a game where every unit is represented by a single portrait, that I make the most heavy assault artillery one represented by a hot girl. Unless I was making some shitty japanse RPG.



Women can't be a statistical blip for Marauders because Marauders don't exist. They're fictional. In a society different from ours, 500 years in the future. There is absolutely NO way to know what the statistics will be like. Stop pretending that you can predict societal trends for the next 500 years in a completely alien setting. I wouldn't even believe you if you had a Sociology degree, and I'm willing to bet that you aren't even that.

I'm not predicting im using my own brain (which says that we won't be able to bypass gender roles completely until something technological or physical actually physically alters gender roles). Im predicting using hard, solid and easily accessible facts. Read any starcraft book. When the woman are presented as soldiers (rosemary from dark templars, that hot chick from warpigs), their presented as extremely distinguished, not mundane. (note jakes response when he is told about rosemary as a merc. He even says something like "I just couldnt imagine her in a firefight".

Rosemary, the totally hot, heartless, brutal and incredibly talented merc shouldnt be the unit portrait. I would make the mental picture of a Merc the merc portrait, and make rosemary into a hero.

newcomplex
10-25-2009, 07:32 PM
double post.

pure.Wasted
10-25-2009, 08:03 PM
Accents die hard.

I've already explained that they do not. Second generation immigrants, 9 times out of 10, will have no accent. The Terrans now are on their twentieth generation.

It isn't possible to retain an accent this long. It just isn't. 1. What are the chances that all the Russian speakers got into the same ship, as opposed to being spread out over the 4? 2. What are the chances they're all going to meet up and find each other after the crash? 3. What are the chances there's enough of them that still know Russian, and still want to speak it, that they CAN retain it even IF they wanted to? 4. What are the chances that they're going to decide to keep these languages around, when the community for speaking it is maybe 1/10000th the size of the community speaking English? 5. What are the chances that the kids will even LISTEN to their parents' attempts to teach them, when they have absolutely no reason to learn this language that nobody else speaks?

People don't follow some mythical sort of familial calling. I learned a secret language from my father and he from his father before him. People don't do that. Kids don't give a shit. If there's no reason to learn a language -- that is, everyone around them is speaking English -- it's going to be VERY difficult to convince them to keep going.

For the accent to be retained it has to have passed every single probability check above, and the chain not be broken for a SINGLE generation out of the 20. The odds of any of this being possible are SO astronomically low that they are beyong unrealistic. It would take an act of God for this to happen.


You don't make unit portraits to be the exact opposite of the norm for recognizablility. Thats for heros.

Heroes aren't there to subvert expectations. They're there to be characters in a story. If that means going with the flow, like Raynor the rebel Vulture or Duran the sneaky Ghost, so be it. If it means subverting it like Kerrigan the needy, uncertain Ghost, so be it.

Likewise, unit portraits aren't there to go along with expectations. They're there to be memorable and interesting. If that means going along with expectations, like the gung-ho Marine, so be it. If that means giving us a military unit who perpetually swears at his commander, like the Vulture, so be it. It isn't expected, because there's no way it would fly in a real military, but it creates a memorable profile.

So would this.


Read the comics, which portrays the population of agria is a predominately hispanic/pacific islander race. Very very few white people. Subsistence farming. Obviously, people with similar racial backrounds would seek others with the same. Their language, in some variant (this time, unlike english, heavily changed of course). While the language would probably become a blend of other languages from the same region, the general accent would remain similar.

This is kind of interesting. It's obviously new, and I don't get the comics so I'm unfamiliar with it... but, again, the thing is we're going to see Agria in SC2 -- we already have -- and there's absolutely no hints to it being ethnically homogeneous. Dr. Ariel Hanson isn't Hispanic, the civilians we meet along the way don't seem to be Hispanic... so... I don't know just how much of this is really canon, and how much comes from Blizzard or just the author who wanted to tell that one story.


The voice speaks with a lot of authority, and the accent is very well done without sounding force (go die in a fucking fire command and conquer&its accents). Authority is an expected value of a commander. The accent compliments this. I didn't say we wanted the majority, I say we wanted a thematic match. Females dont match marauders, unless you want to make her superfem butch or something lol. I'm not saying all females who drive marauders must be butch, im saying that unless you made the portrait butch, a lithe hot chick fails to represent the marauder thematically.

And out of personal taste, I dont want a large amount of my army butch and sounding like rosey odonnel kk?

Believe me, Rosey O'Donnel is the last thing I want. But what are the themes we associate with the Marauder? No lore exists for the unit, so it's completely up for grabs. Say they're super aggressive. Well, Starbuck is as aggressive a character as you'll ever find, male or female, and she's still hot. Obviously it's possible for a female to be both.


I'm not predicting im using my own brain (which says that we won't be able to bypass gender roles completely until something technological or physical actually physically alters gender roles) Read any starcraft book. When the woman are presented as soldiers (rosemary from dark templars, that hot chick from warpigs), their presented as extremely distinguished, not mundane. (note jakes response when he is told about rosemary as a merc. He even says something like "I just couldnt imagine her in a firefight"

Just because the best Christie Golden can give us is a bunch of Mary Sues, female or otherwise, is no reason to suspect the entire world functions this way. In fact, Liberty's Crusade has at least one very notable very mundane female Marine. Absolutely nothing special about her, and Danny Liberty doesn't find her interesting, either.

newcomplex
10-25-2009, 08:34 PM
I've already explained that they do not. Second generation immigrants, 9 times out of 10, will have no accent. The Terrans now are on their twentieth generation.

It isn't possible to retain an accent this long. It just isn't. 1. What are the chances that all the Russian speakers got into the same ship, as opposed to being spread out over the 4? 2. What are the chances they're all going to meet up and find each other after the crash? 3. What are the chances there's enough of them that still know Russian, and still want to speak it, that they CAN retain it even IF they wanted to? 4. What are the chances that they're going to decide to keep these languages around, when the community for speaking it is maybe 1/10000th the size of the community speaking English? 5. What are the chances that the kids will even LISTEN to their parents' attempts to teach them, when they have absolutely no reason to learn this language that nobody else speaks?

42,000 political prisoners as well as just...normal violent prisoners. Are you telling me that people don't self segregate? That everyone justs works toghether and makes equal and ethnically balanced society? Human nature proves otherwise. Even in prisons people group up in ethnicity.

Accents die when you grow up completely immersed in a culture. What I'm saying is that when you take political prisoners from all around the world, russians hang with other russians. People just work that way. And 42,000 people from all around the world is enough for different ethnic groups to form their own cultures within the whole. Their could have easily been 4000 if not more russians. Even 1000 Russians per-ship would have been enough. I would bet that even on the ships, these ethnic self segregation would have begun.



People don't follow some mythical sort of familial calling. I learned a secret language from my father and he from his father before him. People don't do that. Kids don't give a shit. If there's no reason to learn a language -- that is, everyone around them is speaking English -- it's going to be VERY difficult to convince them to keep going.

For the accent to be retained it has to have passed every single probability check above, and the chain not be broken for a SINGLE generation out of the 20. The odds of any of this being possible are SO astronomically low that they are beyong unrealistic. It would take an act of God for this to happen.


...thats not what I'm saying.

Look at the colony of agria, as I explained. This isn't about following some family heritage. Nearly everyone their is hispanic/pacific islander. So, logically, they would have a pacific/hispanic islander accent, if not their own language.

Not to sound racist, but uneducated poor black people talk very differently then uneducated poor white people. Even after 300 years, theirs still this kind of "accent". I don't see why this couldnt exist in koprulu.



Heroes aren't there to subvert expectations. They're there to be characters in a story. If that means going with the flow, like Raynor the rebel Vulture or Duran the sneaky Ghost, so be it. If it means subverting it like Kerrigan the needy, uncertain Ghost, so be it.

Likewise, unit portraits aren't there to go along with expectations. They're there to be memorable and interesting. If that means going along with expectations, like the gung-ho Marine, so be it. If that means giving us a military unit who perpetually swears at his commander, like the Vulture, so be it. It isn't expected, because there's no way it would fly in a real military, but it creates a memorable profile.

So would this.


Good hero design is meant to be memorable, and distinguished. A good hero isnt suppose to look and behave exactly like a marine. Raynor is smart and sincere, unlike marines or vulture pilots. Kerrigan has memories and loyalty instead of psi-inhibitors.

And even if in your world, unit portraits are meant to create distinguished characters (which is...not true), they would fail miserably at it. When any starcraft player thinks of an "average marine", they think of the portrait. In fact, in lore, most marines do kind of act like that. When they think of vulture pilot, they think of his portrait. They assume most vulture pilots are like him. Basic unit portraits as distinguished characters, if it is true, would probably be the most poorly implemented and failed thing blizzard tried to do, along with wow voicechat and "the blademaster" Because anyone could see it obviously has the opposite effect.



This is kind of interesting. It's obviously new, and I don't get the comics so I'm unfamiliar with it... but, again, the thing is we're going to see Agria in SC2 -- we already have -- and there's absolutely no hints to it being ethnically homogeneous. Dr. Ariel Hanson isn't Hispanic, the civilians we meet along the way don't seem to be Hispanic... so... I don't know just how much of this is really canon, and how much comes from Blizzard or just the author who wanted to tell that one story.

So just because theirs only one marine portait means every single marine looks the same? Of course not lol. Dr. Ariel probably comes from offworld. I mean, where do you get the kind of knowledge to operate a bio-chem lab able to splice alien dna? Not from a backwater colony.



Believe me, Rosey O'Donnel is the last thing I want. But what are the themes we associate with the Marauder? No lore exists for the unit, so it's completely up for grabs. Say they're super aggressive. Well, Starbuck is as aggressive a character as you'll ever find, male or female, and she's still hot. Obviously it's possible for a female to be both.

But see, I find it thematically weird to see half my army, if not more comprised of hot, strong, and otherwise awesome chicks. It reminds me of wow where every other warrior, guard, pirate w/e is a female. Which is completely unreasonable.




Just because the best Christie Golden can give us is a bunch of Mary Sues, female or otherwise, is no reason to suspect the entire world functions this way. In fact, Liberty's Crusade has at least one very notable very mundane female Marine. Absolutely nothing special about her, and Danny Liberty doesn't find her interesting, either.


Completely off topic but it kind of bugs me how many people like to call every bad character design a mary sue. Mary Sue is a super likeable character...that is NOT the main/main supporting character. Hence, making a irrelevent character super-likeable detracts from the plot.

Rosemary is like the main supporting character of the story. And isnt that likeable anyway lol.




Really to sum it up, SC portraits are designed to be thematically consistent with the unit. Their can't be argument here, because even if blizzard intents your idea, to present a exception, or the most different kind of guy who has that job, it is irrelevant because most people view it as the norm anyway. So regardless of intent (which is arguable), the result is that most people see it as the norm.

Now, their are three kinds of female body builds. Lithe and traditional lyfeminine (with varying amounts of muscle, from none to a lot...even muscular women would fall here), and A more butch body build..and fat. Its established nobody wants O'donnel or a fat chick as a marauder, so I see a thematic discrepancy between lithe body build and shock trooper advanced armor and duel weild grenade launchers. Nothing to do with sexism, if they made a "lithe" guy, like the ghost or the scv pilot in it, I would be like wtf too.

(edit: I gotta get some work done before work tom so dont expect a response :P)

deadlock
10-25-2009, 10:29 PM
Gender expectations=/=sexism. Sexism is when i would disallow a woman to join the marauder corps solely because she is a woman. Gender expecation is when i act incredibly surprised when a petit woman requests to sign up.


ACTUALLY gender expectations are the CORE of sexism, since these same expectations are also internalised by little girls, limiting irreversibly what they believe they are capable of.
"One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman."--Simone de Beauvoir

Novasquadron
10-25-2009, 10:57 PM
I voted yes.
Wondering why the topic changed.
I wouldnt mind a women unit at all.

Marauder?
That is a possibility.

I wonder if they Medivac dropship shows a female portrait?
Also another female unit you might have missed was the dropship. :D

Pandonetho
10-26-2009, 12:02 AM
I agree with the idea that people of different ethnicity will segregate.

Say the UPL banned all other languages and mandated English be the language of the world... well that would mean every Russian in Russia would start teaching English with a Russian accent would it not?

Triceron
10-26-2009, 01:47 AM
Well put it this way

English is taught at schools in India, while their native tongue, be it punjabi, hindi etc is taught from home. With the notion that English is the main language taught formally, why then do most East Indians have an accent?

I don't think it's purely a generation thing. It's a part of the culture and society you grow up in. English is the main language of the United States, but you can see how different someone in Texas would sound compared to someone in New York, and then again in California.

Starcraft never set out to show humanity as a culturally unified race. With so many colonies spread out amongst worlds, it's not hard to imagine different dialects from each. We only hear Russian, German, French etc because that's what is typical for an accent. The universe wasn't created for us to hear a Tarsonis accent or a Korhallian accent. Starcraft is still very 'comic' in its execution. It prides itself on modern and sci fi stereotypes, where much of its charm comes from. I don't think a unified language system would be very befitting for this universe. It just wouldn't be as interesting.

mr. peasant
10-26-2009, 01:18 PM
And even if in your world, unit portraits are meant to create distinguished characters (which is...not true), they would fail miserably at it. When any starcraft player thinks of an "average marine", they think of the portrait. In fact, in lore, most marines do kind of act like that. When they think of vulture pilot, they think of his portrait. They assume most vulture pilots are like him. Basic unit portraits as distinguished characters, if it is true, would probably be the most poorly implemented and failed thing blizzard tried to do, along with wow voicechat and "the blademaster" Because anyone could see it obviously has the opposite effect.


Really to sum it up, SC portraits are designed to be thematically consistent with the unit. Their can't be argument here, because even if blizzard intents your idea, to present a exception, or the most different kind of guy who has that job, it is irrelevant because most people view it as the norm anyway. So regardless of intent (which is arguable), the result is that most people see it as the norm.

Actually, unit portraits serve to create a unique personality to differentiate one unit type from another. This helps make them memorable, colorful and 'fun'. Hence, why the Siege Tank is a crazy sergeant, the Battlecruiser a Russian admiral and the Vulture a biker who happens to look somewhat Amish. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are 'the norm' of individuals in that division. Otherwise, most Terran unit portraits would have the same personalities. I mean, how does the Valkyrie being a female German make it stereotypical? The valkyrie myth is Norse! It's to separate her from the other unit types.

As it currently stands, lots of Terran units (namely the Marine, Reaper, Siege Tank and Thor) are known to already have the personality of the 'macho male'. Making the Marauder that as well doesn't help distinguish it from other units. Giving them all similar personality traits makes them boring. At least by making the Marauder a 'tough girl', it puts a spin on it to differentiate it from the Marine, Reaper, Siege Tank and Thor.

newcomplex
10-26-2009, 01:38 PM
Actually, unit portraits serve to create a unique personality to differentiate one unit type from another. This helps make them memorable, colorful and 'fun'. Hence, why the Siege Tank is a crazy sergeant, the Battlecruiser a Russian admiral and the Vulture a biker who happens to look somewhat Amish. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are 'the norm' of individuals in that division. Otherwise, most Terran unit portraits would have the same personalities. I mean, how does the Valkyrie being a female German make it stereotypical? The valkyrie myth is Norse! It's to separate her from the other unit types.

As it currently stands, lots of Terran units (namely the Marine, Reaper, Siege Tank and Thor) are known to already have the personality of the 'macho male'. Making the Marauder that as well doesn't help distinguish it from other units. Giving them all similar personality traits makes them boring. At least by making the Marauder a 'tough girl', it puts a spin on it to differentiate it from the Marine, Reaper, Siege Tank and Thor.
Your right about the role of the portraits. Their not to be unique or mundane, but to create a distinctive stereotype for the unit.

-however-

We don't currently KNOW the voice set of the marauder however. Both the seige tank and the marine have very similar personalities, but you can't tell me you get them confused, or something their not uniquely distinctive.
It could very well be that the marauder remains unique.

Second of all, distinction is good, but blizzard makes distinct units that are also thematically correct. This is true for most starcraft terran units, case and point being the firebat. The firebat shows that blizzard puts more emphasis on thematic correction then distinction. The firebat portrait looks and talks very similar to the marine one, blizzard could have easily made a totally random and unique portrait, but they felt like a marine like unit spewing random lines from old 'nam flicks would be better, because it would fit the theme of a firebat better, if not nessicarily make it super-distinct.

I don't think theirs any real problem with the marauder being too similar to other untis. In starcraft, the marine, firebat, ghost and battlecruiser were all voiced by the same person, who isnt even a voice actor (lore writer metzen). Now that blizzard has the money to hire proffesionals, I don't think they'll run into the issue of too similar unit portraits.

btw...the marauder is black. The marine seige tank pilot are white, and the reaper is (presumably) white as well. Since they're no other black people in unit portraits, if nothing else, that creates distinction.

mr. peasant
10-26-2009, 01:53 PM
btw...the marauder is black. The marine seige tank pilot are white, and the reaper is (presumably) white as well. Since they're no other black people in unit portraits, if nothing else, that creates distinction.

True. I'm not saying the only create a distinction between the Marauder and other units but rather it is defnitely a way. The reason this came up was because some people wanted more female units for the Terrans. The Marauder makes a good candidate since it requires the least amount of work for a successful sex change. Rather than having to build a whole new portrait from scratch, they could already use the existing one (minus the helmet lifting off, of course). At most, they would only need to swap the black guy's head for a female along with some minor tweaks if at all.

And as final enticements, here are some ideas on what they could have as 'pissed' quotes:

"What do you mean I take up two seats?!"
"Does this power armor make me look fat?"
"Well, I guess it beats bikini chainmail."

Triceron
10-26-2009, 02:08 PM
There are pros and cons to this though.

As unique and distinct as this could be, this is also going to be representative of all marauders. The image that comes up will be that every Marauder is female, not just a handful or the main representative. This would work if it's one unique character unit, but to represent every marauder unit in the game as a female goes against its stereotype as a big, bulky, rocket-firing unit. I think it's a juxtaposition to have a female voice out of it, even if it's a butch chick voice.

Even with the Valkyrie, the name itself hints at a female unit. Marauder doesn't hint anything at all.

mr. peasant
10-26-2009, 03:05 PM
There are pros and cons to this though.

As unique and distinct as this could be, this is also going to be representative of all marauders. The image that comes up will be that every Marauder is female, not just a handful or the main representative. This would work if it's one unique character unit, but to represent every marauder unit in the game as a female goes against its stereotype as a big, bulky, rocket-firing unit. I think it's a juxtaposition to have a female voice out of it, even if it's a butch chick voice.

Even with the Valkyrie, the name itself hints at a female unit. Marauder doesn't hint anything at all.

So, does this mean that everything is male by default? Also, things like Dropships did not specifically suggest femininity either.

newcomplex
10-26-2009, 03:10 PM
So, does this mean that everything is male by default? Also, things like Dropships did not specifically suggest femininity either.

But as I said previously, when we think of woman in the armed services, most people immediately think of a non-combatant or pilot role.

Aldrius
10-26-2009, 03:23 PM
But as I said previously, when we think of woman in the armed services, most people immediately think of a non-combatant or pilot role.

And since when should common unconscious belief decide how things are designed? I'm not really for female-marauders (actually I'd probably prefer the old 'randomly female or male' thing, but eh.) but I don't see why they COULDN'T be.

And when you say 'women in the military', my first thought is an army brat turned soldier. Like Ashley in Mass Effect. And I despise Ashley in Mass Effect!

Triceron
10-26-2009, 06:57 PM
The point is not what should be popular belief, but what the popular belief already is.

We're talking in terms of archetypes, not characters that break the mold. It's all about familiarity. Ashley works because you actually SEE her as a feminine character. She's not suited up in a bulky, behemoth that fires rockets. The fact you can't see anything visually indicating it is female, including the portrait, is going to be very confusing to the player. Unless more about this unit is changed, it's going to be hard to convince people with voicework alone.

When it comes to female unit types, typically they will be seen in passive aggressive or support roles. The Marauder could be considered a support unit, but everything else about it is very masculine.

Keltik
10-27-2009, 04:03 PM
Hmm, well my preference would be to put a female unit in a support role of some sort. I lean to the protecting the women and children side of things. (I have no doubt that women are tough, as I have seen my wife endure pain that would make me cry like a baby. :-) )

However, I completely agree that it would be nice if a female character wasn't barbie in unrealistic armor/outfits. I am a red blooded male and have an appreciation for feminine beauty, but I also have two daughters and don't want them always being bombarded with images of barely clothed women with unrealistic bodies. I know my video game playing wife would appreciate that as well.

Quirel
10-27-2009, 06:19 PM
Completely off topic but it kind of bugs me how many people like to call every bad character design a mary sue. Mary Sue is a super likeable character...that is NOT the main/main supporting character. Hence, making a irrelevent character super-likeable detracts from the plot.

Rosemary is like the main supporting character of the story. And isnt that likeable anyway lol.)
Gotta call you out on this:
A Mary Sue (Or Gary Stu) is a character that is SUPPOSED to be super likeable, but ends up dragging the story down. They can do, will do everything, look perfect, have the main characters fantasizing about her/him, or have everyone admiring them. There are no character flaws in a Mary Sue, or not enough to make the reader actually like them.

So, in short, a Mary Sue IS a sort of bad character design, and Rosemary Sue Dahl fits right in.

Pandonetho
10-27-2009, 07:11 PM
That tropes site says this.


"The closest thing to a widely agreed-on definition is a character who has too many positive characteristics, and too few genuine flaws to be believable or interesting"

mr. peasant
10-27-2009, 08:01 PM
That tropes site says this.

However, the Sues are an extended family (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySueTropes). ;)

Triceron
10-28-2009, 02:55 PM
Is Dahl a Mary Sue?

She has quite a number of flaws...

Perfecttear
10-28-2009, 03:01 PM
LOL , this thread is still alive after all the months that have pased since i created it :p
It was not meant to be fully serious, i was only pissed at some comment and some peoples stupidity in the female ghost thread, so i made this thread, so i could argue with all the ******

StrongCoffee
10-28-2009, 03:11 PM
Well, keeping the original line of discussion, the idea isnt very pleaseant to me, but I cant see a real and serius reason why the marauder couldnt be a female wearing a 400lb warsuit. I mean, Blizzard showed in the BR#3 the portrait of a male Banshee pilot and now whe know the portrait shows a female pilot. But thinking in a artistic way, i think a grave, "I-smoke-since-I-was-born" voice and a 3 day beard suits more the marauder. In my not so humble opinion

pure.Wasted
10-28-2009, 03:16 PM
Is Dahl a Mary Sue?

She has quite a number of flaws...

What flaws would you say she has?

Pandonetho
10-28-2009, 04:42 PM
Well if you consider these flaws...

She's apparently smoking hot.
She knows how to fix alien technology.
She's a jack of all trades, and might as well be a master of them all as well.
etc.

Quirel
10-28-2009, 05:08 PM
He can handle weapons that weigh as much as her.
She's intimately associated (If not sexually) with both secondary antagonists (if you count Ulreszaj as the primary antagonist).
Her apparent flaw (chemical addiction) did NOTHING to derail the others.

Crazy_Jonny
10-28-2009, 10:20 PM
LOL , this thread is still alive after all the months that have pased since i created it :p
It was not meant to be fully serious, i was only pissed at some comment and some peoples stupidity in the female ghost thread, so i made this thread, so i could argue with all the ******

Yeah, thats why you chose the marauder, the most manly unit in the game right now. Bet you didn't see the response you got coming, did ya?

Novasquadron
10-28-2009, 11:59 PM
LOL , this thread is still alive after all the months that have pased since i created it :p
It was not meant to be fully serious, i was only pissed at some comment and some peoples stupidity in the female ghost thread, so i made this thread, so i could argue with all the ******

Really?
Really?
I dont remeber commenting on the earlier thread about the Female ghost.
As i said with this one i have no problems with any female units.

I surely hope this wasnt the real reason for this thread.:confused:

newcomplex
10-29-2009, 12:19 AM
I was under the impression that nihilism and moral relativity was a flaw.

I'm not saying that I like her design, but really, I don't think she fits in as a Mary Sue. That being said we should stop obsessing over character archetypes. Remember, art is dead or something.

deadlock
10-29-2009, 05:16 AM
fiction is replete with such characters, Jules from pulp fiction is an example

Eligor
10-29-2009, 09:20 AM
I've already explained that they do not. Second generation immigrants, 9 times out of 10, will have no accent. The Terrans now are on their twentieth generation.

It isn't possible to retain an accent this long. It just isn't. 1. What are the chances that all the Russian speakers got into the same ship, as opposed to being spread out over the 4? 2. What are the chances they're all going to meet up and find each other after the crash? 3. What are the chances there's enough of them that still know Russian, and still want to speak it, that they CAN retain it even IF they wanted to? 4. What are the chances that they're going to decide to keep these languages around, when the community for speaking it is maybe 1/10000th the size of the community speaking English? 5. What are the chances that the kids will even LISTEN to their parents' attempts to teach them, when they have absolutely no reason to learn this language that nobody else speaks?

People don't follow some mythical sort of familial calling. I learned a secret language from my father and he from his father before him. People don't do that. Kids don't give a shit. If there's no reason to learn a language -- that is, everyone around them is speaking English -- it's going to be VERY difficult to convince them to keep going.

For the accent to be retained it has to have passed every single probability check above, and the chain not be broken for a SINGLE generation out of the 20. The odds of any of this being possible are SO astronomically low that they are beyong unrealistic. It would take an act of God for this to happen.



The exact passage in the manual goes: "English was designated as the common tongue of the planet, replacing many ancient languages that were subsequently banned in their native countries." In no place does it state that all languages but English became extinct and even in the case of extremely prejudiced suppression it's easy to imagine such widespread languages as German and Russian surviving as minority languages, and besides, entirely banning such common and ubiquitous languages (around 168 million Russian and 100 million German speakers today, and that's accounting only for native speakers) would be a nigh impossible endeavour (unless by perpetration of genocide, but that would've been too much of a bloodbath even for such a regime as dictatorial as the UPL (considering they already had their witch hunt against psychics and mutants going on, effectively channeling everyone's hatred and enmity in that direction), wiping out at least a third of the Earth's population, besides, the banning of major languages would've most certainly led to revolt of massive proportions that the UPL wouldn't withstand). What I imagine happening is a widespread extinction of minority languages with the survival of only the most common ones dominated by English as a global language mandatorily studied everywhere* (much like in India under the British rule), which by the way would make for quite a fertile breeding ground for accents. Now, Tosh's Caribbean accent does beg some explanation (though THAT is something easily imagined as passing from father to son, since it's linked to a very specific culture that may well have survived in secrecy, its people keeping their mode of speech as another gesture of defiance against the UPL), but all major Eurasian tongues are perfectly plausible.

*Not that different from today in fact, but much less culturally diverse and with English studies being enforced everywhere regardless of the native language (brutally so in case of resistance).

GeneStarwind
12-02-2010, 11:30 AM
I don't see why not.

Why not? It'd be nice to see virtually every unit have variations after each production, like some randomizing element that is purely cosmetic and doesn't hurt the gameplay.

Age of Empires II had this element for their villagers. Albeit women practically only appeared as Villagers in that game on multiplayer.

I'd like to see Black female Banshees, white male Scottish dropships(although they already exist in one way), Indian male SCVs, Black female Marauders, etc.

Prison don't discriminate.

And why stop there? Why not male and female Protoss units? Selendis is a pretty good Carrier.

Female Dark Templar? Female Furinax Zealot? Male Sargas Phoenix?

Help me if I'm wrong, are the Protoss tribes different in appearance?

I don't think it's a bad thing to add, assuming that it doesn't affect game mechanics.

Besides, if the story involves the potential destruction/assimilation of all three races, shouldn't there be a combined effort, universally, to overcome this threat? Kerrigan can't do it by herself.



[I necroed this thread because I don't like making duplicate threads with similar if not identical premises.

DemolitionSquid
12-02-2010, 12:21 PM
Necroing is bad mmkay.

Arkalis
12-02-2010, 12:22 PM
Anyone thought about female Ghosts? Why not? Lore-wise there are female ghosts.

sandwich_bird
12-02-2010, 01:16 PM
[I necroed this thread because I don't like making duplicate threads with similar if not identical premises.

When the thread has been dead for a year, it's better to make a new one...

closed.