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ArcherofAiur
06-12-2009, 07:39 PM
So I am currently focusing on ways to improve the MULE. As a recap I think it should be a permanent unit with advanced mining yet different from the SCV. One concern is that there is really nothing Multi Use about this Multi Use Labor Element.

So today I am theorycrafting and it occurs to me that the ability to drop anywhere on the map has incredible potential that just isn’t being utilized by a unit that can only mine. It needs something that takes advantage of position (one of the most important factors in SC). So what’s a good ability that takes advantage of positional freedom. Mines.

Vulture mines contributed heavily to the Terran playstyle in SC1. They encouraged very dynamic play where Terran raced to set up a siege line which the opponent would try to break it before completion. Some of the most exciting players were when a Zealot destroyed a whole tank line bringing home a vulture mine.

Giving MULE’s mines allows you to call down a MULE anywhere your forces are and begin constructing a mine field. But this ability is not without its downside. If your mule is setting mines some where then it cant be mining and your opponent will have the economic edge.

Concern could be raise over the ease in which a Terran could drop a MULE in your base and begin dropping mines. To address this I believe spider mines should cost 25 minerals.


MULE
Permanent unit 100 HP
Cost: 100 mineral, 50 energy

Advanced Harvesting: Allows 3X mineral gathering. Can gather even if mineral patch is saturated.

Spider Mine: Plants a Spider Mine for 25 minerals.

Third Ability: A third ability. (Any thoughts?)

Kimera757
06-12-2009, 07:51 PM
So I am currently focusing on ways to improve the MULE. As a recap I think it should be a permanent unit with advanced mining yet different from the SCV.

That would be bad for the "must return to base macro" crowd. Even if it adds a lot to macro, if people don't go back to the base to use it, some of the old guard will be really upset.

Now maybe their opinions don't matter. They don't matter to me much, but they seem to matter to Blizzard.


One concern is that there is really nothing Multi Use about this Multi Use Labor Element.

We don't even know if that's what MULE stands for. There may be another MULE acronym that works out to Multi Use Labor Element, but that may have nothing to do with StarCraft.

ArcherofAiur
06-12-2009, 07:55 PM
That would be bad for the "must return to base macro" crowd. Even if it adds a lot to macro, if people don't go back to the base to use it, some of the old guard will be really upset.

Now maybe their opinions don't matter. They don't matter to me much, but they seem to matter to Blizzard.


Starcraft 1 macro consisted of going back to the base to generate a permanent worker. I doubt the "macro" crowd (of which I am definatly one) would have much of a problem with this.




We don't even know if that's what MULE stands for. There may be another MULE acronym that works out to Multi Use Labor Element, but that may have nothing to do with StarCraft.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.L.E.

mr. peasant
06-12-2009, 07:57 PM
Starcraft 1 macro consisted of going back to the base to generate a permanent worker. I doubt the "macro" crowd (of which I am definatly one) would have much of a problem with this.

I think it matters since unlike SC1, SC2 doesn't require the player to go back to the base but simply hotkey the buildings and click build. Automine does the rest.

No, I think a far better would be an ability that turns the MULE Miner into a MULE Mine that removes the countdown timer (i.e. it becomes a permanent unit). This way, players decide how closely they dare allow the MULE to continue mining before turning it into a mine, forgo mining and going straight into a mine or to not bother with the mines.

This would synergize well with the Planetary Fortress as a whole (or whichever expansion it's supporting) by providing rudimentary defenses as well as additional miners.

ArcherofAiur
06-12-2009, 08:02 PM
I think it matters since unlike SC1, SC2 doesn't require the player to go back to the base but simply hotkey the buildings and click build. Automine does the rest.

I think you misunderstand me. You would still call down the MULE so you would need to go back to your base to summon it there (if you wanted it to mine which most of the time you would).



No, I think a far better would be an ability that turns the MULE Miner into a MULE Mine that removes the countdown timer (i.e. it becomes a permanent unit). This way, players decide how closely they dare allow the MULE to continue mining before turning it into a mine, forgo mining and going straight into a mine or to not bother with the mines.

This would synergize well with the Planetary Fortress as a whole (or whichever expansion it's supporting) by providing rudimentary defenses as well as additional miners.


Hmmm interesting proposal.

Kimera757
06-12-2009, 08:26 PM
Starcraft 1 macro consisted of going back to the base to generate a permanent worker. I doubt the "macro" crowd (of which I am definatly one) would have much of a problem with this.

How does this make the player go back to the base, though? As long as you can hotkey whatever is making the MULE, you don't need to do that. (You can drop the MULE directly into battle if you so wish, even this version.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.U.L.E.


Like I said, there may be more than one MULE acronym. (That MULE doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as the MULE in StarCraft II.)

ArcherofAiur
06-12-2009, 08:44 PM
How does this make the player go back to the base, though? As long as you can hotkey whatever is making the MULE, you don't need to do that. (You can drop the MULE directly into battle if you so wish, even this version.)

You need to click near the mineral line to call-down your MULE there.



Like I said, there may be more than one MULE acronym. (That MULE doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as the MULE in StarCraft II.)

Blizzard loves to make these kinda cultural references. I think they even said this was it.

DemolitionSquid
06-12-2009, 09:07 PM
The only acceptable status for the MULE is non-existent. The entire mechanic disgusts me to my core.

mr. peasant
06-12-2009, 09:10 PM
Everything seems to be disgusting you to the core these days, DS. Why not just at the cortex? :p

DemolitionSquid
06-12-2009, 09:14 PM
Everything seems to be disgusting you to the core these days, DS. Why not just at the cortex? :p

Because that would implode the space-time continuum. And we can't do that again... not after the mess Terminator: Salvation created.

ArcherofAiur
06-12-2009, 09:15 PM
The only acceptable status for the MULE is non-existent. The entire mechanic disgusts me to my core.
What dont you like about it? And lets have a real discussion this time. Dont just say its tedious. Talk about what the problem is and how it can be improved while maintaining macro for the Terrans.

DemolitionSquid
06-12-2009, 09:24 PM
What dont you like about it? And lets have a real discussion this time. Dont just say its tedious. Talk about what the problem is and how it can be improved while maintaining macro for the Terrans.

The MULE is nothing but an timed APM sink. I believe macro can be more than that. Like spawn larva. Using it is not required at a constant interval, and its weighed against other meaningful abilities (Creep Tumor and Razor Swarm). MILES and proton charge require to be clicked every x seconds to stay up with resource collection. That's not fun, that's busywork, which the pros may love but will ruin the game for everyone else. They provide no choice, no strategy.

The bottom line is, the nature of the MULE (in its current or your suggested form) is flawed. The MULE will ALWAYS be best used to mine. No matter any abilities you give it (unless those abilities do not interfere with its mining), this will remain true. Because the game is, at its simplest, the most effective way to maximize resource intake and output. As long as a MULE can bring in more resources than it costs, it will be used for mining. Only if it does not provide a significant payback for its cost will it either be used for its secondary purposes (like Mines) or not used at all. The same goes with Proton Charge.

Kimera757
06-12-2009, 09:39 PM
You need to click near the mineral line to call-down your MULE there.

Not really; you have a mini-map.

ArcherofAiur
06-12-2009, 10:15 PM
The MULE is nothing but an timed APM sink. I believe macro can be more than that. Like spawn larva. Using it is not required at a constant interval, and its weighed against other meaningful abilities (Creep Tumor and Razor Swarm). MILES and proton charge require to be clicked every x seconds to stay up with resource collection.

How do you know that spawn larva is not required at a constant interval?




The bottom line is, the nature of the MULE (in its current or your suggested form) is flawed. The MULE will ALWAYS be best used to mine. No matter any abilities you give it (unless those abilities do not interfere with its mining), this will remain true.

What if we gave the MULE the ability to turn into a nuke and explode? Then would it still ALWAYS be used to mine. You can make a powerful ability to compete with extra minerals. I think free supply is a very good canidate.



Because the game is, at its simplest, the most effective way to maximize resource intake and output. As long as a MULE can bring in more resources than it costs, it will be used for mining. Only if it does not provide a significant payback for its cost will it either be used for its secondary purposes (like Mines) or not used at all. The same goes with Proton Charge


I think people sometimes overstate the importance of minerals. All the minerals in the world will not help you if you do not have production buildings to use them, supply depots etc.. I can see the spawn larvae being just as powerful as extra minerals.



Not really; you have a mini-map.

Do you know for a fact it is possible to call down MULEs with the mini-map?

Kimera757
06-12-2009, 10:23 PM
How do you know that spawn larva is not required at a constant interval?

Because people don't think at a constant rate.

I don't necessarily agree with Demolition Squid, but I understand his position. At its core, Proton Charge and MULEs simply recreate the mechanic of "busywork = resources" and people willing to bore themselves that way may get an unfair advantage, to the point that everyone may feel the need to do it (or, alternatively, complain that StarCraft II is no fun because if you don't do that busywork you will lose). I can't wait for beta, as I want to see if Demolition Squid's fears are unfounded, or if he's StarCraft II's Cassandra.

However, Spawn Larvae is completely different and much more complicated. You won't have many queens (unlike obelisks and MULEs, queens actually take "supply" now), and spawning larvae is pointless if you don't have the control to turn them into things, don't have the resources to morph them into things, etc, and even if you have all these things, you still have to decide what unit(s) to turn them into. There's also a lot more choice with what you do with the larvae. It isn't binary (either you get more resources or you don't; and there's only one right answer to that too); there's drones, and then there's about ten other units which you can use for certain combos, counters, or what have you, and all those things have control costs too (except overlords, of course).


I think people sometimes overstate the importance of minerals. All the minerals in the world will not help you if you do not have production buildings to use them, supply depots etc.. I can see the spawn larvae being just as powerful as extra minerals.

With minerals, you can build a bunch of production structure, and replace losses more quickly. More minerals means you can expand more easily (you can get a town center up faster, you can more easily afford to lose an expansion, you can more easily afford to defend an expansion with static non-supply-costing structures, etc).


Do you know for a fact it is possible to call down MULEs with the mini-map?

I play Warcraft III. I'm pretty sure you can do that in WC III, and StarCraft II has an even better UI.

DemolitionSquid
06-12-2009, 10:30 PM
How do you know that spawn larva is not required at a constant interval?

I don't, and it probably will be. But its versatility is the important part. Spawn Larva is competing with the very needed Creep Tumor. Its also limited by the proximity of your Queen to a Hatchery, and the Hatchery itself. NYou can only have 7 larva at any given hatchery. Those Larva can become any, unit, building, or Drones to mine more resources, and you will need to use some for other purposes than mining. Those larva are competing with themselves for resources. They are versatile.

PC and MULE are not. Because they affect resource collection directly, they provide no choice. PC only affects Probes, and competes with two non-critical abilities. MULES are limited only by the energy you possess from your OC, and any abilities they are given, unless they are unbalanced, will not outweigh the potential they have to give you more resources for more permanent, more powerful troops.


What if we gave the MULE the ability to turn into a nuke and explode? Then would it still ALWAYS be used to mine. You can make a powerful ability to compete with extra minerals. I think free supply is a very good canidate.

If MULES were nukes it would be unbalanced, obviously. They would be used to mine until such time as they were needed to explode. MULES with Spider Mines would be used immediately to plant their mines, then be set off to go mine resources. It would not solve the problem that their ultimate purpose is to mine.


I think people sometimes overstate the importance of minerals. All the minerals in the world will not help you if you do not have production buildings to use them, supply depots etc.. I can see the spawn larvae being just as powerful as extra minerals.

And that's the stupidest thing ever said on a SC forum. Without minerals, you wouldn't have production buildings. Minerals are THE single most important thing in the game. They are the alpha and the omega.

ArcherofAiur
06-12-2009, 10:35 PM
However, Spawn Larvae is completely different and much more complicated. You won't have many queens (unlike obelisks and MULEs, queens actually take "supply" now), and spawning larvae is pointless if you don't have the control to turn them into things, don't have the resources to morph them into things, etc, and even if you have all these things, you still have to decide what unit(s) to turn them into. There's also a lot more choice with what you do with the larvae. It isn't binary (either you get more resources or you don't; and there's only one right answer to that too); there's drones, and then there's about ten other units which you can use for certain combos, counters, or what have you, and all those things have control costs too (except overlords, of course).



I am going to replace spawn larvae with MULE to show how the same can apply to mineral harvesting

"However, MULE is completely different and much more complicated. You won't have many MULE (if we require permanant mules to take up supply which i support.), and minerals are pointless if you don't have the control to turn them into things, don't have the barracks to build them into things, etc, and even if you have all these things, you still have to decide what unit(s) to turn them into. There's also a lot more choice with what you do with the minerals. It isn't binary (either you get more larvae or you don't; and there's only one right answer to that too); there's SCV's, and then there's about ten other units which you can use for certain combos, counters, or what have you, and all those things have control costs too (except supply depots, of course)."

Kimera757
06-12-2009, 10:38 PM
I am going to replace spawn larvae with MULE to show how the same can apply to mineral harvesting

Okay.


MULE is pointless if you don't have the control to turn them into things

Wait. What?


don't have the barracks to build them into things, etc, and even if you have all these things, you still have to decide what unit(s) to turn them into.

No. Huge difference.

It's not a good idea to save money in StarCraft, but you can save minerals if you don't know what to spend them on yet. Having a bunch of unspent minerals is bad, but not as bad as having no minerals.

This is not equivalent.

ArcherofAiur
06-12-2009, 10:40 PM
And that's the stupidest thing ever said on a SC forum.

And a good day to you too sir.



Without minerals, you wouldn't have production buildings. Minerals are THE single most important thing in the game. They are the alpha and the omega.


Without production buildings (Command Center) you wouldnt have minerals. Kinda a chicken and egg thing aint it.

Even pros have trouble keeping up with their mineral usage in the late game. Also, production buildings dont just require minerals. They require commitment (back to base) and time.


Kimera757 are we in disagreement that minerals require choice on how to spend them? (and i meant to put minerals in that quote instead of MULE. My mistake)

DemolitionSquid
06-12-2009, 10:50 PM
And a good day to you too sir.

Not my fault you're spewing nonsense.


Without production buildings (Command Center) you wouldnt have minerals. Kinda a chicken and egg thing aint it.

No, its not. You need the minerals. The minerals do not need you. Without minerals, there are no units, no buildings. Without units and buildings, there's still minerals. The minerals came first, fool. Just like the egg.



Even pros have trouble keeping up with their mineral usage in the late game. Also, production buildings dont just require minerals. They require commitment (back to base) and time.

As K757 said: too many minerals is better than no minerals.

ArcherofAiur
06-12-2009, 10:53 PM
Not my fault you're spewing nonsense.

Dont be rude even if I am spewing nonsense (which i wasnt). It doesnt help your arguement in the slightest.




No, its not. You need the minerals. The minerals do not need you. Without minerals, there are no units, no buildings. Without units and buildings, there's still minerals. The minerals came first, fool. Just like the egg.

How can you harvest minerals without SCVs which come from production buildings? Its a positive feedback loop. Anyway this is gettting off topic.






As K757 said: too many minerals is better than no minerals.
too many larvae is better than no larvae.

I have to bike 80 miles tomro so I have to get some sleep but post and ill reply tomro.

Kimera757
06-12-2009, 11:05 PM
Kimera757 are we in disagreement that minerals require choice on how to spend them? (and i meant to put minerals in that quote instead of MULE. My mistake)

We are in disagreement that there is a choice on how to use MULEs, it seems. Or something. There is only one way to use MULEs -- to harvest minerals.

Because minerals are so important to the game, a player who uses MULEs always beat a player who doesn't, if their skill levels are anywhere close to each other. (It doesn't help that busywork is boring; people who are playing for fun will lose so often they'll leave battle.net, never to return.)

Or maybe not. Perhaps the player who isn't spending time macro-ing by making MULEs can win through reaper raids or what not (one reason why I'm not as convinced as Demolition Squid that MULEs are terrible; I'm trying not to project this on overly-macro-heavy StarCraft I) but it's entirely possible that Demo Squid is right and that the MULE-user always wins. And even if they don't ... there's still only one way to use MULEs.

What do larvae get you? Each one can give a drone, overlord, zergling, roach, corruptor, mutalisk, hydralisk, infestor, or ultralisk.) Note that you can use drones to get more minerals (if you don't mind paying up front for them) but you still have potentially eight more options.)

If you have two players, each using Spawn Larvae, they may come to different decisions. One may make drones, one may make zerglins, one may make hydralisks. Neither is guaranteed to win (it would be interesting to see if you can make enough drones to get an overwhelming economic advantage though). Or you can not use Spawn Larvae, and instead expand your creep (+30% speed; I don't think it's all that but lots of people would love creep highways) or use the queen as a combat monster, continually summoning Razor Swarms to back up her decent combat statistics. Or you can skip making queens altogether and simply make more hatcheries which will give you more larvae anyway (and maybe more drones). Even is spawning extra drones is "broken" it may still match making extra drones with extra hatcheries. Any of those strategies can give roughly equivalent benefits.

What options do MULEs give you? More minerals. That is all. What you do with the MULEs is busywork as it requires next to no thought.

With Spawn Larvae you have nine options if you've ascended the tech tree, and that's per larva, every time you make one, and you get 3-5 extra ones each time so that's 3-5 decisions per use (and they need not all be the same; eg make 4 zerglings and 1 hydralisks, or 6 zerglings instead). At minimum you have three choices: drones, overlords, or zerglings, since you need a spawning pool to make the queen in the first place.

So what's the problem with permanent MULEs? You no longer have the fast and constant screen switching that some fans consider exciting.


too many larvae is better than no larvae.

I disagree. Energy I wasted on larvae I'm not using can be spend on creep tumors (you have to have those, and I'd rather spend energy than drones on more permanent creep) or on Razor Swarms (great for base defense). Also, if you fill up a hatchery with extra larvae, they stop generating, and every 20 seconds (or however often a larvae automatically spawns for free) you've basically wasted one of the summoned larvae. Unlike minerals, where (if you're a poor player) you could store for half the game before using.

DemolitionSquid
06-12-2009, 11:09 PM
Dont be rude even if I am spewing nonsense (which i wasnt). It doesnt help your arguement in the slightest.

Discrediting the author of the counter argument is always a viable strategy.


How can you harvest minerals without SCVs which come from production buildings? Its a positive feedback loop. Anyway this is gettting off topic.

You just don't get it. You need to mine minerals. Minerals don't need you to mine them. The minerals are in control, not you.


too many larvae is better than no larvae.

Except when you can't have any more larva, or when you have larva but no minerals and thus can't do anything either way.

Triceron
06-13-2009, 02:01 AM
Theoretically

You could take off 5 SCV's off of minerals and make 5 facilities given that you've got enough minerals. Then you call down MULEs to replace the SCV's taken off for production. By the time the production is done, the SCVs can go back to work, and MULEs temporary effect will probably wear off

Essentially you're not going to lose out on production facilities by having Mules in play; you simply make more buildings to compensate. You're going to get the same amount, if not more minerals coming in due to MULE support, so why not spend it on more production facilities? There's no reason why not to have 3+ barracks if you can afford it and are getting more minerals in temporarily.

When you have a good number of production buildings, every other time you use MULE will give you extra resources to create many units at the same time, given you have enough supply. This would be perfect after sending some units off out to harass, which the Terrans seem to specialize at.

unentschieden
06-13-2009, 05:30 AM
The MULE creates opportunity costs due to the need for Orbital Command energy. The alternative uses would be call supply (booring, I donīt even care if itīs balanced) and Scan is absolutely vital.
That would be the more important angle. Rather than expanding the MULEs role it should be REDUCED to make the alternatives stronger. The first layer would be the desicion between Planetary Fortress and Orbital Command. Iīm not shure right now how good the PF is but I expect at least 50/50 if not more OCs.
Then the abilities in the OC itself. Scan is obvious, itīs need will depend on the importance of mobile detection (I expect the Raven to be gas heavy so you wouldnīt be able to compensate the lack of scan with more minerals)
Finally the 3rd one. Karune mentioned before that the main difference between PF and OC is local and global advantage. The OC is supposed to have abilities discoupled from itīs position. I think it would be more realistic to come up with something new here instead of changing the MULE concept (well they could make it permanent at least...).

Crazy_Jonny
06-13-2009, 06:44 AM
I dont think the Mule should be given another ability. The whole point of it is it IS an ability... in unit form... hence why its timed.

One of the reasons Im not really against the mule atm is because of the drop pod, I just think itll be really useful to expanding (which was demonstrated in BR2), so I find the apm sink argument bogus. What they need to do is make the other abilites compete with the mule, the same way abilites on a unit compete with eachother. Minerals dont mean everything if... lets say: a bunch of dts are attacking you. Are you gonna cast another mule, no. So it helps break it from the monotony.

Proton Charge is another story.

DemolitionSquid
06-13-2009, 11:38 AM
Scan is absolutely vital.

Assumption.

As I have stated many times before, most pros will keep enough energy for an emergency scan, and all other energy will be relegated to MULES. No one will use Supply calldown. Do not forget that Terran still have detection on their Missile Turrets, and they now have the Sensor Tower.


Iīm not shure right now how good the PF is but I expect at least 50/50 if not more OCs.

Again, pro games, 100% OC, 0% PF. The extra minerals gained from having OC MULES will outweigh the defense provided by the PF, because those extra minerals can be used for other static defenses, and anything else you may want.

unentschieden
06-13-2009, 12:41 PM
Assumption.

As I have stated many times before, most pros will keep enough energy for an emergency scan, and all other energy will be relegated to MULES. No one will use Supply calldown. Do not forget that Terran still have detection on their Missile Turrets, and they now have the Sensor Tower.



Again, pro games, 100% OC, 0% PF. The extra minerals gained from having OC MULES will outweigh the defense provided by the PF, because those extra minerals can be used for other static defenses, and anything else you may want.

Last we heard only Sensor Towers get Detection. Still what you bring up are balance issues. If the alternatives to MULEs are useless they need to be improved or replaced, simple as that. If scan is unimportant the enemys possibly have lacking ability to stop scouting.


Your suggestion actually makes the MULE worse, why bother with anything else given that?

True the ability to drop anywhere is underutilised - intentionally. Karune stated that initially each drop pod carried 3 MULEs but that was to powerfull as scouting tool.

The actuall reason for the mapwide drop is that a OC in your outmined main can still provide a benefit for other expansions. And since the 3x while saturated Mining really speeds up mining that might occur more often.

If you want mines anywhere on the map why not drop them directly via OC instead of giving it to the MULE?


The idea isnīt to simply assume what youre predicting as truth. Shure it would end up like that in a "proper" game but that never happens, no plan survives contact with the enemy.

PF need to be viable in vulnerable positions. OCs not. That is the primary balancing requirement. Secondary is to make non-MULE abilities attractive.
If Blizzard doesnīt get this to work they should let the CC produce MULEs directly.

DemolitionSquid
06-13-2009, 12:54 PM
Last we heard only Sensor Towers get Detection. Still what you bring up are balance issues. If the alternatives to MULEs are useless they need to be improved or replaced, simple as that. If scan is unimportant the enemys possibly have lacking ability to stop scouting.

Last I heard Turrets still had detect.


Your suggestion actually makes the MULE worse, why bother with anything else given that?

True the ability to drop anywhere is underutilised - intentionally. Karune stated that initially each drop pod carried 3 MULEs but that was to powerfull as scouting tool.

The actuall reason for the mapwide drop is that a OC in your outmined main can still provide a benefit for other expansions. And since the 3x while saturated Mining really speeds up mining that might occur more often.

If you want mines anywhere on the map why not drop them directly via OC instead of giving it to the MULE?

Please ensure its clear this is directed at the OP, not me.

Kimera757
06-13-2009, 01:23 PM
Last I heard Turrets still had detect.

Check the Korean info at StarCraft Legacy news... can't wait for beta, so we can be sure that everything reported is correct.

unentschieden
06-13-2009, 01:44 PM
Please ensure its clear this is directed at the OP, not me.

Sorry, somehow mixed you two up. Still the message applies. You said that the minerals mined by MULEs outweight the value in defense the PF provides. I really wonder, especially since I donīt know how much the MULEs actually mine and how strong the PF exactly is.
If it doesnīt add up they either have to improve the PF until itīs worth it or remove it.

SaharaDrac
06-13-2009, 01:48 PM
I suggest that the M.U.L.E. be able to gather the precious third resource Smithore.

http://www.coolrom.com/screenshots/nes/M.U.L.E..gif

Kimera757
06-13-2009, 01:58 PM
Sorry, somehow mixed you two up. Still the message applies. You said that the minerals mined by MULEs outweight the value in defense the PF provides. I really wonder, especially since I donīt know how much the MULEs actually mine and how strong the PF exactly is.
If it doesnīt add up they either have to improve the PF until itīs worth it or remove it.

1) MULEs mine three times more minerals than SCVs.

Source quote: "Currently the MULE mines three times the minerals of a normal SCV per round."

Source link: http://sc2pod.com/news/Fan_Site_QA_3__SC2Pod/ (SC2Pod Q&A.)

I seriously doubt MULEs will continue to mine at that rate.

2) Get info on the planetary fortress here (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Planetary_fortress). Again, stats are always in flux, but beefing it up might not work. If you buy one, it's wasted if the enemy does not attack, while you could use the extra resources provided by MULEs to protect new expansions anyway and probably still have enough to get an edge in other areas (eg offense, scouting, whatever).

DemolitionSquid
06-13-2009, 01:59 PM
1) MULEs mine three times more minerals than SCVs.

Source quote: "Currently the MULE mines three times the minerals of a normal SCV per round."

Source link: [http://sc2pod.com/news/Fan_Site_QA_3__SC2Pod/ SC2Pod Q&A].

I seriously doubt MULEs will continue to mine at that rate.

2) Get info on the planetary fortress here (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Planetary_fortress). Again, stats are always in flux, but beefing it up might not work. If you buy one, it's wasted if the enemy does not attack, while you could use the extra resources provided by MULEs to protect new expansions anyway and probably still have enough to get an edge in other areas (eg offense, scouting, whatever).

Quoted because its EXACTLY what I was going to say.

Gifted
06-13-2009, 03:56 PM
I've never found a solid way of describing this, so follow along with disgust >.<

I always found it interesting that the Command Center was created with the means to convert a central portion of the base to a cannon. My thought was how they would convert those items to a scanner and portion to improve mineral Production. In thinking of the barrels of the cannon, I came up with an idea.

How about the barrels of the cannon became some sort of burrowing arm of the command center, which burrowed into a mineral patch and focused energy from the base to burn into the crystal at a fast pace and essentially inject the crystals directly to the command center. It would improve macro, explain where the extra parts came from and explain why the scan wouldn't work as well.

MULE does explain the energy portion and honestly is more useful. (You can toss MULES down in front of your marines to create a fake wall in a pinch)

I kept thinking about making MULES into mines as well, mobile explosive units, but then I thought too much about terran banelings... or a mobile version of the Raider bombs.

unentschieden
06-13-2009, 04:39 PM
1) MULEs mine three times more minerals than SCVs.

Source quote: "Currently the MULE mines three times the minerals of a normal SCV per round."

Source link: [http://sc2pod.com/news/Fan_Site_QA_3__SC2Pod/ SC2Pod Q&A].

I seriously doubt MULEs will continue to mine at that rate.


So far I already knew but Iīd like to know how much they cost in energy and how long they last. From the BR2 I estimate 50 energy (2 OC, 7MULEs) and they seemed to last from 19:45 to 20:50.



2) Get info on the planetary fortress here (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Planetary_fortress). Again, stats are always in flux, but beefing it up might not work. If you buy one, it's wasted if the enemy does not attack, while you could use the extra resources provided by MULEs to protect new expansions anyway and probably still have enough to get an edge in other areas (eg offense, scouting, whatever).

Itīs actually the BEST case if the PF prevents the enemy from attacking. Defense isnīt about the enemy suiciding against your defense line but protecting your economy.

DemolitionSquid
06-13-2009, 05:06 PM
Itīs actually the BEST case if the PF prevents the enemy from attacking. Defense isnīt about the enemy suicidal against your defense line but protecting your economy.

This is true. But since Terran defense can be achieved though alternative means such as bunkers and turrets, but supply-less rapid mining from MULES cannot, the MULES will always win.

ArcherofAiur
06-13-2009, 05:24 PM
We are in disagreement that there is a choice on how to use MULEs, it seems. Or something. There is only one way to use MULEs -- to harvest minerals.


There is only one way to use spawn larvae -- to make larvae. You seem to be thinking that a unit production slot equals a unit. Actually its unit production slot + min/gas+time =unit. Spawn larvae releases the pressure on the production slot part of the equation. MULEs release pressure on the min/gas. And, I think warp-in and reactors release pressure on the time.




Because minerals are so important to the game, a player who uses MULEs always beat a player who doesn't, if their skill levels are anywhere close to each other. (It doesn't help that busywork is boring; people who are playing for fun will lose so often they'll leave battle.net, never to return.)
Unit production slots are also importnat to the game and a player that uses spawn larvae will always beat a player who doesnt. Unless ofcourse that player who doesnt is using his time to cast psi-storms and out micro your army. Which you pointed out so I agree with you.



What do larvae get you? Each one can give a drone, overlord, zergling, roach, corruptor, mutalisk, hydralisk, infestor, or ultralisk.) Note that you can use drones to get more minerals (if you don't mind paying up front for them) but you still have potentially eight more options.)

Decisions you can make with 200 minerals (ill use SC1 stuff)
SCVs
Supply depot
Refinery
Barracks
Engineering Bay
Turret
Bunker
Acadimy
Vulture
Marine
Repair

And thats not even counting the decisions you can make if you have some gas too.







So what's the problem with permanent MULEs? You no longer have the fast and constant screen switching that some fans consider exciting.

SCV's are permanant and in SC1 they promote constant screen switching.





I disagree. Energy I wasted on larvae I'm not using can be spend on creep tumors (you have to have those, and I'd rather spend energy than drones on more permanent creep) or on Razor Swarms (great for base defense). Also, if you fill up a hatchery with extra larvae, they stop generating, and every 20 seconds (or however often a larvae automatically spawns for free) you've basically wasted one of the summoned larvae. Unlike minerals, where (if you're a poor player) you could store for half the game before using.

If your not going to use the minerals for half the game wouldnt it be better to use the energy for supply or comsat and just let your SCV's mine the minerals at normal rate?

MattII
06-13-2009, 06:23 PM
This is true. But since Terran defense can be achieved though alternative means such as bunkers and turrets, but supply-less rapid mining from MULES cannot, the MULES will always win.

Except perhaps in gold-mineral patches where assault is almost guaranteed to be heavy, and at least you can drop in mules from other OCs.

Zigurd
06-13-2009, 06:37 PM
The MULE is nothing but an timed APM sink. I believe macro can be more than that. Like spawn larva. Using it is not required at a constant interval, and its weighed against other meaningful abilities (Creep Tumor and Razor Swarm). MILES and proton charge require to be clicked every x seconds to stay up with resource collection. That's not fun, that's busywork, which the pros may love but will ruin the game for everyone else. They provide no choice, no strategy.

The bottom line is, the nature of the MULE (in its current or your suggested form) is flawed. The MULE will ALWAYS be best used to mine. No matter any abilities you give it (unless those abilities do not interfere with its mining), this will remain true. Because the game is, at its simplest, the most effective way to maximize resource intake and output. As long as a MULE can bring in more resources than it costs, it will be used for mining. Only if it does not provide a significant payback for its cost will it either be used for its secondary purposes (like Mines) or not used at all. The same goes with Proton Charge.

Repped. Sorry it's just imaginary though.

unentschieden
06-13-2009, 06:48 PM
This is true. But since Terran defense can be achieved though alternative means such as bunkers and turrets, but supply-less rapid mining from MULES cannot, the MULES will always win.

Well what would be a solution to that? Iīm specifically asking for a improvement of the PF regardless how MULEs turn out.

DemolitionSquid
06-13-2009, 06:59 PM
Except perhaps in gold-mineral patches where assault is almost guaranteed to be heavy, and at least you can drop in mules from other OCs.

Or, again, just build other defenses using the increased income you get from more MULES.


Well what would be a solution to that? Iīm specifically asking for a improvement of the PF regardless how MULEs turn out.

The solution is to give the PF access to MULES.

Of course that doesn't solve the bigger issue of MULES being a bad mechanic in the first place.