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XSOLDIER
06-10-2009, 06:27 PM
From the more recent reports, the Zerg are suffering from several things - one of which is hitting the unit cap with so many units, while not being able to overcome the stronger units of the Protoss & Terran by sheer numbers.

Suicide Units like the Banelings help with this a little bit, but it's apparently not doing enough (especially without disposable Scourge for an AA tactic).

I was thinking that having Consume again might help the Zerg out when they're using casters to keep their unit total down a bit - it also makes their caster units a lot more effective in being able to pound down a lot of damage very quickly at the cost of their weaker units. Thoughts?


X :cool:

PsiWarp
06-10-2009, 06:36 PM
Sure, as long as Consume requires a cooldown :P

The Infestor would be ideal for such a boost, in my opinon.


-Psi

XSOLDIER
06-10-2009, 06:41 PM
Sure, as long as Consume requires a cooldown :P

The Infestor would be ideal for such a boost, in my opinon.


-Psi

I completely agree with the Cooldown - I can't see the ability not having it the way everything else in SC2 works.

The real question with the Infestor is - should they have to surface to use the ability?


X :cool:

PsiWarp
06-10-2009, 06:46 PM
Speaking of the Infestor's abilities, I really wish Blizzard would look at it with a bit more depth. This is especially due to complete collection of abilities while Burrowed, aka permanent invisibility with abilities.

I think Blizzard should limit the Infestor's ability options while burrowed, given the power of invisibility from Burrow. Consume should probably be accessed in both modes, and one ability from the complete set, to be able to use while burrowed.


-Psi

Triceron
06-10-2009, 06:54 PM
Spawn infested marines

Consume 1/5 marines for energy

Spawn infested marines

Consume 1/5 marines for energy...

PsiWarp
06-10-2009, 06:56 PM
Spawn infested marines

Consume 1/5 marines for energy

Spawn infested marines

Consume 1/5 marines for energy...

Spawn Infested Marines... lasts 10 seconds...

Consume once... 20 second cooldown...


-Psi

XSOLDIER
06-10-2009, 06:57 PM
Obviously units with a timed health shouldn't be selectable as a Consumable target...


X :cool:

PsiWarp
06-10-2009, 07:10 PM
What if...

Spawn Units = 25 energy
Light Units = 50 energy
Armored Units = 75 energy

Non-massive, ground units only :P


-Psi

Nicol Bolas
06-10-2009, 07:14 PM
From the more recent reports, the Zerg are suffering from several things - one of which is hitting the unit cap with so many units

What reports say this? I've heard reports that say that Zerg units are too weak, or Tier 2 being "useless", but I don't recall anything about hitting the unit cap.


Sure, as long as Consume requires a cooldown

You may as well just have them research an upgrade that increases their energy regeneration rate.


I think Blizzard should limit the Infestor's ability options while burrowed, given the power of invisibility from Burrow.

Why? Ghosts get to cast their full suite of abilities while cloaked.

PsiWarp
06-10-2009, 07:17 PM
Ghosts actually have to spend energy for Cloak, Burrow is switching between modes.


-Psi

Nicol Bolas
06-10-2009, 07:18 PM
Ghosts actually have to spend energy for Cloak, Burrow is switching between modes.

And Infestors are Tier 2, while Ghosts are Tier 1. What's your point?

PsiWarp
06-10-2009, 07:21 PM
What's the point of surfacing aside from movement speed difference and transportation?


-Psi

Pandonetho
06-10-2009, 07:21 PM
Don't ghosts come after the factory?

ArcherofAiur
06-10-2009, 07:27 PM
I am glad to see so many people in favor of consume. It is an incredibly elegant ablity and very zergish. It doesnt even need to be on the Infestor (queen or overseer would be an interesting choice). Should definatly make the final cut if at all possible.

pure.Wasted
06-10-2009, 07:39 PM
What reports say this? I've heard reports that say that Zerg units are too weak, or Tier 2 being "useless", but I don't recall anything about hitting the unit cap.

I'm pretty sure this is from the gamer impressions from the recent events. I looked through them briefly and at least one suggested this -- that Zerg seemed to be seriously underpowered going into the late late game

That said, the article was pretty suspect. For one thing, the argument went "Zerg can't stand toe to toe against other races for equal population" -- which is pretty silly, since as far as I understand not really meant to. Hence having cheaper units and more of them. So if the Zerg's let the T/P get to 200 pop, it does follow that he should be in trouble.

Norfindel
06-10-2009, 08:45 PM
If they hit the unit cap, and they cannot still defeat the other races, it's a balance problem. Consume won't help with that, but it's a good ability to have, always keeping an eye on balance, of course.

Kimera757
06-10-2009, 08:48 PM
Ghosts come pretty early. Cloaking is pretty late.

Ghosts can attack without spending energy while cloaked, which is something infestors can't do. I don't worry too much about infestors being "cloaked" while casting.

Caliban113
06-10-2009, 08:48 PM
As the little Hydralisk girl often sez....

http://nerfnow.com/comic/27 (Damn - image wouldn't load)


I definitely like the idea of bringing consume back, but instead of a classic cooldown, would like to see something along the lines of, "Cannibalize' in WC3 - where the once the zerg unit is killed by the caster, the caster must feed in place until the entire unit corpse is consumed. It would continue to receive a steady stream of mana until finished or interrupted - This changes the mechanic enough so that it's not just a complete rehash of the original.

Also, I remember being very excited to try out, 'consume' when I first played Zerg; it sounded pretty gruesome. When I finally saw it tho, I was disappointed. A little swirly graphic, and *pow* the unit was gone...Thats it? When I saw 'Cannibalize' in WC3 - I thought this was more along the lines of what they should have done in SC.

pure.Wasted
06-10-2009, 09:11 PM
If they hit the unit cap, and they cannot still defeat the other races, it's a balance problem.

I don't think 200-pop's worth of single Zerg army has any right to contend with 200-pop's worth of single Terran/Protoss army... although seeing as how the Zerg should have more expansions, they'll be able to rebuild much faster, and wear the T/P down after a few skirmishes.

Zerg advantage is numbers. Having equal population completely undermines the possibility for advantage in numbers. This is a core Zerg mechanic.

Pandonetho
06-10-2009, 09:15 PM
The original consume is fine, if they're going to bring it back I'd prefer they bring it back unchanged.

I don't want no Consume "Warcraftilized" or anything. Or "faster energy regeneration."


Zerg advantage is numbers. Having equal population completely undermines the possibility for advantage in numbers. This is a core Zerg mechanic.

I think people are forgetting that even if your population numbers are equal, the Zerg will still have more units...

So that 200/200 = Zerg sucks thing is flawed.

warrior6
06-10-2009, 09:30 PM
I definitely like the idea of bringing consume back, but instead of a classic cooldown, would like to see something along the lines of, "Cannibalize' in WC3 - where the once the zerg unit is killed by the caster, the caster must feed in place until the entire unit corpse is consumed. It would continue to receive a steady stream of mana until finished or interrupted - This changes the mechanic enough so that it's not just a complete rehash of the original.

this guy wins the thread

+1

PsiWarp
06-10-2009, 09:32 PM
I'd rather the caster just reduce target unit to 1 HP, which is practically dead in competitive gameplay when used on the battlefield, instead of a long drag for the ability to take notable effect (Cannibalize).


-Psi

Norfindel
06-10-2009, 09:53 PM
I don't think 200-pop's worth of single Zerg army has any right to contend with 200-pop's worth of single Terran/Protoss army... although seeing as how the Zerg should have more expansions, they'll be able to rebuild much faster, and wear the T/P down after a few skirmishes.

Zerg advantage is numbers. Having equal population completely undermines the possibility for advantage in numbers. This is a core Zerg mechanic.
That's why Zerg units cost less population than the other races. A Zergling cost only 1/2 population, a Roach 1, an Hydralisk 2, a Lurker 2, Mutalisk 2, Corruptor 2, Brood Lord 2. The most population-heavy Zerg unit is the Ultralisk, with 4 pop, but at least you get 600 hp. So, you would always have more units than the enemy, even if the population cap is 200 for both.

As a comparison, a Zealot costs 2 population, a Disruptor 2, a Stalker 2, Phoenix 2, Void Ray 3. An Immortal or Archon would cost 4 population, a Colossus 6, and the most expensive of all: the Mothership with 8 population.

Nicol Bolas
06-10-2009, 10:04 PM
What's the point of surfacing aside from movement speed difference and transportation?

These are not minor things.


Don't ghosts come after the factory?

No. The Ghost Academy requires only a Barracks. Now, some of the research might require higher tech. But the building, and thus the unit, only requires that.

PsiWarp
06-10-2009, 10:25 PM
No duh. All Zerg burrowed units have no mobility, with the exception of the Infestor, and unable to be transported while in this mode: a universal setback for the benefit of invisibility.

To be honest, the Infestor is very interesting with this power, and can be compared to the Reaper and Colossus' passive terrain elevation crossing. Still, there's just something about this that doesn't make the caster feel... semi-balanced.


-Psi

XSOLDIER
06-11-2009, 12:39 AM
Just thinking about how a couple other things work.

Consume would give the Zerg casters an interesting recovery mechanic against the Ghost's EMP by being able to recover their energy incredibly quickly. This could potentially turn the tide in some situations if the Ghosts hit a large support group of casters.

Consume would also allow you to sacrifice a small unit, like a Zergling, for a brief but powerful boost in firepower - like gaining 5 Infested Marines to hold off an attack - which are well worth sacrificing the one Zergling.

Overall I think that with the Terran & Protoss becoming more versatile with Reactors / Warp-In to match the Zerg's quick unit production, it would be interesting for the Zerg to be able to swap out their weaker units in a pinch for mana, for their casters.

(Does it seem like the Zerg have been cut back pretty significantly mid-game on their one-hit-firepower without the fast Infested Terrans, Scourge, and the old Queen's Spawn Broodling?)


X :cool:

pure.Wasted
06-11-2009, 12:47 AM
That's why Zerg units cost less population than the other races. A Zergling cost only 1/2 population, a Roach 1, an Hydralisk 2, a Lurker 2, Mutalisk 2, Corruptor 2, Brood Lord 2. The most population-heavy Zerg unit is the Ultralisk, with 4 pop, but at least you get 600 hp. So, you would always have more units than the enemy, even if the population cap is 200 for both.

As a comparison, a Zealot costs 2 population, a Disruptor 2, a Stalker 2, Phoenix 2, Void Ray 3. An Immortal or Archon would cost 4 population, a Colossus 6, and the most expensive of all: the Mothership with 8 population.

Also @Pandonetho.

I wouldn't say that this is true of all builds. Some of T's best anti-Zerg units are also their lowest pop units -- Marines, Reapers, Hellions. And two of those are also 2pump, which means they are not only a match for Zerg numbers, but also for Zerg training speeds.

In any case, I'm still not convinced that the writer of the article really knew what he was talking about. Those are the sort of judgements one can make after a week's worth of serious testing... not two hours' worth of play against people who are randomly either trying to steamroll their opposition OR sitting in their base clicking to hear the Marines' funny lines.

In principle, though, I'm for Consume making it into the game. Sacrificing a unit to fuel another unit is very "swarmy," and I'd even be in favor of more dynamics along the same lines being introduced. Different units eating Zerglings for different effects, or whatever. Or maybe not. But Consume is A-OK.

Triceron
06-11-2009, 01:21 AM
I'd rather the caster just reduce target unit to 1 HP, which is practically dead in competitive gameplay when used on the battlefield, instead of a long drag for the ability to take notable effect (Cannibalize).


-Psi

That makes me sad. I feel sorry for that Zerg unit that is being eaten but not killed, that's worse than being eaten alive. Imagine being that poor creature being fed on by another, helpless and barely alive having survived that terrible ordeal... Only to regenerate and have that happen again sometime later....

Horrible!

PsiWarp
06-11-2009, 01:32 AM
Yes, it is deliciously malicious and gruesome, thus very "Zerg" >:}

Take a chomp at any part of that Zergling for energy!


-Psi

Nicol Bolas
06-11-2009, 01:42 AM
This could potentially turn the tide in some situations if the Ghosts hit a large support group of casters.

So, you want to take an anti-spellcaster ability, one that is specifically anti-caster, and... make a spellcaster completely immune to it.

There's a reason why Science Vessels don't bother EMP'ing Defilers.


Consume would also allow you to sacrifice a small unit, like a Zergling, for a brief but powerful boost in firepower - like gaining 5 Infested Marines to hold off an attack - which are well worth sacrificing the one Zergling.

And? You could say the same thing about sacrificing a Zealot to get another Psi Storm. That something would be useful doesn't mean it should be in the game.


significantly mid-game on their one-hit-firepower without the fast Infested Terrans, Scourge, and the old Queen's Spawn Broodling?

No. Only one of those was ever in significant use.

PsiWarp
06-11-2009, 01:49 AM
The wording there is quite wrong, since Consume gives a set amount of energy, while EMP eliminates every last drop. Partial recovery, would be more appropriate.

Unless said Consume concept is the exact duplicate from Brood Wars, and Infestor returns to tier 3, then we can start screaming overpowered.


-Psi

Novasquadron
06-11-2009, 03:55 AM
Im down for the consume ability coming back.
I thought it was still in the current build of SC II.
I wonder what else i have assumed. :eek:

pure.Wasted
06-11-2009, 04:15 AM
The wording there is quite wrong, since Consume gives a set amount of energy, while EMP eliminates every last drop. Partial recovery, would be more appropriate.

Is that still a given, now that EMP only removes 100 shields, and is on a more easily massable unit? I wonder...

unentschieden
06-11-2009, 06:08 AM
Depends on what unit. Also what that unit then eventually gets as other abilities. By itself itīs a interesting ability but Iīd like to see the context first in which it would be used. Mostly though Iīd like a scaling effect for the type of unit. Ultralisks should bring more and Zerglings should offer less.

Nicol Bolas
06-11-2009, 12:18 PM
Is that still a given, now that EMP only removes 100 shields

They said it. They specifically said it removed 100 shields and all energy.

SpiderBrigade
06-11-2009, 12:30 PM
So, you want to take an anti-spellcaster ability, one that is specifically anti-caster, and... make a spellcaster completely immune to it.It's not immune. Consuming units takes time, and several posters in this thread have already suggested giving it a cooldown as well. So EMP over enemy Infestors would stop them from using any abilities for a meaningful chunk of time. That sounds pretty useful to me. At the very least, you are shutting down an ability your opponent has invested in, and you can also force him to spend additional micro actions replenishing his casters while losing units for no benefit.
There's a reason why Science Vessels don't bother EMP'ing DefilersThere is a reason, but it's not Consume. You have to research EMP, which would then only be useful against one enemy unit, and be inferior to Irradiate anyway since Irradiate is a death sentence against the Defiler as well as being useful against every other Zerg unit... In other words if irradiate weren't in the game you might see EMP used against Defilers. Well, no, you just wouldn't see Science Vessels in standard play anymore, but that's not the point :D

unentschieden
06-11-2009, 01:09 PM
Consume breaks the "normal" Energy system in SC. It means that you can spend units (usually cheap zerglings) for the Defilers Abilities. Normally Energy using units are reliant on Time instead of hard cash. The defiler is effectivly a Reaver light.

But he had to be. Especially Darkswarm has to be spammed to be effective. In games I NEVER see a singular or even just 2 DS during a single encounter. Itīs about somehow killing the Defiler during the retreat (often due to irradiate).

The current Casters would definetly benefit from consume too much. Neural Parasite? Razorswarm?

What Iīm arguing is that IF Consume comes back the unit needs to provide "spam" abilities. Iīm against a CD on consume because it defeats the point of the ability.

Edit: Well Spam isnīt the right word. The defiler had 2 energy using abilities: Plague and Dark Swarm. Plague is definetly powerfull but it doesnīt stack. Dark Swarm though would be useless if it couldnīt blanket the area.
Either way itīs figured in that a Player can essentially avoid the downtime element of energy based units.

SpiderBrigade
06-11-2009, 01:29 PM
Consume breaks the "normal" Energy system in SC. It means that you can spend units (usually cheap zerglings) for the Defilers Abilities. Normally Energy using units are reliant on Time instead of hard cash. The defiler is effectivly a Reaver light.

But he had to be. Especially Darkswarm has to be spammed to be effective. In games I NEVER see a singular or even just 2 DS during a single encounter. Itīs about somehow killing the Defiler during the retreat (often due to irradiate).Yeah, SC/BW spell balance was very odd. I think Consume is the only reason you see Defilers built in standard play. If the Queen had Consume, Ensnare would suddenly become a highly useful spell just like Dark Swarm is now (there are in fact a few pro-games where you do see Queens used for Ensnare). In other words Dark Swarm is only viable because of Consume, just like you said.

If you look at the other races, the casters that are used have other uses or functions. The Science Vessel is a detector, vital against Lurker forces. High Templar can meld into Archons if they run low on energy (plus Psi Storm is just so good). Ghosts have an attack, Arbiters have an attack and the AoE cloak. Zerg don't have any casters that have a "normal" function, so they really need something like Consume to be viable.

I don't know whether that means that SC2 needs to include Consume, however. The Queen has a basic attack, and both Overlords/Overseers and Infestors have secondary functions (detection, cloaked movement).

Nicol Bolas
06-11-2009, 01:47 PM
Consuming units takes time, and several posters in this thread have already suggested giving it a cooldown as well.

If the cooldown/casting time or whatever on the ability is at all significant, then what's the point? The entire purpose of Consume is to give a spellcaster effectively limitless energy right now. Not in 30 seconds, but now.

Plus, the fact that such an ability consumes units is now meaningless; it may as well just absorb minerals directly. For the Zerg, losing a unit meant essentially losing Larva. That's because Defilers could Consume much faster than larva spawn rates. If you give Consume a significant time penalty, then you're quickly replacing the larva, and the fact that you're eating a unit no longer has gameplay meaning.

If you're going to have to wait to use it anyway, just increase the energy regeneration rate and be done with it.


be inferior to Irradiate anyway since Irradiate is a death sentence against the Defiler

EMP is worse. Without consume, after an EMP the Zerg player now has a useless Defiler that takes up precious Control. Dead Defilers can be rebuilt; EMP'd Defilers are dead weight.

Triceron
06-11-2009, 02:11 PM
that 'dead weight' is not that bad, as the defiler is one unit at a cost of 2 control. You don't build masses of these, and having the enemy even think of using EMP to remove your one defiler out of play is hardly worse than outright killing it.

SpiderBrigade
06-11-2009, 02:17 PM
If the cooldown/casting time or whatever on the ability is at all significant, then what's the point? The entire purpose of Consume is to give a spellcaster effectively limitless energy right now. Not in 30 seconds, but now.Umm...it takes time in SC/BW as well. Like 1-2 seconds for each consume, not counting time for the Defiler to move to the target. You may not think that's significant but it really is. Last I checked this is still a game where split-second timing of abilities can make a huge difference - if your opponent can shut you down with EMP he has a chance to inflict massive damage to your army in the time it takes for you to consume 2 units and cast whatever ability is is you wanted. If you watch ZvT games you will see that the Zerg player doesn't just cover the map willy-nilly with Dark Swarm. Just because he has Consume doesn't mean he doesn't have to budget his energy. That's because Consume still takes significant time, and Dark Swarm needs to go down at the right moment to be useful. That's even more true of Plague - getting off an effective plague is a split-second matter, you can't be waiting around to consume a few Zerglings first. So again, if the enemy could EMP you and disrupt that timing, you could be put at a significant tactical disadvantage.

Further, I'll repeat the point that he's just forced you to divide your attention - that's micro APM you're not spending avoiding his Raven HSMs or bunching your mutas, which will cost you. Would consume make EMP less effective against Infestors than High Templar? Of course, but it's not "immunity" like you're suggesting. It's an ability with strengths and weaknesses, which is good.
Plus, the fact that such an ability consumes units is now meaningless; it may as well just absorb minerals directly. For the Zerg, losing a unit meant essentially losing Larva. That's because Defilers could Consume much faster than larva spawn rates. If you give Consume a significant time penalty, then you're quickly replacing the larva, and the fact that you're eating a unit no longer has gameplay meaning.It's not just larva. You're also sacrificing the units that you have in the field at that moment. If your opponent can force you to eat up a big part of your army to cast an ability, that means his EMP was well spent. But that's not even the main point here. Again, in this game a cooldown doesn't have to be 30 seconds to be meaningful - even a 2-3 second cooldown or 1-2 second casting time makes the abililty not "immunity to EMP" because it's not instant. Also, having to target and choose which units to eat is an important design feature - you are having to spend micro to get the benefit.
If you're going to have to wait to use it anyway, just increase the energy regeneration rate and be done with it.First of all, the cooldown could be extremely short and still be meaningful. No one but you is imagining a 30-second cooldown. Also, you're still ignoring the fact that having to select units and manually cast the ability is part of the design. The better you are with remembering to keep your caster units stocked with energy and rebuilding zerglings to supply them, the stronger those units are. Just like Stalker micro or Phoenix antigrav, this would be a skill-based utility.
EMP is worse. Without consume, after an EMP the Zerg player now has a useless Defiler that takes up precious Control. Dead Defilers can be rebuilt; EMP'd Defilers are dead weight.First of all, as has been discussed if you have no Consume the Zerg player won't be building Defilers. They are only viable with Consume. Best-case, you might argue that Dark Swarm is so vital to a ZvT game that Defilers would still be built - but in that case he would have to produce so many Defilers to spam Dark Swarm that you could never EMP them all anyway.

Second, you still have to prioritize spending research time and money on EMP vs Irradiate, which is a bad idea overall. In addition to the energy cost difference, EMP is only good against Defilers, whereas Irradiate is amazing (perhaps overpowered) against every other part of the Zerg army - bunched mutas, lurkers, Ultralisks, Overlords, etc. If you invest in EMP first you will be vulnerable to a tech-switch, while Irradiate can handle pretty much anything.

Finally, you act like rebuilding Defilers is instant and free - not so. If you kill all Defilers in the area the Zerg player will have to spend time, resources, and those precious larva you mentioned above to reinforce with new ones...which then start with not enough energy to cast anything and still need to be brought to the battlefield. On the other hand if you EMP the Defilers, the Zerg player can retreat it until the energy recharges. Again, if there is no Consume the Zerg will want as many Defilers as possible so it doesn't hurt him as much as losing the unit would.

Edit: I should note finally that I'm not really a proponent of the idea of Consume in SC2. Its probably not necessary in fact. As I mentioned before, all the Zerg casters (and casters in general) have been tweaked to serve some function even when out of energy. But your reasons are flawed.

Nicol Bolas
06-11-2009, 02:31 PM
You don't build masses of these

Only because you have Consume. Take Consume away, and you need to build them in numbers. Just like High Templar or Infestors in SC2.


it takes time in SC/BW as well. Like 1-2 seconds for each consume, not counting time for the Defiler to move to the target.

That's not significant when compared to the length of an average battle. Nobody has lost significant position because his Defiler was too busy consuming Zerglings to be useful. It's a pre-process step; you use it before the battle begins.

Not only that, Consume stacks; you can be in the process of consuming multiple units at once. So getting back to full energy only takes 2-3 seconds tops.


if you have no Consume the Zerg player won't be building Defilers. They are only viable with Consume.

That doesn't change the fact that units with Consume are effectively invulnerable to EMP.


If you invest in EMP first you will be vulnerable to a tech-switch, while Irradiate can handle pretty much anything.

Who said anything about investing in one first vs. second? It seems to me that it depends on need; you upgrade the ability you need. If he has Defilers, you get EMP first to counter. If he doesn't (yet), you get Irradiate, and upgrade EMP when the time is appropriate.

I would also point out that while Irradiate does kill the Defiler, it does take its sweet time about it. Indeed, most Irradiates on Defilers give them plenty of time to cast their spells before they die. Yes, they won't be casting any more spells, but the damage can still be done by an Irradiated Defiler. EMP doesn't allow that.

The only reason this doesn't get used in competitive play is Consume; they can quickly eat 4 Zerglings and get back the energy cost from your EMP. It's better to Irradiate them, as the Zerg is forced to rebuild the Defiler.


Finally, you act like rebuilding Defilers is instant and free - not so. If you kill all Defilers in the area the Zerg player will have to spend time, resources, and those precious larva you mentioned above to reinforce with new ones...which then start with not enough energy to cast anything and still need to be brought to the battlefield.

Time, as you have stated, is crucial in SC. The time it would take for a Defiler to go from 0 energy to being able to cast something is enormous. It's more time than it takes to just build a new Defiler. So either way, they have to make a new Defiler in order to get their next Swarm or whatever up. The difference is that they have a useless unit running around in one case, and not in the other.

SpiderBrigade
06-11-2009, 02:45 PM
That's not significant when compared to the length of an average battle. Nobody has lost significant position because his Defiler was too busy consuming Zerglings to be useful. It's a pre-process step; you use it before the battle begins.You're arguing against yourself here. Consume is pre-process because having to take time to do it in battle would be bad. In other words if your enemy is fielding ghosts with EMP, your units will not be starting the battle with any energy, and would have to take time consuming. The reason nobody loses position doing this is because Terrans don't EMP much (since Irradiate is so much stronger)
That doesn't change the fact that units with Consume are effectively invulnerable to EMP.Terran units can be repaired, does this mean they are invulnerable to Psi Storm?
Time, as you have stated, is crucial in SC. The time it would take for a Defiler to go from 0 energy to being able to cast something is enormous. It's more time than it takes to just build a new Defiler. So either way, they have to make a new Defiler in order to get their next Swarm or whatever up. The difference is that they have a useless unit running around in one case, and not in the other.Defilers don't come out with enough energy to cast anything. Once you factor that in, the time difference is not nearly as significant (I'll have to get into the game to test this out). And if you compare the two situations - in once case he has to rebuild the defiler and wait - then he has one defiler. If you EMP, he has to rebuild the defiler - but then he has TWO Defilers. Again, just like you say yourself, if you remove Consume Defilers would need to be massed to be useful. Temporarily disabling one or two defilers won't hurt as much as dropping his total defiler count will.
Only because you have Consume. Take Consume away, and you need to build them in numbers. Just like High Templar or Infestors in SC2.This is actually the strongest argument you've made, although it applies more to SC2.

In SC/BW, if you didn't have consume I really don't think Defilers would be built. High Templar are massed because Psi Storm is just so devastating in skillful hands - even with dodging it is incredibly powerful against basically any opposing army (not to mention worker raids). Yet you notice that standard TvP play doesn't usually invest in Science Vessels unless the Protoss player goes for Arbiter tech...

However in SC2 they have made an effort to make all casters versatile enough or powerful enough to warrant building them in numbers. Ghosts are relatively cheap and have an attack. Ravens have the powerful, spammable HSM. High Templar still have storm. Queens...well, I dont think they're intended to be massable exactly but they do have an attack.

The point is not that Consume would be bad for SC2, just that it's not really necessary. I think it might be interesting on the Infestor, though - just because other casters need to be massed doesn't mean that all have to be - it could be interesting for the Zerg to have rarer stand-alone casters. Adding consume to make the abilities of such a caster viable energy-wise (instead of just upping the energy recharge) is similar to giving the Phoenix Antigravity instead of just giving it a ground attack.

pure.Wasted
06-11-2009, 09:50 PM
They said it. They specifically said it removed 100 shields and all energy.

Thanks for clearing that up. Must have missed it in the orgy of less-than-reliable new info what with the recent events and all.

Runei
06-13-2009, 12:12 AM
Consume should be a mandatory ability on all zerg casters imo. With a race that is so quick to sacrafice units like the baneling and being so en masse it only makes sense that a natural trait would be to take advantage of your sheer number count to assist with the high tier casters.

mr. peasant
06-13-2009, 05:24 AM
Regarding Consume, rather than giving it a cooldown (or in addition to), why not setup a fixed conversion rate; i.e. 3 hit points for 1 energy gained. Consequently, cheap, massed units like the Zergling only provide 11 energy per unit where as Ultralisks recover 200 energy each.

Runei
06-13-2009, 05:54 AM
I think thats a pretty good idea. I don't know if I would sacrifice my ultras for a quick cast though but in theory it could work well.

Gifted
06-13-2009, 04:22 PM
Regarding Consume, rather than giving it a cooldown (or in addition to), why not setup a fixed conversion rate; i.e. 3 hit points for 1 energy gained. Consequently, cheap, massed units like the Zergling only provide 11 energy per unit where as Ultralisks recover 200 energy each.I'd like to second the opinion that this is a good idea.

PsiWarp
06-13-2009, 05:15 PM
That's pretty cool, Infestor slurping on a Zergling :D


-Psi

unentschieden
06-14-2009, 04:52 AM
In that case youīd use the wrong mesure stick. Zerg units usually have below value HP. For example the Roach that gets far less than heīd "deserve" because of the regeneration mechanic. Rather than HP it should be based on Food. That would also solve the issue of consuming the broodlords broodlings.

SlickR
06-14-2009, 05:15 AM
Depends how fast it regenerates the energy and the spells energy cost!
High templar didn't really need consume for example, it regained energy fairly fast, while storm being relatevly cheap