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Perfecttear
01-18-2010, 04:32 PM
Well i was thinking about the sc2 damage system, and i noticed something.- Units are less specialized in sc2 than in sc1. In sc2 the bonus damage is restricted to a max 50% of the units whole damage, where in sc1 the max was 75%.

So the thing i would like to ask you is, what are your thoughts about the 50% bonus damage being the maximum? What would you say if some units would have more bonus than basic damage. Do you think that sc2 could use more specialized units?


Well for myself, i would kinda like units to be more specialized. I think that having a game with many hard counters , actualy improves the micro in the game, since it forcess you to have a diverse army with diferent units( and punishes you if not( the oposite of C&C games where you just spam your best unit)). In the mittle of a batlle, the more micro skilled player, can have a huge advanatage, if he can comands his units on an invidual level to attack the enemy units that they are most afective against.
And one more thing, i think that alowing units to be more specialized, (larger percentage of bonus damage) would actualy help "balance" some units , like the marauder for example.;)

Any thoughts?

DemolitionSquid
01-18-2010, 04:39 PM
A game full of hard counters kills strategy. It limits options. There needs to be a balance between specialized and jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none units. With hard counters, one mistake can mean life or death. With diversity, it allows more chances to make up for mistakes and lead to comebacks, thus making better gameplay.

Perfecttear
01-18-2010, 04:50 PM
Well i see your point, but i didn't meant to say that all units should have bonus damage, just that some specific units , could be a bit more specialized.
And i also wonder, why is the limits in sc2 exactly 50-50% (normal-bonus damage), there could be atleast 2 or 3 units that could have more bonus damage than normal one, or does Blizzad have a secret rule, than bonus damage can not be more than 50% of the whole damage. Just wondering :p

Triceron
01-18-2010, 04:55 PM
The damage bonus might look slight singularly, but remember that this is an RTS and in practice, you would me making many of these units, as well as mixing units.

Take the Hydra for instance. It has a very minor bonus vs Armored unit, which makes it look like a mediocre counter vs armored units like stalkers. The ideal counter against these are Zerglings, which get no attack bonus at all, but they take a while to get proper surround. Now if you use both hydras AND zerglings? You have a potent combo that counters stalkers easily. Zerglings pressure stalkers to move, the hydras get in free shots from range.

Marauders don't have a huge bonus vs armored, but once you get 8-10 of these guys and hit stim? Supported by a few marines? These guys would chew through armored units pretty quick I'd say.

Having 'soft' hard-counter units forces players to mix them in with other units to bring out their potential. This is a lot better than players massing one type of hard-counter unit for each armor type and having the ideal, predicatable rock-paper-scissor setup.

Wlof
01-18-2010, 05:01 PM
Hi everybody i am new on forum,
and I wanted to comment on this first because I love blizz games and also I am a c&c fan,
and what yous say about c&c to spam your best unit that is not a case,yes maybe in some c&c games where we have some balance issues,
and counter system in c&c games is good it is rock paper scissors game and infantry can own tanks and tanks can own infantry it is all in players hands

Nicol Bolas
01-18-2010, 05:20 PM
In sc2 the bonus damage is restricted to a max 50% of the units whole damage, where in sc1 the max was 75%.

No, it isn't. The damage bonus is arbitrary. They simply haven't used a bonus that large.

And Reapers get double damage vs. light units. I'm pretty sure that 100% is greater than 50%.

Perfecttear
01-18-2010, 05:29 PM
No, it isn't. The damage bonus is arbitrary. They simply haven't used a bonus that large.

And Reapers get double damage vs. light units. I'm pretty sure that 100% is greater than 50%.

Uh no, Reapers have (4+4vs light) x2, meaning that 50% of their total damage is a bonus one . Like i said, i haven't yet seen a unit which damage bonus would be more than 50% procent of their whole damage, so i'm wondering why is this the case, exspecialy because in sc1 some units like the vulture had a 75% bonus damage .

RamiZ
01-18-2010, 05:38 PM
Uh no, Reapers have (4+4vs light) x2, meaning that 50% of their total damage is a bonus one . Like i said, i haven't yet seen a unit which damage bonus would be more than 50% procent of their whole damage, so i'm wondering why is this the case, exspecialy because in sc1 some units like the vulture had a 75% bonus damage .
But you shouldn't look it that way. It is not total damage vs all units, but just vs light, which means they are dealing on all units 8 damage, except vs light, where they are dealing +8, which is 100% more damage, not 50%.

If you are really looking that way, then you shouldn't say that they have 50% bonus, but 50% damage reduction vs all other unit types except light, get it? Or not? Their total damage is 8, not 16. Bonus makes them do 16, which is 8+8. They are dealing 200% damage on light, and normal 100% damage on everything else.

Perfecttear
01-18-2010, 05:45 PM
@Ramiz , ok in that case i'm wondering why the maximum damage reduction is only 50% in sc2, where in sc1 it was 75%. It seems there are much less hard counters in sc2, than in sc1.

mr. peasant
01-18-2010, 06:12 PM
@Ramiz , ok in that case i'm wondering why the maximum damage reduction is only 50% in sc2, where in sc1 it was 75%. It seems there are much less hard counters in sc2, than in sc1.

The answer for this should be immediately obvious; it's all in the math. Since SC2's damage system has the unit in question dealing its lower damage to the majority of units, this would consequently lead them to be overly specialized if they dealt 4x more damage against their favored target. You'd either be way overpowered against those targets or severely underpowered against everything else, if not both.

Perfecttear
01-18-2010, 06:17 PM
But howcome this was not an problem in sc1?

Kimera757
01-18-2010, 06:20 PM
And i also wonder, why is the limits in sc2 exactly 50-50% (normal-bonus damage), there could be atleast 2 or 3 units that could have more bonus damage than normal one, or does Blizzad have a secret rule, than bonus damage can not be more than 50% of the whole damage. Just wondering :p

The cobra used to deal 10 (+25 vs armored), a bonus 250% greater than the base damage.

SaharaDrac
01-18-2010, 06:26 PM
Reapers have a 100% bonus damage vs. light units. Things in parentheses are multiplied wholly by the factor outside of it.

The_Blade
01-18-2010, 06:30 PM
But howcome this was not an problem in sc1?

Because units are not specialized but "specialized". If you look closely, a unit like siege tank, not only gains a bonus against its favourite targets (large), but also a lesser one against medium. Then it comes down to small targets, with a big penalty.

Triceron
01-18-2010, 06:43 PM
There were only 3 units in the game that did concussive damage, which were the Vulture, Ghost and Firebat.

Concussive damage was only affected by Ultralisks. Archons took full damage because of shields. The only other case was Ghosts vs any heavy air, which isn't even a point worth making. Even if ghosts weren't concussive damage, no one would've used them as air counters.

Perfecttear
01-18-2010, 06:43 PM
Reapers have a 100% bonus damage vs. light units. Things in parentheses are multiplied wholly by the factor outside of it.
I know that;)
By 50% percent i meant 50% of it's whole damage. Example- the marauder deals 24 damage (12+12vs armored), so 50% procent of it's whole damage or half is a bonus one.

So i'm wondering why there are no units currently in the game, that do more bonus damage than their normal one.

And i'm also wondering whyt there are not many units that have more than one different bonus damage, you could say that every unit in sc1 had 2 bonuses ;)

For example i would like for the marauder to have 8+ 16 vs armored instead of 12+12vsA, and lose it's gas cost.:p

rcp181
01-18-2010, 06:48 PM
There's really not much of a difference between the SC damage system and the current SC2 system, other than that there are more classifications for unit types to allow for more specific bonuses.

As far as counters go, double damage is a TON and should be plenty >.< If a double damage bonus doesn't make the unit a strong counter, it probably sucks to begin with :P

Overall I think your suggestion of these huge bonuses makes the unit too situational. I agree with what others have said before that Starcraft has a nice balance where counters are significant, but a good player can still overcome the counters.

I'm sure they could add a separate bonus for a different type if they want if they find it necessary.

Triceron
01-18-2010, 07:22 PM
SC1's Concussive system was mostly fubar from a bonus damage PoV. Vultures, Firebats and Ghosts weren't getting a damage boost out of it. They didn't specialize against small units as much as they were nerfed against large units. Their basic damage is pretty low. Matched up against large units, the damage is practically non-existent. The only balancing factor was that these units weren't used in that type of matchup, so it didn't matter that they did 1 pt of damage vs ultras.

For units to have a high specialization, they would end up with very low raw damage, limiting their use in every other non-counter situation. There's no reason to do this, therefore there is no reason to have a bonus greater than its basic damage.

Why do we want marauders doing 8 +16vArmor? Are they doing too much damage against small units? No. Does this justify them losing their gas cost? No.

rcp181
01-18-2010, 08:06 PM
SC1's Concussive system was mostly fubar from a bonus damage PoV. Vultures, Firebats and Ghosts weren't getting a damage boost out of it. They didn't specialize against small units as much as they were nerfed against large units.This is just perspective. If vultures did 10 damage normally and got a +5/+10 damage bonus against med/light it would be the same thing.

MattII
01-18-2010, 08:07 PM
So i'm wondering why there are no units currently in the game, that do more bonus damage than their normal one.

In effect there is, it's called the Baneling, which does 15 damage, +20 vs. light, or 80 vs. buildings.

Nicol Bolas
01-18-2010, 08:07 PM
But howcome this was not an problem in sc1?

Who says it isn't?

By only having 3 kinds of damage (normal, concussive, and explosive), you make it very difficult to have units that are semi-specialized against one kind of unit, but not utterly useless against another.

Look at Firebats. They do half damage against Medium targets. They get to do full damage vs. Protoss shields, but so does everything else. Against Large units, it's utterly useless.

A more legitimately useful Firebat might do something like 8+8 vs. Small. But you can't change how all concussive attacks work without screwing up Vultures and Ghosts.

To some degree, explosive damage makes sense and worked out OK. Large units tend to have more Hp than small units. So a Siege Tank only doing 37 damage to a Marine is doing lots of damage. Disproportionately more in fact than it does to a Dragoon. But concussive damage was a way to automatically cause crippling overspecialization.


By 50% percent i meant 50% of it's whole damage. Example- the marauder deals 24 damage (12+12vs armored), so 50% procent of it's whole damage or half is a bonus one.

You're really thinking of this as backwards. Bonus damage isn't damage "reduction". There is simply base damage and damage bonus. There is no "whole damage." Reapers don't do 8x2 -4 vs. Armored. They do 4x2 +4 vs. light.

As for why it is you don't see units that do more in bonus damage than they do in base damage, that's just how the balance worked out so far. Remember, these bonuses are arbitrary, so they serve whatever the needs are of the balance at the time.


And i'm also wondering whyt there are not many units that have more than one different bonus damage, you could say that every unit in sc1 had 2 bonuses

You could, but that would be stupid. They simply removed the "medium" class, thus making it irrelevant. All units are either light or armored, so a unit with a bonus to one just does base damage to the other. What would it mean to have a unit that does 8 +4 vs. Light +8 vs. Armored? That's the same as 12 + 4 vs. Armored.

The only way you could meaningfully have multiple bonuses is if you use bonuses outside of the Light/Armored dichotomy. Like you could have 8 +4 vs. Light +8 vs. Biological. Of course, since all but maybe 3 Light units are Biological, you may as well just say 8 +8 vs. Biological. Or 8 +8 vs. Light.

Remember: the purpose of damage bonuses is to give a unit a specific kind of flavor.

SaharaDrac
01-18-2010, 09:30 PM
I know that;)
By 50% percent i meant 50% of it's whole damage. Example- the marauder deals 24 damage (12+12vs armored), so 50% procent of it's whole damage or half is a bonus one.

So i'm wondering why there are no units currently in the game, that do more bonus damage than their normal one.

And i'm also wondering whyt there are not many units that have more than one different bonus damage, you could say that every unit in sc1 had 2 bonuses ;)

For example i would like for the marauder to have 8+ 16 vs armored instead of 12+12vsA, and lose it's gas cost.:p


But the marauders whole damage is 12, not 24. The second 12 is bonus damage against a specific unit type, therefore a 100% bonus. You can't call the extra 12 damage it gets against special units part of its "whole damage". It does 12 against everything in the game, except for the one unit type it gets it's 100% bonus against...

Triceron
01-18-2010, 09:47 PM
This is just perspective. If vultures did 10 damage normally and got a +5/+10 damage bonus against med/light it would be the same thing.

Just correcting your math, but it'd be 5 damage, +5vMed +15vLight. That's overly specialized, and if you think about how fast a vulture attacks, the damage is everything but normal...

trace wm
01-18-2010, 09:57 PM
I'm under the impression that the new damage system will DECREASE specialization a degree, because units will deal their base amount no matter what they're targeting.

case in point: the Vulture. If it was directly ported to SC2, it'd have to have a serious damage nerf to stop it flying around the map deal 20 points of death to everything in its path. Whereas in SC1 it takes a bit of focus fire just to kill one dragoon or cannon, or even Hydralisk.

Perfecttear
01-18-2010, 10:14 PM
The cobra used to deal 10 (+25 vs armored), a bonus 250% greater than the base damage.
Heh and i thought the marauder was op vs armored:p
Anyways, it wouldn't hurt to have one or two more heavily specialized units in the game, to add some more gameplay potential.

rcp181
01-18-2010, 10:26 PM
Just correcting your math, but it'd be 5 damage, +5vMed +15vLight. That's overly specialized, and if you think about how fast a vulture attacks, the damage is everything but normal...Wait, what? Vultures do a minimum of 10 damage before armor penalties. 20 damage normally, and 50% against large units = 10 damage.
I'm under the impression that the new damage system will DECREASE specialization a degree, because units will deal their base amount no matter what they're targeting.

case in point: the Vulture. If it was directly ported to SC2, it'd have to have a serious damage nerf to stop it flying around the map deal 20 points of death to everything in its path. Whereas in SC1 it takes a bit of focus fire just to kill one dragoon or cannon, or even Hydralisk.The system wouldn't change the extremes at all with the correct numbers. It would just remove the intermediate damage bonus you get from a classification between small and large. Excluding medium, a 10 vulture with +10 light would be the same as a 20 damage concussive vulture.

A bonus damage system doesn't change anything compared to a damage penalty system.

What changes things is how now there are only two main classifications, light and armored. Although there are now more damage bonuses against special traits like bio/psionic/massive.

Triceron
01-18-2010, 11:07 PM
Concussive damage

Small - 100%
Medium - 50%
Large - 25%

Vulture damage is 20, meaning it does 10 to medium and 5 to large. Since we're talking in the PoV of bonuses, we're going to assume the lowest amount as its 'Normal' damage and apply bonuses on top, thus 5 +5/+15.

rcp181
01-18-2010, 11:18 PM
Weird, I guess SC wiki needs an update >.< Didn't look right so I just logged on to check and it is only 5 damage :P

Did that change in a patch at some point a long time ago? Even the old Battle.net compendium on Blizzard's site says 50%

Triceron
01-18-2010, 11:23 PM
I think you were reading the graph wrong, using the horizontal percentages instead of the vertical ones.

rcp181
01-18-2010, 11:25 PM
Oh yeah I was looking at explosive :s doh

Operatoring
01-19-2010, 12:53 AM
Uh no, Reapers have (4+4vs light) x2, meaning that 50% of their total damage is a bonus one . Like i said, i haven't yet seen a unit which damage bonus would be more than 50% procent of their whole damage, so i'm wondering why is this the case, exspecialy because in sc1 some units like the vulture had a 75% bonus damage .
4 is the damage.
4 is the bonus.
This is a 100% increase in damage.

This is how the math is done in most Blizzard game.

Diablo II. When you get a weapon modifier with 100%+ damage, you take the the Dagger (1-4 Damage), and than double it. In the end the damage is 2-8.

KadajSouba
01-19-2010, 01:50 AM
I dont understand why you keep talking about damage reduction... when in sc2 damage ain't reduced. Its amplified with the bonus system. Every unit deals the same amount of damage to their targets... except for the ones that are marked as bonus. In that case they deal more damage.


You're really thinking of this as backwards. Bonus damage isn't damage "reduction". There is simply base damage and damage bonus. There is no "whole damage." Reapers don't do 8x2 -4 vs. Armored. They do 4x2 +4 vs. light.

What he said...

Personally I like this new system.

Norfindel
01-19-2010, 07:35 AM
Well i was thinking about the sc2 damage system, and i noticed something.- Units are less specialized in sc2 than in sc1. In sc2 the bonus damage is restricted to a max 50% of the units whole damage, where in sc1 the max was 75%.
It wasn't. The 75% was a penalty. The units with Concussive attacks dealed only 25% dmg to Large units, and their attacks were useless. The equivalent of a SC1 Ghost in SC2 would have an attack of roughly 2.5 (+7.5 vs Armored). The Vulture would have double that: 5 (+15 vs Armored). The base attacks suck.

SC2's damage system doesn't really limit anything, you could have +500% if you wanted. They just decided to not use larger bonuses, as to avoid making units too useless vs something, or to make some units anihilate others too easily.

.